[QUOTE=bagelred]Totally agree with everything you just said.
So you think Arenas should go to jail for years for this?[/QUOTE]
he needs to be punished but jailtime is not necessary.
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[QUOTE=bagelred]Totally agree with everything you just said.
So you think Arenas should go to jail for years for this?[/QUOTE]
he needs to be punished but jailtime is not necessary.
[QUOTE=bagelred]So its not the guns itself. Its the people who are irresponsible about guns.
Again, in Switzerland, everyone is allowed to own and even carry guns around with them. Doesn't seem to be a problem. So really its only AMERICANS who can't be trusted with gun ownership. Is that the case? Maybe that's just it then.......[/QUOTE]
you have to obey the laws of the jurisdiction you are in. you can't say "in switzerland you can do this" - its irrelevent. that's a theoretical discussion - arenas is not in a theoretical situation.
[QUOTE=kkling]Not funny anymore is it, Gil?[/QUOTE]
YUP
[QUOTE=bagelred]So its not the guns itself. Its the people who are irresponsible about guns.
Again, in Switzerland, everyone is allowed to own and even carry guns around with them. Doesn't seem to be a problem. So really its only AMERICANS who can't be trusted with gun ownership. Is that the case? Maybe that's just it then.......[/QUOTE]
You can't just compare America and Switzerland to make a point. You are mentioning people of two very different cultures and value-systems.
[QUOTE=niko]you have to obey the laws of the jurisdiction you are in. you can't say "in switzerland you can do this" - its irrelevent. that's a theoretical discussion - arenas is not in a theoretical situation.[/QUOTE]
Yes I realize its against the law. All I'm saying is punishment should fit the crime. But I think its important to see what other societies do and question our assumptions on how "bad" certain crimes are over others.....I just don't like this reflexive groupthink that "OMG....how COULD he.....THROW THE BOOK AT HIM....PUBLIC OUTCAST....". It's like, ok, CALM DOWN everyone........
No, Gilbert doesn't deserve jailtime IMO. A huge fine, probation and the removal of his ability to be a gun owner seems fair. But i'm not going to lose sleep over him possibly going to jail, he did something stupid and illegal (that he clearly had to know was illegal) to be funny. ANd it's not the first time he had guns illegally either. If he was some victim of circumstance, i think i'd feel worse for him - i find it hard to feel bad for someone waving a gun around like a toy because he thinks its funny.
[QUOTE=bagelred]So its not the guns itself. Its the people who are irresponsible about guns.
Again, in Switzerland, everyone is allowed to own and even carry guns around with them. Doesn't seem to be a problem. So really its only AMERICANS who can't be trusted with gun ownership. Is that the case? Maybe that's just it then.......[/QUOTE]
it's alot easier to police a country with the population of switzerland then it is a country with the population of the US
[QUOTE=bagelred]Yes I realize its against the law. All I'm saying is punishment should fit the crime. But I think its important to see what other societies do and question our assumptions on how "bad" certain crimes are over others.....I just don't like this reflexive groupthink that "OMG....how COULD he.....THROW THE BOOK AT HIM....PUBLIC OUTCAST....". It's like, ok, CALM DOWN everyone........[/QUOTE]
your example was bad though. there are a million examples of sociey having different laws, different rules, sometimes warranted sometimes not.
plus this board isn't throwing the book at him, some people think he should be punished harshly, some don't. this board is notoriously forgiving of players faults, remember Marbury? There is no public lynching going on here, every thread is pretty balanced.
A Q & A with a law professor, specifically on the issue of voiding Gilbert's contract:
[QUOTE]Q: What kind of leverage does this give the team, if it's looking for a way to dump Gilbert's contract? Does he have to be convicted of a felony before any morals clause kicks in?
A: This is the real interesting issue, in my view. Clause 16 of the Uniform Player Contract empowers teams to void contracts and is vaguely worded to include not only criminal behavior, but behavior that is immoral. It has been seldom used, however (a recent example was the Celtics using it to terminate Vin Baker's contract, and that wasn't entirely successful, since it lead to a financial settlement with Baker).
Hypothetically, if the Wizards terminate Arenas' contract through Clause 16, the Players Association will vehemently object and file a grievance, which will be heard by an independent arbitrator.
