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I would have done the same thing. Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, and he was doing a great job, and Phil totally pulled the rug from underneath him. Would he have done the same thing to MJ? Very disrespectful given Pippen's history in Chicago. And I wouldn't have stopped w/not playing either, I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.
The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.
I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Ask Collins. Better yet ask MJ and ask him what he did when his teams were winning. All I know is a dominant scorer--who scored 32 points on 25 shots in the very next game as you mentioned should not be taking 8 shots in a game.
No one said he packed it in the series. He just quit in Game 5. How do we know? Journalism (Sam Smith). Talking to people who were on the team. Circumstantial evidence backs this up. 28 FGA in the other fifteen playoff games; 8 in that one. How many times did MJ take less than 10 shots in the playoffs? Did he ever do that other than in that game? Why can't you admit MJ made a mistake? No one is saying it didn't happen. You criticize Pippen for one play but not MJ for an entire game with the series tied.[/quote]
Jordan did make mistakes, just look at the 1987 first round or when he lost the ball to Nick Anderson in 95.
Also, it was pointed out that he had 9 assists that game. Was he really packing it in, then?
[quote]That was Jordan I believe. I don't remember him getting in his face, just telling him to do so.[/quote]
I see.
[quote]No but I have never heard of Bird or Erving dominating a NBA finals with their defense. Can any old-timers comment on this? Abe?
Anyway, this is off track. The fact that you had to invoke Bird and Erving to find better SF's in that regard speaks volumes about how good Pippen was.[/quote]
You're right, Scottie is one of the ten best small forwards to ever play in the NBA. Lebron, Bird, Erving, Rick Barry and Baylor are the only ones I can name off the top of my head that were better than him. I believe that speaks volumes of how talented he was.
[QUOTE=dallaslonghorn]I would have done the same thing. Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, and he was doing a great job, and Phil totally pulled the rug from underneath him. Would he have done the same thing to MJ? Very disrespectful given Pippen's history in Chicago. And I wouldn't have stopped w/not playing either, I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.[/QUOTE]
You'd tell your gm to get rid of Phil Jackson? Seriously?
[QUOTE=chitownsfinest]The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.
I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.[/QUOTE]
I agree on all points.
[QUOTE]Also, it was pointed out that he had 9 assists that game. Was he really packing it in, then? [/QUOTE]
He had 32 points on 25 shots and 13 assists in the next game. You tell me. No one disputes what he did.
[QUOTE]You're right, Scottie is one of the ten best small forwards to ever play in the NBA. Lebron, Bird, Erving, Rick Barry and Baylor are the only ones I can name off the top of my head that were better than him. I believe that speaks volumes of how talented he was.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, pretty much although he has a case over some of them all-time based on accomplishments (6 championships vs. 0 or 1) and defense (Barry, from what I've read, was a poor defender). He has no case over Bird or Dr. J, though.
[QUOTE]I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.[/QUOTE]
Jackson handled the situation extremely well and all was forgiven, both by the players and coach by the next game where Pippen had 25 points and led his team to evening the series. Even the fans cheered him when he was introduced. I and many others thought he might have been booed.
[QUOTE=chitownsfinest]The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.
I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.[/QUOTE]
Good post, concurred.
[QUOTE=Alhazred]I'm a bit confused. Jordan's a ballhog for taking a lot of shots but is a "quitter" when he cuts back when asked? Which is it? Also, did he really "quit"? What about his other stats?[/QUOTE]
Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.
Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40[/url]
My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop [I]playing[/I]. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.
By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down one? If he did, I have two thoughts...
1) Jordan should have been mad. Dave f*cking Corzine??? He had a nice little jumpshot that he could knock down from time to time when he was wide open, but c'mon. Jordan being mad at that (if true) is what separates him from the rest. He knew he had a better chance to make the shot than anyone else on the team and he probably would have gone out in the first round if he decided to be a "team player" in that situation. Guess what? Basketball rewards team play... but there are times when it pays to be [I]selfish[/I]. That's a dirty little secret no one wants to admit because it doesn't sound good. Just like there are times to lie. But that's another thread.
2) Doug Collins should have been fired if he called that play for Dave Corzine. I don't believe it. Doug is smarter than that. Jordan was going OFF that quarter and had knocked down the Bulls' previous shot to give them the lead before Ehlo put Cleveland back in the lead.
By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was...some of you ought to read Craig Hodges account of what happened on that last play. He said he screwed up by allowing Ehlo to backdoor him for the layup. After the play, Jordan came over and told him, "don't worry. I'm not going to let us lose this game." I forgot where I heard/read this. Maybe in David Halberstam's book.
