Steroids in the NBA

[QUOTE=twolvesfan]steroids could make you a faster player and stronger which would help you a lot in rebounds. they could help you jump higher which would give you a higher chance to block shots. [B]please dont act like steroids wouldnt have any impact in the nba. [/B]look at shawn green, he is skinny and has hit a bunch of home runs in the past. 20 years ago nobody cared or thought steroids was a problem in the mlb but oh boy now a days it seems like everyone does them.[/QUOTE]

the word "impact" gets thrown around too carelessly on this board.

when you're talking about "impact" like someone is an impact player, it suggests that player has significant contributions to the team. and for a baseball player who is good enough to naturally hit only 25HR or so but suddenly hits about 40 or even close to 50HR if he took steroids, that is IMPACT form steroid effects.

but do you really believe that in basketball if a guy was naturally only good enough to grab 5 boards a game might suddenly be a monster rebounder??? that's just not happening. whatever change it has is not impact. impact is something major and significant. if you're an average rebounder, taking roids won't make you into an impact rebounder. you're still going to be about average or slightly above average. that's not what i would consider as "IMPACT."

[QUOTE=DCL]the word "impact" gets thrown around too carelessly on this board.

when you're talking about "impact" like someone is an impact player, it suggests that player has significant contributions to the team. and for a baseball player who is good enough to naturally hit only 25HR or so but suddenly hits about 40 or even close to 50HR if he took steroids, that is IMPACT form steroid effects.

but do you really believe that in basketball if a guy was naturally only good enough to grab 5 boards a game might suddenly be a monster rebounder??? that's just not happening. whatever change it has is not impact. impact is something major and significant. if you're an average rebounder, taking roids won't make you into an impact rebounder. you're still going to be about average or slightly above average. that's not what i would consider as "IMPACT."[/QUOTE]
its possible. with a lot of added strength it would be much easier to get rebounds.

[QUOTE=DCL]the word "impact" gets thrown around too carelessly on this board.

when you're talking about "impact" like someone is an impact player, it suggests that player has significant contributions to the team. and for a baseball player who is good enough to naturally hit only 25HR or so but suddenly hits about 40 or even close to 50HR if he took steroids, that is IMPACT form steroid effects.

but do you really believe that in basketball if a guy was naturally only good enough to grab 5 boards a game might suddenly be a monster rebounder??? that's just not happening. whatever change it has is not impact. impact is something major and significant. if you're an average rebounder, taking roids won't make you into an impact rebounder. you're still going to be about average or slightly above average. that's not what i would consider as "IMPACT."[/QUOTE]

Isn't basketball the most purely physical sport. Doesn't it rely the most on athleticism. So wouldn't that alone make the potential use of PEDs more compelling.

Really, people think Wade is using steroids?

I'm 6'4 as well and have 10lbs on Wade. I bench just over 330lbs as my max, and I haven't touched steroids in my life. Not even protein shakes.

Now I'm supposed to believe someone, who was way faster, jumps a bit higher and is possibly as strong as I am, uses roids, when he had the same running and jumping ability as a rookie? Only now he is stronger, though it's what happens when you go from 21 to 27. He is only 10lbs heavier then his rookie weight.

[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]Isn't basketball the most purely physical sport. Doesn't it rely the most on athleticism. So wouldn't that alone make the potential use of PEDs more compelling.[/QUOTE]

basketball is definitely one of the most physical and athletically reliant sports. despite this, basketball ability is actually more technique-driven than athletic.

in baseball, football, swimming, track, gymnastics, etc--sports in which steroids are generally pervasive--raw physical power and explosiveness is often involved in the most frequent applications of athletecism. pitching, hitting, throwing a ball, etc--are all skills that benefit heavily from an increase in power.

incredible amounts of raw power aren't applicable to shooting, passing, or dribbling, which are the fundamental skills in basketball.

this is why i brought up the risk vs reward component. if a guy goes "well, i could take this s**t and get stronger, and that could help me jump a little higher, or box out better, but it won't help my points, assists, or steals, won't help defense, rebounding, or blocks much, and can f**k up my career if people find out"--then he's less likely to juice than a guy in baseball who is going "this s**t can help my hitting, and that's half the game for me", or "this s**t can help my pitch speed, and that's the whole game for me".

