Phil Jackson: Rodman is the greatest athlete I've ever coached

Jeff Foster's the closest comparison to Rodman.

But I'm a bit biased.

[QUOTE=Godfather]Shaq is... So what if Rodman averaged those rebounding numbers; tell Shaq to do nothing but rebound and he would have easily trumped those numbers...[/QUOTE]
I was browsing the Suns roster - new article's on Tucker etc ...
and realized that Shaq is in his final contract year (correct me if I am wrong)
Wouldn't Porter just lov to tell Shaq board like no board man has done since Wilt ? :hammertime:

And Shaq would say ...

I'm just wondering where Shaq will end his career after this current contract is up .

[QUOTE=Mathius]See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius[/QUOTE]

spoken like someone who is out of touch with bball and skill development...

[QUOTE=bdreason]So being atheletic makes you the GOAT?

GTFO.

Rodman was freakishly atheletic and probably the best rebounder of all time, but that doesn't mean he could have been a great scorer. Shooting the ball is different than playing defense, it requires coordination. I'm a great defensive player and rebounder as well (also good at attacking the rim), but I don't have great coordination, and hence will never be a GREAT shooter.[/QUOTE]

NO retard. Again, I keep talking about Rodman's work ethic and mentality and you retards keep bringing up physicality.

Rodman was a ****ing Adonis in the weight room, I'll give him that, but my point is, irregardless of the fact that he didn't WANT to play offense, Rodman had one of the greatest understandings of the game of basketball of any player in his era.

He knew where he needed to be, where the ball was going to go, etc. and used those gifts on defense, because he had a great understanding of plays, fundementals, etc.

You morons see him jumping around tiping a rebound and then wearing a dress on the weekend, and you ignore the fact that the guy plain KNEW the game of basketball better than 85% of the league, if not more.

Mathius

[QUOTE=Mathius]NO retard. Again, I keep talking about Rodman's work ethic and mentality and you retards keep bringing up physicality.

Rodman was a ****ing Adonis in the weight room, I'll give him that, but my point is, irregardless of the fact that he didn't WANT to play offense, Rodman had one of the greatest understandings of the game of basketball of any player in his era.

He knew where he needed to be, where the ball was going to go, etc. and used those gifts on defense, because he had a great understanding of plays, fundementals, etc.

You morons see him jumping around tiping a rebound and then wearing a dress on the weekend, and you ignore the fact that the guy plain KNEW the game of basketball better than 85% of the league, if not more.

Mathius[/QUOTE]

Why do you assume work ethic + athletism = automatic great skills...Sorry but if you spendt time around ball players you will see it doesnt work like that. Some people just have a knack for certain things and some just are bad at certain things.

[QUOTE=Loki]Carter has a case. Rodman, however, is [b]nowhere near[/b] as athletic as Jordan. Nowhere near. I'm not sure how anyone can even say this with a straight face. How the hell are you measuring athleticism? :oldlol:

And there were certainly not a "lot" of people more athletically gifted than Jordan. [i]Maybe[/i] 6-7 guys all time if you include all positions, and those are all arguable.[/QUOTE]
lol how does he get all those rebounds? He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ. Jordan was very strong for his position, that helps him a lot but a lot of guys are more athletic than him. But you're Jordan hardcore fanatic so I understand.

[QUOTE=iamgine]He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ.[/QUOTE]
Rodman didn't have a great basketball IQ? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Younggrease]Why do you assume work ethic + athletism = automatic great skills...Sorry but if you spendt time around ball players you will see it doesnt work like that. Some people just have a knack for certain things and some just are bad at certain things.[/QUOTE]

Why are you even in this thread? Aren't you in high school? Did you ever even SEE Rodman play?

First off, you're wrong. Rodman had an extremely high basketball IQ, great body control, great athleticism, and was probably a harder worker than 95% of the league. He was also extremely intelligent, and had was one of the greatest mental opponents to ever play the game.