*edit* I just looked at the replays. Dave Corzine wasn't even on the court! I skimmed through the whole 4th quarter, I didn't see Dave Corzine until the Bulls called a timeout and he was wearing his warmup jacket :oldlol: The lineup was Jordan, Hodges, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright for most of the fourth quarter with Sellers getting some time at the end.
As far as Pippen's play...I never hammered him for it. It was a selfish move...but I understand that sometimes you have to be selfish. Not all the time. Not most of the time, but sometimes. He thought that was his time and he wanted to take it. He paid his dues and felt like he deserved it. I never thought any less of Scottie for that moment.
RR, I got your PM's. I'll respond when I get a chance. Family's visiting for the holidays...
[QUOTE]By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down 1? If he did, I have two thoughts...[/QUOTE]
Yes, according to Sam Smith in the Jordan Rules. The idea was not as crazy as it seems. His thinking was everyone would expect the ball to go to MJ so he designed it for Corzine, similar to Jackson's thinking with Pippen and Kukoc. Edit: I skimmed through it and can't find it so I will retract it. I may have read it elsewhere. The Game 5 ECF thing is on pg 63. Why don't basketball books have indexes??? Edit II: I found it. Page 82.
[QUOTE]By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was..[/QUOTE]
No one was even talking about Jordan until a Jordan fan acted as if Jordan would never do what Pippen did. I don't believe anyone even said he was selfish, although it was implicit in Collins' thinking.
I didn't want this to devolve into a MJ or Kobe thread so I never mentioned them by name in my first reply. I still haven't mentioned Player Z from the 60's. My point was all these greats get a pass for what they did yet Pippen's legacy is scarred by what he did.
No problem. I wanted to clear things up so I addressed every possible question I thought you would have so they were lengthy. :oldlol: Note that I am not saying much about the 80's in this thread or making definitive declarations on Dr. J's defense based on limited information. I evolved as a poster. It is a lot different talking to hardcore fans here than friends who don't know Dr. J from Dr. Pepper. :roll:
Exellent post, Realist, thank you for adding to the discussion.
Quick question, why did Collins want Corzine to take it? Why not Hodges, Pippen or Grant?
No one would expect it. When he began to draw the play and the players realized it was for Corzine they frowned. Collins defended the play by saying it was a good idea because no one would except it (the same reason Jackson cited for calling that play for Kukoc). Jordan slammed his fist on the clipboard, said "Give me the ****in ball", the play was changed to MJ and he made that now legendary shot over Ehlo.
Giving the ball to Kukoc over Pippen is much more reasonable then giving the ball to Dave freaking Corzine over Jordan. Giving Pippen the final shot means he has to make a shot over Mason while MJ has to make the shotn over Ehlo, it is not the same situation. No wonder the team quit on Collins and did not like the guy.
You could easily say they wouldn't have expected Hodges to take it, either. See, Kukoc I can understand, but Corzine? Also, how many players frowned when Phil said Toni was taking the shot, other than Pippen?
Never read The Jordan Rules (though I bought Michael Leahy's When Nothing Else Matters). I'm curious to find out how Sam Smith knew that the play was for Corzine. I'm not sure if journalists can get close to the huddle during timeouts.
Remember this is the same Sam Smith, who, from out of nowhere, proposed that LeBron could join Kobe in LA in 2010.
And didn't Collins say at the postgame press conference, that the play was to "give the ball to Jordan and everybody else get the **** out of the way..."?
[QUOTE]I'm curious to find out how Sam Smith knew that the play was for Corzine. I'm not sure if journalists can get close to the huddle during timeouts.[/QUOTE]
Asking around as a journalist does. If it really happened do you think it wouldn't get mentioned? I believe Smith was the beat reporter for the team. When talking to a reporter it is easy to see a player saying "Mike made a great shot...but can you believe the play originally was for Collins...Collins sucks..."
People BS in press conferences all the time. Even that statement is technically accurate since the play was for MJ. He didn't mention there was another play drawn up before that one.
[QUOTE]You could easily say they wouldn't have expected Hodges to take it, either. See, Kukoc I can understand, but Corzine? Also, how many players frowned when Phil said Toni was taking the shot, other than Pippen?[/QUOTE]
That is all Smith wrote. It was mentioned in passing in the book so there aren't details. The story was the shot, not Collins designing a play it for Corzine.
No one has ever written a book about Pippen so we don't have such details about 94'.
