If we're talking prime for prime, I'd probably disagree, but you could make a valid argument for Hornacek. But if we're talking the Utah version, absolutely indefensibly stupid to claim that version of Hornacek is better than peak Klay.
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If we're talking prime for prime, I'd probably disagree, but you could make a valid argument for Hornacek. But if we're talking the Utah version, absolutely indefensibly stupid to claim that version of Hornacek is better than peak Klay.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15020776]Got some data to back up your stuff? Or is this just a “trust me bro”[/QUOTE]
[video=youtube;y589G84w03E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y589G84w03E[/video]
[QUOTE=tpols;15020789]No its not just scoring. Jeff was better in almost every advanced stat. Way better playmaker and dynamic offensive player while also shooting more efficiently than Klay. Klay is a better defender which lessens the gap but perhaps not by enough to overtake him. Hornacek was an above average defender as well and Klays defense is vastly overrated. He was a basic man defender with average help defense and defensive rebounding. Even then he wasnt even the best man defender on his own team. That would be iggy or dray.
So what youre saying doesn't make sense. Its impossible for somebody to beat you in every advanced stat and you're not even close to them. Doesn't add up.[/QUOTE]
Advanced stats dont ever factor defense perfectly. Klay made an all defensive team, Jeff did not. Klay received all defensive team votes in 6 seasons to Jeff's 1. Klay made 2 all nba teams to none for Jeff. Klay has received mvp votes in a season, Jeff? Nope. Jeff won't ever see the hall of fame while Klay is likely to hes on the short list of greatest shooters to ever live. Klay has somewhere around double the 30 point games Jeff has in his career. Jeff had a single 40 point game in his career, Klay probably has at minimum of 10 times that amount. 50 point games? Jeff? None 60 point games? Jeff? None. Scoring isnt the end all be all but the other things Jeff may do arent near enough to make up this gap in both scoring and defense. And this is coming from someone who wished someone would come off the bench and clothesline Klay everytime he played lol. You can t let numbers form your opinion about a guy you may have not seen. Again Jeff was no pushover he was a very good player but Klay is at least a whole tier above him as a role player/2nd option. Klay on those Jazz is probably enough to beat the bulls.
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Advanced stats dont ever factor defense perfectly. Klay made an all defensive team, Jeff did not.
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Advanced stats absolutely do and can highlight defensive impact. There are tons of advanced stats out there centered around +/- and its regressions that measure impact a player has when on the floor in terms of the scoreboard which allows us to separate the Dwayne wades from the Zach lavines even if their stat line was similar.
And fact is Hornacek in his prime not only was way craftier with the ball in his hand, he outshot Klay from an era where shooting %s were lower. Outrebounded him as well, the only thing Klay has is slightly boost in man defense.
To act like Jeff has no argument is beyond absurd. Hornacek was closer to Manu than Klay.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020808]
Klay made 2 all nba teams to none for Jeff.
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You're forgetting that true franchise players like Curry or Love are dominant elite producers, so they make All-NBA without any playoff success... Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - [I]they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA[/I].. And no one got more winning spotlight than Klay - he never produced anywhere near Jeff Hornacek, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Contrastingly, Jeff didn't get this benefit of getting carried to titles early in his career like Klay, and making All-NBA thereafter.. If Klay was barely scraping 20 ppg while losing on the Wizards, he might not make a single all-star game - the numbers show that he's a 1-dimensional player on offense that doesn't get to the line or pass.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15020785]So the end all be all criteria of "[B]scoring .matters most" [/B].....[B]"uh uh eye test"[/B]....[B]"uhh uhh rangz"[/B] goes out the window depending on which way we want to bend? Because I guarantee Klay annihilates Hornacek as a scorer without looking at a single stat. And as a defender? Kinda laughable comparison and that's not to say Jeff was some pushover, he was a very good player but Klay was a borderline great player even if we're being modest. Amd i actively disliked both players but by the standards the actors in this thread use in other threads, there's no way to have this conversation and put Jeff anywhere near Klay.[/QUOTE]
This post should be banworthy
[QUOTE=tpols;15020816]Advanced stats absolutely do and can highlight defensive impact. There are tons of advanced stats out there centered around +/- and its regressions that measure impact a player has when on the floor in terms of the scoreboard which allows us to separate the Dwayne wades from the Zach lavines even if their stat line was similar.
And fact is Hornacek in his prime not only was way craftier with the ball in his hand, he outshot Klay from an era where shooting %s were lower. Outrebounded him as well, the only thing Klay has is slightly boost in man defense.
To act like Jeff has no argument is beyond absurd. Hornacek was closer to Manu than Klay.[/QUOTE]
We don't need advanced stats to tell us Dwade is better than Lavine, just eyes wtf? Same applies for Klay vs Jeff. Klay is a clearly superior player. One of the greatest shooters to ever live. Jeff being more crafty with the ball still doesn't outweigh klays superiority as a shooter, scorer or defender. Its too overwhelming a comparison. In what world did he outshoot Klay? He posts a higher fg% for his career taking 2 3s a game while klay takes nearly 8 and has taken as many as 10 a game for a season. What big games can you offer me from Jeff Hornacek that rival Klays game 6? Or any of the times hes shown up big in the postseason? Klay was a bonafied no.2 that on any given night could score as much as Kobe. I never liked the guy but you gotta put some respect on his name.