Latrell Sprewell (with the Players' Association help) was able to get his contract with the Warriors reinstated, even though he chocked a coach, which is arguably worse than what Arenas did. Bottom line: if Arenas contract can be voided, think about what teams will do with other controversial players who have long-term, lucrative contracts. [/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/01/06/DI2010010603834.html"]Link[/URL]
[QUOTE=kkling]Not funny anymore is it, Gil?[/QUOTE]
It never was dude.
[QUOTE=OneMoreSucka]Hopefully he gets the maximum.[/QUOTE]
Why you want that. Gil is not a bad guy.
[QUOTE=oh the horror]Dude are you purposely not getting it, to annoy people?[/QUOTE]
No, hes just not getting it because hes just that stupid.
I'd love to see that fool to go to school or work tomorrow, lay four guns on a chair, and see what happens.
"but, your honor, they weren't loaded, whats the problem here?":confusedshrug:
They should work out a creative solution, because Gil's rich and might not even see prison time, let alone a maximum sentence. Make him start a charity for gun victims, get him to talk to inner-city classrooms, etc etc. I wouldn't want my tax dollars paying to keep him jailed either.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]A Q & A with a law professor, specifically on the issue of voiding Gilbert's contract:
[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2010/01/06/DI2010010603834.html"]Link[/URL][/QUOTE]
I find this ridiculous. CEOs and top executives get their contracts voided (they get fired) all the time. What makes professional athletes above all this? If there is a clause in the contract when players screw up, the team should have the option to use it. It's like athletes are in this protective bubble separated from the real world. Accountants and lawyers **** up and they lose their designation.... anyways it is just frustrating to see someone take for granted their gift and ability to make millions.
I've heard that he won't see jail time? Is this correct? So worst case he does some community service and gets to play pro ball again next year? I am curious to know what would happen to an 'average' person in this situation.
Wow. Hope he doesnt go to Jail :violin: but looks like the Wizard caught a break 4 the future if they had void his terrible contract
I agree with Charles when he said yes Gil should be punished but no it shouldn't be a copout for the Wiz to be able to void his horrible contract.
[QUOTE=bokes15]I agree with Charles when he said yes Gil should be punished but no it shouldn't be a copout for the Wiz to be able to void his horrible contract.[/QUOTE]
You know... I have to disagree. I understand that Gil was obviously just being stupid, but truth be told I wouldn't want an employee who brought firearms into work, loaded or not, so I'm siding with the Wizard's front office on this.
[QUOTE=bokes15]I agree with Charles when he said yes Gil should be punished but no it shouldn't be a copout for the Wiz to be able to void his horrible contract.[/QUOTE]
i don't see it as a copout...if arenas can't play for the wiz due to his stupidity that's his problem not the wizards, the wizards offered him a contract to play basketball, if arenas cannot fulfill his end of the bargain because of this i see no reason whatsoever that the wizards should be forced to uphold their end of the contract.
[QUOTE=bagelred]Why not read up on Switzerland, like I said. People carry guns AROUND with them. It's perfectly legal. And the crime rate is low. Something to think about it.[/QUOTE]
I'll do that. I'll also consider the fact that I've lived there.
In Switzerland, you have to have a permit to carry a gun. Most average people aren't rolling around town packing. Only if they're serving military service.
:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=33teeth]I'll do that. I'll also consider the fact that I've lived there.
In Switzerland, you have to have a permit to carry a gun. Most average people aren't rolling around town packing. Only if they're serving military service.
:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
what is the punishment for being found to have a gun without having a permit?
[QUOTE=gts]what is the punishment for being found to have a gun without having a permit?[/QUOTE]
I dunno but I'd bet that if you took some into your place of work (especially without a permit) you'd be fired. Or... lose your contract.
[QUOTE=33teeth]I dunno but I'd bet that if you took some into your place of work (especially without a permit) you'd be fired. Or... lose your contract.[/QUOTE]
/Thread
This is stupid. Possessing an unloaded gun is not an immoral act, I don't care where you have it. It's illegal for a good reason, but the outrage you all are feigning over this is ridiculous. And the paranoia over guns I also don't understand. No matter how afriad of it you are, a gun can't shoot you without a bullet in it.
