National Basketball Association "World Champs"

[QUOTE=jan803]i'll start w/baseball.

baseball is DEFINITELY more of an international game. just keep in mind that baseball has been around for almost 100 years. back in the day baseball was as american as it could be.

but if you fast forward to 2006, w/so many international players from asia...japan and korea, all the central american countries, naturally cuba, baseball is a worldwide league. so sure, you can say for the last 30 years baseball has changed and IF the mbl wants to rethink 'WORLD SERIES' when there's been this century long precident...

as for the nba...

for the most part, this was an AMERICAN league. naturally there's the competitive part of the league and the business side of the league. the league wanting to diversify the league wanted to get international players into it.

it's pretty obvious that the best of the best of the world plays in the nba. why? because what translates beyond borders is an nba contract.

the rest of the world has the advantange of staying in their respective leagues around the world. they'll play longer w/their respective teams longer since i doubt the international players are worrying about whether their 'star players' are going sign a mult-year, multi-million dollar contracts unless of course they think they're good enough and enter the draft...the NBA draft.

funny thing is the players that go overseas AREN'T GOOD ENOUGH to play in the nba.

the international players MUST BE GOOD ENOUGH to come and play in the nba.

note the difference.

if the international fans want to be happy that that fiba beat out our usa team. you have a right to be happy about it.

you put together a better TEAM. that's the bottomline the world recognizes.

but if you really believe the best is from spain...[/QUOTE]
Hey Jan...
Like I said, NBA players are very good and extremely skilled, and I don't think I said the best players are in Spain. Of course the NBA is the best league in the world. But that doesn't make its Champion the World Champion. How can a world champion play teams from 2 countries only.
And I don't think that you can refute the argument that international players tend to know their fundamentals better than NBA players, which is what I said.
A good example if your favourite player. If he didn't have all the fundamentals, wouldn't he be just a taller version of Steve Francis? I personally would take Ginobili (good fundamentals + good athletism) over Steve Francis (exceptional athletism + doubtful fundamentals) every day.

To sum up what I'm saying: the NBA Champ isn't the World Champ.
The NBA is the best league in the world.
The losses of Team America over the last FOUR years are mainly due to the lack of fundamentals and the style of play that one can observe in the NBA

[QUOTE=itsmedamien]I agree. NBA champions should be called just that, NBA champions and nothing more.[/QUOTE]
I agree as well. For now, the NBA is still the best league in the world but the gap is closing. The FIBA champion has a much greater claim to be the World Champion than any NBA team.

What I would love to see is the coordination of the best Euro league championship with the NBA championship where both would end at about the same time. Then, the winners could go on to play a series for the true World Championship, perhaps it could be the best of three -- a shorter series than the NBA championship, but more than just a single winner-take-all game.

[QUOTE=dejordan]the only way to make this a valid argument is for a whole team of fiba stars with little to no experience playing nba basketball to create a new team to play in the nba with no more than a month to prepare. and for the record wasn't jasikevisius supposed to be the best player in europe the year before last? why couldn't he hold down a starting spot in the nba. i seem to remember a broken down dominique wilkins winning an mvp when he played fiba ball... of course dominique is old school and we're ragging on current nba standards, so maybe that's not a fair comparison. anyway this is a dumb argument, and i'm going to drop it. the original poster is right. nba champ does not equal word champ.[/QUOTE]
Again, I never said that non American players are the best. I said that Team USA is paying the price for the lack of fundamentals that seems to be a trend in the NBA. Jasikevisius wouldn't even play 1 minute f it wasn't for his fundamentals. I want to see how a player like Steve Francis will be at 30 (Jasikevisius' age). I'm not saying he definitely won't be a starter, but when that athletism of his is gone, what's left? That it the point I'm making. The lack of fundamentals.
As you said yourself, 'Nique was old school and even though he probaly couldn't dunk, jump etc. like in his younger days, he made up for it with his smarts.
Stockton at 40 was still a good player in the NBA, mostly on smarts. I don't see many of today stars doing it in 15 years.

[QUOTE=Diamonds]Again, I never said that non American players are the best. I said that Team USA is paying the price for the lack of fundamentals that seems to be a trend in the NBA. Jasikevisius wouldn't even play 1 minute f it wasn't for his fundamentals. I want to see how a player like Steve Francis will be at 30 (Jasikevisius' age). I'm not saying he definitely won't be a starter, but when that athletism of his is gone, what's left? That it the point I'm making. The lack of fundamentals.
As you said yourself, 'Nique was old school and even though he probaly couldn't dunk, jump etc. like in his younger days, he made up for it with his smarts.
Stockton at 40 was still a good player in the NBA, mostly on smarts. I don't see many of today stars doing it in 15 years.[/QUOTE]
totally valid arguments diamond. i don't disagree with any of that. well said.

[QUOTE=dejordan]totally valid arguments diamond. i don't disagree with any of that. well said.[/QUOTE]
:cheers:

[quote]I said that Team USA is paying the price for the lack of fundamentals that seems to be a trend in the NBA.[/quote]

I dont agree at all....I dont think fundamentals is the problem....the problem is chemistry and team cohesiveness...