[QUOTE=plowking]Really, people think Wade is using steroids?

I'm 6'4 as well and have 10lbs on Wade. I bench just over 330lbs as my max, and I haven't touched steroids in my life. Not even protein shakes.

Now I'm supposed to believe someone, who was way faster, jumps a bit higher and is possibly as strong as I am, uses roids, when he had the same running and jumping ability as a rookie? Only now he is stronger, though it's what happens when you go from 21 to 27. He is only 10lbs heavier then his rookie weight.[/QUOTE]

exactly.

at one point while i was a trainer by vocation, i put on 10 pounds of lean tissue over the course of a year, and i've never touched juice in my life.

a lot of how easy/hard it is to gain muscle boils down to where you're at in relation to your maximum natural potential. wade is still within his natural range, but he's getting closer to the top end. muscle gains will come more slowly now. if he put on 10 pounds of lean body mass in the next year from where he's at now, i might start looking at him a bit harder, but even 10 more pounds over the next two years is easily done at his dimensions.

[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous]Isn't basketball the most purely physical sport. Doesn't it rely the most on athleticism. So wouldn't that alone make the potential use of PEDs more compelling.[/QUOTE]
There isn't that much pressure in the NBA to bulk up though. Most players who clearly need to (Bosh, Durant etc.) voluntarily choose not to bulk up because it would affect their lateral quickness, mobility and body control/jumping ability. Baseball is a very static sport where the pitcher and batter are nailed to the plate. Adding extra mass while reducing your quickness and other athletic abilities isn't nearly as costly. I read an NBA/steroids related article and basically it said that MJ packed on weight when he went to baseball through a lot of weight lifting to increase power, but when he came back he wanted to shed it because it wasn't helping him at all.

I doubt if Lebron did steroids and went so far away from his natural body weight that he would be so agile and athletic. Same with Dwight. These guys have always been unnatural for their size, that's probably why they got into basketball in the first place.

[QUOTE=plowking]Really, people think Wade is using steroids?

I'm 6'4 as well and have 10lbs on Wade. I bench just over 330lbs as my max, and I haven't touched steroids in my life. Not even protein shakes.

Now I'm supposed to believe someone, who was way faster, jumps a bit higher and is possibly as strong as I am, uses roids, when he had the same running and jumping ability as a rookie? Only now he is stronger, though it's what happens when you go from 21 to 27. He is only 10lbs heavier then his rookie weight.[/QUOTE]
The speculation is only for how fast he healed. In the regular season he would look awful and the Heat shut him down but in the summer he was doing alleyoop windmills.

[QUOTE=Thorpesaurous][B]Isn't basketball the most purely physical sport. [/B] Doesn't it rely the most on athleticism. So wouldn't that alone make the potential use of PEDs more compelling.[/QUOTE]

well, we're on different premises on this notion because i do not believe basketball is the sport that is most-reliant on physicalities or pure athleticism, as you have stated.

not even close if you look at sports like track and field, weightlifting, or swimming. those pure event sports are way more reliant on physical capacities. all those 0.02 seconds or just 5-10 extra lbs make a world of difference. and steroids do produce a meaningful factor.

there's so many variables going on in basketball, and many physical areas can compensated for with just smarter plays and strategies. but of course, world class athleticim is advantageous, but it's not absolutely mandatory or guys like bird would never had dominated.

however, if you talk about sports like track and field or swimming, you NEED world class athleticism to compete, period. the primary factor in those sports is whether you're fast or not, or whether you're strong or not, etc. there's no way to compensate and be competitive if you lack those, period. there's just no way to get around the physical inferiority if you're slower/weaker than the other guy. so smarts, quick decision making, vision, technical skills, strategic plays and all the other non-physical stuff don't really change much for those sports like how they can do for basketball. this is why even slow overweight guys can still have a good time at the y if they have a deadly jumper, box out properly, and play some decent team defense. but if you're slow and overweight and try to compete in track and field or swimming, there's just no prayer of hope.

