Is Shaq top 5 ever? Why, why not?

[QUOTE=Godfather]Give an example strong enough that should knock a man down this list. Dis raps against Kobe do not count.[/QUOTE]he did, but i'll add some more, showing up in camp out of shape taking half the season to get his game legs, letting imjuries that happened in may go until october to be repaired, telling the free throw shooting coach the lakers have hired to leave him alone... calling out tex winter in film rooms telling him to shut up old man when tex critized his lack of help defense... the man is a portrait of a person who had all the skills to be the greatest to ever play but settled... that's why he's not a top 5 player, you can't put him ahaed of guys that dedicated themselves to being the best they could be and succeeding, magic, bird, kareem wilt and jordan spent every possible moment becoming a better player and a better team mate, shaq didn't so that's why he is a top 5 center and a top 10 player

[QUOTE=guy]BTW, what the hell is that?[/QUOTE]

Its an award thats determines who is the most valuable to their team, though its worked out on the computer through a series of formulas and what not.

[url]http://www.basketballattic.addr.com/ibm.htm[/url]

That's a list of all the winners.

...

I'd rank those players above Shaq:

1. Michael Jordan: The goat.
2. Wilt Chamberlain: The best NBA player in NBA franchise history before MJ showed up.
3. Magic Johnson: Best PG of all time.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The only Center who could ever challenge Wilt.
5. Larry Bird: Best SF of all time for sure.
6. Bill Russell: The one who won the most rings.
7. Oscar Robertson: Mr Triple-Double.
8. Jerry West: Second Best SG of all time and don't forget his figure is still on NBA's logo.

Therefore, I'd say Shaq is an elite top 10 NBA player of all time but he's not so close to the spot of Top 5 as some of you guys claimed before.

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]I'd rank those players above Shaq:

1. Michael Jordan: The goat.
2. Wilt Chamberlain: The best NBA player in NBA franchise history before MJ showed up.
3. Magic Johnson: Best PG of all time.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The only Center who could ever challenge Wilt.
5. Larry Bird: Best SF of all time for sure.
6. Bill Russell: The one who won the most rings.
7. Oscar Robertson: Mr Triple-Double.
8. Jerry West: Second Best SG of all time and don't forget his figure is still on NBA's logo.

Therefore, I'd say Shaq is an elite top 10 NBA player of all time but he's not so close to the spot of Top 5 as some of you guys claimed before.[/QUOTE]
You do realize that just because you write or think something doesn't make it fact, right?
After reading a lot of your posts, I think you believe exactly that.

shaq is one of the top 5 best basketball players ever. did he have one of the 5 best careers ever? maybe not.

[QUOTE=Anti404]You do realize that just because you write or think something doesn't make it fact, right?
After reading a lot of your posts, I think you believe exactly that.[/QUOTE]

Give me a reason why you'd rate Shaq above any of those franchise players I listed.

[QUOTE=bleedinpurpleTwo]he's definitely a top 5 center.

probably top 10 player all-time. in my mind, he's remarkable lack of professionalism knocks him down the all-time list.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Shaq is more than likely to be a Top 5 Center of all time but top 5 players? I'm not sure though.

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]I'd rank those players above Shaq:

1. Michael Jordan: The goat.
2. Wilt Chamberlain: The best NBA player in NBA franchise history before MJ showed up.
3. Magic Johnson: Best PG of all time.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The only Center who could ever challenge Wilt.
5. Larry Bird: Best SF of all time for sure.
6. Bill Russell: The one who won the most rings.
7. Oscar Robertson: Mr Triple-Double.
8. Jerry West: Second Best SG of all time and don't forget his figure is still on NBA's logo.