Let me ask you about something else you probably never saw first hand since you're SOOO worldy. Do you know what Jimmy Johnson's drafting strategy was?

He used to collect as many draft choices as possible, and draft players who score high on intelligence tests, had good personalities, and were gifted athletically. It didn't matter what stats they put up in college, he wasn't interested in that. He was interested in the other 3, because that meant he could teach them.

He turned out more quality players in his coaching tenure, than a lot of guys ever turn out in their careers.

Because if someone has the basics, they can learn to do other things.

BTW, smart guy. Did you know that Rodman averaged 26 points per game in college?

Why don't you spend a little time watching a little basketball and learning a little bit about sports before you start running your god damn mouth at me?

Mathius

[IMG]http://members.westnet.com.au/flippy/books/images/badasiwannabe.jpg[/IMG]


Very enjoyable read. You really get a look into his mind.

He played some major mind games with Malone during the finals. He turned that guy into putty. I wonder if they hang onto Horace Grant instead of getting Rodman, if the finals end in the same result? He was so key for those Bulls teams. Phil Jackson knew how to coach a guy like that. Wasn't a micromanager. Do what you want in your free time, but show up and be ready to play.

[QUOTE=Younggrease]
yeah I think you got me wrong...you say im in high school?? im a law student..[/QUOTE]

Ah, right. This is you: [url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101160[/url]

The broke a$$ college student. Still, doesn't matter. If you've ever seen Rodman play, I can almost guarantee you weren't much older than 10.

[QUOTE]you say I havent played ball....I started at a D3 for 3 years and spent 2 tours playing ball overseas...say I havent watched ball and I have been playing and watching since I was 5...But let me guess you pretend to coach or something...I have done that too...[/QUOTE]

Nice rant, but I never said d[COLOR="Black"]ic[/COLOR]k about you playing ball. It's irrelevant to the conversation. Learn to read.

[QUOTE]And then dude goes off about football[/QUOTE]

So are addressing someone else now? Just clarifying. Before it was "you" now it's "dude". Work on your tenses there. It's helpful for communication. Don't teach you that in law school?

[QUOTE] which is hardly analogous to bball...[/QUOTE]

I can't wait to hear why it's not analogous to basket ball. Are you saying that people with athleticism, intelligence, and a good attitude can learn to play football, but they can't learn to play basketball?

[QUOTE]then he brings up that Rodman averaged 26 points a game against like D2 players...Horace Jenkings did the same thing and so did a bunch of other guys..He was just a class better then them as an athlete. Reggie Evans would have averaged 26 a game at 20 in D2 too.[/QUOTE]

The point had nothing to do with comparisons of level of competition. You argued that Rodman doesn't have the skills to score and can't be taught to score, but evidently he can score on someone because 26 points per game is quite a lot of points for someone who came to the NBA and didn't even want to shoot.

[QUOTE]Basketball isnt like that...you cant just project and athlete to work hard and this just get skills...Its not like its easy to get to just get the basics. Rodman would have to change his whole jumpshot and its a hard thing to do...Plus he would have to develop some sort of handle and feel for the post....[/QUOTE]

And you're ignorant enough to believe that Rodman didn't already have those skills and just chose to not use them. It's not hard to change jump shot mechanics. That's why shooting coaches have jobs. That's why players improve their shooting percentage over the years, or become three point threats later in their careers. It's called working at it until it becomes habit.

What does playing in the post have to do with anything anyways? From a skills standpoint, it's much easier than playing the wing or god forbid, point guard.

[QUOTE]But you seem to think that just because he is athletic and has a feel for the game he would be as good as MJ...What a tool...why dont you stop the internet tough guy routine, get a life, get some *****...and then stick to another sport because you obviously dont much about bball. And its even more obvious that you never played any ball at a high level...you have no understanding for how hard even average players work on their skills and how often it doesnt work out for them.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and you're a disrespectful punk, but I don't let that get in the way of conversation.

