so he points out lebron makes those around him better but only talks about passing really.. not wanting to take the time to look it up i ask, who on the cavs or lakers is having their best season ever or showing continued growth on the court?
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so he points out lebron makes those around him better but only talks about passing really.. not wanting to take the time to look it up i ask, who on the cavs or lakers is having their best season ever or showing continued growth on the court?
[QUOTE=gts]so he points out lebron makes those around him better but only talks about passing really[/QUOTE]
LeBron probably is the better passer of the two, but # of assists is not a good way to show that, as in the triangle assists are well distributed (and low) for any particular player, and Kobe is the leader in that category on the Lakers.
Thorpe prefers LeBron and it's okay with me, but the way he goes after the issue is a bit 'meh'.
You can't call someone a better jumpshooter based on stats in the first month and a half of the season.. by this measure, Trevor Ariza was the best 3pt shooter in the league since he shot like 48% in the playoffs. Is Lebron a better 3pt shooter than Ray Allen? He's shooting a better percentage so far..
[QUOTE=elementally morale]LeBron probably is the better passer of the two, but # of assists is not a good way to show that, as in the triangle assists are well distributed (and low) for any particular player, and Kobe is the leader in that category on the Lakers.
[B]Thorpe prefers LeBron and it's okay with me, but the way he goes after the issue is a bit 'meh'[/B].[/QUOTE]
well you knew which way it would swing that right off the bat when he writes
[QUOTE=Thorpe][B]Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron[/B]. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best.
[B]My task is to deliver a verdict using statistics [/B]and on-the-court evidence[/QUOTE].
he whiffs on [I]"On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."[/I]
[QUOTE=elementally morale]The text is kinda allright, but why do you need to give out points at the end of each section? It would work just as well with the text, and then at the end of it all the writer (Thorpe) could have concluded that because of what was written he goes with LeBron.
[B]Thopre knew well at the beginning who he has as a winner, so why pretending he was just giving out points and then points 'gave' a winner. Not true.[/B] Thorpe thinks LeBron is better and there is no shame in that.[/QUOTE]
BINGO.
"oh surprise, Lebon leads by 2 points!" give me a break...
[QUOTE=gts]
he whiffs on [I]"On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."[/I][/QUOTE]
The article is well worth it for that little tid bit alone. I often hear Kobe detractors say that its not true that most NBA players think he is the best player on the planet.
I ****ing hate when people say best player on the planet. Maybe he is the best player in the NBA BUT NOT IN THE f-cking planet. Europe basketeball Euroleague and NBA are very very different so as I said about a million times..
If one player is very good or the best in the NBA it doesnt mean he would be very good or especially the best in the euroleague and vice versa.
[QUOTE=Cermet]I ****ing hate when people say best player on the planet. Maybe he is the best player in the NBA BUT NOT IN THE f-cking planet. Europe basketeball Euroleague and NBA are very very different so as I said about a million times..
If one player is very good or the best in the NBA it doesnt mean he would be very good or especially the best in the euroleague and vice versa.[/QUOTE]
lol I'm sure an average player in the NBA would dominate in the euroleague.
[QUOTE=Jello]lol I'm sure an average player in the NBA would dominate in the euroleague.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. See: Brandon Jennings, Von Wafer.
On topic, I think Lebron is better... but it's close. If Lebron's jumpshot was more consistent (he goes on streaks where he makes like 6 of 7, then misses 7 of 8... it's actually a lot like Shaq's streaky free throw shooting), if he had a reliable post up game that he went to often, and if he didn't make 2 or 3 "WTF are you doing?" decisions per game (Kobe sometimes does this too), I would say that Lebron is easily the best player. He has the tools to be the consensus best player in the game, but he's not there yet.
This Article reeks of "these players have to be great at everything because they are the best,etc......"
How do you give Kobe a 9 in transition?
Lebron is a top ten fast break player EVER. Kobe should have gotten a 6 or something.
[QUOTE=phoenix18]This Article reeks of "these players have to be great at everything because they are the best,etc......"
How do you give Kobe a 9 in transition?