Lifting weights all year and eating right you can expect to ass about 3-5 pounds of muscle. If you gain 15 pounds that ain't all muscle, thats 5 pounds muscle 10 pounds fat, doesn't matter what you say.

5 pounds doesn't sound like a lot until you add it up. 25 pounds of muscle after 5 years. 50 pounds after 10.

I believe Lebron's is all natural.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Lifting weights all year and eating right you can expect to ass about 3-5 pounds of muscle. If you gain 15 pounds that ain't all muscle, thats 5 pounds muscle 10 pounds fat, doesn't matter what you say.

5 pounds doesn't sound like a lot until you add it up. 25 pounds of muscle after 5 years. 50 pounds after 10.

I believe Lebron's is all natural.[/QUOTE]

You see results quicker then that. You convert a lot more fat into muscle then 3-5lbs in a year, depending on where you start out.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Lifting weights all year and eating right you can expect to ass about 3-5 pounds of muscle. If you gain 15 pounds that ain't all muscle, thats 5 pounds muscle 10 pounds fat, doesn't matter what you say.

5 pounds doesn't sound like a lot until you add it up. 25 pounds of muscle after 5 years. 50 pounds after 10.

I believe Lebron's is all natural.[/QUOTE]
you can add alot more then that

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Lifting weights all year and eating right you can expect to ass about 3-5 pounds of muscle. If you gain 15 pounds that ain't all muscle, thats 5 pounds muscle 10 pounds fat, doesn't matter what you say.

5 pounds doesn't sound like a lot until you add it up. 25 pounds of muscle after 5 years. 50 pounds after 10.

I believe Lebron's is all natural.[/QUOTE]

Edward Norton did 30 in a few months.
Christian Bale gained 100 in six months while retaining a sub-10% BF.

Care to explain this.

Kevin Willis is the only guy I'd slightly suspect.

RoseCity07 was actually pretty accurate, although he didn't acknowledge the diminishing returns of muscle gains as you increase in size.

ed norton was able to gain a lot of weight because he started so small in the first place, and i promise you, 30 pounds of muscle in "a few months" is not humanly possible without juice.

also, christian bale's weight gains either came after his insane emaciation from the role he had in The Machinist, or they did not happen, even WITH steroids. 100 pounds in six months doesn't happen to a non-starved human being, even on juice. period. for that matter, 100 pounds in FOUR YEARS wouldn't happen without steroids unless it was rebound weight from being starved and dehydrated. or... five years.

seriously.

i hold 3 certifications as a personal trainer, i'm not talking out of my ass in saying that.


edited to laugh at this link, which would seem to be where JM got his awesome info:

[url]http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Hollywood-Actors-Gain-Muscle-For-Movie-Roles&id=742853[/url]

that stuff is bulls**t. believe me. i did this for a living.

if those claims were legit, Bale would have been walking around at 270+ pounds.

here's a pic of 270 pounds on someone near his height:

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_g93bcGvgWBo/SbP5SG3imhI/AAAAAAAAHDU/zfV4FfFBSB8/s400/MarkusRuhl-MD-Bernal-252.jpg[/img]

that's markus ruhl, and the dude pops dbol like skittles.

I think HGH would be more prevalent in the NBA than steroids, mainly for recuperative purposes. Both should be tested for a lot more frequently than they are now.