[QUOTE]Giving the ball to Kukoc over Pippen is much more reasonable then giving the ball to Dave freaking Corzine over Jordan. Giving Pippen the final shot means he has to make a shot over Mason while MJ has to make the shotn over Ehlo, it is not the same situation. No wonder the team quit on Collins and did not like the guy.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't Ehlo considered a good defender? I agree, though, that Corzine doesn't make sense but Collins must have had some rationale for choosing Corzine instead of another player. Collins, despite his flaws, is an intelligent person.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]No problem. I wanted to clear things up so I addressed every possible question I thought you would have so they were lengthy. :oldlol: Note that I am not saying much about the 80's in this thread or making definitive declarations on Dr. J's defense based on limited information. I evolved as a poster. It is a lot different talking to hardcore fans here than friends who don't know Dr. J from Dr. Pepper. :roll:[/QUOTE]
I have my own thoughts about Dr. J. He didn't seem to have an all-around game to me and those battles with Bird and the Celtics sort of highlighted the difference between an all-court player like Bird and a physical freak like Dr. J. He didn't seem to have a jumpshot or a left hand, but I only saw a few games starting from 80 until he retired. Probably less than 20. Intelligent posters on this board think differently so I keep my mouth shut about it.
[QUOTE=Alhazred]Exellent post, Realist, thank you for adding to the discussion.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. That's just my perspective, though. I watched all those Bulls/Pistons battles. The Pistons were just better. Whether Jordan shot 8 times or 25 times. Whether he scored 15 or 42. The Pistons were just better. Especially in 88 and 89. Jordan was trying to prove a point -- and he was right. His team in 89 was not ready but he still should have played a better all around game. No excuses for that.
The Pistons were knocking him down, tripping him up and laughing at him with every win. They just crushed the Bulls. Wasn't it 88 or 89 when the Pistons were like 6-2 or 5-1 against the Bulls in the regular season? And they handed it to MJ every chance they got. MJ wanted to stand up to them and knock them down. When he looked around, he saw some softies that couldn't stand up to the big boys so he decided to take them on himself. I can imagine the eye-rolling he must have done when Collins told him to pass to Sellers, Cartwright, Grant, Hodges and Pippen more often. It's like saying, "Look, I know you're tired, but let the 16-year old in the back seat drive the next 300 miles so you can get some rest. She'll make good time." An ultra-competitor like MJ is going to say, "Hell no. We'll be fine. I can do it. That girl's never driven more than a half hour at a time."
Bad analogy or not, that's my interpretation. :D
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]No one would expect it. When he began to draw the play and the players realized it was for Corzine they frowned. Collins defended the play by saying it was a good idea because no one would except it (the same reason Jackson cited for calling that play for Kukoc). Jordan slammed his fist on the clipboard, said "Give me the ****in ball", the play was changed to MJ and he made that now legendary shot over Ehlo.[/QUOTE]
Wrong time to try to outsmart the field. I can only imagine the scrutiny that guy would have faced if he decided to run a play for a guy that didn't play the whole fourth quarter when you got the most unstoppable offensive force during his peak physical prime on your team and who is having an EPIC game. Wow. We would have never seen Doug Collins again. :oldlol:
[QUOTE=1987_Lakers][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response[/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E[/url]
The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.[/QUOTE]
Kukoc saved the Bulls from a sweep.
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]I have my own thoughts about Dr. J. He didn't seem to have an all-around game to me and those battles with Bird and the Celtics sort of highlighted the difference between an all-court player like Bird and a physical freak like Dr. J. He didn't seem to have a jumpshot or a left hand, but I only saw a few games starting from 80 until he retired. Probably less than 20. Intelligent posters on this board think differently so I keep my mouth shut about it.[/quote]
I didn't watch that much of Dr. J either aside from replays from 80s games, but he seemed to have few weaknesses other than an outside shot which you already mentioned. I probably don't know any more about him than you do, though.
[quote]Thanks. That's just my perspective, though. I watched all those Bulls/Pistons battles. The Pistons were just better. Whether Jordan shot 8 times or 25 times. Whether he scored 15 or 42. The Pistons were just better. Especially in 88 and 89. Jordan was trying to prove a point -- and he was right. His team in 89 was not ready but he still should have played a better all around game. No excuses for that.
