Most guys in 90s had Stockton > Isiah, so Stockton/Malone is like having Isiah/Duncan

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[SIZE=4]Lebron can't carry weak help over top teams, even with a top team defense:[/SIZE]


[indent][B]09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic[/B]'............ 18 on 38%.......... #3 team defense[/indent]




[SIZE=4]MJ could though - he always carried weak help over top teams, even with weaker team defenses than Lebron's Cavs had:[/SIZE]


[indent][B]89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs[/B]'.............. 15 on 40%........ #11 team defense
[B]96' Pippen' vs #2 SRS Sonics[/B]............ 16 on 34%.......... #1 team defense
[B]97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat[/B]'.............. 16 on 39%.......... #4 team defense
[B]98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers[/B]............ 17 on 39%.......... #9 team defense
[B]98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz[/B]'............... 16 on 41%.......... #9 team defense

[B]96-98' Pippen entire playoffs[/B]............. 18 on 41%.......... #1, #4, #9 defenses[/indent]

[QUOTE=3ba11;15020926][indent]1988

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1989

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1990

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1991

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing


1992

Stockton.... 2nd Team All-NBA
Isiaih......... nothing

* stockton was also All-Defense every year[/indent]



^^^ Stockton was considered a phenom for averaging literally 14-15 APG for 5 straight seasons from 88' to 92'... During this period, he averaged 16/14 and 2.9 SPG with 37% on threes and 52% overall during this period.

So again, Stockton was considered better than Isiah, which means the duo of Stockton/Malone should be considered like Isiah/Duncan.. Plus they had Hornacek at 3rd option and a defensive core of Ostertag, Russell and Shandon Anderson (plus Stockton and Malone were All-Defense).. It was a stacked team.[/QUOTE]

I literally just said Isiah stopped making all-NBA team because of the Bird comment. He was either first or 2nd team all-nba 5 straight years before that. Was he somehow worse from 88-90 while winning titles and FMVP? If your argument is that Stockton was better after like 92 when Isiah slowed down and then retired from injury? Yeah, ok. [B]EDIT: I realized that I cut out the part about Bird. But Isiah not making the all-NBA team after 87 was politics, not basketball. Same reason Stockton got the Dream Team nod over him in 92.
[/B]
But was his career considered better by the time the 90s rolled around, as in ranked higher on the GOAT list? No he wasn't. If you're boiling it down to high assist numbers, then he would have gotten first team all-nba over Price in 93( he averaged 12 to Price's 9). Which is funny coming from you, because 1) you heavily focus on scoring and Isiah was clearly a better scorer, and 2) you use Stockton's assist numbers as proof of superiority but you've called him a 'ball dominator' multiple times in other threads in the same light as Magic and Luka. You don't use that term as complimentary, so there's no reason why it would be a talking point to be better than Isiah now. I keep all the receipts for the bullshit you say. Stockton shot 52% but he wasn't the teams main focal point on offense and picked his spots. If he was on the Pistons they wouldn't have won, because Stockton was never that level of scorer and that Detroit team needed it. Stockton isn't going off for 25 points in the finals on a busted ankle. Or are you going to downplay that aspect now for the sake of this particular discussion, even if that runs contradictory to thousands of your other posts touting the importance of scoring ability?

BTW... Isiah himself was capable of 14 assists( 85) but also could score 21ppg to go with it. Stockton was never that level of threat as a scorer/passer.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15020928]Jordan lost 3 years in a row to a team whose best player wasn’t even All-NBA? Embarrassing[/QUOTE]


For 5 straight seasons from 2006 to 2010, Lebron's Cavs lost to worse opponents than the Bad Boys.. This is despite having better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more/better scoring options.. The Cavs had a 20k scorer at 3rd option that once outscored Lebron in a head-to-head playoff series (Jamison).. They also had the East all-star center, a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition, and an all-star spacer that added 21 wins in 09'.

To summarize, Lebron had better casts than the 1st three-peat Bulls but still lost to weaker opponents than the Bad Boys.. Otoh, Jordan carried 15 on 40% from his 2nd option over the #1 SRS team in the 89' Playoffs, aka he carried weak help over a top team, which Lebron has never done..

For example, Lebron failed to carry 18 on 38% from Mo over the #4 SRS Magic in 2009 despite having the #3 defense - MJ always won in this scenario - aka he always beat top teams with 18 on 38% from Pippen and a top defense (see previous post).. The reality is that Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. Lebron also choked in winnable series like 26 on 35% with 5 TO's to lose in 7 games in 08', and then the 2010 meltdown as an OKC-level favorite.

[QUOTE=SouBeachTalents;15020928]Jordan lost 3 years in a row to a team whose best player wasn’t even All-NBA? Embarrassing[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

[QUOTE=Full Court;15020930]Big fan of Stockton, but he has no case for being ranked over Isiah. Stockton is up there with the greatest seconds of all time, but that's a level below the great firsts.[/QUOTE]

I feel like with the introduction of analytics, it has made a lot of people look at Isiah in a negative light. He wasn't as efficient as some of the other all-time great point guards and he didn't bring much to the defensive end.