I'm 6'0.5" 195 lbs bench 330, don't use anything, don't even work out more than twice a week, and somehow, one of the greatest athletes in the NBA (Wade), who is 6'4 and 225 lbs can't get to that size without using something lol? That's a ****ing joke. People who are accusing certain players of this are the guys who can't attain that type of size and strength without using supplements and therefore can't believe it. These guys have world class trainers and nutritionists. They work out everyday and do stuff specifically designed for what they need to improve in the necessary areas for bball. I mean, I wouldn't be SURPRISED if they use natural supplements, like creatine or something, but even then, when they work out everyday like that with a trained pro, it isn't too far of a stretch to assume they could achieve such a physique. Steroids wouldn't even really be that handy for basketball. It adds a lot of bulk, which isn't really necessary or good for bball. It doesn't help with ligaments, tendons, etc. Maybe a center or PF, but not for somebody like Wade that needs to stay light and quick on their feet. I think accusing LBJ is also retarded. As you get older, you're naturally going to get bigger and stronger. It isn't like he was a small guy when he first game into the league anyways. He obviously hit the genetic lottery. Maybe it's just people trying to find new ways of bashing or hating, IDK, but it's dumb.

[QUOTE=Biddy77]exactly.

at one point while i was a trainer by vocation, i put on 10 pounds of lean tissue over the course of a year, and i've never touched juice in my life.

a lot of how easy/hard it is to gain muscle boils down to where you're at in relation to your maximum natural potential. wade is still within his natural range, but he's getting closer to the top end. muscle gains will come more slowly now. if he put on 10 pounds of lean body mass in the next year from where he's at now, i might start looking at him a bit harder, but even 10 more pounds over the next two years is easily done at his dimensions.[/QUOTE]

Since you were a trainer, let me ask you your opinion on this: do you agree that if Dwight Howard filled out his arms/chest/torso to match the size of his shoulders, he would be monstrous, as in Mr. Olympia monstrous? You can tell that even as muscular as he is, his frame can easily handle another 20-35 pounds of muscle with no problem.

[QUOTE=Juges8932]I'm 6'0.5" 195 lbs bench 330, don't use anything, don't even work out more than twice a week, and somehow, one of the greatest athletes in the NBA (Wade), who is 6'4 and 225 lbs can't get to that size without using something lol? That's a ****ing joke. People who are accusing certain players of this are the guys who can't attain that type of size and strength without using supplements and therefore can't believe it. These guys have world class trainers and nutritionists. They work out everyday and do stuff specifically designed for what they need to improve in the necessary areas for bball. I mean, I wouldn't be SURPRISED if they use natural supplements, like creatine or something, but even then, when they work out everyday like that with a trained pro, it isn't too far of a stretch to assume they could achieve such a physique. Steroids wouldn't even really be that handy for basketball. It adds a lot of bulk, which isn't really necessary or good for bball. It doesn't help with ligaments, tendons, etc. Maybe a center or PF, but not for somebody like Wade that needs to stay light and quick on their feet. I think accusing LBJ is also retarded. As you get older, you're naturally going to get bigger and stronger. It isn't like he was a small guy when he first game into the league anyways. He obviously hit the genetic lottery. Maybe it's just people trying to find new ways of bashing or hating, IDK, but it's dumb.[/QUOTE]


Some ISH posters are supermen. You are 195lbs and bench 330lbs?

I'm 235lbs, go to the gym 5 times a week and bench 330lbs as my max (4 times, at most).

I highly doubt you can do that at your weight and regime. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=plowking]Some ISH posters are supermen. You are 195lbs and bench 330lbs?

I'm 235lbs, go to the gym 5 times a week and bench 330lbs as my max (4 times, at most).

I highly doubt you can do that at your weight and regime. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Lol, I understand your doubt, especially coming from a poster online. Honestly, I am just pretty genetically gifted, one of those guys.