Lebron is a top ten fast break player EVER. Kobe should have gotten a 6 or something.[/QUOTE]
exactly LOL...this cracked me up as well - Kobe close to Bron in transition game?:roll:
[QUOTE=Jello]lol I'm sure an average player in the NBA would dominate in the euroleague.[/QUOTE]
Please dont make a fool out yourself ok...
[QUOTE=phoenix18]This Article reeks of "these players have to be great at everything because they are the best,etc......"
How do you give Kobe a 9 in transition?
Lebron is a top ten fast break player EVER. Kobe should have gotten a 6 or something.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly the problem with the point system. You may be right, but for the sake of an argument, let's say that Kobe receives 1 point for the transition game and LeBron 10. Questions:
1) Does LeBron winning it 10 to 1 make him 10 times more efficient in transition? Does it mean Kobe will score 4 transition points a game and LeBron 40?
2) Provided LeBron leads Kobe 10 to 1 in the transition game, and also let's imagine Kobe wins all the other categories... that would still make LeBron the winner in this system, despite him winnin (hypothetically) only that 1 category. It's like saying Howard is a lot better than Nash, because he beats him in rebounding 10 to 1. Howard may be better, but not because of that. (And I don't think he is, but that's a different issue.)
So you made a pretty good point: this system with the constant 10 to 9 results is even more pointless (pun intended).
[QUOTE=cotdt]Even by ESPN's own criteria, how can you say that Lebron makes his teammates better? When he does his 1-man-team thing his teammates just stand to the side and get cold. This happened in the Orlando series. Whereas Kobe spends the first half of the game facilitating so that he can get his teammates involved. Kobe never holds the ball for more than 2 seconds just dribbling, something Lebron does all the time. ESPN is too prone to a player's reputation rather than watching the actual game.
And Lebron makes more long 2's than Kobe so he's a better shooter than Kobe now? That's ridiculous. Over half of Lebron's shots are long 2's, that's just a sign of bad shot selection. Everyone knows that long 2's are the lowest percentage shot. Lebron is also not as well guarded as Kobe at the perimeter, his defenders keep more distance between them since they are only concerned about his drives. You can say that Ariza last season was a better shooter than Kobe too, but put Ariza in the same situation as Kobe and now? 38% FG.
Another point. Lebron has the 2nd highest turnover rate in the league, how is he a better passer than Kobe? The assist numbers don't tell the whole story, assists are just proportional to how often you have the ball in your hands. This season Kobe shares the ball more than in past seasons, yet his assist numbers went down.[/QUOTE]
Let me get this straight:
He averages more assists than Kobe, and is top 10 in the league, yet he doesn't get his teammates involved.
Then, all he does is stand around dribbling for all of the game (he has possession apparently for 48 minutes) and yet you question why his turnover rate is high. It's .5 higher than Kobe last time I checked, yet he holds the ball on every possession. Doesn't it make sense?
What is your basis behind this being the most Kobe has shared the ball? He's taking MORE shots this season; especially while Gasol was out. Furthermore, while Gasol has been in, Kobe has increased his assists by a considerable amount.
If you don't believe me, check his averages before and after Gasol.
Never understood this 'making your teammates better' myth. If he makes his teammates better, why ya'll complaining 'bout how he got no help in the Playoffs last year? Isn't he supposed to be making his teammates better? Sure didn't make Mo Williams better. :roll:
[QUOTE]If he makes his teammates better, why ya'll complaining 'bout how he got no help in the Playoffs last year?[/QUOTE]
On a rather technical note, if I am making my teammates better (they are not good, but I make them decent) and then I recieve help 'from them'... I can conclude that I helped myself, and the set of teammates was just a middleman.
It is a dangerous way of thinking, but I'm not sure players who are not 'getting it' early in thier careers don't think along the lines presented above. 'Let's make my teammates better so that they can help me more in the end, shall we'.
It is a philosophy that won't get you anywhere. You have to help your teammates but also LET THEM be who they are, so that they can help you via their own strengths and not something you helped them achieve in the first place.
Does it make any sense? I'm not sure... but I understand myself... I think. :oldlol:
they are both great, but what separates them are championships, and kobe has 4, lebron has 0, the lakers are the favorites to win again this year and maybe even the next
[QUOTE=elementally morale]On a rather technical note, if I am making my teammates better (they are not good, but I make them decent) and then I recieve help 'from them'... I can conclude that I helped myself, and the set of teammates was just a middleman.