For Arenas to go to jail for this for years would be an outrage. An absolute outrage. As would anyone else going to jail for years for "GUN OWNERSHIP" as a first charge. It would be the only time I've ever rooted for the NRA, if this were to happen.
The "he brought into a place of work" is also bull****. It's a locker room, not an office. If you have a gun behind the counter in the post office, that's a problem. Having an unloaded one tucked away in your locker on the other hand is just... weird and inappropriate. But hardly deserving of jail time. Arenas didn't take this seriously because why the **** would he, he didn't do anything wrong. At the very most, give him a < 1 month to make a point.
Now about the Crittenton stuff... what's up with that? That could be bad. If he drew a gun on a teammate, that's serious. But not "felony gun possession." Give me a f*cking break.
[QUOTE=Clifton]This is stupid. Possessing an unloaded gun is not an immoral act, I don't care where you have it. It's illegal for a good reason, but the outrage you all are feigning over this is ridiculous. And the paranoia over guns I also don't understand. No matter how afriad of it you are, a gun can't shoot you without a bullet in it.
For Arenas to go to jail for this for years would be an outrage. An absolute outrage. As would anyone else going to jail for years for "GUN OWNERSHIP" as a first charge. It would be the only time I've ever rooted for the NRA, if this were to happen.
The "he brought into a place of work" is also bull****. [B]It's a locker room, not an office. [/B]If you have a gun behind the counter in the post office, that's a problem. Having an unloaded one tucked away in your locker on the other hand is just... weird and inappropriate. But hardly deserving of jail time. Arenas didn't take this seriously because why the **** would he, he didn't do anything wrong. At the very most, give him a < 1 month to make a point.
Now about the Crittenton stuff... what's up with that? That could be bad. If he drew a gun on a teammate, that's serious. But not "felony gun possession." Give me a f*cking break.[/QUOTE]
Does Gilbert Arenas get a paycheck?
Yes.
Did Gilbert Arenas take firearms to his place of employment?
Yes.
btw, a construction site isn't an office either, but its still an area where work takes place. McDonalds isn't an office, but its still an area where work takes place. A lawn isn't an office, but its still an area where work takes place.
The building where Gilbert plays basketball,
is where his work takes place.
[QUOTE=DukeDelonte13]would be a sweet pick up for the lakes.[/QUOTE]
Lakers need Arenas like they needed Isiah Rider and Dennis Rodman. [IMG]http://smiliesftw.com/x/gtfo2.gif[/IMG]
Gotta love all these people comparing NBA players to regular people like they have the same consequences as we do. News flash....for the most part they don't.
We'll see what happens with his contract, though. I still don't believe that they will be able to void it. After his plea deal, give this guy a huge fine and sit him some more. No need for jail time IMO.
[QUOTE=bagelred]No, I get it. And Arenas should be punished for not obtaining a proper license. We get that. But you think he should be charged with a felony and go to jail for years for it? I don't.
No one was hurt. No one was threatened. No one was in any danger. The guns weren't loaded. Isn't that what we care about most?[/QUOTE]
Carelessness with guns is completely serious and should be punished. The world (or actually, just America) would be a much safer, nicer place if guns weren't so easily available.
Yes, nobody got hurt but things oculd have escalated. WHat if Crittenton was a bit crazy like Stephen Jackson? What if Crittenton was is a manic depressive person? He may have snapped and actually used the guns. What if an innocentWizard get shot because of this?
It sounds like a lot of "what ifs" but the fact is, you don't joke around with guns or anything that serious. You just don't. It's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to guns.
It IS a serious problem. Try watching the news everynight in America. It makes me sick. Gun is the last thing anyone should be joking about.
[QUOTE=Clifton]This is stupid. Possessing an unloaded gun is not an immoral act, I don't care where you have it. It's illegal for a good reason, but the outrage you all are feigning over this is ridiculous. And the paranoia over guns I also don't understand. No matter how afriad of it you are, a gun can't shoot you without a bullet in it.
For Arenas to go to jail for this for years would be an outrage. An absolute outrage. As would anyone else going to jail for years for "GUN OWNERSHIP" as a first charge. It would be the only time I've ever rooted for the NRA, if this were to happen.