The USA team spends very little time together as a team developing their chemistry (especially their defensive chemistry)..

this hurt them alot when they go up against teams that have been playing together for 6,7 years...

[QUOTE=Rasheed1]I dont agree at all....I dont think fundamentals is the problem....the problem is chemistry and team cohesiveness...

The USA team spends very little time together as a team developing their chemistry (especially their defensive chemistry)..

this hurt them alot when they go up against teams that have been playing together for 6,7 years...[/QUOTE]
Rasheed, I agree that not practicing together for 3 weeks only isn't enough and is part of the problem, but previous versions of Team USA also faced the same situation.
I mean, yes, some of the other teams have been playing together for a long time, but it's for what, a month every 2 years? (on average, I guess). I personally didn't see the game against Greece, just highlights, but I saw Team USA getting KILLED by the same play over and over again. I never played competitive ball, but even when we had basketball in gym class, the teacher (who was actually a basketball coach) taught us various ways to defend it. Being burnt over and over by the same play for 40 minutes can't be blamed on lack practicing time, especially when the play in question is a pick & roll. Team USA didn't shoot well at all, and I think it's accepted by everyone that shooting is a dying art in the NBA. Same for free throws...I mean, it's an elimination game. For one player to choke that bad on the line in these types of game is acceptable, but a whole team of stars and superstars??

But yes, I do agree, Rasheed, 3 weeks definitely aren't enough to create a real team.

some good comments

here is what i agree with

the nba and international b-ball are different games; different rules/different rhythms; consistent within themselves.

the nba is the best league in the world; to many (usa) homers, this is the championship that really matters because we follow the nba closely and our rivalries are within the usa. fiba and the olympics creep up every couple of years and then we slap a "team" together and expect them to play as such

the international development of players and understanding of the game of basketball challenges usa hoops to rediscover what it means to play team ball. fundamentals, good shooters and good teamwork will always beat a team chock full of talent who dont work as well together and dont know their roles and how to share the ball effectively.

with the nba and the structure of contract negotiations, everyone is worried about stats which can, at times, severely affect the team game and chemisty

the nba champs should be called nba champs not world champs

it would be fun to watch the nba champ play the european/asian champs. one year they could play with international rules; the next year nba rules. a three game series would suffice. all money could go to international disaster relief efforts

NBA = elite basketball league on earth, made up of players from around the WORLD competiting for a championship. Its alwaysw been this way and will forever be this way. When the original Dream Team buttphucked international comp, no one gave a crap what we called "world champs" at the time. Get a clue. If the world championship games were so much important and a direct representation of being world victors then tell all these damn international pricks to pack thier bags and leave America and the National Basketball Assosciation.

Dirk? What are you here for? Just million dollar contracts? Funny. Please leave. Go play with a bunch of lames who know how to play together in prepare for world domination. :rolleyes:

Ask Manu, Dirk, Nene, Tony P why they are in the NBA and everything i said will be repeated in some way, shape or form. Fact.

*tosses those medals in ocean*

[quote]I personally didn't see the game against Greece, just highlights, but I saw Team USA getting KILLED by the same play over and over again. I never played competitive ball, but even when we had basketball in gym class, the teacher (who was actually a basketball coach) taught us various ways to defend it. Being burnt over and over by the same play for 40 minutes can't be blamed on lack practicing time, especially when the play in question is a pick & roll.[/quote]

The USA team failure against the pick & roll is exactly what I was thinking of when I said the chemistry is bad

[QUOTE=Rasheed1]The USA team failure against the pick & roll is exactly what I was thinking of when I said the chemistry is bad

[QUOTE=Rasheed1]The USA team failure against the pick & roll is exactly what I was thinking of when I said the chemistry is bad

[quote]Greeks are inferior athletically and I think simple adjustments on that pick & roll defense would've been enough.imo[/quote]

Greeks are inferior athletically, but they are superior to the USA when it comes to chemistry and familiarity with each other...If the USA had good [b]Team Defense[/b] they wouldnt allow the Greeks to run the same play over and over.....


[quote]and regarding fundamentals, if most NBA players have them, they hide thme very well. Too many players need the ball to be effective, and few are actually$ serious outside threats.[/quote]

this is true, but that problem can be solved a few ways.....1 way is to shoot less threes and play better team defense...play high % basketball on offense and play together as a team on defense and the USA wouldnt have half the problems it does.......Shooting threes when that isnt your strength is just a dumb idea....USA is playing into the opponents hands....you designate one or maybe 2 players to shoot the outside shots for the sole purpose of keeping the floor spread, and then you play to your strength which is playing high % basketball in the paint...better defense also adds to easy pts of that defense....

USA needs to develop plays it can run offense and develop a good chemistry on defense...

Does everybody remember that this was year one of an actual program where these guys will be playing with each other for years to come and they got third place (without many star players partcipating)? Pretty good in my opinion.

They will continue adding players to the plan thus making it just like every other country has for years.

Due to the popularity and wonderful sport that basketball is, it was clear that just throwing a team together for 3 weeks during summer couldn't cut it, so this was step 1 in a needed plan and I look forward to more of the USA's elite players playing and coming together as a unit over the next two years and into the future.