There's a big damn difference between those players and Rodman. Those players all have flaws, or just plain aren't good to begin with. Rodman was a damn good basketball player who stopped working on his offensive game and chose to devote all his time to defense and rebounding.

I could sit here and list all the reasons why other players fail, but I don't have that kind of time.

Mathius

[QUOTE=Mathius]See, you f*cking idiots think you know everything. When I say something you guys give me sh*t and call me a moron.

I said a LOOONG time ago that if Dennis Rodman had put as much effort into his offensive game as he did his defensive game, he'd have been as good as Michael Jordan, if not better. The guy was as mentally focused as they come, and was just as athletically gifted as any other guy.

Do you know how much more physical (muscle) effort it takes to keep tipping the ball and jumping up and down continuously like Rodman did, then it does to just glide in and dunk the ball?

Mathius[/QUOTE]

[B]Rodman was athletic but had no Offensive Skills. You can`t just Become Talented Over Night :no: . Some Coordinations are Natural and for Rodman. Rebounding, Playing D and Hustlce with his athletic gifts was natural but not Shotting, Passing, Creating, Post Game etc...:confusedshrug: [/B]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Rodman was athletic but had no Offensive Skills. You can`t just Become Talented Over Night :no: . Some Coordinations are Natural and for Rodman. Rebounding, Playing D and Hustlce with his athletic gifts was natural but not Shotting, Passing, Creating, Post Game etc...:confusedshrug: [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, the Charles Barkley troll says Rodman couldn't be a good offensive player, so that settles it I guess.

Mathius

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][B]Rodman was athletic but had no Offensive Skills. You can`t just Become Talented Over Night :no: . Some Coordinations are Natural and for Rodman. Rebounding, Playing D and Hustlce with his athletic gifts was natural but not Shotting, Passing, Creating, Post Game etc...:confusedshrug: [/B][/QUOTE]that's not true rodman did have offensive skills he actually had a nice little fadeaway jumper he used early in his career, you know he averaged 11.5ppg on 56% his second year in the league? but only 8 rebounds per game...

in the 89 season he was ranked 3rd in the league in offensive rating, same year he lead the league in FG%, not bad for a guy with no offensive skills eh?

he focused on his defense and rebounding as his career evolved knowing a top rebounder and defensive player will always have a starting spot on any roster, bruce bowen is another that has made a career by putting his offensive needs second...

[QUOTE=gts]that's not true rodman did have offensive skills he actually had a nice little fadeaway jumper he used early in his career, you know he averaged 11.5ppg on 56% his second year in the league? but only 8 rebounds per game...

in the 89 season he was ranked 3rd in the league in offensive rating, same year he lead the league in FG%, not bad for a guy with no offensive skills eh?

he focused on his defense and rebounding as his career evolved knowing a top rebounder and defensive player will always have a starting spot on any roster, bruce bowen is another that has made a career by putting his offensive needs second...[/QUOTE]

[B]Could Rodman average 20 PPG with a 50 plus FG% for his whole career? :no:
Was He An Offensive Threat to Other PFs? :no:
Was He Doubled and Tripled Teamed Off and On the Post? :no:
Could He become the Go to Go Guy Offensively and Carry a Team That Way? :no:

Don`t Get Me Wrong he had a nice Jumper, Was A Fast Dude that Would Catch Nice Passes on the Break or By Setting Him Up for an Easy Basket but he was not Talented Offensively but Defensively. And as the Years Went He Worked Hard Adding the Rebounding etc..[/B]

I gotta agree with Mathius on this one, isn't kind of funny that maybe the 2 greatest rebounders and defenders of their eras(Russell and Rodman) focus lead to their championships( in rodman the next 3 peat, in Russell the 11 chapionships). Horace grant was great, but he was no rodman( on Orlando Horace was that good though). I believe Jordan to be one of the greatest NBA players of all time, but to act like there isn't players that have better understanding of the games( Magic, Bird) and could have been better than Jordan is out right luDACRIS, ( jORDAN not Isa ).

