Kobe tied MJ for the most career game winning shots at 26

[QUOTE=EricForman]maybe my criteria is too strict, but my definition, or at least when i think of game winners, i think of fisher on spurs or jordan over ehlo.

but apparently game winners are loosely defined.

something like this scenario:

Player A scores with the game tied with 40 seconds to go to put Team A up 2.
Team B then misses a shot.
Team A then misses a shot again.
Team B then turns the ball over. intentionally fouls. clock runs out.

Guess Player A's shot would be called a game winner, but I would never think of it as such.[/QUOTE]

so what would u call it?

[QUOTE=JordanL]Because you're trying to make the argument that Kobe is the better player than MJ. Kobe isn't half the player MJ was. They're not even in the same league.[/QUOTE]

Got a question for you. Who else would you put in MJ's league (or same breath as MJ) if you don't put Kobe in there?

I am [B]not[/B] asking you to admit that Kobe is better than Jordan because he clearly isn't, but I honestly believe that Kobe has to be put in the same breath as Jordan as other top few perimeter players (this category does [B]NOT[/B] include centers and PF's). I would put these perimeter players in the same breath as Jordan: Bird, Magic, Oscar, Kobe, Isiah, Stockton (not in any kind of order). LeBron/Wade will probably be in there eventually as well. Still, at this point Kobe is the 2nd best SG to play in nba history after Jordan.

BTW - I think that gamewinners should include shots ONLY in the last 10 second frame, NOT more than that. Freethrows should not be included since the clock is not running(hence the FREE-throws) and shots BEFORE the last 10 seconds should count as clutch but NOT gamewinners. In my book, there is a difference between hitting really clutch shots and hitting game winners, and this is how I would define a gamewinner as in my book.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]EricForman[/B]
maybe my criteria is too strict, but my definition, or at least when i think of game winners, i think of fisher on spurs or jordan over ehlo.

but apparently game winners are loosely defined.

something like this scenario:

Player A scores with the game tied with 40 seconds to go to put Team A up 2.
Team B then misses a shot.
Team A then misses a shot again.
Team B then turns the ball over. intentionally fouls. clock runs out.

Guess Player A's shot would be called a game winner, but I would never think of it as such.[/QUOTE]

My personal definition of a winning shot is when someone scores the point to give the final lead to his team and the score doesn't change after that (the only exception is if someone has to sink only 1 or 2 free throws to win it and he sinks 2 or 3-all in the same possession, of course). It doesn't have to be a buzzer-beater or within the X final seconds. So, in this example, if the player of Team A misses his final free throws, I'd still count the last basket as a winning one. If he made one, I wouldn't.

[QUOTE=JordanL]Because you're trying to make the argument that Kobe is the better player than MJ. Kobe isn't half the player MJ was. They're not even in the same league.[/QUOTE]

When did I say that Kobe was a better player than Jordan?

Why do you have to get all defensive everytime Kobe does anything good?

[QUOTE=DuMa]impressive statistic. it says alot about Kobe's ability to finish in the clutch. He's always amazed me on that particular feat of his[/QUOTE]

:cheers: I'm glad some people can accept it for what it is and not take it as an attack on MJ.

[QUOTE=JJ81]NBA.com's list of MJ's game winners is at 25 but it doesn't include his game winner against the Suns in 2002 when he was playing for the Wizards so thats 26 total.

After tonights game against the Pacers Kobe's got 26. Kobe should have 27 but the one against the Celtics in (2002) when the ball was clearly out of his hands was waived off so Kobe's official total is 26.

[B]MJ's totals:[/B] [url]http://www.nba.com/jordan/game_winners.html[/url]
[B]
Kobe's totals:[/B] [url]http://www.dolem.com/kobe_game_winners.htm[/url]

Notice Michael Jordan's totals includes FTs, Kobe's doesnt.[/QUOTE]

Actually, Jordan had 3 game winners as a Wizard: vs. Phoenix, NY, and Cleveland. So that's 28. Also note that the actual number is 33 as seen in the link posted below. But even this is incomplete (see below).

