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[QUOTE=cotdt]He is clearly very talented. Yet he is a below-average point guard. Why?[/QUOTE]
psychology. he doesn't have it upstairs. the fact that time after time people refer to wasted talent, tells us all we need to know about what talent is and what talent is not. farmar has a great physical skill set (what we refer to as talent), but is lacking something in his psyche (that we consider outside talent).
Talent is atletic ability
Ive been wondering the same thing. When I asked people said it is a "natural overall skillset" or something like that. All these "talented" high school kids Im wondering what makes them talented?
[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]lacking something in his psyche (that we consider outside talent).[/QUOTE]
You do. I consider it talent. So after all I think Farmar is not that talented. He has great physical abilities, though.
[QUOTE]OhNoTimNoSho[/QUOTE]
Just wanted to let you know I liked your answer a lot. :applause:
talent - ball handling skills, shooting skills, decision-making skills, etc.
ability - being fast, jumping high, being strong, etc.
the x factor - determination, will to succeed, strive to be the best, etc.
carter had talent and ability, but IMO now lacks the x factor. there was at a time in his career (early-mid raptors days, early nets days) when he had that hunger. every now and then he'll show signs of that determination that he once had, but he never brings it with consistency anymore.
kobe has talent, SOMEWHAT of an ability, and DEFINITELY strives to be the best. i say he he has [I]somewhat[/I] of an ability because let's face it, athletic-wise he's no carter, but his talent and determination makes up for that lack of natural ability.
and of course, jordan had the trifecta. he had the talent, the physical ability, and the mentality to WANT to be the greatest. i will say skill-wise, i think kobe has an advantage over jordan, but the other aspects of jordan's game more than makes up for it. carter HAD what it took to be great, but lacked the will. carter could easily step out on the court on any given night and drop 30, but to do it with consistency and efficiency is a whole other thing.
..i just had to go there :lol
[QUOTE=halffttime]...i just had to go there :lol[/QUOTE]
It's OK, you did it in a nice way. :rockon:
I think talent is subject to opinion... Varying with every person, hence why there's been so many answers in this thread.
Natural 'Raw' Talent to me is just something you can try, and be better than average (or better than you should be given the situation). Take me and basketball. I never played until I was in 4th grade. I tried out for a rec team, and was the best, without training/work/instruction. It's something intrinsic that you either have or don't. (You could be genetically or environmentally predisposed to it)
Ability(to me), is interchangeable with talent. Ability is simply being able to do said thing. Without being able to do something, there won't be a talent. (If you're blind, you won't have the ability to become a talented sniper.)
Having a skill/talent/ability could stem from your natural talent, but it could also be manufactured. But improving/taking some talent to the next level has to be done with work ethic/perseverance/luck. Who knows, maybe I had the same talent as a young Vince Carter, but he worked to improve and I didn't.
Having heart/determination/work ethic, I wouldn't classify as a talent... But they are attributes needed to expand talents.
That's my take on it anyway.
[QUOTE=elementally morale]You [think that psyche is not part of talent]. I consider it talent. So after all I think Farmar is not that talented. He has great physical abilities, though.[/QUOTE]
Then there is no such thing as wasted talent? If talent is just the sum total of everything, then the best player in the league is the most talented, the worst player in the league is the least talented, and so forth. If someone can't make it as an NBA player, they are less talented than that.
Vince Carter (for example) did not waste his talent, he just didn't have enough talent?
I don't think many people use the term talent that way. If they did, no one would ever say a player wasted his talent, or anything like that. If not becoming an alcohol is a talent, then Vin Baker did not waste his talent by becoming an alcoholic. He actually just lived up to his talent, as that is what you'd expect to happen based on his set of talents. Vince Carter lived up to his talents the same way, because based on his lack of heart or determination or good decision making, he could never have been expected to do any more than he did.
If I am correct in stating your opinion this way, then it is an interesting thought, but you are trying to re-define the term talent to mean something other than what it means to the vast majority of people. I might be wrong in my attempt to define talent in the way that the world generally perceives it, but that is what I was attempting to do.
I believe that the vast majority of people happen to believe that it is possible to waste talent. So there must be some factor outside of talent that causes one to waste it. I am calling it psyche, but there might be a more precise term for it. You are bothered by the widely accepted use of the term talent (maybe bothered isn't the best word), and want to change the accepted meaning of the term to include every factor than can account for performance. Am I right about that?
[QUOTE=ProfessorMurder]Having a skill/talent/ability could stem from your natural talent, but it could also be manufactured. But improving/taking some talent to the next level has to be done with work ethic/perseverance/luck. Who knows, maybe I had the same talent as a young Vince Carter, but he worked to improve and I didn't.