[QUOTE=iamgine]lol how does he get all those rebounds? He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ. Jordan was very strong for his position, that helps him a lot but a lot of guys are more athletic than him. But you're Jordan hardcore fanatic so I understand.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

Again, [B]please define athleticism[/B]. Let's say Rodman's stronger -- okay, what else? And Jordan was very strong, mind you. Then Jordan [b]sh!ts[/b] on Worm in speed/quickness, body control, coordination, leaping, dexterity. Just takes a big steaming dump on him. Rodman isn't even in Jordan's universe as an athlete. "A lot of guys" were more athletic than Jordan? Try [i]arguably[/i] 5-7 players in history and you'll be closer.

Let me know when you have anything coherent to say.

I wouldn't bet against Rodman beating Jordan in a weightlifting or speed contest. He was also very coordinated for his size.

[QUOTE=eliteballer]I wouldn't bet against Rodman beating Jordan in a weightlifting or speed contest. He was also very coordinated for his size.[/QUOTE]

Jordan could pretty handily outrun Rodman. Weightlifting probably not. And he didn't have elite coordination like MJ/Carter/Kobe.

[QUOTE=Loki]:oldlol:

Again, [B]please define athleticism[/B]. Let's say Rodman's stronger -- okay, what else? And Jordan was very strong, mind you. Then Jordan [b]sh!ts[/b] on Worm in speed/quickness, body control, coordination, leaping, dexterity. Just takes a big steaming dump on him. Rodman isn't even in Jordan's universe as an athlete. "A lot of guys" were more athletic than Jordan? Try [i]arguably[/i] 5-7 players in history and you'll be closer.

Let me know when you have anything coherent to say.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: all we need is look at old videos.

Let me know when you have better credentials than Phil Jackson to speak.

[QUOTE=iamgine]:oldlol: all we need is look at old videos. [/QUOTE]

Oh, is that all? :oldlol:

Funny how no one has [b]ever[/b] mentioned Rodman when discussing the most athletic players in history prior to this comment by Jackson, huh? :oldlol:

I love how you won't define athleticism, by the way. If we're going by what we see with our eyes, Jordan (and Kobe, and Pippen, and Shaq of players PJax has coached) are all worlds more athletic than Rodman.

[QUOTE]Then Jordan sh!ts on Worm in speed/quickness, body control, coordination, leaping, dexterity.[/QUOTE]

Im not sure he was just worlds beyond a prime Rodman in any of those. rodman was known as one of the best athletes in the NBA in his youth. And youth is a relative term. he came into the NBA at 25. He was past a persons usual physical prime before he was even a big minutes player. And even then...he was a beast. he could run with anyone on the break. Even when he was skinny he could hold his own in the post with legit bigmen and still guard Jordan or Drexler types. He could jump too. I doubt he had a 40 inch vertical but he had some springs. He had some of the most amazing blocks ever(like Charles Barkley...two non shot blockers who had fantastic blocks when they did get them).

Rodman peaked popularity wise in his mid to late 30s. He wasnt nearly the athlete he was when he was young by then. Rodman could have been in the 1981 draft. Hes like a month younger than Isiah Thomas. From what I saw of young Dennis I think his early 20s version would be considered a great athlete even today. Somewhere between Josh Smith and Kenyon Martin as an athlete though it wouldnt show since hed do little to display it as they do.

edit

You really never heard of Rodman being a great athlete? I remember an announcer saying he thought Dennis might be the most gifted player in the NBA in the late 80s. He meant physically. Around the time that everyone spoke on how he ran like a deer.....

[QUOTE=mjbulls23]Rodman didn't have a great basketball IQ? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Funny thing is... his basketball IQ made him stand out. That guy must've had clairvoyant abilities as to where rebounds went.

