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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Irving puts up empty stats on a bad team? That's how you differentiate him from Wall?
Idk about that one broham.
Irving, to me, has shown a far more advanced grasp of the game than Wall has.[/QUOTE]
Wizards have been playing around .500 ball with Wall playing. They are better than their record shows.
I disagree that Irving has a far more advanced grasp of the game. Wall is a much better passer / floor general. He also has a much better grasp of defense than Irving. Irving is the better scorer... that's about it.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=plUto or bUst]Wizards have been playing around .500 ball with Wall playing. They are better than their record shows.
I disagree that Irving has a far more advanced grasp of the game. Wall is a much better passer / floor general. He also has a much better grasp of defense than Irving. Irving is the better scorer... that's about it.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty evident when you watch them. Irving is more calculating and methodical while Wall is most effective at break neck speeds. He often is ineffective in halfcourt settings.
We aren't talking about defense or scoring, just feel for the game, which Irving demonstrates and Wall struggles with....
When Wall gets the Wiz into the playoffs I will give him props and upgrade my assessment of him. Irving needs to make the playoffs as well before I take him seriously as one of the best at his position.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]It's pretty evident when you watch them. Irving is more calculating and methodical while Wall is most effective at break neck speeds. He often is ineffective in halfcourt settings.
We aren't talking about defense or scoring, just feel for the game, which Irving demonstrates and Wall struggles with....
When Wall gets the Wiz into the playoffs I will give him props and upgrade my assessment of him. Irving needs to make the playoffs as well before I take him seriously as one of the best at his position.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't a "better feel for the game" equate to playing better defense or being a better passer? Really, also this is is a vague explanation for why you feel Irving is better when you don't really have anything to back it up with. It's fine if you value Irving's scoring and shooting more than you do Wall's attributes, but at least be up front about it.
And it really isn't Wall's fault the team went 5-28 before he was even able to make it on the court. Right now the Wizards are 18-14 with Wall in the line-up, extrapolate that over the 65 games the Wizards have played so far this season, and that would put them 5th in the Eastern Conference.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Okay, but if you can't get your team into the playoffs in the East are you really doing something?
I see stats and potential but I don't see the "it" factor. The aspect of willing your team to victories that every great player has.
In other words, I wouldn't give Wall a max deal.
*for the stans: I could be wrong, Wall is definitely a player that could become great, but personally I don't think he will be as good as ppl have been saying since he was in HS.[/QUOTE]
you stick rose on a team that started 5-28 without him and they aren't making the playoffs. nobody is coming back from that deficit
Wall vs Irving is such a headache to discuss because they're pretty much good for opposite reasons. Both have great handles but even in that category they use their dribble so differently
Irving
-shooting
-scoring
-poise
Wall
-Athleticism
-court vision
-defense
They play the same position but it's apples and oranges :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Rubio2Gasol]Imagine Wall in OKC tho :eek:[/QUOTE]
**** that imagine Durant coming home to DC to play with Wall and Beal
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Wall is so overrated it is sickening.
He isnt really a vertical athlete although he has blinding speed he can't jump like Shannon Brown or Derrick Rose.
.[/QUOTE]
:wtf:
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zylXqcZzdw[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sISwB64oXlY[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzzyfIw5zQ[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tZrbf3AGKrA[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UpQl18OOM[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YhH9ddtJjIc[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jbYLSJ9SsM[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4CbQGBbUOw[/url]
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=alexthegr8]:wtf:
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9zylXqcZzdw[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sISwB64oXlY[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0EzzyfIw5zQ[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tZrbf3AGKrA[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r5UpQl18OOM[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YhH9ddtJjIc[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_jbYLSJ9SsM[/url]
[url]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v4CbQGBbUOw[/url][/QUOTE]
He is 6'3"-6'4" with crazy long arms and he is a beast no doubt but his dunks don't stack up to RW, Rose, and the rest of the elite pg dunkers in the past.