Secondly, they use different criteria for "game winners" for modern guys like Kobe/Melo than they did for Jordan. Someone once posted Kobe's game-winners with links to videos of all of them, and based on the game situation, the shots he hit never used to be counted as game winners in Jordan's day. They only counted walk-off shots as game-winners on Jordan's list. But if you use the same criteria that they use for Kobe/Melo etc., Jordan has many more "game winning" shots than what's listed (at least 6-8 that I know of, and I've hardly seen every Jordan game). One such example is the Jazz flu game 3-pointer he hit at the end of the game to put them up 3 (it was tied when he hit it). Utah then scored a quick 2, but that was it and Chicago won by 1 point. Things like that in those contexts are counted as game-winners for Kobe, but not for Jordan. Jordan has MANY of those shots. Many.

On top of that, there are shots he's made that were supposed to count as game-winners under the OLD criteria, but which aren't on the list (vs. Cleveland in the '93 playoffs; vs. Orlando; vs. Milwaukee; vs. Clippers his rookie year etc.).

[quote]Nice back-handed compliment.

There's a good list of Jordan game-winning shots at:

[url]http://www.23jordan.com/shots1.htm[/url]

It looks to be pretty complete.
[/quote]

It's not nearly complete. See above. Also note that that list has [b]33[/b] shots, not 26 like the OP said. But even that list is far from complete, whether using old criteria and especially using the new criteria they use for modern "game winners."

[QUOTE=Jacks3]One of MJ's was him missing the first and hitting the second free throw giving the Bulls a 1 point lead, with time on the clock, which I don't think is a gamewinner.
Some of those on Kobe's list are kind of dubious. Even if you want to count game winners at 30+ secs (one was at 55 secs), the author counts go-ahead shots, #3 wasn't a game winner at all, and one was a 4-pt win (I guess he hit a 4 pointer). Clutch shot does not necessarily = game winner.
Have to set a criteria here first[/QUOTE]

Yeah, a lot of Kobe's shots (and Melo's and every modern player who they compile the GW lists for) are what used to be called "go ahead shots." That is, it put his team ahead for good even if his team and/or the other team scored after his shot, so long as the other team never tied or regained the lead again. Those never counted as GW shots for Jordan.

There's also the issue of incomplete info. I personally know of 3-4 ACTUAL game-winners by the old criteria that aren't on Jordan's list, and at least half a dozen such "go ahead" shots, of which I mentioned a few above.

[QUOTE=JJ81]By the end of Kobe's career he will have had more game winning shots than Jordan.[/QUOTE]

And if he does? He'll undoubtedly have played more seasons than Jordan did. What's Kobe's conversion percent on game-winning attempts? Yeah, that's what I thought...

Kobe is clutch, but he's taken (and missed) a ton more "game winning" shots than Jordan did simply because his teams have been involved in lots more close games. If you have lots more opportunities to hit game winning shots, you will do so, even if it's at a relatively poor % (like Kobe's is; I think he;s like 35-38% on GW attempts since 2003 or something).

[QUOTE=EricForman]maybe my criteria is too strict, but my definition, or at least when i think of game winners, i think of fisher on spurs or jordan over ehlo.

but apparently game winners are loosely defined.

something like this scenario:

Player A scores with the game tied with 40 seconds to go to put Team A up 2.
Team B then misses a shot.
Team A then misses a shot again.
Team B then turns the ball over. intentionally fouls. clock runs out.

Guess Player A's shot would be called a game winner, but I would never think of it as such.[/QUOTE]

These types of shots are counted as game winners for Kobe and other modern players but weren't for Jordan (see above posts). Jordan had a sh!t-ton of these types of shots.

[QUOTE=LOKI]Secondly, they use different criteria for "game winners" for modern guys like Kobe/Melo than they did for Jordan.[/QUOTE] Please show us some type of link..this sounds like you're just making stuff up...lol

edit: 82 games decribes as

[QUOTE=82games]Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Actually, Jordan had 3 game winners as a Wizard: vs. Phoenix, NY, and Cleveland. So that's 28. Also note that the actual number is 33 as seen in the link posted below. But even this is incomplete (see below).[/QUOTE]

Actually they must be about 29. In the 1990-92 period they added for a second time some of his '89 baskets.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]And if he does? He'll undoubtedly have played more seasons than Jordan did. What's Kobe's conversion percent on game-winning attempts? Yeah, that's what I thought...[/QUOTE]

And if he does, he does! That's it. I'm not trying to say anything else. I'm just stating the facts. Why do have to get all defensive whenever someone mentions something that Kobe did? Why can't you just take it for what it is rather than accusing people of saying **** that they weren't even thinking? It's paranoia. Every time someone says that Kobe's done something good, there's always people like you saying "...yeah but he's nothing compared to mj" or "he'll never be mj". Who's talking about that?!