The "he brought into a place of work" is also bull****. It's a locker room, not an office. If you have a gun behind the counter in the post office, that's a problem. Having an unloaded one tucked away in your locker on the other hand is just... weird and inappropriate. But hardly deserving of jail time. Arenas didn't take this seriously because why the **** would he, he didn't do anything wrong. At the very most, give him a < 1 month to make a point.
Now about the Crittenton stuff... what's up with that? That could be bad. If he drew a gun on a teammate, that's serious. But not "felony gun possession." Give me a f*cking break.[/QUOTE]
FINALLY, someone gets what I was trying to say.
If you want to get the message to Arenas, give him a month of jail time. Think about a full month in jail. Trust me, he'll avoid breaking the law ever again. And even THAT is ALOT of punishment.
But two years? three years? Insanity.......
Just a question, how many work places (moreso jobs they are linked to) have guarenteed contracts
You can''t just fire an NBA player because you arent happy with his performance or he makes a mistake
That is the difference
[QUOTE=icemanfan]choking PJ is not the same as a felony conviction. [B]The morals clause clearly covers this and the players union can go to hell.[/B] The union was designed to protect the innocent from the bully boss not the stupid guilty from being correctly fired.[/QUOTE]
This isn't true.
I could be stated in the contract, it probably is, and that would give the NBA the right to void Arenas' contract. True.
But.
If it goes to court, and it will if the NBA follows through, the court will take a new look at the validity of this. That both parties signed on something does not mean that it is absolute.
The court will take into consideration that Arenas will not do any jail time for instance, that this felony conviction will not incapacitate him to do his job. Not significantly anyway.
It's also pretty clear that if the Wizards were to void his contract, the biggest reason is not the morals aspect. The biggest reason is i the amount of money they can get back for a player that isn't worth nearly that amount anymore.
In court this will be considered as well, and this is hugely in favor of Arenas.
Personally I'm thinking if they try to void it's not going to hold up.
[QUOTE=LJJ]This isn't true.
I could be stated in the contract, it probably is, and that would give the NBA the right to void Arenas' contract. True.
But.
If it goes to court, and it will if the NBA follows through, the court will take a new look at the validity of this. That both parties signed on something does not mean that it is absolute.
The court will take into consideration that Arenas will not do any jail time for instance, that this felony conviction will not incapacitate him to do his job. Not significantly anyway.
It's also pretty clear that if the Wizards were to void his contract, the biggest reason is not the morals aspect. The biggest reason is i the amount of money they can get back for a player that isn't worth nearly that amount anymore.
In court this will be considered as well, and this is hugely in favor of Arenas.
Personally I'm thinking if they try to void it's not going to hold up.[/QUOTE]
Agreed, the Wizards should be doing all they can to help Arenas, they aren't and this doesnt look good
Its pretty obvious why they want to void the contract and I'm pretty sure it isnt a valid reason
[QUOTE=Clifton]This is stupid. Possessing an unloaded gun is not an immoral act, I don't care where you have it. It's illegal for a good reason, but the outrage you all are feigning over this is ridiculous. And the paranoia over guns I also don't understand. No matter how afriad of it you are, a gun can't shoot you without a bullet in it.
For Arenas to go to jail for this for years would be an outrage. An absolute outrage. As would anyone else going to jail for years for "GUN OWNERSHIP" as a first charge. It would be the only time I've ever rooted for the NRA, if this were to happen.
The "he brought into a place of work" is also bull****. It's a locker room, not an office. If you have a gun behind the counter in the post office, that's a problem. Having an unloaded one tucked away in your locker on the other hand is just... weird and inappropriate. But hardly deserving of jail time. Arenas didn't take this seriously because why the **** would he, he didn't do anything wrong. At the very most, give him a < 1 month to make a point.
Now about the Crittenton stuff... what's up with that? That could be bad. If he drew a gun on a teammate, that's serious. But not "felony gun possession." Give me a f*cking break.[/QUOTE]
I do agree that the outrage is a little silly. But he clearly broke both the law and the nba CBA. If you dont like it, work on changing the laws in DC (which has some of the toughest gun laws in the country). For a guy like GA, who has enough money to build a million $ pool (or whatever), to not bother to call a lawyer to figure out the proper and legal way to possess a gun in DC is just idiotic. There is a huge network of gun advocates who can help you figure out how to legally own guns where you live.