The thing about me is, when I first started working out, I did bench about 3 times a week for 3 months, so I established a good foundation, and that coupled with good genetics= now I can work out basically whenever. I'm also 20, so it helps being young young. It also helps that I have been doing basically the same thing since I was 17 (I don't want to be like huge), so my body is pretty established. I wouldn't be able to do it more than once. For me, max= most one time rep.

But it's cool, whatev lol.:cheers:

[QUOTE=Juges8932]Lol, I understand your doubt, especially coming from a poster online. Honestly, I am just pretty genetically gifted, one of those guys.

The thing about me is, when I first started working out, I did bench about 3 times a week for 3 months, so I established a good foundation, and that coupled with good genetics= now I can work out basically whenever. I'm also 20, so it helps being young young. It also helps that I have been doing basically the same thing since I was 17 (I don't want to be like huge), so my body is pretty established. I wouldn't be able to do it more than once. For me, max= most one time rep.

But it's cool, whatev lol.:cheers:[/QUOTE]

I just find it incredible that you can lift near double your weight, when you only lift 2 times a week.

Oh, is this free weights or machine assisted?

I just find it even more impressive seeing as you can bench more in terms of ratio to body weight then Ben Wallace can at his max, all with only 2 workouts a week.

[QUOTE=plowking]I just find it incredible that you can lift near double your weight, when you only lift 2 times a week.

Oh, is this free weights or machine assisted?

I just find it even more impressive seeing as you can bench more in terms of ratio to body weight then Ben Wallace can at his max, all with only 2 workouts a week.[/QUOTE]

All the weight I do with regards to chest is free weights. I always alternate heavy work outs with light every other time, ever since I started.
Heavy work out=
5x5 flat bench
5x5 incline bench
5x5 decline bench
5x10-15 butterflies (On flat bench with dumb bells)
Most of these are with barbells, but sometimes I'll do it with dumb bells to switch things up. Break= 2-3 min between sets. Sometimes less, sometimes more, just depends on my willingness to try hard that day.

Light work out=
5x15 on all the above types^ with 45 sec-1.5 min break

Bench Wallace also weighs mucccccccccccccch more, so getting a higher strength-to-weight ratio is going to be a lot harder for somebody of his size. I thought Ben Wallace benched 500? If so, then that's higher than me. Doesn't he weigh 240? If so, then that is much higher ratio than mine. Mine is what, 1.7 or so?

Again, I'm not saying I don't understand where you're coming from, it's hard to tell online and credibility is subjective really. I was just trying to contribute to the thread based off my personal experience with somebody like Wade, who has obviously hit the genetic lottery.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Since you were a trainer, let me ask you your opinion on this: do you agree that if Dwight Howard filled out his arms/chest/torso to match the size of his shoulders, he would be monstrous, as in Mr. Olympia monstrous? You can tell that even as muscular as he is, his frame can easily handle another 20-35 pounds of muscle with no problem.[/QUOTE]

to be conditioned the way he is and as muscular as a mister olympia contender, he'd have to gain a lot more than 20-35 pounds. quincy taylor (6'4") has gone on stage at 304 in tighter condition than dwight. allowing for his same rough bodyfat %, dwight would probably have to be in the neighborhood of 370 to match that. i'm just throwing out an estimate right now. kind of hung over from watching the blazers implode in the 4th Q to throw away any hopes of winning the series.

what a terrible f**king night.

here's quincy out of contest shape.

[img]http://www.criticalbench.com/images/quincytaylor2.jpg[/img]

and in contest shape (although he's holding water... looks 'smooth' compared to how he should be at that bf%):

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2259/1805160099_2a5956987c.jpg?v=0[/img]

Honestly if it was revealed LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard and other muscular studs took steroids it would not surprise me.

It is stunning to me that they got so big so quickly.

[QUOTE=JEFFERSON MONEY]
Kevin Willis is the only guy I'd slightly suspect.[/QUOTE]

Kevin Willis and Karl Malone as a Laker would be my suspects. They had so much muscle that those guys could rarely dunk and were barely getting up there for layups. I know they were old but those guys seemed like they were glued stuck to the ground.