Therefore, I'd say Shaq is an elite top 10 NBA player of all time but he's not so close to the spot of Top 5 as some of you guys claimed before.[/QUOTE]

[B]Jerry West [/B]- Please. OMG, hes on the NBA logo, who gives a damn?
[B]Oscar Robertson [/B]- Stats. What else has he got? You can't rate him better because of one triple double season he's had. What else does he have over Shaq? MVP's? Championships? Finals MVP's?
[B]Bill Russell[/B]- You have to play both sides of the floor to be considered truely great.
[B]Larry Bird [/B]- Sure Larry impacted the game more then Shaq, but does he have more accomplishments? No.
[B]Wilt[/B] - Have you seen him play? No, you've heard about his stats and simply agree with everyone to sound knowledgeable. If he was as dominant as people claim, he would have won more championships, and he would have won them when he was in his prime, not run down and playing with stars.

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets][B]Give me a reason why you'd rate Shaq above any of those franchise players I listed.[/B]


Agreed. Shaq is more than likely to be a Top 5 Center of all time but top 5 players? I'm not sure though.[/QUOTE]

Reasons below kid.

Give me a reason as to why the 5 players I have bolded should be rated above Shaq? I've given you mine as to why Shaq should be above them.

[QUOTE=plowking][B]Jerry West [/B]- Please. OMG, hes on the NBA logo, who gives a damn?
[B]Oscar Robertson [/B]- Stats. What else has he got? You can't rate him better because of one triple double season he's had. What else does he have over Shaq? MVP's? Championships? Finals MVP's?
[B]Bill Russell[/B]- You have to play both sides of the floor to be considered truely great.
[B]Larry Bird [/B]- Sure Larry impacted the game more then Shaq, but does he have more accomplishments? No.
[B]Wilt[/B] - Have you seen him play? No, you've heard about his stats and simply agree with everyone to sound knowledgeable. If he was as dominant as people claim, he would have won more championships, and he would have won them when he was in his prime, not run down and playing with stars.[/QUOTE]

[B]Jerry West[/B]: The only Final MVP who wasn't not on a winning team.
[B]Oscar Robertson[/B]: Even MJ wouldn't lead that Royals team to an NBA title.
[B]Bill Russell[/B]: More and more people claimed that he's overrated since they're under 16.
[B]Larry Bird[/B]: The first time when I see someone bashing on this great player, nice try.
[B]Wilt[/B]: I didn't watch most of the games he played, but I did saw the game when a declining Wilt dominated a prime Kareem.

[QUOTE=plowking][B]Jerry West [/B]- Please. OMG, hes on the NBA logo, who gives a damn?
[B]Oscar Robertson [/B]- Stats. What else has he got? You can't rate him better because of one triple double season he's had. What else does he have over Shaq? MVP's? Championships? Finals MVP's?
[B]Bill Russell[/B]- You have to play both sides of the floor to be considered truely great.
[B]Larry Bird [/B]- Sure Larry impacted the game more then Shaq, but does he have more accomplishments? No.
[B]Wilt[/B] - Have you seen him play? No, you've heard about his stats and simply agree with everyone to sound knowledgeable. If he was as dominant as people claim, he would have won more championships, and he would have won them when he was in his prime, not run down and playing with stars.[/QUOTE]

Agreed on not ranking West and Oscar above Shaq (I don't), but Bird certainly does have more accomplishments than Shaq. He has 3 straight MVP's, many more top 3 finishes in MVP voting, a similar number of all-NBA teams, and an equal number of titles. Shaq's one extra Finals MVP doesn't make up for that, especially considering that Bird was outright robbed for Finals MVP in 1981.

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]I'd rank those players above Shaq:

1. Michael Jordan: The goat.
2. Wilt Chamberlain: The best NBA player in NBA franchise history before MJ showed up.
3. Magic Johnson: Best PG of all time.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The only Center who could ever challenge Wilt.
5. Larry Bird: Best SF of all time for sure.
6. Bill Russell: The one who won the most rings.
7. Oscar Robertson: Mr Triple-Double.
8. Jerry West: Second Best SG of all time and don't forget his figure is still on NBA's logo.

Therefore, I'd say Shaq is an elite top 10 NBA player of all time but he's not so close to the spot of Top 5 as some of you guys claimed before.[/QUOTE]
explain me please how Bill Russell, Jerry West and Oscar Robertson are better than Shaquille O'Neal?