The Pistons were knocking him down, tripping him up and laughing at him with every win. They just crushed the Bulls. Wasn't it 88 or 89 when the Pistons were like 6-2 or 5-1 against the Bulls in the regular season? And they handed it to MJ every chance they got. MJ wanted to stand up to them and knock them down. When he looked around, he saw some softies that couldn't stand up to the big boys so he decided to take them on himself. I can imagine the eye-rolling he must have done when Collins told him to pass to Sellers, Cartwright, Grant, Hodges and Pippen more often. It's like saying, "Look, I know you're tired, but let the 16-year old in the back seat drive the next 300 miles so you can get some rest. She'll make good time." An ultra-competitor like MJ is going to say, "Hell no. We'll be fine. I can do it. That girl's never driven more than a half hour at a time."
Bad analogy or not, that's my interpretation. :D[/quote]
Eh, I liked it. :)
Yeah, if it was in the book, and no one denied it, it probably happened. If it didn't, there should have been some kind of lawsuit or statement by now.
I checked the vid. Sam Smith can be seen right next to the Bulls' bench. Hahaha!
Doug could have said what he said at the press conference because did not want to reveal that he had actually initially drawn up the play for Corzine.
no offense rock but i remember after that game in the interview doug collins saying that that play was called "give the ball to jordan and get the **** out the way". are you sure it was drawn up for corzine?
[QUOTE]Wrong time to try to outsmart the field. I can only imagine the scrutiny that guy would have faced if he decided to run a play for a guy that didn't play the whole fourth quarter when you got the most unstoppable offensive force during his peak physical prime on your team and who is having an EPIC game. Wow. We would have never seen Doug Collins again.[/QUOTE]
I agree. :roll: I am glad it worked out. Collins is my favorite analyst after Hubie Brown.
How would you compare Detroit's thuggery to the early 90's Knicks? Pippen was tripped twice in one game in the 94' series. That is just one player and just one game!
[QUOTE]Kukoc saved the Bulls from a sweep.[/QUOTE]
In a way perhaps. They probably would have won Game 4 out of pride and determination but I agree that if he missed the series would be over. There would be no Game 7, no Hue Hollins stealing Game 5 and a 3-2 series lead from the Bulls with what many believe was the worst call in NBA history (ESPN poll, 7th worst call ever and #1 among NBA calls, #2 in basketball history behind the call in favor of the Soviets in 72' or 76'). However, Kukoc averaged 8/3 in that series on poor shooting. Let's not magnify his role.
I agree, though, that if the Bulls lost that game they would have been toast--just as they would have been toast if they lost Game 3 in the 93' ECF. Remember who stepped up with 29 points on 83% shooting that game? If you credit Kukoc for one shot you have to credit your favorite Bull for 29 points on 83%. :D
[QUOTE]Yeah, if it was in the book, and no one denied it, it probably happened. If it didn't, there should have been some kind of lawsuit or statement by now.[/QUOTE]
Well, it wasn't big enough of a deal to warrant a lawsuit but if it didn't happen you would think there would have been a denial from Collins because it makes him look very bad.
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.
Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40[/url]
My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop [I]playing[/I]. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. LOL @ equating that to Kobe's game 7 vs. the Suns or Pippen's sitting out. LOL @ equating that to quitting. A player doesn't get 9 assists by quitting. They don't put a ton of effort on the defensive end if they quit. Not to mention that there were a few instances in that game where Jordan gave a teammate a great open look and they just missed it, and there were also a few instances where Jordan jumped up for a shot and passed it to a teammate who had a better look at the last second. Kobe had 1 freaking assist in the game vs. the Suns.
And lol @ using Sam Smith as you're source in a book where he made it a point to highlight Jordan's flaws.
I'm not saying Jordan didn't subconsciously take less shots. He obviously did. But how do you know what his intentions were? How do you know he was trying to make a point? How do you know he wasn't genuinely just taking Doug Collins' advice and may have just overdone it (which has happened plenty of times in these situations)? How do you know he wasn't doing both?
I'm not saying Jordan had a good game. He definitely should've been more aggressive. All I'm saying is using a paragraph from Sam Smith's Jordan's Rules as a source and passing it off as completely reliable is not exactly right. And equating that to "quitting" and to those other two games is definitely not right.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
I agree, though, that if the Bulls lost that game they would have been toast--just as they would have been toast if they lost Game 3 in the 93' ECF. Remember who stepped up with 29 points on 83% shooting that game? If you credit Kukoc for one shot you have to credit your favorite Bull for 29 points on 83%. :D [/QUOTE]
Kudos to Scottie for an awesome scoring performance, but give credit to Jordan for having a near triple double as well. He led the team in assists and rebounds that game plus he added 2 steals and two blocks. It was almost as if they switched roles for the game, Scottie handling scoring duties and Jordan switching his priorities to passing, playing defense(Starks was destroyed that game) and grabbing boards.