[QUOTE=Biddy77]to be conditioned the way he is and as muscular as a mister olympia contender, he'd have to gain a lot more than 20-35 pounds. quincy taylor (6'4") has gone on stage at 304 in tighter condition than dwight. allowing for his same rough bodyfat %, dwight would probably have to be in the neighborhood of 370 to match that. i'm just throwing out an estimate right now. kind of hung over from watching the blazers implode in the 4th Q to throw away any hopes of winning the series.

what a terrible f**king night.

here's quincy out of contest shape.

[img]http://www.criticalbench.com/images/quincytaylor2.jpg[/img]

and in contest shape (although he's holding water... looks 'smooth' compared to how he should be at that bf%):

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2259/1805160099_2a5956987c.jpg?v=0[/img][/QUOTE]

Thanks. No, I know that 25-35 pounds of muscle wouldn't put him into the Mr. Olympia class at all. I was just saying that his frame can so easily support that extra muscle. His genetics are amazing. If he filled out his chest/arms/torso to match his shoulders, it'd be scary.

You cant always determine who is on roids or not by just looking at their body, for example when its comes to sports like cycling and swimming athletes have been caught using steroids but you would never be able to tell cause of their size and frame. I dont know much about roids but it doesnt seem you have to be bodybuilder huge to be on roids.

biddy77 my bad. I was playing Devil's Advocate and decided not to re-check the facts. It just seemed 3 - 5 lbs were way too low for 365 years of productivity in the gym.

I think when I was 15 or so I ballooned from 145-155 over the course of a half a spring and a summer. It was probably "natural" puberty growth alongsid This was w/o Whey, eating 'bout 3000 calories and it was low enough BF to see all six abs.

But 3-5 pounds of raw lean mass a year it just seems so friggin low. I'm talking about a strict regimine of good form squats, deadlifts, benches mixed in with the enough curls, military presses, lunges, shoulder shrugs to induce exceptional hypertrophy. That paired with a solid diet can assurely gain more.. esp for a tip-top athlete sans steroids?

Every single player that I dislike is on steroids, it's a fact.

Anyone here who thinks that NBA players aren't roided to the gills is just naive. YOU DO NOT I REPEAT YOU DO NOT necessarily get gigantic when you're on steroids. I have friends that either play or have played professionally in the three major sports. Take baseball as an example. Pitchers and infielders are notorious for taking steroids just for recovery. Not for bulking up but just so they can play at a high level. You mean to tell me that in the NBA in an 82 game season where guys like Iverson get tossed around like a rag doll, and guys like Shaq, Yao and Howard get fouled and hung on on every play there there isn't blatant steroid abuse going on there? Sorry but there is. One of my friends that played major league baseball told me that his steroid dealer said that the majority of his clients were...NBA players. Take that for what it's worth but that's what he said.

A lot of people in this thread aren't realizing how steriods work.

Steriods don't make your muscles bigger per se, what they do is significantly decrease recovery times - allowing you to work longer, more often and harder.

I do think there is steriod use is basketball due to how many games that are played over the course of a season. Players need to help their body recover.

A guy like D. Wade is definently suspect - his sudden bounce back from a number of very serious injuries is unprecedented.

[QUOTE=inclinerator]old picture on the abc pregame it showed lebron recently and he is way more ripped and bulkier[/QUOTE]

Lebron isn't that jacked. He looks jacked compared to most NBA players because most NBA players are long and lanky. I remember Boomer Esiason (former NFL) who is listed at 6-5 224 lbs, saying on WFAN (NY sports radio) that he saw Lebron at the airport once and he was "small". He said Lebron isn't as big as he looks on TV.

Lebron is a well known steroid junkie.

Can you imagine what the players in the 80s were doing?

Everything under the sun. There was essentially no testing for PEDs whatsoever.

Players in the 80s were juiced to the gills.

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