[QUOTE=3ba11;15020951]You're forgetting that true franchise players like Curry or Love are dominant elite producers, so they make All-NBA without any playoff success... Otoh, secondary producers like Klay or Pippen needed titles to make All-NBA, similar to Manu, Parker, Pau, Dumars or Worthy - [I]they needed winning spotlight to be seen as All-NBA[/I].. And no one got more winning spotlight than Klay - he never produced anywhere near Jeff Hornacek, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. Contrastingly, Jeff didn't get this benefit of getting carried to titles early in his career like Klay, and making All-NBA thereafter.. If Klay was barely scraping 20 ppg while losing on the Wizards, he might not make a single all-star game - the numbers show that he's a 1-dimensional player on offense that doesn't get to the line or pass.[/QUOTE]
Until that stupid moment you realize Klay made all nba as well as being voted an allstar in 2015, months before the warriors win a title. Pippen was an allstat in 90, made all-defense in 91, once again some time before they ever won a chip. Sounds like your narrative sucks again. And FYI these guys more likely begin to make all nba and all def etc because of their gradual improvement to that level rather than because whatever star you're sucking off won a title. Scottie started making all defensive teams after the world saw his work on magic and other stars. He became all nba once he graduated to being a 20 a game guy. His numbers increased in nearly every aspect during the transition to being recognized as an all nba level player.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021004]This post should be banworthy[/QUOTE]
Pot, meet kettle. I dont even know why they ever allow you back to be honest.
Now show us drays stats. Epm 4.3, 5.6, 4.5 from 15-17. He’s the true sidekick and easily top 15 guy in the league and all-nba lvl those 3 years. Tbf klay was 4.4, 3.4, 2.9 those 3 years. He’s easily an all star. They don’t highly rate klay on defense either.
What the box score stats and metrics don’t show is how much klays shooting helps his teams offense. Warriors could play 3 non spacers in bogut dray iggy and still be an elite offense because of curry and klay. Hornacek was a great shooter but he was taking less than 3 3’s a game klays on a different lvl. Two guys aren’t jumping out to hornacek and leaving Malone completely open, that’s what teams did vs klay. Shooting is also why Steph’s best ever season clears Jokic by a bit even though Jokic has better stats and is a better playmaker.
[QUOTE=sdot_thadon;15021065]Pot, meet kettle. I dont even know why they ever allow you back to be honest.[/QUOTE]
What, you don't think his constant racist insults are contributing to the board? :lol
[QUOTE=NBAGOAT;15021154]Now show us drays stats. Epm 4.3, 5.6, 4.5 from 15-17. He’s the true sidekick and easily top 15 guy in the league and all-nba lvl those 3 years. Tbf klay was 4.4, 3.4, 2.9 those 3 years. He’s easily an all star. They don’t highly rate klay on defense either.
What the box score stats and metrics don’t show is how much klays shooting helps his teams offense. Warriors could play 3 non spacers in bogut dray iggy and still be an elite offense because of curry and klay. Hornacek was a great shooter but he was taking less than 3 3’s a game klays on a different lvl. Two guys aren’t jumping out to hornacek and leaving Malone completely open, that’s what teams did vs klay. Shooting is also why Steph’s best ever season clears Jokic by a bit even though Jokic has better stats and is a better playmaker.[/QUOTE]
Yes. There is literally no data that shows Klay being an elite defender.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021187]Yes. There is literally no data that shows Klay being an elite defender.[/QUOTE]
Just look at the 7:08 mark in the vid I posted. The data is there as a man defender.
You should be happy Curry had a teammate who always guarded the opponents best offensive perimeter player. He hid a lot of Curry's weaknesses as a defender.
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers;15021189]Just look at the 7:08 mark in the vid I posted. The data is there as a man defender.
You should be happy Curry had a teammate who always guarded the opponents best offensive perimeter player. He hid a lot of Curry's weaknesses as a defender.[/QUOTE]
I’m not watching one second of some nerdy ass kid who never played ball and has KG in his top 10 of all time. That dude is ass and doesn’t know shit about basketball.
Post the stats here. I’m not watching low iq clown bball youtube videos.
[QUOTE=warriorfan;15021200]I’m not watching one second of some nerdy ass kid who never played ball and has KG in his top 10 of all time. That dude is ass and doesn’t know shit about basketball.
Post the stats here. I’m not watching low iq clown bball youtube videos.[/QUOTE]
It's not even his data, but he puts it in the vid.
But we all know you have a history of shitting on every teammate Curry has ever had. You have no objectivity in these convos.