It is a dangerous way of thinking, but I'm not sure players who are not 'getting it' early in thier careers don't think along the lines presented above. 'Let's make my teammates better so that they can help me more in the end, shall we'.
It is a philosophy that won't get you anywhere. You have to help your teammates but also LET THEM be who they are, so that they can help you via their own strengths and not something you helped them achieve in the first place.
Does it make any sense? I'm not sure... but I understand myself... I think. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
I understand you. The more you give to your teammates, the more you receive back. That's why you gotta help their game in practice and share the ball with them in real games. Players play better when they play with Kobe, like Ariza, Brown, Gasol, etc. Anyone who plays with Kobe sees their FG% go way up.
Congrats LeBron, you've been named Best Player by David Thorpe :rockon:
:oldlol: @ lebron being a better perimeter shooter.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]:oldlol: @ lebron being a better perimeter shooter.[/QUOTE]
No, he's not a better perimeter shooter this year; he just takes more threes than Kobe, makes more, and at a higher %.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
So seriously... am I the only one that sees that ...
Being voted #1 unanimously by my peers is >>>>>> than being voted #1 by a few ESPN journalists and a bunch of NBA fans
Just curious.
Does anyone else think Lebron reads that article and just cannot get past the line "Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."?
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]No, he's not a better perimeter shooter this year; he just takes more threes than Kobe, makes more, and at a higher %.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:[/QUOTE]
So? It's been 25 games. It's not a large enough sample size. Kobe has shot better from three every single year. Besides, Kobe is a considerably better FT and mid-range shooter. LBJ being a better shooter than Kobe is laughable. :roll:
Kobe is the better mid shooter, Lebron is the better player since last year.
Kobe is the best player in the world. Comfortably, as well.
And the article lost all credibility at Lebron is the better shooter. Since when? His 3 pt shot is the only thing better this year. Even that at the end of the season won't be the case.
I won't bother arguing the rest, but Kobe once again has proved he's the best in the world, followed by Lebron and then Wade.
As much as I praised Kobe early in the season I don't really like his approach lately. Even with a finger injury he's still taking a ton of shots, he's shooting a lot early in the game and doing that with a ton of scorers on his team, including Bynum who could benefit from some more touches. I did like his approach vs OKC, though. He let his teammates get a lot of touches early and he took over and dominated the game later.
But I have to wonder why he's shooting so much? I'd think it'd be better to be a bit more passive with the nagging injuries. It's a long season, he's had a long career and it wouldn't hurt to get Bynum some more shots. Holding back his scoring a bit helped last season in the long run and that was with less offensive firepower around him.
And this debate is very difficult. Lebron is just so dominant individually as we saw in the 2009 playoffs, but I love Kobe's post game and mid-range game. I'd give Kobe the edge as the scorer, shooter, post player, defender and clutch player. Lebron easily has the edge for rebounding, passing/playmaking and driving to the basket though. Lebron's advantage in those categories is more noticeable than Kobe's in the others(except for post play where he kills Lebron), but it depends what you value more.
[QUOTE=plowking]I won't bother arguing the rest, but Kobe once again has proved he's the best in the world, followed by Lebron and then Wade.[/QUOTE]
I can't put Wade top 3 until he starts playing at his '06 or '09 level again, or atleast close. As of now i'd have to put Howard and Paul ahead of him. Durant is having a better season too, but better overall player is up for debate.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I can't put Wade top 3 until he starts playing at his '06 or '09 level again, or atleast close. As of now i'd have to put Howard and Paul ahead of him. Durant is having a better season too, but better overall player is up for debate.[/QUOTE]
However you put it, I'm not too fussed. Speaking strictly in terms of Kobe and Lebron, its Kobe.
For whatever reason Kobe's teammates have career years in FG% when they play with him and LeBron's seem to consistently let him down. And yet when people compare the two, LeBron gets credit for making his teammates better and Kobe gets dinged for having great support.
