Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93

[QUOTE=Alhazred]By the way, good point about certain legends having their choke moments forgotten. Larry Bird actually had a three game streak of scoring 8, 8 then 12 points in the third consecutive game of the 1981 Finals. He made up for it with excellent passing and rebounding, but it's funny to hear of a guy like Bird having shooting troubles, especially against a team that didn't even win half it's games that year![/QUOTE]
You're an idiot. Looks like someone didn't watch a single game from the series, understand Bird's role with the team at that point in his career or grasp the meaning of the word "choke". There are many other series to point to for Bird shooting poorly, playing poorly or "choking" and that is not one of them. Like seriously...you actually give the '81 finals series as an example of Bird "choking"? Wow :roll:

[QUOTE=branslowski]Although, these type of arguments should be your cup of tea...With the amount of Kobe fans who diminsh Shaq...(There's no diminishments on your part concerning Bryant though.)

Funny thing is, Jordan fans turn into Shaq fans in that and find a way to underrate the hell out of Kobe....Shocker..:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I admit I can probably sound like a Kobe hater at times when I'm going back and forth with annoying trolls, although more or less to make a point.

Rationally, most can agree that Kobe is top 10 or atleast in the discussion all time and currently, when healthy he's still top 2-3 in the league.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]You're an idiot. Looks like someone didn't watch a single game from the series, understand Bird's role with the team at that point in his career or grasp the meaning of the word "choke". There are many other series to point to for Bird shooting poorly, playing poorly or "choking" and that is not one of them. Like seriously...you actually give the '81 finals series as an example of Bird "choking"? Wow :roll:[/QUOTE]

Take it up with the NBA, then.

[url]http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19801981.html[/url]

[quote]The Celtics awoke with stifling defense and a 94-71 blowout of the Rockets at the Summit.[b] Cedric Maxwell did much of the work for Boston, as Bird was held to just eight points. Late in the game he and Reid got into a little fracas, which seemed to be more a result of Bird's frustrations than anything else.[/b]

Harris tightened things up in Game 4 by using just six players. [b]Bird was again held to just eight points[/b], while Malone ruled the inside. Houston got a lead, then held on for a 91-86 win that evened the series. Afterward, Malone had plenty to say. He told the media he could get four guys off the streets of Petersburg, Va., his hometown, and beat the Celtics. "I don't think they're all that good," he said. "I don't think they can stop us from doing what we want to do."

It seemed to be just the emotional spark the Celtics were looking for. "The man threw down a challenge," Maxwell replied, "and this is a team that responds well to challenges."

[b]In Game 5, Reid continued his defensive domination of Bird, holding him to 12 points. The Boston forward was averaging nearly 16 rebounds and eight assists during the series, but his shooting was nothing short of frosty. The rest of the Celtics, particularly Maxwell, took up the slack. They won at home, 109-80, to take a three-games-to-two lead.[/b][/quote]

I have a lot of respect for Larry, he was an amazing player. I am not trying to tear him down, only supporting Scottie's case.

Also, I wasn't even talking about the whole series, only those three games. He had a great game 6 and made the game-deciding three. :applause:

[quote]The series returned to Houston on Thursday, May 14, and Bird broke out of his slump. Boston had a six-point lead at the half and kept it down the stretch. [b]When Houston pulled close late in the fourth, Bird came downcourt and laced in his only three-pointer of the series, which propelled Boston to a 102-91 win and the team's 14th championship.[/b]

Afterward, in the locker room, Bird stole Auerbach's lit cigar and puffed impishly. "We're the champions," he said as he broke into a coughing spell.

"He's just one of a kind," said Fitch.[/quote]

Top Ten Players Ever in Order.

1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Michael Jordan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Scottie Pippen
9) Oscar Robertson
10) Tim Duncan


11) Shaquille O

[QUOTE=branslowski]Well, you dont come off as a Kobe hater to me...There's a difference between flat out hating for no reason and just owning idiot fans who have no clue.[/QUOTE]

Well, I don't consider myself a Kobe hater either. I'm not sure I'd call myself a fan, although I loved how he was playing early this season with his post game when he was shooting near 50%. For the most part I have enjoyed watching him play particularly from 2000-2003 and 2006-2009. I admit there were stretches were I thought he was selfish and didn't like the way he played(early 2000-2001 season, 2004 finals, January of this season). But I've always respected his skillset, work ethic and toughness.

I do find myself defending him when people call his MVP undeserved or that Gasol is the MVP of the team(which is both trash), but I just wish people would stop putting him up there with Jordan and acting like he was as good as Shaq during the 3peat because that's the other extreme.

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]Top Ten Players Ever in Order.

1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Michael Jordan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Scottie Pippen
9) Oscar Robertson
10) Tim Duncan


11) Shaquille O

[QUOTE=D-Rose]:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Why the hell is Scottie Pippen #8 on that idiots list?