And what do you mean "yeah, that's what I thought", I didn't even reply...


You're pathetic.

[QUOTE=gts]Please show us some type of link..this sounds like you're just making stuff up...lol

edit: 82 games decribes as[/QUOTE]

You do realize that 82games.com are not the ones compiling the Kobe game-winner list, right? Not sure why you're pointing to their criteria...

What link do you need? I just described a perfectly legitimate play of the sort that counts as a game-winner on Kobe's list but not Jordan's: the 3-pointer at the end of the flu game vs, Utah. The video is on youtube. The game was tied and that put Chicago up 3; Utah then scored a quick 2, but then Chicago got a quick dunk the other way to seal the win. All in the last 20 seconds or so. Utah never tied again or took the lead after Jordan's 3. These type of go-ahead baskets are myriad on Kobe's list (and every modern players' list), but aren't on Jordan's. Ditto the other examples I mentioned.

Jordan has both a ton of this type of shot as well as legitimate game-winners under the OLD criteria that were not included on his list. There was a game vs. LAC in his rookie year where he hit a layup to put them up 1 with 30 seconds left, then the Clippers scored, then he hit another layup to win the game. Both of these layups are featured on Jordan highlight videos, actually, but the GW shot is not included on his list. The full game used to be up on YT but they removed it for copyright reasons. This WAS the link to the game video, because I had saved it a couple of years ago for discussions like this:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/browse?&ytsession=kPXcIUuAYcoPaMQxOYEZ9lzeBXaqQ16eJ4MMrCfIJ64DRpDtQt9nfsdCyyUJloHRZXeC5qiz9Ql_FEoY802-knmUAxtC9ONS20fHArbQMdDDOyaS08NOc_-5w7vPVo8WwC1H0eC2_qetPErgFrUUrN7wrqHyD5NRbml7Vw9ugjJvvMgcqTHRM0xthvj3PI4qMMfwcnX4liB_Zs_BCNRW-Iph_f0RMCXxNrlzEQCr7luSqrbxmPJNcJCHl0TA8RPd2mEZ_LlYxaSpRny88k0ry_MoshJRnUu51XffR3_WV6ERMkZTlbLfOufzNoQnhxsl[/url]

here's a list since the posted link seems broken

12/27/99: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
02/13/00: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the and-1)
05/10/00: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
06/14/00: Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (NBA Finals, off reb and put back)
11/16/00: Lakers 112 - Kings 110 (OT game-tying 3 pointer for OT, & jumper for win)
02/07/01: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 sec)
01/02/02: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off reb and the jumper)
02/22/02: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater jumper)
03/24/02: Lakers 97 - Kings 96 (fade-away with 36 sec)
05/12/02: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs, off reb for the put back)
12/06/02: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
04/04/03: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater jumper)
04/06/03: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (final jumper with 28.6 sec)
02/17/04: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
02/19/04: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, fade-away)
03/03/04: Lakers 95 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao with 22 sec)
03/21/04: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 sec)
04/14/04: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT game-tying 3-pointer for OT, & g-winning 3-pt buzzer beater)
03/13/05: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (pump fake for the win)
11/02/05: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
12/04/05: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
01/07/06: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (game-winning off-the-window shot)
01/12/06: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 sec, & Lebron choking)
04/30/06: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (OT game-tying tear drop for OT, and game-winning jumper)
01/14/08: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
01/09/09: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 sec)


OldSchoolBBall i'm not saying all the shots are game winners... matter of fact if you read in the lakers forum i corrected the op on jordans list... but i just find it funny that you seem to feel the criteria has changed yet kobe's and jordan's careers overlap for several years... did they change the criteria only after jordan retired?