Kobe is better at what he does (scoring 2 guard) then LeBron is at what he does (all-around 3/force in the paint) but what LeBron does is A LOT more valuable than what Kobe does.
Anyone who thinks a 2-guard who shoots outside jump-shots and can guard perimeter players is more valuable to a basketball team than a 3/4 who dominates the lane and can guard 4 positions has a fundamental philosophical disagreement about the game of basketball with me. There's really no point in arguing; we're just watching different games.
LeBron shut Evans completely down, a guy Kobe would have major issues with.
I'm not even going to be a d*ck here, but how can anyone give Kobe the edge in scoring and defense?
C'mon, the time has come to accept greatness for what it is. LeBron scores the same ppg average as Kobe on less shots a game. Significantly less.
People need to start using facts, man. I'm sorry, but Durant torches Kobe, gets him foul trouble. Probably could have fouled him out. The next night, LeBron absolutely suffocated Evans in the last three minutes and OT. Kobe defended with bluster and over-exaggerating defensive stances which put him in poor position to react to Durant's shot or dribble drive. LeBron on the other hand, stayed low on Tyreke and gave him space on the dribble that he knew he could make up if Tyreke raised for the jumper.
How does this translate into Kobe being the better defender? Cavs had noone to check Evans. No one. Kobe isn't even their go-to stopper on D.
Kobe better defender than LeBron?
This is prime example of people just making sh*t up.
[QUOTE=Mor'Fiyah]So seriously... am I the only one that sees that ...
Being voted #1 unanimously by my peers is >>>>>> than being voted #1 by a few ESPN journalists and a bunch of NBA fans
Just curious.
Does anyone else think Lebron reads that article and just cannot get past the line "Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."?[/QUOTE]
All of this bluster and no one can really address this point? If Lebron is obviously better than Kobe then why would the actual players (most of whom are not even friends with Kobe) all pick him as the best player in the game? Wouldn't they have the best perspective on this? Wouldn't they be in the best position to judge? Am I off my rockers for thinking its that simple?
[QUOTE=plowking]Kobe is the best player in the world. Comfortably, as well.[/QUOTE]
I'm curious to know how you came to this conclusion. Because I vaguely remember you saying the exact same thing about LeBron a few weeks ago :confusedshrug:
I'm sorry but the slobbage ESPN just gave Lebron is ridiculous. Chris Brousarrd or however you spell his name who I "Had" alot of respect for is just suckin Labrizzy's nuts, saying that if they switched teams the Lakers would be close to 70 win's and the Cavs would just be a mere playoff team and wouldn't be competing againts the Magic & Boston's of the world is flat out stupid.. let Lebron grind it out in the west for a season and see how he doesn't look so mighty. Oh yea btw Lebron & Kobe's playmaking ability is alot closer then people think.. watch the game's people, just don't look at stats.
[QUOTE=The GM]I'm sorry but the slobbage ESPN just gave Lebron is ridiculous. Chris Brousarrd or however you spell his name who I "Had" alot of respect for is just suckin Labrizzy's nuts, saying that if they switched teams the Lakers would be close to 70 win's and the Cavs would just be a mere playoff team and wouldn't be competing againts the Magic & Boston's of the world is flat out stupid.. let Lebron grind it out in the west for a season and see how he doesn't look so mighty. Oh yea btw Lebron & Kobe's playmaking ability is alot closer then people think.. watch the game's people, just don't look at stats.[/QUOTE]
LeBron on the Lakers squad would brake the 72 win mark. That is legit. Kobe on Cleveland would be a 48ish win team. However whose better? Kobe. You a fool if you think LBJ wouldn't be averaging at least 12 ast a game on that LAL team. Prolly a triple double even seeing how Bynum hardly grabs any rebounds.
[QUOTE=plowking]Kobe is the best player in the world. Comfortably, as well.
And the article lost all credibility at Lebron is the better shooter. Since when? His 3 pt shot is the only thing better this year. Even that at the end of the season won't be the case.
I won't bother arguing the rest, but Kobe once again has proved he's the best in the world, followed by Lebron and then Wade.[/QUOTE]
You are the king of posting confidently - as if everyone is supposed to believe you - without ever having proof. The post above is emotion-laden:
"I won't argue the rest.." - why?