Just to be clear, both were awesome that night aside from Jordan's poor shooting which can't be denied.
What do you expect? 0/0/0? Even Vince Carter was still scoring 16 ppg when he "quit" in Toronto (28 ppg when he left!). This applies to other sports. When Moss quit did he have 0 catches? When Jarno Trulli wanted to make a point he finish last? No, he ran mid-pack all race and then ran by far his fastest lap on the final one to make a point.
[QUOTE]I'm not saying Jordan didn't subconsciously take less shots. He obviously did. But how do you know what his intentions were? How do you know he was trying to make a point? How do you know he wasn't genuinely just taking Doug Collins' advice and may have just overdone it (which has happened plenty of times in these situations)? How do you know he wasn't doing both?[/QUOTE]
No one can know for sure. There is circumstantial evidence to look at.
28 FGA in 15 games, 8 FGA in that game.
From 1991 onward we have game logs for the playoffs. Here is the lowest number of shots MJ took in any playoff game in each season:
1991: 15
1992: 22
1993: 18
1995: 19
1996: 14
1997: 15
1998: 14
If you want to believe it is just a coincidence that his FGA never approached 8 in [I]any[/I] game through six championship runs more power to you. If you want to believe he went from 28 FGA in the playoffs to 8 (25 in the very next game) coincidentally more power to you. The circumstantial evidence is clear.
Sam Smith knows more about the inner workings of that team than anyone here. He can't be summarily dismissed.
[QUOTE]Kudos to Scottie for an awesome scoring performance, but give credit to Jordan for having a near triple double as well. He led the team in assists and rebounds that game plus he added 2 steals and two blocks. It was almost as if they switched roles for the game, Scottie handling scoring duties and Jordan switching his priorities to passing, playing defense(Starks was destroyed that game) and grabbing boards.
Just to be clear, both were awesome that night aside from Jordan's poor shooting which can't be denied.[/QUOTE]
:applause: I agree. I aimed that comment only at duncan. He has said before that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong>Pippen's importance on the 94' Bulls so I couldn't pass up the opportunity presented by his comments on 8/3 Kukoc by mentioning what Pippen did in 93'.
MJ did have a triple double in that series. I think it was Game 5. That is one reason he won so many championships. Even when he shot poorly he could do so many other things to help his team. He almost even led the team in rebounding in the 97' playoffs (Rodman averaged only 8 boards that year in the playoffs. He averaged more technical than rebounds that year :oldlol: ).
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]:applause: I agree. I aimed that comment only at duncan. He has said before that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong>Pippen's importance on the 94' Bulls so I couldn't pass up the opportunity presented by his comments on 8/3 Kukoc by mentioning what Pippen did in 93'.[/quote]
Understood. :)
[quote]MJ did have a triple double in that series. I think it was Game 5. That is one reason he won so many championships. Even when he shot poorly he could do so many other things to help his team. He almost even led the team in rebounding in the 97' playoffs (Rodman averaged only 8 boards that year in the playoffs. He averaged more technical than rebounds that year :oldlol: ).[/QUOTE]
Agreed on Jordan. I'm not sure what happened to Rodman in the 97 playoffs, although I heard that he just wasn't getting his head in the games. I thought he redeemed himself a bit when he nearly played the whole season the next year and helped Chicago deal with losing Scottie for nearly half the year, though as well as giving Malone a headache at certain periods of the Finals.
[QUOTE=Mister JT]But Roundball_Rock, you are getting overly defensive. You talk about the trolls that could come in this thread, yet you look at his username and avatar, and reply by posting something negative about Magic Johnson. Why don't you start the thread about Magic running Westhead out of town?
Then you dictate what legit replies are supposed to look like.
Anyway, I remember that the incident was not a big deal to me personally. We didn't get full coverage of the playoffs back then with preview shows and post game analyses. All we got was live games and the newspaper recaps. Kukoc made the shot. The Bulls won. I was happy.
Even the Pippen-Jordan spat in game 1 of the 98 finals was not a big deal to me. I knew they were veterans and would come back stronger. And they did.[/QUOTE]
He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.
yeah.