[QUOTE=Loki]Oh, is that all? :oldlol:

Funny how no one has [b]ever[/b] mentioned Rodman when discussing the most athletic players in history prior to this comment by Jackson, huh? :oldlol:

I love how you won't define athleticism, by the way. If we're going by what we see with our eyes, Jordan (and Kobe, and Pippen, and Shaq of players PJax has coached) are all worlds more athletic than Rodman.[/QUOTE]
Who ever discuss that? The best athlete might be MJ but he was not the most athletic. Jordan was great but he wasn't a freak specimen like Rodman. Anyone can do what Jordan did. Jordan was an athletic player with skill, mental and minds above his peers. He might be the most skillful player ever. But no one can rebound like Rodman. Pure athleticism, Rodman wins.

And again, Let me know when you have better credentials than Phil Jackson to speak.

Rebounding is more instinct and desire than athletic ability. By his houston years Barkley was strong but not a top athlete in any other way...still got 13 rebounds a game.

[QUOTE=Heretik32]Funny thing is... his basketball IQ made him stand out. That guy must've had clairvoyant abilities as to where rebounds went.[/QUOTE]
You do know that basketball isn't all about rebounds and his basketball IQ was just average if not below. Not like Pippen, Bird or MJ who had great Bball IQ. While it's true that he had a knack for where rebounds went, he also used his freak athleticism to get the rebounds.

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You really never heard of Rodman being a great athlete? I remember an announcer saying he thought Dennis might be the most gifted player in the NBA in the late 80s. He meant physically. Around the time that everyone spoke on how he ran like a deer.....[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between saying that someone is a great athlete and saying that he's a better overall athlete than 3 of the top 10 athletes who have ever played (MJ/Shaq/Kobe). I believe Rodman is a great athlete, no question. I don't believe he's on their level, however, much less above it.

As for your other points, well, I've seen Jordan outrun Rodman while dribbling on breaks, so I'm not sold that he's as fast as MJ. And even if he was equal in end-to-end speed, what about lateral quickness/acceleration/leaping/body control/overall coordination.

I just don't see it. When you think of the elite athletes in history, you don't think of Dennis Rodman, despite his physical versatility (which never really happened at the same time -- i.e., he generally didn't guard PF/C's and SG/SF's during the same years -- but is impressive nonetheless).

[QUOTE=iamgine]Who ever discuss that? The best athlete might be MJ but he was not the most athletic. Jordan was great but he wasn't a freak specimen like Rodman. Anyone can do what Jordan did. Jordan was an athletic player with skill, mental and minds above his peers. He might be the most skillful player ever. But no one can rebound like Rodman. Pure athleticism, Rodman wins.
[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

Holy [b]sh!t[/b], dude. :hammerhead: :roll:

[QUOTE=Loki]:oldlol:

Holy [b]sh!t[/b], dude. :hammerhead: :roll:[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

must be the first time loki is wrong aboout MJ :roll:

[QUOTE=iamgine]lol how does he get all those rebounds? [B]He sure as hell not have a great basketball IQ.[/B] Jordan was very strong for his position, that helps him a lot but a lot of guys are more athletic than him. But you're Jordan hardcore fanatic so I understand.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but I just had to quote this so that I could bask in it's stupidity.

That is by far one of the most ignorant statements I have seen someone post on ISH. Rodman knew the game, he knew what to do on offense and what to do on defense, he knew where to be, what to do and where to go. Rodman's IQ for basketball is matched by very few players.

Yeah, Rodman definitely had a very good basketball IQ. No question there.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]I'm sorry, but I just had to quote this so that I could bask in it's stupidity.

That is by far one of the most ignorant statements I have seen someone post on ISH. Rodman knew the game, he knew what to do on offense and what to do on defense, he knew where to be, what to do and where to go. Rodman's IQ for basketball is matched by very few players.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. He also had a nack for that ball, he wanted the rebound more than anybody else, Rodman was a f'n beast!