Having heart/determination/work ethic, I wouldn't classify as a talent... But they are attributes needed to expand talents.
That's my take on it anyway.[/QUOTE]
I think that is the way people use the term talent. Some people are defining it differently, but when you ask a person whether player X is very talented or somewhat talented or not very talented for a NBA player, almost everyone will give you the same answer. And that answer would be based on your definition. If you ask how good a player is, you'll get a wider variety of answers and certainly the ranking of players based on talent will not match up with the ranking of players based on how good they are.
[QUOTE]I don't think many people use the term talent that way.[/QUOTE]
You are right.
But how do you use the terms 'space' and 'time'? I can assure you that the way most people use those terms is not the same a few scientists use them. I'm not sure about you, but many people would be surprised that time is not a 'given' and that it depends on speed.
So how people use a term is only important to me when I want to understand what people are talking about or when I want to tell them something in a way they do understand. But when I'm on my own thinking about something I don't care too much about people's opinions. I do before and after, but not while 'doing my thing'.
But you are right: not many people use the term 'talent' the way I do. That is the reason why I asked this question here. I wanted to know how you guys use the term.
[QUOTE]If I am correct in stating your opinion this way, then it is an interesting thought, but you are trying to re-define the term talent [/QUOTE]
correct
[QUOTE]
to mean something other than what it means to the vast majority of people.[/QUOTE]
for inner use, yes. In the sense that I would want to change the way people think of talent, no.
I hope that made sense.
Okay. Well, that wasn't totally clear by any of your other posts.
[QUOTE]Well, that wasn't totally clear by any of your other posts. [/QUOTE]
Of course not. If I tell you WHY I'm asking before you answer... that may change your answer. That I did not want in this case. So I gave you the info, only a bit later. :cheers:
[QUOTE=elementally morale]Of course not. If I tell you WHY I'm asking before you answer... that may change your answer. That I did not want in this case. So I gave you the info, only a bit later. :cheers:[/QUOTE]
true. i probably wouldn't have even posted if i knew that's what you were getting at. so i'm glad i didn't know earlier. :applause:
[QUOTE='Toine=MVP]true. i probably wouldn't have even posted if i knew that's what you were getting at. so i'm glad i didn't know earlier. :applause:[/QUOTE]
It made sense though.
I read many interesting viewpoints, PLUS you guys read many interesting viewpoints PLUS some of you had to make a bit of an effort to define something you use quite naturally.
I think it was great, and I'm happy for everyone's contribution. Yours as well.
1) There's no such thing as destiny. That's gets into the realm of fate, which is dangerously close to the man-made concept of the ill-fated idea of religion. [B]There is no god[/B].
2) Choosing what craft to hone your skills at is not a talent. I don't see how that's a serious question (I've seen you ask the question several times in this thread, "So person X choosing craft Y is a talent?" Insinuating that the act ifself of choosing that craft was a talent).
3) Luck, I'm willing to go with. People's bodies are made different. Some people's bones are more dense than others (a fact you can't change, unlike muscle mass), and some people's mindset is different that may make them work harder at certain things (mindset can be changed, but would take an external stimulus to trigger this event happening). In other words, I'm taking the long way to say that talent is a natural ability you possess, but I don't call it luck, it's nothing. If anything, call it coincidence, that's if you consider it a "coincidence" that that rock happens to be placed at this position on earth, as opposed to that position, or that leaf landed left of the tree, as opposed to right. I don't consider any of that as Luck or Coincidence, it simply just, is. Same as natural talent.
I view basketball talent differently than most people. I view it as an innate feel for the game, an innate creativity. Others view it more like "athletic talent" (e.g., VC, Lebron, Shaq etc.). There's some overlap there, but, for example, Larry Bird ranks VERY high on my "most talented players ever" list, but he would barely rate on others' lists because they're almost exclusively talking about athletic talent. Guys like MJ, Barkley, Magic, Bird, Dr. J represent the pinnacle of basketball talent for me, while for others guys like Carter/Lebron/Shaq would. Size is the one athletic/physical attribute I can see making a case for when discussing "talent," but I tend to not look at or care about stuff like leaping ability, speed etc. That stuff helps, but that's not "talent" - that's stuff you were born with. Basketball is a creative game; the most talented players are those who evince the greatest level of creativity imo.
I look at all of the things that seem to come naturally to a player, including physical attributes.
For example, the fact that footwork, post moves and passing skills came natural to Shaq at 7'2", 340 along with a great basketball IQ and incredible athleticism makes him rank among the most talented players ever IMO.