[QUOTE=EricForman]He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.
yeah.[/QUOTE]
Pippen/Johnson/Richmond/Smits/Grant>Garnett/Pierce/Allen/Rondo/Perkins. They may not have won six but they would be the favorites practically every year from 91' to 97' or 98'. The team MJ fans kept citing as the team that would stop them was the 0 championship Knicks. That "juggernaut" had trouble with Indiana (Pippen/Johnson/Richmond>Miller/Smits/Davis) and needed the refs to bail them out against Pippen/Grant/Armstrong/and scrubs in 94'. Yet they were going to dominate Pippen/Johnson/Richmond/Smits/Grant? :roll:
You could post a hypothetical about Pippen playing with Kareem, Duncan, Magic and Kobe and MJ fans would still argue he wouldn't win anything even though he came within 2 minutes of a ring with Rasheed Wallace/Steve Smith in 00' while past his prime (with prime Pippen that team wins) and we all know about Hollins and 94'. :oldlol: @ MJ fans claiming the Knicks would have won Game 6 if they lost Game 5. They lost 15 of 16 in Chicago and something like 8 or 9 straight by the end of 1994.
[QUOTE]Agreed on Jordan. I'm not sure what happened to Rodman in the 97 playoffs, although I heard that he just wasn't getting his head in the games. I thought he redeemed himself a bit when he nearly played the whole season the next year and helped Chicago deal with losing Scottie for nearly half the year, though as well as giving Malone a headache at certain periods of the Finals.[/QUOTE]
It's Rodman. You never know what is going on with Rodman, even to this day. :oldlol: Was 97' the year his popularity peaked? Was that the year of the book tour, the Carmen Electra gimmick marriage, etc.?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]What do you expect? 0/0/0? Even Vince Carter was still scoring 16 ppg when he "quit" in Toronto (28 ppg when he left!). This applies to other sports. When Moss quit did he have 0 catches? When Jarno Trulli wanted to make a point he finish last? No, he ran mid-pack all race and then ran by far his fastest lap on the final one to make a point. [/QUOTE]
So you're comparing 1 game of Jordan's to 20 games of Vince's?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
No one can know for sure. There is circumstantial evidence to look at.
28 FGA in 15 games, 8 FGA in that game.
From 1991 onward we have game logs for the playoffs. Here is the lowest number of shots MJ took in any playoff game in each season:
1991: 15
1992: 22
1993: 18
1995: 19
1996: 14
1997: 15
1998: 14
If you want to believe it is just a coincidence that his FGA never approached 8 in [I]any[/I] game through six championship runs more power to you. If you want to believe he went from 28 FGA in the playoffs to 8 (25 in the very next game) coincidentally more power to you. The circumstantial evidence is clear. [/QUOTE]
I don't think its a coincidence. Jordan was asked by his coach to shoot less and pass more. So he did. That doesn't mean his intentions were bad. Did you even watch the game? IMO I don't see how you can call what he did "quitting". Like Da Realist said, he didn't camp out behind the 3point line like Kobe did, and he didn't take himself out of the game like Pippen did. Jordan still put a ton of effort in that game. Thats not quitting. Its obvious he went overboard and was TOO passive, but that doesn't mean he had bad intentions.
Of course, maybe he did have somewhat bad intentions and was trying to make a point (doesn't mean he quit, cause if you watch that game its clear he didn't). All I'm saying is one paragraph without much detail from a book by a biased journalist with an agenda who's main objective was to greatly highlight Jordan's flaws isn't a great source and doesn't hold much weight to me and IMO probably does not to most people.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]
Sam Smith knows more about the inner workings of that team than anyone here. He can't be summarily dismissed.
[/QUOTE]
Of course he shouldn't. I'm sure whatever Sam has said in the past does have some truth to it. But as a journalist who's had an agenda against Jordan, you can't dismiss the great possibility that he greatly exaggerates and twists the truths in order to fit that agenda.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]They may not have won six but they would be the favorites practically every year from 91' to 97' or 98'.[/QUOTE]
No, they would not. Anyone who believes they would be the favorites pratically every year to win it all is stupid. :rolleyes:
All good points, guy.
[QUOTE=raptorfan_dr07]No, they would not. Anyone who believes they would be the favorites pratically every year to win it all is stupid. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Been there, done that. There was a long thread on it. The one team MJ fans (no one else obsessed with dissing that team and I notice that aren't dissing the Jordan/Pippen/Malone hypothetical and they positively gushed about MJ/Hakeem/Drexler) kept pointing to as the savior was the Knicks.
Stupid? Dazzle us with your brilliance. Who would be favored over them in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998? Give specific teams for specific years, not a generic "the Knicks", "Seattle." That scenario had the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG of the 90's, the second or third best PG of the 90's playing with two all-star caliber big men with players like BJ Armstrong and Toni Kukoc leading the bench. What teams boasted a better roster?
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]All good points, guy.