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]I'm sorry, but I just had to quote this so that I could bask in it's stupidity.

That is by far one of the most ignorant statements I have seen someone post on ISH. Rodman knew the game, he knew what to do on offense and what to do on defense, he knew where to be, what to do and where to go. Rodman's IQ for basketball is matched by very few players.[/QUOTE]
great bball iq = Bird, MJ, Stockton, Pippen, Nash, many NBA coaches, etc

not Rodman, he had average bball IQ with freaky athleticism and a knack for rebounding. You basically just describe most NBA players.

[QUOTE=iamgine]great bball iq = Bird, MJ, Stockton, Pippen, Nash, many NBA coaches, etc

not Rodman, he had average bball IQ with freaky athleticism and a knack for rebounding. You basically just describe most NBA players.[/QUOTE]
Average basketball IQ, is an understatement if you ask me. Rodman was a genius when it came to playing basketball, he just knew the game. His rebounding was more the desire to go and get the ball over anything else, but to say that his basketball IQ was average.....I just think you're wrong.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]Average basketball IQ, is an understatement if you ask me. Rodman was a genius when it came to playing basketball, he just knew the game. His rebounding was more the desire to go and get the ball over anything else, but to say that his basketball IQ was average.....I just think you're wrong.[/QUOTE]

Too bad I got to spread it round before being able to repp you again. That's exactly the formula: Rodman = high bball IQ + reckless desire for rebounds + being able to get into opponents' heads. No other player in the league has ever been able to match that combination.

[QUOTE=Loki]Oh, is that all? :oldlol:

Funny how no one has [b]ever[/b] mentioned Rodman when discussing the most athletic players in history prior to this comment by Jackson, huh? :oldlol:

I love how you won't define athleticism, by the way. If we're going by what we see with our eyes, Jordan (and Kobe, and Pippen, and Shaq of players PJax has coached) are all worlds more athletic than Rodman.[/QUOTE]


Don't have the quote in writing ,but Chuck Daly did say that Rodman had "world class speed".


Like the guys who attacked Doc Rivers credibility it's ridiculous when guys on a message board feel as if they can casually dismiss the opinion of a nine time NBA Champion Coach.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]Average basketball IQ, is an understatement if you ask me. Rodman was a genius when it came to playing basketball, he just knew the game. His rebounding was more the desire to go and get the ball over anything else, but to say that his basketball IQ was average.....I just think you're wrong.[/QUOTE]
If he's a genius at all, I'd say he's a genius at knowing his role on the court. He knew that he can only do one thing good and that's rebounding and defense so that's what he does. If you want to call that genius then we have very different definition of bball IQ. And mind you average NBA player has much higher bball IQ than common ballers so it's not really an insult to call his bball IQ average. It's just not in the class of MJ, bird, pippen and others.

[QUOTE]There's a difference between saying that someone is a great athlete and saying that he's a better overall athlete than 3 of the top 10 athletes who have ever played (MJ/Shaq/Kobe). I believe Rodman is a great athlete, no question. I don't believe he's on their level, however, much less above it.

As for your other points, well, I've seen Jordan outrun Rodman while dribbling on breaks, so I'm not sold that he's as fast as MJ. And even if he was equal in end-to-end speed, what about lateral quickness/acceleration/leaping/body control/overall coordination.

I just don't see it. When you think of the elite athletes in history, you don't think of Dennis Rodman, despite his physical versatility (which never really happened at the same time -- i.e., he generally didn't guard PF/C's and SG/SF's during the same years -- but is impressive nonetheless).[/QUOTE]

Its true that Rodman doesnt come up when people think of the best athletes...but Jeff Trepagnier doesnt either. Nor does Marcus Haislip. MJ, Shaq, and Kobe will get more mentions because they are MJ Shaq and Kobe. Not to say they dont deserve them.....but greatness and star status will get some guys mentions beyond those of equal athletes who arent as good as players.