[QUOTE=plowking][B]Jerry West [/B]- Please. OMG, hes on the NBA logo, who gives a damn?
[B]Oscar Robertson [/B]- Stats. What else has he got? You can't rate him better because of one triple double season he's had. What else does he have over Shaq? MVP's? Championships? Finals MVP's?
[B]Bill Russell[/B]- You have to play both sides of the floor to be considered truely great.
[B]Larry Bird [/B]- Sure Larry impacted the game more then Shaq, but does he have more accomplishments? No.
[B]Wilt[/B] - Have you seen him play? No, you've heard about his stats and simply agree with everyone to sound knowledgeable. If he was as dominant as people claim, he would have won more championships, and he would have won them when he was in his prime, not run down and playing with stars.[/QUOTE]
dont even say that about Larry Bird. Larry Bird is the second greatest player of all time behind Michael Jordan!

[QUOTE=Loki]Agreed on not ranking West and Oscar above Shaq (I don't), but Bird certainly does have more accomplishments than Shaq. He has 3 straight MVP's, many more top 3 finishes in MVP voting, a similar number of all-NBA teams, and an equal number of titles. Shaq's one extra Finals MVP doesn't make up for that, especially considering that Bird was outright robbed for Finals MVP in 1981.[/QUOTE]

Shaq has 4 titles, 1 more then Larry. Seeing as how you said Larry was robbed of the Finals MVP in 1981, don't you think Shaq was robbed a few times of the regular season MVP?

[QUOTE=plowking]Shaq has 4 titles, 1 more then Larry. Seeing as how you said Larry was robbed of the Finals MVP in 1981, don't you think Shaq was robbed a few times of the regular season MVP?[/QUOTE]

Horry has 7 titles, one more than Jordan...

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets][B]Jerry West[/B]: The only Final MVP who wasn't not on a winning team.
[B]Oscar Robertson[/B]: Even MJ wouldn't lead that Royals team to an NBA title.
[B]Bill Russell[/B]: More and more people claimed that he's overrated since they're under 16.
[B]Larry Bird[/B]: The first time when I see someone bashing on this great player, nice try.
[B]Wilt[/B]: I didn't watch most of the games he played, but I did saw the game when a declining Wilt dominated a prime Kareem.[/QUOTE]

How am I bashing, I simply said Shaq has achieved more then Larry. I fail to see the bashing there. Yet you still didn't give me a reason as to why he deserves to be better the Shaq. You simply gave me the "how dare you? Larry? He is top 3". It's the safe answer.

[QUOTE=Kiddlovesnets]Horry has 7 titles, one more than Jordan...[/QUOTE]

Does he play both ends of the floor? Does he have amazing stats? Does he dominate his era?

Shaq has all this, so don't try and bring that pathetic argument here.

[QUOTE=AllenIverson3]dont even say that about Larry Bird. Larry Bird is the second greatest player of all time behind Michael Jordan![/QUOTE]

Why? Can you give me a reason? That's all I'm asking for...

shaq is 2nd only to mj

He is top 10 but there is no way he is top 5 or top 7 for that matter.

These players are demonstrably greater:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson

These players are arguably greater:
Jerry West
Julius Erving, Hakeem Olajuwon (probably not)

Oscar Robertson had neither a more decorated/successful career nor more impact on games than Shaq. No way is Oscar above Shaq. No way.

[QUOTE=72-10]He is top 10 but there is no way he is top 5 or top 7 for that matter.

These players are demonstrably greater:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson

These players are arguably greater:
Jerry West
Julius Erving, Hakeem Olajuwon (probably not)[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE=72-10]He is top 10 but there is no way he is top 5 or top 7 for that matter.

These players are demonstrably greater:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Oscar Robertson

These players are arguably greater:
Jerry West
Julius Erving, Hakeem Olajuwon (probably not)[/QUOTE]

Oscar better then Shaq? Ask anyone who doesn't follow basketball and doesn't know much about it. Everyone will know Shaq, same can't be said for Oscar. So Shaq has a bigger impact on the game, and better stats, and more achievements.