But perhaps the most talented player ever is Wilt because he showed at various times that he could do just about anything. Whether it was scoring at will with easy dunks, effortless unorthodox shots like his finger rolls, controlling the glass with a natural feel for rebounding matched by very few, blocking almost any shot he wanted or making Sabonis-esque passes with ease later in his career. Then you consider the size, strength and athleticism.
And yes, Bird ranks very high and the list, as does Magic Johnson. They had a feel for the game and did certain things that you can't learn too frequently. Particularly with their passing and in particular, Bird who made some of the most difficult shots.
Jordan obviously is high up as well because of his athleticism, feel for the game and the skill to do what he wanted. For example, nobody improvised better in the air than Jordan and you can't teach that. He just reacted better than just about anyone and when he was challenged he couldn't do something, he did it.
Guys like Sheed and VC are high up there as well, but I'm not sure they're as high as the guys I mentioned. Sheed, for example had all of the skills and athletic ability, but he either did have the desire or IQ to use it best. Similar to Carter, but I think Sheed wasted even more potential. He could do everything. He had a very good post up game, great length and defensive instincts, great shooting touch and range, solid passing ability and excellent athleticism.
Based on talent, Carter should have atleast been on Kobe's level, but he was never as talented as Jordan. Michael clearly had a better feel for the game, particularly defensive instincts and he had more speed and quickness.
can someone explain to me how VC showed more athletic ability than kobe? i'm not being a sarcastic **** here. i'm just clueless.
nice thread great comments... this is ISH right?
to me talent is something that is fluid, liquid constantly changing depending on it's owner's use of it..
as an example kobe has talent, he had it from the day he picked up a basketball most likely, but he also groomed that talent, refined reshapped it as his body grew and continues to do so even today, his game is ever evolving to make the greatest use of his athletic and learned basketball skills... talent is a combination of things, natural, learned and critiqued, but to me it is not anyone thing, it is the combination of things the end product but an end product that will be different under different situations/inputs.. i don't think we can define talent in any one way..
as mentioned before Bird had talent so did Magic... two totally different games two totally different players with different skills but both with incredible talent
[QUOTE=elementally morale]Are you sure that things like mentality and athletic ability cannot be worked on, especially when one is younger, brah? Is the ABILITY to work on 'raw talent' considered TALENT itself?
Fill me in, brah.[/QUOTE]
ay ya dont get it but its okay brah. imma explain it to ya.
Everybody got raw talent for everything brah, just not in the same amount. Even da worst singer has talent to sing, just not as much as mariah carey.
[QUOTE=globarticles]ay ya dont get it but its okay brah. imma explain it to ya.
Everybody got raw talent for everything brah, just not in the same amount. Even da worst singer has talent to sing, just not as much as mariah carey.[/QUOTE]
Thx, brah. I always knew I had talent in figure skating, even though I really su(k at it. But it's nice of you to confirm I have talent. Not as much as the average person on Earth, but it still is TALENT. I knew this, I knew this. I'm so relieved now. Thx, brah.
:banana:
[QUOTE=Solid Snake]1) There's no such thing as destiny. That's gets into the realm of fate, which is dangerously close to the man-made concept of the ill-fated idea of religion. [B]There is no god[/B].[/QUOTE]
Well, prove it.
Not here, but I can make you a thread where you can show me proof there is no god. You will have a tough time, because I will show you in 5 easy steps that believing there is no god is just another belief and in fact believing in man-made science is just another belief (even though it is a different approach).
I'm a scientist by training, but I can debate that god-thingy with you. I also have no god.... errr... dog in this fight, but to make a bold statement like you just did is a bit premature as far as our knowledge as humans is concerned.
elementally morale is the most talented poster on ISH's NBA forum :D
[QUOTE]Insinuating that the act ifself of choosing that craft was a talent[/QUOTE]
What makes it insinuation?
It is decision making. You need a level-head as well as some intuition to make it work. You have to take an in-depth look at the details but you cannot lose sight of the big picture. Decision making is not easy, especially if there is more than one thing to choose from. :oldlol:
GMs had better be talented at decision-making, right? Coaches had better be talented at running a team, right? Choosing which player to play when, which play to run when... deciding all that is some kind of talent.