And again, though the margin of victory in most of those is 1-2 points, many of his shots were "go ahead baskets" where he scored to put LA ahead, then the other team scored (either a basket or FT's) without tying or regaining the lead, and then LA scored again (either a basket or FT's) to finish the game. There was a post a long time ago on here that had links to video of every one of these shots, and based on the score when he hit the shot (which doesn't match up with the final score), you can see that this is the case.

I wonder if there's a stat for most career playoff game winners.

[QUOTE=gts]here's a list since the posted link seems broken

12/27/99: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs)
02/13/00: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT game-winning layup with the and-1)
05/10/00: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs, jumper over Jason Kidd)
06/14/00: Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (NBA Finals, off reb and put back)
11/16/00: Lakers 112 - Kings 110 (OT game-tying 3 pointer for OT, & jumper for win)
02/07/01: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper with 2.7 sec)
01/02/02: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off reb and the jumper)
02/22/02: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (first career buzzer-beater jumper)
03/24/02: Lakers 97 - Kings 96 (fade-away with 36 sec)
05/12/02: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs, off reb for the put back)
12/06/02: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (28-point game comeback, spin-around jumper)
04/04/03: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater jumper)
04/06/03: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (final jumper with 28.6 sec)
02/17/04: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (layup and the foul)
02/19/04: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (game after the trial, fade-away)
03/03/04: Lakers 95 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao with 22 sec)
03/21/04: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper with 25 sec)
04/14/04: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT game-tying 3-pointer for OT, & g-winning 3-pt buzzer beater)
03/13/05: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (pump fake for the win)
11/02/05: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper after the Kwame brick)
12/04/05: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs)
01/07/06: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (game-winning off-the-window shot)
01/12/06: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper against Lebron with 8 sec, & Lebron choking)
04/30/06: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (OT game-tying tear drop for OT, and game-winning jumper)
01/14/08: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT game-winning jumper)
01/09/09: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper against Jarrett Jack with 3 sec)


OldSchoolBBall i'm not saying all the shots are game winners... matter of fact if you read in the lakers forum i corrected the op on jordans list... but i just find it funny that you seem to feel the criteria has changed yet kobe's and jordan's careers overlap for several years... did they change the criteria only after jordan retired?[/QUOTE]

I remember 82games mentioned Kobe was 7-32 in 3 years in game winning situations. That is not a good % at all.

[QUOTE=gts]

OldSchoolBBall i'm not saying all the shots are game winners... matter of fact if you read in the lakers forum i corrected the op on jordans list... but i just find it funny that you seem to feel the criteria has changed yet kobe's and jordan's careers overlap for several years... did they change the criteria only after jordan retired?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure to be honest with you. All I know is that I know of several games where Jordan hit shots in the exact same contexts and they weren't included on his list. I mentioned some of them above. For instance, Jordan hit a push-shot layup from just inside the FT line off the glass plus the resulting FT in the '92 or '93 playoffs vs. Cleveland to put Chicago up 2, but it's not on the list. The game video is on youtube. If you can explain that, feel free. I have no idea, myself, but I know what I see. Also note that the first shot on Kobe's list is from the 2000 season. You can see the same stuff I'm talking about in Melo's list too.

Also, realize that someone would have actually had to do significant work to compile a Jordan game-winning shots list for his entire career, seeing as how the source material (the game videos) is not readily available. It's not like today where everyone hears about and has access to video instantly thanks to the internet etc.

[QUOTE=LAShow24]I remember 82games mentioned Kobe was 7-32 in 3 years in game winning situations. That is not a good % at all.[/QUOTE]82 games has him with 7 between the fall of 2003 and spring of 2006 and htis list shows 13 so clearly whoever made the list is "generous" lol

[QUOTE=gts]82 games has him with 7 between the fall of 2003 and spring of 2006 and htis list shows 13 so clearly whoever made the list is "generous" lol[/QUOTE]

That's partly why I was wondering why you were invoking 82games.com criteria in this discussion, since 82games.com wasn't the one compiling the list. The criteria are different.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]What's Kobe's conversion percent on game-winning attempts? Yeah, that's what I thought...

[/QUOTE]


The other night on NBA Fastbreak I heard them say that in since 2003 or the last three years ( I forget which one they said), Kobe is 5/33 on game winning attempts with :2 seconds or less to go.