[QUOTE=plowking]Oscar better then Shaq? Ask anyone who doesn't follow basketball and doesn't know much about it. Everyone will know Shaq, same can't be said for Oscar. So Shaq has a bigger impact on the game, and better stats, and more achievements.[/QUOTE]

So what? There isn

Oscar rep is mostly because of his triple double season.

[QUOTE=Collie]Oscar rep is mostly because of his triple double season.[/QUOTE]

Well he

[QUOTE=biisak]Well he

[QUOTE=biisak]Well he

[QUOTE=plowking]Ah yes, the best way of determining which player was better then another.[/QUOTE]

Who said it was? Don

[QUOTE]You mean the dominance that gave him 0 titles in his prime? He was only able to win later on in his career where he was on a stacked team.[/QUOTE]

The same dominance that led him break about a million records and that led a mediocre Warrior team to the 1960 and 1962 ECF, losing to the 60+ win Celtics in 6 and 7 games (losing in the second case to the Celtics by only 2 points in game 7).
1967 is definitely during Wilt's prime. I don't know how you can possibly say that it wasn't. because he didn't win the scoring title? Big deal, he pretty much obliterated boxscores, recording one triple-double after another, won the MVP by a landslide. If that's a "past prime" player, OK...

The 1972 team wasn't as stacked as you think it was. Actually, they were overachivers. They were considered an old team, with Wilt being 35-36, West only a year younger, Elgin Baylor retired and a so-so bench. Among the big weaons, only Goodrich was in his prime. They had already lost to the Bucks in 1971 (though they played without West) and few gave them chances of winning it all. 69 wins? 33 in a row? If you told this to anyone before the start of the season, they'd think you're nuts.
BTW, Wilt was still an MVP contestant, would be a serious DPOY contestant if the award existed and easily won the Finals' MVP. He was still the best player of his team, even past his prime.

[QUOTE]Bill Russell- You have to play both sides of the floor to be considered truely great.[/QUOTE]

Magic and Bird disagree. Oh, and Drazen, too.

[QUOTE=plowking]Oscar better then Shaq? Ask anyone who doesn't follow basketball and doesn't know much about it. Everyone will know Shaq, same can't be said for Oscar. So Shaq has a bigger impact on the game, and better stats, and more achievements.[/QUOTE]

Apparently we should measure greatness in the basketball world by using the lack of knowledge of people outside of it as the ruler.:roll:

And you appear to be one of these people who doesn't follow basketball if you do not recognize that Oscar was more impressive statistically than Shaq. In fact Oscar is among that elite class statistically with Wilt and Michael. It should be self-evident that Oscar had considerably more skill than Shaq. If a point guard can change a game as much as a 7 foot center can, I'm going to give the point guard more credit. He has to work harder to achieve something great.:hammerhead: Oscar has more influence on the game, and has been the standard bearer of the "all-around" player (perhaps Jordan supplanted him).

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by plowking
Oscar better then Shaq? Ask anyone who doesn't follow basketball and doesn't know much about it. Everyone will know Shaq, same can't be said for Oscar. So Shaq has a bigger impact on the game, and better stats, and more achievements.[/QUOTE]

Really, a lot of that has to do with the fact that Oscar is 25 years older at this point. So it's not a particularly strong reason why. And Oscar's triple double is almost a little underrated, because if you aggregate his numbers over his first 5 years, he actually averaged a triple double over that whole span, which is remarkable really regardless of how you adjust the numbers.

That said, I still think Shaq is ahead of Oscar. I used to think Oscar was in the 7-10 range, with West, but I'm more inclined now to put the MVP caliber, multiple title leading bigs in there, namely Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, and Malone. I still feel all of them fall just behind the other six, mostly because of the multiple MVPs and multiple titles. Oscar and West to me are just behind them, probably in a tier to themselves, but perhaps lumpable into another small group.

Shaq during his prime had more on-court impact than any other player ever had or probably will.