Hes a moron and he broke the law. He should expect the same treatment as anyone else.
[QUOTE=bagelred]No, I get it. And Arenas should be punished for not obtaining a proper license. We get that. But you think he should be charged with a felony and go to jail for years for it? I don't.
No one was hurt. No one was threatened. No one was in any danger. The guns weren't loaded. Isn't that what we care about most?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, BREAKING NEWS! the penalty for not having your gun properly licensed is a felony (in DC). so, if he should be punished, but not charged with the felony that was specifically set up for this, what? He should be outside the law?
[QUOTE=Clifton]
The "he brought into a place of work" is also bull****. It's a locker room, not an office. If you have a gun behind the counter in the post office, that's a problem. Having an unloaded one tucked away in your locker on the other hand is just... weird and inappropriate. But hardly deserving of jail time. Arenas didn't take this seriously because why the **** would he, he didn't do anything wrong. At the very most, give him a < 1 month to make a point.
[/QUOTE]
but he didnt just have the guns in his locked locker (if he had, no one would have ever known about it. Its obvious, based on crit's quick response, that a lot of nba players probably carry in the arenas - discretely).
He took 4 guns (which may have been loaded for all crit knew) and placed them in his cubicle, in public view. That could be construed as a direct threat to crit. and is obviously potentially dangerous.
Hes a moron and he deserves whats coming to him (which wont be much anyways).
as for the voiding of the contract not holding up in court, thats nonsense. The only reason the contracts are fully guaranteed is because of the cba. It will go to arbitration, not a court, and the cba clause will be upheld.
One last thing and then Im pretty much done on the topic.
I keep seeing quotes in the media that he didnt know it was illegal. Ignorance of the law is not a defense. Hes obviously a very poorly educated and trained gun owner (like a lot of people who have gold plated desert eagles, guns are about fitting an image for him). I saw somewhere that he owns "hundreds" of guns, yet he cant take the time out to figure out the proper way to register them? make one phone call and get a lackey to do it for you.
**** him, its people like him who make gun owners look bad (along with all the gunshow dealers who sell semi-auto arms to mexican cartels with no background checks).
[B]Amendment 2 - the Right to Bear Arms 12/15/1791
A well organized Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed.[/B]
In your constitution it clearly states the the right to bare arms is that of the Militia not of the average Joe. the militia are citizens who in times of national security will join up under the control of the president.
Is Gil in a militia...hell no! therefore it is an offense under [B]your[/B] constitution for him to bare arms. The last time I checked any form of gun is a firearm whether loaded or not.
Interestingly this would most probably mean 99% of gun holder in the US are committing a constitutional offense. Why then does your government not take all guns away from the public, surely it would solve a lot of problems?
And despite all of that...who the fukc takes a gun to work. OMG how dumb can you be...?
[QUOTE=spree43]Agreed, the Wizards should be doing all they can to help Arenas, they aren't and this doesnt look good
Its pretty obvious why they want to void the contract and I'm pretty sure it isnt a valid reason[/QUOTE]
The man brought firearms into their facilities for a prank. That is a [b]perfectly[/b] valid reason to fire someone. If I was in their position I wouldn't want him as an employee either. Why are people taking shots at the Wizards? Would you feel safe knowing one of your teammates likes to joke around and intimidate others with guns?
I don't think he should face heavy jail time, but losing his contract is perfectly reasonable, regardless of how much money it's worth.
[img]http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/112/99585.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=LuppersGB]Why then does your government not take all guns away from the public, surely it would solve a lot of problems?[/QUOTE]
can't be done, there's too many. you'd render the law abiding, registered gun owners gunless and the unregistered/black market gun owners armed. it would create more problems than it would solve.
people that are in such an emotionally irrational state that they feel the need to do harm to others are going to carry out their actions in any manner possible - see knives, explosives, obtaining guns illegally...
personally, i don't want the only people in this country with guns to be the government and the police.
look at the pacification of gunless societies. in the UK you can't even legally protect your own home with a kitchen knife.
[QUOTE=SayTownRy] in the UK you can't even legally protect your own home with a kitchen knife.[/QUOTE]
you can if they have a gun