When deciding the same things about yourself (i.e.: decision-making) why cannot that be called talent?
great thread e m . . . . i hope you're not done with it as
i'd greatly appreciate your response to the following:
what is talent? . . . . is it the same as athletic ability?
athleticism to me is running , jumping and throwing
everybody can run , but everybody can't run "fast"
everybody can jump , but everybody can't jump "high"
everybody can throw , but everybody can't throw "far"
what makes usain bolt faster than everyone else
what made jordan jump higher than everyone else
what made elway throw farther than everyone else
is the difference talent level? . . . what about
run fast and change directions
jump high and hang in the air
throw far and hit a target
many claim that usain's the world's greatest athlete
. . . . . . . . no doubt he's insanely talented
but what if he had to run while dribbling a ball thru traffic
what if he then had to throw the ball and hit a moving target
and to finish the event , he then had to vault over a 10 foot pole
i know , , they're not answers
just questions and things that came to mind
for reasons that i'll elaborate upon your response , my initial
answer to the question "what is talent" . . . . i say it's
.
.
.
Hidden
Rasheed Wallace = most talented basketball player ever
[QUOTE=IInvented]Rasheed Wallace = most talented basketball player ever[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your contribution.
cool enough e m
i'd still like to elaborate on this topic especially after last nite when
my son (soph) played his 1st varsity game , his 1st game ever
running the point and played extremely well . . . to the point
i feel a lil prophetic because he did things i'd never seen
him do before , , , obviously he's been hiding talent
funnily
as he was leaving for school this morning he received a text from
state champ , crosstown rival and the soon-to-be LA City POY
Dwayne Polee Jr telling him . . ."you're losing your next game"
kid is like my nephew . . . i played against his dad and his uncle
graduated from my alma mater a year ahead of me . . . now
if y'all wanna see talent youtube the name D P Jr and look
for the hilite reel "mattsballislife" or som'n like that
kid is rediculous , , , , , has stupid hops
anyway , the reason i say talent is hidden is because while you
may be looking at the end result where it's on full nba display
somebody or some thing (beit coaching or competition)
had to bring it to the surface . . . well i coach at the
level where that talent gets brought to the surface
high schools , colleges and pros simply reap the benefits
a guy that can run fast (talent) can run even faster if taught
the proper technique (skill) . . . . a guy with bounce could
jump a lot higher and longer if given the proper training
perfect example in closing , anyone with ath.ability can do it
i know because i taught it to my son and he's no leaper
by any stretch . . . . i'ma tell you a simple way to
jump , adjust your body , and hang in the air
in other words , i'ma show you a way to fly
.
dribble from the wing into a reverse layup
do it again , but this time when you plant your foot to leap
STOP and HOLD that pose . . . your jump foot should be
planted and ready to explode up and your raised knee
should be flexed just a bit above your waist . . . .
now start over , only this time when you plant your foot and
explode off the ground . . . as you approach your apex
bring the opposite knee to the same level as your
raised knee (like a seated position) and force
yourself to glide from one side to the other
man , i kid you not , i taught my son this a couple of years ago
he's been killing folks with not only the hanging reverse layups
but the jump , absorb contact and finish front side as well
with polee jr on the schedule twice this year , he's definitely
going to need it cause he know dwayne will text message
that crap into the seats and tell him about it afterwards
.
.
i know how folks are today so i've contemplated bringing my son
to the board for a long time now for fear of bragging or jinxing
i'd always said once someone other than myself mention his
name i'd do it , but even then i neglected to do so . . . .
but after last nite i just said fug it . . if you guys are interested
i'd gladly share with you his progression thru high school
that you can follow him and polee at maxpreps.com
Nice thread, elementallymorale.
I think there is so much more to talent than natural athletic ability. People can't convince me that Josh Smith is more talented than Larry Bird. Yeah, jumping is a cool talent, but what about hand-eye coordination, timing, court awareness, etc.?
Just look at pure shooters. Some guys practice for hours on end and can't make a jumpshot to save their lives. Other guys haven't shot in years and they can shoot better than 90% of basketball players. I don't know how to qualify that talent, but there is definitely some type of talent there.
[QUOTE=aau]cool enough e m
i'd still like to elaborate on this topic especially after last nite when
my son (soph) played his 1st varsity game , his 1st game ever
running the point and played extremely well . . . to the point
i feel a lil prophetic because he did things i'd never seen
him do before , , , obviously he's been hiding talent
funnily
as he was leaving for school this morning he received a text from
state champ , crosstown rival and the soon-to-be LA City POY
Dwayne Polee Jr telling him . . ."you're losing your next game"
kid is like my nephew . . . i played against his dad and his uncle
graduated from my alma mater a year ahead of me . . . now
if y'all wanna see talent youtube the name D P Jr and look
for the hilite reel "mattsballislife" or som'n like that
kid is rediculous , , , , , has stupid hops
anyway , the reason i say talent is hidden is because while you
may be looking at the end result where it's on full nba display
somebody or some thing (beit coaching or competition)
had to bring it to the surface . . . well i coach at the
level where that talent gets brought to the surface
high schools , colleges and pros simply reap the benefits
a guy that can run fast (talent) can run even faster if taught
the proper technique (skill) . . . . a guy with bounce could
jump a lot higher and longer if given the proper training
perfect example in closing , anyone with ath.ability can do it
i know because i taught it to my son and he's no leaper
by any stretch . . . . i'ma tell you a simple way to
jump , adjust your body , and hang in the air
in other words , i'ma show you a way to fly
.