To list Chamberlame, Bill "No Muscle" Russel or Magic "Misused His Johnson" Johnson ahead of Shaq is absurd.

players better than shaq

JOrdan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Hakeem(shaq said so )
Kareem

same lvl as shaq

Barkley
pippen
Bill Russel
Pete Maravich
Oscar robertson
Moses Malone
Dr J
David Robinson

[quote=Rekindled]players better than shaq

JOrdan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Hakeem(shaq said so )
Kareem

[U][B]same lvl as shaq[/B][/U]

[SIZE=3][B]Barkley
pippen[/B][/SIZE]
Bill Russel
[SIZE=3][B]Pete Maravich
Oscar robertson
Moses Malone
Dr J
David Robinson[/B][/SIZE][/quote]
Why the hell are you on this thread...It is obvious you know nothing about basketball.

[QUOTE=plowking]Why? Can you give me a reason? That's all I'm asking for...[/QUOTE]

I mean u can saying this but thats 100 % not true. Larry Bird is better than Shaquille O'neal

[QUOTE=Rekindled]players better than shaq

JOrdan
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Hakeem(shaq said so )
Kareem

same lvl as shaq

Barkley
pippen
Bill Russel
Pete Maravich
Oscar robertson
Moses Malone
Dr J
David Robinson[/QUOTE]

And I'm the one that's delusional when Shaq is the one getting underrated in these types of threads.

[QUOTE=72-10]Apparently we should measure greatness in the basketball world by using the lack of knowledge of people outside of it as the ruler.:roll:

And you appear to be one of these people who doesn't follow basketball [B]if you do not recognize that Oscar was more impressive statistically than Shaq[/B]. In fact Oscar is among that elite class statistically with Wilt and Michael. It should be self-evident that Oscar had considerably more skill than Shaq. If a point guard can change a game as much as a 7 foot center can, I'm going to give the point guard more credit. He has to work harder to achieve something great.:hammerhead: Oscar has more influence on the game, and has been the standard bearer of the "all-around" player (perhaps Jordan supplanted him).[/QUOTE]

Lets rate David Robinson ahead of Tim Duncan then. It's only fair. He had better statistical seasons then Tim in his prime, so he obviously deserves to be ahead of him. I beleive he had a season where he averaged over 2 steals and 4 blocks per game, which is a very rare feat similar to that of Oscars triple double in terms of comparing it to Shaq.

So should David Robinson be rated above Tim Dunan?

[QUOTE=Psileas]The same dominance that led him break about a million records and that led a mediocre Warrior team to the 1960 and 1962 ECF, losing to the 60+ win Celtics in 6 and 7 games (losing in the second case to the Celtics by only 2 points in game 7).
1967 is definitely during Wilt's prime. I don't know how you can possibly say that it wasn't. because he didn't win the scoring title? Big deal, he pretty much obliterated boxscores, recording one triple-double after another, won the MVP by a landslide. If that's a "past prime" player, OK...

The 1972 team wasn't as stacked as you think it was. Actually, they were overachivers. They were considered an old team, with Wilt being 35-36, West only a year younger, Elgin Baylor retired and a so-so bench. Among the big weaons, only Goodrich was in his prime. They had already lost to the Bucks in 1971 (though they played without West) and few gave them chances of winning it all. 69 wins? 33 in a row? If you told this to anyone before the start of the season, they'd think you're nuts.
BTW, Wilt was still an MVP contestant, would be a serious DPOY contestant if the award existed and easily won the Finals' MVP. He was still the best player of his team, even past his prime.



[B]Magic and Bird disagree. Oh, and Drazen, too[/B].[/QUOTE]

Uhh Bird was in several All-Defensive teams. Drazen was no slouch, and held his own against much more athletically gifted guards. Averaged 1.3 steals per game in 37 mpg with New Jersey.

[QUOTE=plowking]Uhh Bird was in several All-Defensive teams. Drazen was no slouch, and held his own against much more athletically gifted guards. Averaged 1.3 steals per game in 37 mpg with New Jersey.[/QUOTE]

Bird barely made 2 or 3 All-Defensive [B]2nd[/B] teams, and was never close to 1st team status... mediocre on-ball defender, good help defender.