Elite speed but not elite bounce.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=steve]Wouldn't a "better feel for the game" equate to playing better defense or being a better passer? Really, also this is is a vague explanation for why you feel Irving is better when you don't really have anything to back it up with. It's fine if you value Irving's scoring and shooting more than you do Wall's attributes, but at least be up front about it.
And it really isn't Wall's fault the team went 5-28 before he was even able to make it on the court. Right now the Wizards are 18-14 with Wall in the line-up, extrapolate that over the 65 games the Wizards have played so far this season, and that would put them 5th in the Eastern Conference.[/QUOTE]
Since you asked for clarity I will give you some.
If put on a team with better scorers I feel Irving could be just as good at facilitating as Wall....but he has way less scoring on his team and he is BLOSSOMING as a leader and a go-to-guy. Wall dreams of the day his game gets there.
I don't blame Wall for record or anything I'm saying he has to get the Wiz to the playoffs, especially if they give him the max. If and when he does I'll definitely give him props.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=ralph_i_el]you stick rose on a team that started 5-28 without him and they aren't making the playoffs. nobody is coming back from that deficit
Wall vs Irving is such a headache to discuss because they're pretty much good for opposite reasons. Both have great handles but even in that category they use their dribble so differently
Irving
-shooting
-scoring
-poise
Wall
-Athleticism
-court vision
-defense
They play the same position but it's apples and oranges :confusedshrug:
**** that imagine Durant coming home to DC to play with Wall and Beal[/QUOTE]
I think Irving could adjust to a scoring team and flourish as a set up guy.
I do not think Wall could step up as a max deal player and hold down the fort and score 25-28 points for his team when the 2nd or 3rd option is hurt or his teal is struggling to score.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
Wall's not an elite athlete. This era has astounding athletes like D. Rose, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, young Wade, and heck, even Kevin Durant (nearly 7' tall and moves like he's 6'2). The way those guys move, and jump, is on another level entirely. The strength and agility, the fluidity..
Wall's stop-and-go isn't great, he's not especially strong, his dunks are rarely clean the way Rose's are. The only difference in athleticism between him and say Darren Collison is his height.
It's for this reason that he really can't be an elite player in the NBA with raw talent, or even raw talent + a modest amount of acquired skill (like Derrick Rose has). He pretty much needs to work on his game and improve every year, or he'll never be able to lead a team deep in the playoffs or be effective past his late-20s.
Now, his court sense and IQ *are* very good. But the idea that he beats you with physical talent is a myth I think.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
:wtf: [QUOTE=Clifton]Wall's not an elite athlete. This era has astounding athletes like D. Rose, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, young Wade, and heck, even Kevin Durant (nearly 7' tall and moves like he's 6'2). The way those guys move, and jump, is on another level entirely. The strength and agility, the fluidity..
Wall's stop-and-go isn't great, he's not especially strong, his dunks are rarely clean the way Rose's are. The only difference in athleticism between him and say Darren Collison is his height.
It's for this reason that he really can't be an elite player in the NBA with raw talent, or even raw talent + a modest amount of acquired skill (like Derrick Rose has). He pretty much needs to work on his game and improve every year, or he'll never be able to lead a team deep in the playoffs or be effective past his late-20s.
Now, his court sense and IQ *are* very good. But the idea that he beats you with physical talent is a myth I think.[/QUOTE]
His speed is elite and he's an above average jumper
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
He's often outplayed by AJ Price
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
His numbers are not great but he improves their offense and has an undeniable impact so maybe his impact can't be judged my stats.
He is very talented but until he has a reliable jumper he is not All Star quality player.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Clifton]Wall's not an elite athlete. This era has astounding athletes like D. Rose, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Russell Westbrook, young Wade, and heck, even Kevin Durant (nearly 7' tall and moves like he's 6'2). The way those guys move, and jump, is on another level entirely. The strength and agility, the fluidity..
Wall's stop-and-go isn't great, he's not especially strong, his dunks are rarely clean the way Rose's are. The only difference in athleticism between him and say Darren Collison is his height.