[QUOTE=LAShow24]I remember 82games mentioned Kobe was 7-32 in 3 years in game winning situations. That is not a good % at all.[/QUOTE]

This might be the stat I heard the other night on NBA Fastbreak.

This would be a nice thread if you had actually posted the correct # for each player, never mind the criteria.:applause:

All that matters is wins and producing and Jordan does that better than Kobe, so I don't really care about the neat little fact that this post claims.

[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]This would be a nice thread if you had actually posted the correct # for each player, never mind the criteria.:applause:[/QUOTE]
yeah..i actually kinda made this a project this afternoon, you can see kobe;s updated list in the lakers forum, i'm not done yet but working on it

[QUOTE=JordanL]Because you're trying to make the argument that Kobe is the better player than MJ. [B]Kobe isn't half the player MJ was. They're not even in the same league.[/B][/QUOTE]
:roll:

[QUOTE=gts]yeah..i actually kinda made this a project this afternoon, you can see kobe;s updated list in the lakers forum, i'm not done yet but working on it[/QUOTE]
very nice:applause:

[QUOTE=Scott Pippen]very nice:applause:[/QUOTE]
:applause:

If you guys are going to start with the game winners with time left, Brandon Roy might have about 50 of those. He hits whatever clutch shot Portland needs, and the Blazers win a lot of close games.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]If you guys are going to start with the game winners with time left, Brandon Roy might have about 50 of those. He hits whatever clutch shot Portland needs, and the Blazers win a lot of close games.[/QUOTE]
:roll: @ this clown bringing Roy/Blazers into every thread.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]If you guys are going to start with the game winners with time left, Brandon Roy might have about 50 of those. He hits whatever clutch shot Portland needs, and the Blazers win a lot of close games.[/QUOTE]

lol.

roy would have to pass the melo/manu/hedo/nash club before he reaches a discussion with jordan and kobe.

really.

roy doesn't belong here.

I don't care about totals as much as I care about percentages.

I saw some people post what seems to be a legit percentage on behalf of Kobe. But does anybody have an MJ percentage from a trusted source?

I mean.... lets suppose Kobe does have more.

What's the point if he had 30 more opportunities than MJ?

[QUOTE=04mzwach]All that matters is wins and producing and Jordan does that better than Kobe, so I don't really care about the neat little fact that this post claims.[/QUOTE]

Then what's the point in posting in here?

now if only someone could find a way to compile a list of games that didn't come down to a game winner because Jordan didn't let them get to that point...

[QUOTE=Biddy77]now if only someone could find a way to compile a list of games that didn't come down to a game winner because Jordan didn't let them get to that point...[/QUOTE]

Uh oh......

*heads for cover*

[QUOTE=andgar923]But does anybody have an MJ percentage from a trusted source?
[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc[/url]

According to this he missed 26 gamewinners. I don't know how reliable it is though. I don't even know when it was made. Maybe his Bulls career wasn't over yet.

[QUOTE=Mikaiel][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc[/url]

According to this he missed 26 gamewinners. I don't know how reliable it is though. I don't even know when it was made. Maybe his Bulls career wasn't over yet.[/QUOTE]

But 26 out of how many attempts?

[QUOTE=Biddy77]now if only someone could find a way to compile a list of games that didn't come down to a game winner because Jordan didn't let them get to that point...[/QUOTE]

Idiot.

Carmelo Anthony will Break Kobe's game winning record, easily IMO.

Melo already has like 8 or so.

Kobe is averaging 2 game winners a year the same with MJ.

Melo is just 24 years old, and could play at a high level until he pretty much wants to since he has fundamentals down.

I c Melo Breaking Kobe's record when it's all said and done.

[QUOTE=Mikaiel][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc[/url]

According to this he missed 26 gamewinners. I don't know how reliable it is though. I don't even know when it was made. Maybe his Bulls career wasn't over yet.[/QUOTE]

in all offense im pretty sure Kobe has missed way more than 26 game winners or tiers. Kobe has missed like 3 this year alone, back in his earlier years like right now of HS he was a team cancer at the end of games

remember the AIR ball in the 98 or 99 playoffs game 7 against Utah in OT to cost them the game.

that air ball also stands out in my mind.