And.....im not convinced Kobe is top 10...I mean really....Jordan, Lebron, James white, Shaq, Drexler, Vince carter, Kemp, Wilt, David Thompson, nate robinson, pre injury Tmac, young Eddie Jones, Dwight Howard, and even guys like Larry Nance, and Gerald Wallace may be better or at least arguably so as pure athletes. Im not sure Kobe is a more athletic player than Andre Iguodala.....or Harold Minor(even aside from his dunks...that guy was quick as hell and built like a tank).

Think Kobe is stronger or a better leaper than Darvin Ham was? I dont think Kobe gets up like Baron Davis in his youth nor do I think hes faster. Steve Francis had more bounce than Kobe and was strong. Not as quick though. Is Kobe really THAT much more athletic than Chris webber in his youth? You think Kobe can go get a lob that say....Rodney Carney or Gerald Green cant? Is Kobe faster than Iverson in his youth? Have the Hops? Hes stronger...but I see no reason to call him more coordinated.

I dont think Kobe could out jump Brent Barry nor do I think hes got more body control. Clippers/Bulls Barry was just out of hand sometimes with the shots and passes hed pull out of his ass from impossible angles. Kobes stronger and quicker in the halfcourt....but im not saying Brent is a better athlete.

What im saying is that Kobe is a guy who has a looooooooooooooooooooooooong list of guys who are equal or better than him at something. He makes it up in other areas in most of those things....but as a total athlete I see no reason to rank him above Nate robinson who id call faster, stronger overall(partly due to build), and a far far better leaper. Nate is an NFL level corner athletic ability wise.

Kobe doesnt belong in a "Top 10 for sure" list. Kobe isnt Kobe because hes athletic. Hes Kobe because he works his ass off and combined natural talent with a great desire to be great. Athletically? Pure physical talent? Hes not much more than DerMarr Johnson plus a weight room.

[QUOTE=iamgine]If he's a genius at all, I'd say he's a genius at knowing his role on the court. He knew that he can only do one thing good and that's rebounding and defense so that's what he does. If you want to call that genius then we have very different definition of bball IQ. And mind you average NBA player has much higher bball IQ than common ballers so it's not really an insult to call his bball IQ average. It's just not in the class of MJ, bird, pippen and others.[/QUOTE]
I know his IQ isn't in the league of Bird and MJ, that's why I said that his IQ is unmatched by few. There is only a few guys that have a better IQ than Rodman, obviously MJ, Bird, Magic, et cetera are the few that are above Rodman.

Just because Rodman doesn't do everything on the court, doesn't mean he doesn't know what to do. He does his job, because that's what he wanted to do and not many people wanted to take the role of the guy who wanted to get dirty.

An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position. But, does he play every play from every position? No, he just knows how to. He knows exactly where everybody should be and exactly what they should be doing. That constitutes a part of his basketball IQ. I'm sure Rodman was to something like that with the Pistons, Spurs and/or Bulls.

Also, Rodman claimed to watch tapes of his teammates shots, so that he knew roughly the paterns of their rebounds. Now, we all know that when a person shoots from the right side of the basket, the ball is more than likely going to rebound off to the left side of the basket, but do we know how high or how far? No, that is something you just have to assume when you go for a rebound. Rodman watched tapes of his teammate shooting, so that he would know how high the ball rebounded and how far out the ball rebounded, giving him a much easier time on the boards. This alone doesn't make Rodman a great basketball mind, but it sure as hell makes up a part of his basketball mind, which was great.

[QUOTE=Kebab Stall]An example of this would be Rasheed Wallace. I read something not too long ago (it might have been on here) that said he knows every play from every position.[/QUOTE]

Surprised the heck out of me too when I read that. Apparently Sheed could tell you every movement for every player on every set play in Detroit's play book... and that was back when that play book had the size of the bible.