Been there, done that. There was a long thread on it. The one team MJ fans (no one else obsessed with dissing that team and I notice that aren't dissing the Jordan/Pippen/Malone hypothetical and they positively gushed about MJ/Hakeem/Drexler) kept pointing to as the savior was the Knicks.
Stupid? Dazzle us with your brilliance. Who would be favored over them in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998? Give specific teams for specific years, not a generic "the Knicks", "Seattle." That scenario had the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG of the 90's, the second or third best PG of the 90's playing with two all-star caliber big men with players like BJ Armstrong and Toni Kukoc leading the bench. What teams boasted a better roster?[/QUOTE]
Raptorsfan where are you? people don't hang around when they can't handle the truth :confusedshrug:
I didn't read this topic, but the Pippen hate really bothers me. This guy was one of the best defensive players of all time and he voluntarily allowed himself to be a #2 option for 6 title runs.
And don't forget that he was the leader of a team that almost upset Kobe/Shaq in 2000.
Hmm... he was thinking "I've had a terrible, terrible game. I don't want to lose it for my team." Nice try though.
[quote=1987_Lakers][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response[/URL]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E[/URL]
The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.[/quote]
i watched this game live and when it all went down, i just couldnt believe it. i had never seen a pro athlete do anything like pippen did at a time like this
it is one of the reasons that my respect for pippen dropped tremendously after this incident-- no matter how much he tried to apologize afterwards
[QUOTE=Bodhi]I didn't read this topic, but the Pippen hate really bothers me. This guy was one of the best defensive players of all time and he voluntarily allowed himself to be a #2 option for 6 title runs.
And don't forget that he was the leader of a team that almost upset Kobe/Shaq in 2000.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that you can say that he VOLUNTARILY ALLOWED himself to be the number 2 option for 6 title runs. He wasn't gonna be the Bulls' number 1 option as long as MJ was playing, even if he tried his absolute best to be one.
However, if you mean that he STUCK IT OUT with the Bulls longer than he had to, despite how Krause treated him, to win 5 or 6 championships instead of maybe 4 or 5, then I agree with you.
[QUOTE=Mister JT]I don't think that you can say that he VOLUNTARILY ALLOWED himself to be the number 2 option for 6 title runs. He wasn't gonna be the Bulls' number 1 option as long as MJ was playing, even if he tried his absolute best to be one.
However, if you mean that he STUCK IT OUT with the Bulls longer than he had to, despite how Krause treated him, to win 5 or 6 championships instead of maybe 4 or 5, then I agree with you.[/QUOTE]
I agree. One thing people don't seem to bring up with Pippen is that although he didn't seem to mind being a 2nd option, he had alot of problems with the fact that he was horribly underpaid. I think at anytime during those years if Pippen could've left the Bulls and gotten out of that contract and sign a better contract with another team, he would've. I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying he was already stuck in a situation that Jerry Krause wasn't going to get him out of, so he made the most of it.
[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Was the Kerr play called for Kerr?
The play was changed to him. Who knows what he would have done if it remained designed for Corzine. Why was he even arguing? Those are precious seconds with the season on the line and he was wasting time calling for the ball instead of discussing how to perfectly execute the play.
He did in effect bench himself in Game 5 of the ECF with the series tied 2-2. He took 8 shots the entire game. Why? His coach (Collins) asked him to pass the ball more because he was taking over 30% of the shots. He tanked a game with the series tied. He gets a free pass for this?
Ask his teammates or Jackson what he did. When a player was having a bad shooting night Pippen worked harder to get him the ball and would work the offense to get him a good shot to keep his confidence up and involved in the game. Some others tended to cut players off if that happened. Pippen offered constructive leadership. His leadership was one of encouragement, not scolding. He didn't sacrifice his stats or accolades? Pippen could have blown up the team a la Shaq-Kobe by demanding a trade so he could win as "the man" or demanding more shots.
It is annoying for over a decade to see Pippen get crucified for this while Jordan, Kobe, a certain 60's great among others all get a free pass for doing similar things during entire games or halves of important games, not merely refusing to inbound the ball. In Magic's case getting a coach who just led you to a championship was selfish yet Magic is presented as the ultimate team player. Good. He was--just like Pippen. Yet Pippen's black mark on his copybook is always mentioned while Magic's not so much. These are just a few exampes.
Nah, at least not thus far. Some good may come out this thread. The people who bring this up the most here are MJ fans. If they learn that their hero had similar, arguably worse (one play vs. an entire game) moments maybe they will stop doing it. 99% of his fans don't even know about what he did because it has been airbrushed from history.