dribble from the wing into a reverse layup
do it again , but this time when you plant your foot to leap
STOP and HOLD that pose . . . your jump foot should be
planted and ready to explode up and your raised knee
should be flexed just a bit above your waist . . . .
now start over , only this time when you plant your foot and
explode off the ground . . . as you approach your apex
bring the opposite knee to the same level as your
raised knee (like a seated position) and force
yourself to glide from one side to the other
man , i kid you not , i taught my son this a couple of years ago
he's been killing folks with not only the hanging reverse layups
but the jump , absorb contact and finish front side as well
with polee jr on the schedule twice this year , he's definitely
going to need it cause he know dwayne will text message
that crap into the seats and tell him about it afterwards
.
.
i know how folks are today so i've contemplated bringing my son
to the board for a long time now for fear of bragging or jinxing
i'd always said once someone other than myself mention his
name i'd do it , but even then i neglected to do so . . . .
but after last nite i just said fug it . . if you guys are interested
i'd gladly share with you his progression thru high school
that you can follow him and polee at maxpreps.com[/QUOTE]
Nice post. I felt it was very helpful and I wanted to ask your advice on like footwork and such. I would consider myself quite an athletic player (not in a cocky way) but in game situations I fail to use it. I find myself playing way below the rim and not finishing consistently. I am 5-10 i dont know my vert but I got my first dunk like a week ago. Have any tip on using my athleticism in games? Thanks.
bump
just because i still find this topic interesting
One more bump. I'm curious what you guys think about it now.
One more bump. I'd like to know what you guys think of this now.
This is interesting i guess its just the natural ability i don't think athleticism and skills have anything related to talent. If you take a bunch a kids that don't how to play basketball there is going to be some players that stand out these players have natural basketball instincts court vision, first step, good footwork things that can not be taught. Why is lebron james so much better than josh smith theres no clear advantage lebrons more of a basketball player. Two other things that i think are related to talent are natural finishing ability just having a good touch around the net and ball handling i know you can work but theres players that look so much better at handling the ball there just smooth.
Some people are physically gifted and that's a talent..
There's something more important though.. most NBA players have been playing from a very young age. When kids practice (in any sport, at every level) there are always 1 or 2 that stand out. In some cases they just practice harder and put more effort into playing the game.. but in other cases they just have 'it' - They have great courtvision and they can find the open man or they know how to position themselves for the rebound. They just pick up things quicker than the other kids or excel in some parts of the game. This is talent.
Why is a player like Love or Howard already a great rebounder when he enters the league? They worked on their rebounding from a young age, yes.. but a lot of players have right? They also have the physical attributes and a feel for where to position themselves. More so than other kids, players. They just have 'it'. Rebounding is one of their talents.
Talent alone will not get you that rebound though, you have to fight for that board.. Effort, determination and hard work is very important too.
Vince has all the talent in the world. He's physically gifted, has a good feel for the game. He could (can) do it all... at a high level too. We all know it.. seen it. right? Something is just not there though, the last piece is missing and it's the determination, the confidence, something. But the talent was definitely always there.
Are you guys sure that a certain mindset cannot be regarded as talent? After all, not all mindsets are teachable, especially after a certain age.
[QUOTE=globarticles]ay ya dont get it but its okay brah. imma explain it to ya.
Everybody got raw talent for everything brah, just not in the same amount. Even da worst singer has talent to sing, just not as much as mariah carey.[/QUOTE]
sweet avey:cheers:
[QUOTE=elementally morale]Are you guys sure that a certain mindset cannot be regarded as talent? After all, not all mindsets are teachable, especially after a certain age.[/QUOTE]
wiki
[QUOTE]Talent means the skill that someone has quite naturally to do something that is hard[/QUOTE]
Going by that definition, I'd say yes, having discipline is a talent. Staying disciplined is hard for most people, but some just have it in them... It can be taught, but only to a certain extent.
[QUOTE=artificial]Talent I would say is the ability to do some things exactly how they are supposed to be done, and do so naturally. Whether it's with effort or not, practice or not, that's not so important IMO.
[/QUOTE]
I think that pretty much sums it up.