Until then Spain are the world champs fair and square.

Also, remember we'll get a good look at some of the exhibition games slated to take place this NBA preseason pitting the Spurs and Suns against some of the Euro Leagues best teams including Maccabi Elite Tel Aviv.

It's just semantics. Who cares? You're arguing for the sake of arguing.

The Super Bowl winner have always been called the world champs (despite football only being popular in America). The Stanley Cup winner = world champs. Why the hell do they call it [b]World[/b] Series when MLB games are played exclusively in the US? I don't know. My point is: who really gives a shyt?

No, the NBA champs didn't beat the entire world. But the NBA champs have always been called the world champs. Who knows how long that dates back to... Nobody seemed to have a problem with it 10 years ago when we were smoking the entire world by 60+ points on average in FIBA competition.. but now that the rest of the world has finally caught up, they're offended that we call the NBA champs world champs? :confusedshrug:

I have always wondered about this..It sounds very shady.
It would be the same if a winner of European champions league (football) declared themselves as world champions, but they of course dont do it although estimated value of one of their players is bigger than value of all players from international teams and playing in big European clubs is a dream for many players..
I mean it doesnt matter how good you are, you cant call yourself a world champion if there is no official competition for it..

Winning Spanish primera division makes you Spanish champion..
Winning English premiership makes you English champion..
Winning European champions league makes you European champion..

Winning NBA makes you ...

Let's start the World Club competition already.

[QUOTE=Huey Freeman]Let's start the World Club competition already.[/QUOTE]

It starts this year. The winners from all continents except Europe and North America. Europe and North America send the winners from the second divisions (Eurocup and D-League).

NBA was invited and refused as usual and sent the D-League champs instead, because of that the Euroleague also refused and so also sent their second division champs.

However, for next year the NBA has been invited again and so far is considering doing it. The Euroleague's position is that they will compete as long as the NBA champs do. Once again it is the NBA that is blocking this.

Obviously the NBA is terrified at the prospect of the NBA champs losing a game to the Euroleague champs.

[QUOTE=Lakas Fan Yo]It starts this year. The winners from all continents except Europe and North America. Europe and North America send the winners from the second divisions (Eurocup and D-League).

NBA was invited and refused as usual and sent the D-League champs instead, because of that the Euroleague also refused and so also sent their second division champs.

However, for next year the NBA has been invited again and so far is considering doing it. The Euroleague's position is that they will compete as long as the NBA champs do. Once again it is the NBA that is blocking this.

Obviously the NBA is terrified at the prospect of the NBA champs losing a game to the Euroleague champs.[/QUOTE]

It has more to do with it being pointless from the NBA side of things. It really is a lose/lose situation. A win and who cares..thats what is suppose to happen. A loss and all hell breaks loose.

And who decides what rules they play, euro rules are alot different to NBA rules.

[QUOTE=All Net]It has more to do with it being pointless from the NBA side of things. It really is a lose/lose situation. A win and who cares..thats what is suppose to happen. A loss and all hell breaks loose.

And who decides what rules they play, euro rules are alot different to NBA rules.[/QUOTE]
I think by that point they should be using those new FIBA rules.

Those go into effect in 2010 I'm pretty sure (longer distance 3 point line, larger court, rectangular key, restricted area arc, etc.).

.

[QUOTE=All Net]It has more to do with it being pointless from the NBA side of things. It really is a lose/lose situation. A win and who cares..thats what is suppose to happen. A loss and all hell breaks loose.

And who decides what rules they play, euro rules are alot different to NBA rules.[/QUOTE]
it is not euro rules,it's fiba rules aka rest of the world rules!!

[QUOTE=All Net]It has more to do with it being pointless from the NBA side of things. It really is a lose/lose situation. A win and who cares..thats what is suppose to happen. A loss and all hell breaks loose.

And who decides what rules they play, euro rules are alot different to NBA rules.[/QUOTE]

That's what I'm saying, for that reason the NBA does not want to do it. Stern cannot risk his precious NBA marketing if they were to lose. As far as the rules go FIBA has already changed to NBA rules and NBA style court starting after the 2010 world championship. This is obviously one of the major reasons why the rules were changed and why the court was widened, and the 3 point line moved back, and the lane shape changed to a rectangle by FIBA. Stern claimed he needed all of this to approve the world championship.

So all of that will be in place and the Euroleague clubs will have no issue with it because ULEB also changed the same things and so the Euroleague, Eurocup and the domestic leagues will be making the changes also. On top of that, from the way I understand Stern has made it clear that the NBA will never participate unless ONLY NBA refs are used. So that would be an excuse if the NBA says they would not do it because of reffing and the rules, since the NBA is going to get their way on both of those entirely, with the tournament being under NBA rules, with NBA refs, and with NBA court specifications.

I don't see what else the NBA needs.

[QUOTE=Huey Freeman]I think by that point they should be using those new FIBA rules.

Those go into effect in 2010 I'm pretty sure (longer distance 3 point line, larger court, rectangular key, restricted area arc, etc.).

.[/QUOTE]

Yes that's correct.