It's for this reason that he really can't be an elite player in the NBA with raw talent, or even raw talent + a modest amount of acquired skill (like Derrick Rose has). He pretty much needs to work on his game and improve every year, or he'll never be able to lead a team deep in the playoffs or be effective past his late-20s.
Now, his court sense and IQ *are* very good. But the idea that he beats you with physical talent is a myth I think.[/QUOTE]
Wall's arguably the faster player in the league and has a 39" vert.... he's also very long and tall for a PG..... his speed alone is elite..... how is he not an elite athlete???
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]He is 6'3"-6'4" with crazy long arms and he is a beast no doubt but his dunks don't stack up to RW, Rose, and the rest of the elite pg dunkers in the past.
Elite speed but not elite bounce.[/QUOTE]
omg how is he not up there with a healthy rose and westbrook are you kidding me???
the man measured with a 39" vert at the combine....
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjV-tWrZJRQ[/url] look at 1:00
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE]Wall's not an elite athlete.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8355274#post8355274"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8355274#post8355274[/URL]
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
John Wall is not an elite athlete?
[IMG]http://tinyurl.com/cy7pl5x[/IMG]
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
Wall has averaged nearly a block a game for the last two seasons. How could a pg do that if he wasn't an elite athlete?
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]If put on a team with better scorers I feel Irving could be just as good at facilitating as Wall....but he has way less scoring on his team and he is BLOSSOMING as a leader and a go-to-guy. Wall dreams of the day his game gets there.[/QUOTE]
Kyrie Irving has six 10+ assist games in his entire career so far (that's 100 total games). John Wall matched that in the 14th game of his career. They are not on the same level when it comes to facilitating.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=steve]Kyrie Irving has six 10+ assist games in his entire career so far (that's 100 total games). John Wall matched that in the 14th game of his career. They are not on the same level when it comes to facilitating.[/QUOTE]
Kyrie scores more - he doesn't look for assists. It's natural - hes an elite scorer
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Rubio2Gasol]Kyrie scores more - he doesn't look for assists. It's natural - hes an elite scorer[/QUOTE]
And I would never suggest that Wall is close to Irving as a scorer, it cuts both ways. Irving just hasn't shown that he's close to being an elite passer.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
Im telling y'all once Wall gets an efficient jumpshot, this kid will be unstoppable.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
Wall is the fastest player with the ball in his hands in the league BY FAR. Not an elite athlete? You can't be serious.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=rknine15]omg how is he not up there with a healthy rose and westbrook are you kidding me???
the man measured with a 39" vert at the combine....
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjV-tWrZJRQ[/url] look at 1:00[/QUOTE]
He's got great explosiveness but not in the same class as RW, Rose, Francis, etc.
It's clear to me when I watch them. Wall has SG height so technically if he was the best athlete he'd be the best above the rim pg but he isn't.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[quote]Wall's arguably the faster player in the league and has a 39" vert.... he's also very long and tall for a PG..... his speed alone is elite..... how is he not an elite athlete???[/quote]
Everyone has a 40 inch vert. Not all 40 inch verts are equal. And being fast won't help you in conference Finals and Finals play; I'd take James Harden's deceptive quickness over Wall's end to end "speed" any day.
Athleticism is a total body thing. It has to do with changing directions on a dime, in mid-air, with grace, fluidity, and ease. MJ's "speed" and "vertical" didn't help him become the GOAT; Larry Bird and Magic were able to be GOATs or near it without those things. What MJ had was body control, quickness, and strength - and I'm not saying he had muscles that popped out of his body like Dwight Howard I'm saying he was *strong*, like his wrists, and hands, and hips, and back, and legs were stronger than yours; you could knock him around in midair all kinds of ways and it wouldn't faze him. That's athleticism on the level of Rose, Lebron, Carter; compared to them, Wall is only fast. This isn't a track meet it's a basketball game and in serious NBA play, you spend very little time running 40 yd dashes up and down the court, esp. in this era.