"Kobe has proven he's the best..." - how?
"...followed by..." - as if that is the order written in the Bible
"Comfortably." - yah, right...a lot of people believe that
LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%
And you post that Lebron is only better at shooting the 3. It's just not true.
Lebron tells everyone that Kobe is the best player in the league, and Lebron fans - many of them - feel the same way. It's just sad that Kobe fans' lack of confidence causes them to shoot down any facts, theories, etc. which suggest LBJ is better at anything.
[QUOTE=sixer6ad]You are the king of posting confidently - as if everyone is supposed to believe you - without ever having proof. The post above is emotion-laden:
"I won't argue the rest.." - why?
"Kobe has proven he's the best..." - how?
"...followed by..." - as if that is the order written in the Bible
"Comfortably." - yah, right...a lot of people believe that
LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%
And you post that Lebron is only better at shooting the 3. It's just not true.
Lebron tells everyone that Kobe is the best player in the league, and Lebron fans - many of them - feel the same way. It's just sad that Kobe fans' lack of confidence causes them to shoot down any facts, theories, etc. which suggest LBJ is better at anything.[/QUOTE]
Ever hear of a dunk? Its a 2 point FG. But its not perimeter shooting. I will let you in on a little secret. Lebron ONLY has a higher percentage from 2 because he has more dunks than Kobe. Kobe shoots better than Lebron everywhere on the court except behind the three point line and right at the rim. People have posted up the breakdown. Lebron is not a better shooter than Kobe any more than he is a better shooter than Ray Allen or Dirk.
[QUOTE=The_Yearning]LeBron on the Lakers squad would brake the 72 win mark. That is legit. Kobe on Cleveland would be a 48ish win team. However whose better? Kobe. You a fool if you think LBJ wouldn't be averaging at least 12 ast a game on that LAL team. Prolly a triple double even seeing how Bynum hardly grabs any rebounds.[/QUOTE]
This is a joke right? his assist yes would probably be up but as proven manny times be4 the West is so far ahead of the East even in the lower half he wouldn't be droppin triple doubles and 50+ on the lower half teams in the west as he does in the east and how does that make any sense if the better player is Kobe but the Lebron james lead lakers would win 72? Kobe would feast on the lower level eastern confrence teams probably more so then Lebron because he has a better jimmy and if his teammates wouldn't get it going he would go off and history tell's us that's a great thing cause they almost always win.
[QUOTE=The GM]I'm sorry but the slobbage ESPN just gave Lebron is ridiculous. Chris Brousarrd or however you spell his name who I "Had" alot of respect for is just suckin Labrizzy's nuts, saying that if they switched teams the Lakers would be close to 70 win's and the Cavs would just be a mere playoff team and wouldn't be competing againts the Magic & Boston's of the world is flat out stupid.. let Lebron grind it out in the west for a season and see how he doesn't look so mighty. Oh yea btw Lebron & Kobe's playmaking ability is alot closer then people think.. watch the game's people, just don't look at stats.[/QUOTE]
I watch alot of their games and i think Lebron takes over them more effectively than Kobe. Kobe i'll admit has a better shooting touch but Lebron can find other ways to take over. Like someone had mention earlier in this thead, Lebron could guard almost anybody on the court and can play more positions. Kobe to me is an overrated defender.
if you're gonna go by "team succuss" then Kobe's 05-06 season didnt mean anything
[QUOTE=The GM]This is a joke right? his assist yes would probably be up but as proven manny times be4 the West is so far ahead of the East even in the lower half he wouldn't be droppin triple doubles and 50+ on the lower half teams in the west as he does in the east and how does that make any sense if the better player is Kobe but the Lebron james lead lakers would win 72? Kobe would feast on the lower level eastern confrence teams probably more so then Lebron because he has a better jimmy and if his teammates wouldn't get it going he would go off and history tell's us that's a great thing cause they almost always win.[/QUOTE]
This is the problem with folks who haven't watched the NBA much. 70 win seasons don't grow on trees morons. And the whole switch player X with Y to prove a point is flawed on so many levels, especially when comparing 2 players with different strengths and weaknesses.