Peak Isiah was clearly the better player, but I still give Stockton the edge in terms of overall career. His longevity edge is too hard to ignore and it's not like peak Isiah was something out of this world, when Detroit won back to back titles he was a borderline top 10 player in the league.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;15020935]I literally just said Isiah stopped making all-NBA team because of the Bird comment. He was either first or 2nd team all-nba 5 straight years before that. Was he somehow worse from 88-90 while winning titles and FMVP? If your argument is that Stockton was better after like 92 when Isiah slowed down and then retired from injury? Yeah, ok. [B]EDIT: I realized that I cut out the part about Bird. But Isiah not making the all-NBA team after 87 was politics, not basketball. Same reason Stockton got the Dream Team nod over him in 92.
[/B]
But was his career considered better by the time the 90s rolled around, as in ranked higher on the GOAT list? No he wasn't. If you're boiling it down to high assist numbers, then he would have gotten first team all-nba over Price in 93( he averaged 12 to Price's 9). Which is funny coming from you, because 1) you heavily focus on scoring and Isiah was clearly a better scorer, and 2) you use Stockton's assist numbers as proof of superiority but you've called him a 'ball dominator' multiple times in other threads in the same light as Magic and Luka. You don't use that term as complimentary, so there's no reason why it would be a talking point to be better than Isiah now. I keep all the receipts for the bullshit you say. Stockton shot 52% but he wasn't the teams main focal point on offense and picked his spots. If he was on the Pistons they wouldn't have won, because Stockton was never that level of scorer and that Detroit team needed it. Stockton isn't going off for 25 points in the finals on a busted ankle. Or are you going to downplay that aspect now for the sake of this particular discussion, even if that runs contradictory to thousands of your other posts touting the importance of scoring ability?

BTW... Isiah himself was capable of 14 assists( 85) but also could score 21ppg to go with it. Stockton was never that level of threat as a scorer/passer.[/QUOTE]


In addition to missing All-NBA, Isiah was a bad defender compared to a perennial All-Defensive player and goat defender Stockton... Baron Davis describes here:

[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yAn8uLhYjO8&pp=ygUhQmFyb24gRGF2aXMgdGFsa3MgYWJvdXQgU3RvY2t0b24g0gcJCcEJAYcqIYzv[/url]

Payton said Stockton was the best PG ever and this opinion isn't uncommon... The goat PG's are Magic, Stockton, Isiah, and Curry, but Stockton was just unlucky for facing "Mr. Finals" in the Finals, so he's ringless.

[QUOTE=3ba11;15020940]In addition to missing All-NBA, Isiah was a bad defender compared to Stockton, as Baron Davis describes here:

[url]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yAn8uLhYjO8&pp=ygUhQmFyb24gRGF2aXMgdGFsa3MgYWJvdXQgU3RvY2t0b24g0gcJCcEJAYcqIYzv[/url]

Payton said Stockton was the best PG ever and this opinion isn't uncommon... Goat PG's are Magic, Stockton, Isiah, and Curry, but Stockton was just unlucky for facing Mr. Finals each time he made the Finals.[/QUOTE]

Stockton was tough and gritty but was also known as dirty, and got high steal numbers more because of anticipation to play the lanes than being some in your shorts defender. Really, unless you're talking about Gary Payton or Jason Kidd level PGs at the top of the key, the defensive difference between Isiah and Stockton wasn't going to be the deciding factor as to who was better or who takes their team further. Stockton's limitations as a scorer probably prevented the Jazz from more deep playoff runs. Frankly, it was probably the difference in why they couldn't win one of those finals series, especially 98.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15020939][B][SIZE=5]I feel like with the introduction of analytics[/SIZE][/B], it has made a lot of people look at Isiah in a negative light. He wasn't as efficient as some of the other all-time great point guards and he didn't bring much to the defensive end.

Peak Isiah was clearly the better player, but I still give Stockton the edge in terms of overall career. His longevity edge is too hard to ignore and it's not like peak Isiah was something out of this world, when Detroit won back to back titles he was a borderline top 10 player in the league.[/QUOTE]

Basketball is way too nuanced of a sport to be able to interpret solely with analytics. I trust the eye test over analytics any day.

Isiah may have been borderline top ten, but that was during a time when the league was the most stacked it probably ever was. His competition for top dog was Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, etc. That's a murderer's row if there ever was one.

[QUOTE=Full Court;15020958]Basketball is way too nuanced of a sport to be able to interpret solely with analytics. I trust the eye test over analytics any day.

Isiah may have been borderline top ten, but that was during a time when the league was the most stacked it probably ever was. His competition for top dog was Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, etc. That's a murderer's row if there ever was one.[/QUOTE]

Bird missed the '89 season.

I'll give Isiah this.....in the 80s the title picture was dominated by bigger players. Kareem, Moses, Mchale, Parish, even Bird at 6'9 and Magic as a 6'8 unicorn at PG being able to see over the defense. Isiah was the least ideal player archetype to play a significant role on a championship team at that point, leading a more perimeter-centric offensive attack since the Pistons had no comparable post presence on the scale of some of the aforementioned bigs.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15020960]Bird missed the '89 season.[/QUOTE]

Correct.

Pistons under Zeke's leadership went to 3 straight finals and were a c*nt hair away from 3-peating.

Zeke's ability to dominate offensively and close out a game puts him above Stockton for me.

Im not Entirely sure I’ve ever heard anyone say out loud they thought Stockton was better than Isiah. I’ve read it on the Internet, but I’ve never heard those words. Whatever the truth of it is the idea that most thought it in the 90s is on the short list of the least true things you’ve ever said. And that’s saying something.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855;15021077]Im not Entirely sure I’ve ever heard anyone say out loud they thought Stockton was better than Isiah. I’ve read it on the Internet, but I’ve never heard those words. Whatever the truth of it is the idea that most thought it in the 90s is on the short list of the least true things you’ve ever said. And that’s saying something.[/QUOTE]
Tbf this applies to virtually everything OP says, both never hearing it said in person and it being one of the least true things ever said.

As a "third option" Jeff Hornacek gets a bit underlooked. He was a playoff riser during his prime, very efficient and lights out from 16 feet and out (took a lot of long jumpers). Like Stockton, though, I thought he could've been more aggressive.