Again, because of that speed, and otherwise athleticism that is very above average (not elite), especially for his size, combined with his instincts as a point guard (which are also above average but not elite), he can become a top ten or fifteen player one day. But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.
The only reason I'm harping on this is because I was a Wizards fan who was being told that I was getting the most athletic and otherwise talented PG prospect to come along since Magic. He was the most highly touted prospect I'd heard of since Lebron James. And he comes here and he's just a taller Rondo; not the athletic wonder I'd been promised. But a taller Rondo is a damn good asset if it develops well.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Clifton]But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.
[/QUOTE]
You're underselling Wall's athleticism. I get you in a sense, especially comparing Wall to other pgs in terms of start and stop quickness and agility. He's not Rose in that dept, probably a function of him being a little leggy ( 6'4 and he's got really long arms and legs, and that makes throttling down and cutting on a dime a little more difficult; think Randy Moss getting in and out of breaks on out routes as opposed to a Torry Holt), but I can't stamp anything else you wrote. His speed is obviously elite, his verticality is too, as evidenced by his myriad highlight reel dunks, insanely high bpg number for a pg in his career (highest of any pg in the league since he's been in the league), and his very strong per 36 rebounding numbers since he's entered the league. I'm not sure how else you would evaluate the vertical aspect of someone's game, but every objective metric would point to him being elite in that category, including his combine numbers.
In terms of going one on five and scoring every time, Wall's actually the best in the league at doing that in the open court for pgs (he scored the most fast break points of any pg in the league last year, and his finish rate around the rim was slightly better than Rose and Westbrook's in general last season.)
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
Wall is an elite athlete anyone who says otherwise is trolling.
As far as wall and irving go, i think they are pretty equal. If you have great scorers at the other positions you take Wall. If not take Irving.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Wall is so overrated it is sickening.
He isnt really a vertical athlete although he has blinding speed he can't jump like Shannon Brown or [B][SIZE="6"]Derrick Rose[/SIZE][/B].
He commits a lot of turnovers
His body language and attitude is questionable in my book....too much fruity boy dancing (just my opinion)
And despite the Wiz putting some good pieces around him ppl still blame his teammates for their sub par showing and not him....actually they are doing well considering so I retract that point.
Nene, Okafor, Beal, Webster, and Booker is a decent supporting cast in the East for a "superstar pg" though.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Again, I think Lillard and Irving are great young guards who I would pick over Wall. [B][SIZE="6"]YOU mentioned Rose in a thread I did not even plan on discussing him in.[/SIZE][/B]
I think the crux of the situation is that yoy don't like my criticism of your boyfriend Wall.
If you feel that my assertions are inaccurate or biased then feel free to refrain from replying to my posts or ignore me.
Good day to you sir.[/QUOTE]
You already discussed him. :confusedshrug:
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
John Walls 3pt% last year....OMG
.071
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Clifton]Everyone has a 40 inch vert. Not all 40 inch verts are equal. And being fast won't help you in conference Finals and Finals play; I'd take James Harden's deceptive quickness over Wall's end to end "speed" any day.
Athleticism is a total body thing. It has to do with changing directions on a dime, in mid-air, with grace, fluidity, and ease. MJ's "speed" and "vertical" didn't help him become the GOAT; Larry Bird and Magic were able to be GOATs or near it without those things. What MJ had was body control, quickness, and strength - and I'm not saying he had muscles that popped out of his body like Dwight Howard I'm saying he was *strong*, like his wrists, and hands, and hips, and back, and legs were stronger than yours; you could knock him around in midair all kinds of ways and it wouldn't faze him. That's athleticism on the level of Rose, Lebron, Carter; compared to them, Wall is only fast. This isn't a track meet it's a basketball game and in serious NBA play, you spend very little time running 40 yd dashes up and down the court, esp. in this era.
Again, because of that speed, and otherwise athleticism that is very above average (not elite), especially for his size, combined with his instincts as a point guard (which are also above average but not elite), he can become a top ten or fifteen player one day. But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.