Dominant defender? Pippen was a very good three point shooter but I wouldn't compare his three point shot to Reggie Miller's.[/QUOTE]
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, but Kobe gets a free pass? LOL. Where have you been the last 5 years? Kobe gets crucified for every little fault he makes. Nothing has been forgotten about Kobe. Pippen has one thing that people remember in a negative light, and as for myself, I don't even talk about that when discussing Pippen's greatness.
[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.
Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40[/url]
My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop [I]playing[/I]. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.
By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down one? If he did, I have two thoughts...
1) Jordan should have been mad. Dave f*cking Corzine??? He had a nice little jumpshot that he could knock down from time to time when he was wide open, but c'mon. Jordan being mad at that (if true) is what separates him from the rest. He knew he had a better chance to make the shot than anyone else on the team and he probably would have gone out in the first round if he decided to be a "team player" in that situation. Guess what? Basketball rewards team play... but there are times when it pays to be [I]selfish[/I]. That's a dirty little secret no one wants to admit because it doesn't sound good. Just like there are times to lie. But that's another thread.
2) Doug Collins should have been fired if he called that play for Dave Corzine. I don't believe it. Doug is smarter than that. Jordan was going OFF that quarter and had knocked down the Bulls' previous shot to give them the lead before Ehlo put Cleveland back in the lead.
By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was...some of you ought to read Craig Hodges account of what happened on that last play. He said he screwed up by allowing Ehlo to backdoor him for the layup. After the play, Jordan came over and told him, "don't worry. I'm not going to let us lose this game." I forgot where I heard/read this. Maybe in David Halberstam's book.
*edit* I just looked at the replays. Dave Corzine wasn't even on the court! I skimmed through the whole 4th quarter, I didn't see Dave Corzine until the Bulls called a timeout and he was wearing his warmup jacket :oldlol: The lineup was Jordan, Hodges, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright for most of the fourth quarter with Sellers getting some time at the end.
As far as Pippen's play...I never hammered him for it. It was a selfish move...but I understand that sometimes you have to be selfish. Not all the time. Not most of the time, but sometimes. He thought that was his time and he wanted to take it. He paid his dues and felt like he deserved it. I never thought any less of Scottie for that moment.
RR, I got your PM's. I'll respond when I get a chance. Family's visiting for the holidays...[/QUOTE]
Videos updated...
[QUOTE=Da_Realist;3805696]Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.
Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40[/url]
My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop [I]playing[/I]. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.
By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down one? If he did, I have two thoughts...
1) Jordan should have been mad. Dave f*cking Corzine??? He had a nice little jumpshot that he could knock down from time to time when he was wide open, but c'mon. Jordan being mad at that (if true) is what separates him from the rest. He knew he had a better chance to make the shot than anyone else on the team and he probably would have gone out in the first round if he decided to be a "team player" in that situation. Guess what? Basketball rewards team play... but there are times when it pays to be [I]selfish[/I]. That's a dirty little secret no one wants to admit because it doesn't sound good. Just like there are times to lie. But that's another thread.
2) Doug Collins should have been fired if he called that play for Dave Corzine. I don't believe it. Doug is smarter than that. Jordan was going OFF that quarter and had knocked down the Bulls' previous shot to give them the lead before Ehlo put Cleveland back in the lead.
By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was...some of you ought to read Craig Hodges account of what happened on that last play. He said he screwed up by allowing Ehlo to backdoor him for the layup. After the play, Jordan came over and told him, "don't worry. I'm not going to let us lose this game." I forgot where I heard/read this. Maybe in David Halberstam's book.
*edit* I just looked at the replays. Dave Corzine wasn't even on the court! I skimmed through the whole 4th quarter, I didn't see Dave Corzine until the Bulls called a timeout and he was wearing his warmup jacket :oldlol: The lineup was Jordan, Hodges, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright for most of the fourth quarter with Sellers getting some time at the end.
As far as Pippen's play...I never hammered him for it. It was a selfish move...but I understand that sometimes you have to be selfish. Not all the time. Not most of the time, but sometimes. He thought that was his time and he wanted to take it. He paid his dues and felt like he deserved it. I never thought any less of Scottie for that moment.[/QUOTE]
Yo DR,
Do you still have some of these games on DVD? Was looking to acquire a few.
Can't message you here but throw me an email: [email]goldenhoops32@gmail.com[/email] -- look forward to hearing from you
[QUOTE=EricForman;3806440]He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.
yeah.[/QUOTE]
This take is a banger.lol.
Tho they would be playoff contenders