The only reason I'm harping on this is because I was a Wizards fan who was being told that I was getting the most athletic and otherwise talented PG prospect to come along since Magic. He was the most highly touted prospect I'd heard of since Lebron James. And he comes here and he's just a taller Rondo; not the athletic wonder I'd been promised. But a taller Rondo is a damn good asset if it develops well.[/QUOTE]
I just don't understand how you see his athleticism like that. His chasedown blocks are beautiful. His first step is nasty. He's not better than the guys you mentioned but he's at least comparable.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Sarcastic]You already discussed him. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I mentioned him as an example, it doesn't exactly equate to discussing him, but at any rate you're really splitting hairs to prove a petty point.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Clifton]
Again, because of that speed, and otherwise athleticism that is very above average (not elite), especially for his size, combined with his instincts as a point guard (which are also above average but not elite), he can become a top ten or fifteen player one day. But it won't be because of athleticism of the "go one on five and score ever time" kind that Westbrook, Rose, and Lebron possess.
The only reason I'm harping on this is because I was a Wizards fan who was being told that I was getting the most athletic and otherwise talented PG prospect to come along since Magic. He was the most highly touted prospect I'd heard of since Lebron James. And he comes here and he's just a taller Rondo; not the athletic wonder I'd been promised. But a taller Rondo is a damn good asset if it develops well.[/QUOTE]
:applause:
I agree.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Clifton]Everyone has a 40 inch vert. [/QUOTE]
No they don't.
Westbrooks vertical was measured at 36.5" at the combine.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=tontoz]No they don't.
Westbrooks vertical was measured at 36.5" at the combine.[/QUOTE]
Yet he is the most explosive in game dunker at PG.
Some people run and jump better when the adrenaline is pumping and don't measure well in a combine setting.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Yet he is the most explosive in game dunker at PG.
Some people run and jump better when the adrenaline is pumping and don't measure well in a combine setting.[/QUOTE]
Not only this, but If you followed him from the start of his NBA career his jump improved a ton. Them roids.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=CeltsGarlic]Not only this, but If you followed him from the start of his NBA career his jump improved a ton. Them roids.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about Roids but I wouldn't doubt that many NBA players take the HGH cream for faster recovery times.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=Go Getter]Yet he is the most explosive in game dunker at PG.
Some people run and jump better when the adrenaline is pumping and don't measure well in a combine setting.[/QUOTE]
Or it could be that your perception differs from reality. I think that is the more likely scenario.
If Westbrook can get up as high as Wall why is Wall getting over twice as many blocks?
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE][B]John Wall and LaMarcus Aldridge have been named the NBA's Players of the Week.[/B]
Wall averaged 24.0 points, 11.0 assists, 5.0 rebounds and 2.5 steals per game while shooting .617 from the field, .800 from three-point range and .857 from the free-throw line in leading the Wizards to a 3-1 record during the week. Wall became the first NBA player since the three-point era began (1979-80) to average at least 24 points, 11 assists, five rebounds, two steals, shoot at least .600 from the field, .800 from three-point range and .850 from the free-throw line in a four game span.
[/QUOTE]
:applause:
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=tontoz]Or it could be that your perception differs from reality. I think that is the more likely scenario.
If Westbrook can get up as high as Wall why is Wall getting over twice as many blocks?[/QUOTE]
For real? John Wall is a more explosive leaper than RW?
:coleman:
Idk what to say so I'll just respect your right to have an opinion but when I look at games; (and I've played against NBA, NFL, and Div. I Big 10 players) when administering the "eye test" RW explodes with more ferocity than any other guard in the league.
As for your second question, Wall is taller with longer arms and better anticipation. That has nothing to do with the original talking point though.
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Re: John Wall's stats since March
[QUOTE=tontoz]:applause:[/QUOTE]
80% from three....wow:eek: .....wait....is that marked improvement or a statistical anomaly?