[QUOTE=Alhazred]Take it up with the NBA, then.

[url]http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19801981.html[/url][/QUOTE]
Dude, he wasn't even looking for his shot at all. I'm not sure his exact FGA numbers but he barely took like 10 shots in a couple of those games. There was one, mayybe two, bad shooting games he had the entire series (bad shooting game to me is when you take 15+ shots and shoot poorly). Even more hilarious during this "choke moment" Bird would get a near triple double in every one of those games. EDIT: checked his FGA...and he took only 11 shots in two of those games, he spent his time playmaking (usually for Maxwell/Parish) and rebounding. at that point in his career, Bird literally never forced the issue, that is, he wasn't someone you would isolate repeatedly and ask to score (most his shots were off screens/plays, offensive rebounds, fast break etc etc). Only someone who hasn't seen a single game would cite that series as a "choke", and considering your posting history, it's clear you haven't seen that (or 99% of the games you discuss). So maybe instead of citing an obscure nba.com article, you could make an effort to watch the game instead of looking at point totals and drawing conclusions.

A choke moment for Bird would be the 1988 series vs. Detroit, not a finals series where he was the best player.

[QUOTE=catch24]Why the hell is Scottie Pippen #8 on that idiots list?[/QUOTE]

didnt read this thread....?

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
I do find myself defending him [b]when people call his MVP undeserved[/b] or that Gasol is the MVP of the team(which is both trash), but I just wish people would stop putting him up there with Jordan and acting like he was as good as Shaq during the 3peat because that's the other extreme.[/QUOTE]

[i]How[/i]? :wtf: Who deserved it more than him that year, Alonzo? :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=catch24]Why the hell is Scottie Pippen #8 on that idiots list?[/QUOTE]
and Shaq at 11.

robertshaw you have ZERO credibility after seeing that list oh man :roll:

[QUOTE=D-Rose]and Shaq at 11.

robertshaw you have ZERO credibility after seeing that list oh man :roll:[/QUOTE]


shaq is 11

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]didnt read this thread....?[/QUOTE]

What does 1991-93 have to do with his career ranking being totally off?

[QUOTE=Alhazred][i]How[/i]? :wtf: Who deserved it more than him that year, Alonzo? :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

I meant Kobe's 2008 award. Many claim he didn't deserve it which I disagree with 100%.

[QUOTE=catch24]What does 1991-93 have to do with his career ranking being totally off?[/QUOTE]

1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.

2- Pippen was the GREATEST defensive player to ever play the game.

3- Pippen, then, is top ten player al time.

4- IMO

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.

2- Pippen was the GREATEST defensive player to ever play the game.

3- Pippen, then, is top ten player al time.

4- IMO[/QUOTE]
1-Saying defense is more important then offense is stupid

2-There were plenty of better defensive players then Pippen. Just in his era alone, let alone all time.

[QUOTE]Funny thing is, Jordan fans turn into Shaq fans in that and find a way to underrate the hell out of Kobe....Shocker.[/QUOTE]

:lol Good point. The only time they rooted for Kobe was the 2000 WCF.

[QUOTE]Believe it or not, it's not simply diehard Jordan jockers who believe this. I've talked to some old school Pistons and Celtics fans back in my Youtube days of basketball discussion who stick him with that label. Well, that's what the dumbasses think, at least. I remember this one Bird fanboy who called Scottie a "dumb kid". He hated Jordan, too.[/QUOTE]

All I do on YT is watch videos so I can't speak to what people say there. I am not saying the only people who believe it are Jordan fans. What I am saying is the only people who actively push that line as part of an agenda all happen to be Jordan fans. Not all Jordan fans hate Pippen, but nearly all who hate Pippen are Jordan fans.

[QUOTE]Speaking of Magic, check his 1981 performance in the first round. He actually air balled a game deciding shot! Bill Simmons mentions it in his book.[/QUOTE]

True, and Kobe and Jordan also had similar moments (98', 95') but you never hear about that, and deservedly so. They were anomalies. The thing with Pippen is for years one game where he was not even 100% has been pushed. The other game you always hear about is the 2000 WCF Game 7 but there is zero context given on Pippen as a player at that point (some of the people who bash him for 2000 don't even know that Pippen in 00' was not anywhere near 98' Pippen and it is obvious what the big change was: his back injury), how massive underdogs Portland was (did anyone pick Portland to win at the time? Portland stumbled to the finish line and was facing the Shaq/Kobe/Rice 67 win juggernaut with Shaq having arguably the GOAT season), and the minor detail that Pippen dislocated his finger in Game 5. "He willed them back from the brink of elimination...". (they were down 1-3) That wasn't me. That was Bob Costas. Pippen had a monster Game 5 to keep the series alive: 22 points, 6 boards, 6 assists, 5 steals, and 4 blocks all with a dislocated finger and at a million years old. In other words, without that game there would never have been a Game 7. Basically all of Pippen's best playoff games from 1999-2003 were elimination games (99', 00', 02', 03'). I'll talk more about that in the 1999-2003 thread but don't you think this is an odd trend? A "choker" having his best playoff game in a given year in elimination games? :wtf:

[QUOTE]How? Who deserved it more than him that year, Alonzo? [/QUOTE]

He meant Kobe's MVP in 08'.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Dude, he wasn't even looking for his shot at all. I'm not sure his exact FGA numbers but he barely took like 10 shots in a couple of those games. There was one, mayybe two, bad shooting games he had the entire series (bad shooting game to me is when you take 15+ shots and shoot poorly). Even more hilarious during this "choke moment" Bird would get a near triple double in every one of those games. EDIT: checked his FGA...and he took only 11 shots in two of those games, he spent his time playmaking (usually for Maxwell/Parish) and rebounding. at that point in his career, Bird literally never forced the issue, that is, he wasn't someone you would isolate repeatedly and ask to score (most his shots were off screens/plays, offensive rebounds, fast break etc etc).[/QUOTE]

Fatal, I mentioned that Bird made up for it with his passing and rebounding. He did have trouble scoring on Reid, though, you have to admit that. He did average 22 points a game that year in the playoffs, after all.

Here is a link to the box scores.

[url]http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1981.htm#Game%20#3[/url]

Game 3

Bird had 3/11 field goals

Game 4

3/11 field goals

Game 5

5/16 field goals

The only reason I mentioned the 81 series is because it's comparable to some of Scottie's games where he'd have a poor shooting night but still contribute in other ways like game 5 of the 98 Finals, sorry if it sounded as if I was saying Bird had a bad performance overall. "Choke" was definitely the wrong term.

Even the announcers agree with me on this.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr-XEqQFYCc&feature=related[/url]

Skip to 1:35 and the announcers mention Reid's performance defending Larry.

Game 5 link below.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYoVrTNIJ8A&feature=related[/url]

"Larry Bird can do other things than score, he doesn't need to score, but boy, they're gonna have to get more than eight points from him."

At 1:25 they also mention Bird watching videos of Reid trying to figure out how to be more effective offensively.

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.

2- Pippen was the GREATEST defensive player to ever play the game.

3- Pippen, then, is top ten player al time.

4- IMO[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I meant Kobe's 2008 award. Many claim he didn't deserve it which I disagree with 100%.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, misread.

[QUOTE=magnax1]1-Saying defense is more important then offense is stupid

2-There were plenty of better defensive players then Pippen. Just in his era alone, let alone all time.[/QUOTE]

[B]Saying offense is more important then defense is stupid[/B] Believe me.

In fact, trade Pippen WITH ANY player of his era (i want the name) and Bulls wins 0 championships.

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1][B]Saying offense is more important then defense is stupid[/B] Believe me.

In fact, trade Pippen WITH ANY player of his era (i want the name) and Bulls wins 0 championships.[/QUOTE]
Trade Pippen with Glen rice and they win at least 1, probably 2. There are plenty of players who would win a couple rings. Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different. (on a somewhat related note, Dumars doesn't get any recognition. Hes a top 5 perimeter defender and was just as good as Isiah on those championship teams)
10 out of the last 25 last champions were the worse defensive teams. barely any difference, especially conisdering 4 were almost completely even.

[QUOTE=magnax1][b]Trade Pippen with Glen rice and they win at least 1, probably 2.[/b] There are plenty of players who would win a couple rings. Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different. (on a somewhat related note, Dumars doesn't get any recognition. Hes a top 5 perimeter defender and was just as good as Isiah on those championship teams)
10 out of the last 25 last champions were the worse defensive teams. barely any difference, especially conisdering 4 were almost completely even.[/QUOTE]

[i]Rice[/i]?! At least say Grant Hill, man.

[QUOTE=Alhazred][i]Rice[/i]?! At least say Grant Hill, man.[/QUOTE]
I think its plausible that they win 1 or 2 championships with Glen in the 90's. 96 they're still the best team and everyone is right in their prime. 91 and 92 they could get either year, but it'd be pretty flat even.

[QUOTE=magnax1]I think its plausible that they win 1 or 2 championships with Glen in the 90's. 96 they're still the best team and everyone is right in their prime. 91 and 92 they could get either year, but it'd be pretty flat even.[/QUOTE]

I don't know. Glen Rice wasn't nearly as useful as Scottie. He was a fairly one-dimensional scorer overall.

[QUOTE=magnax1]Trade Pippen with Glen rice and they win at least 1, probably 2. There are plenty of players who would win a couple rings. Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different. (on a somewhat related note, Dumars doesn't get any recognition. Hes a top 5 perimeter defender and was just as good as Isiah on those championship teams)
10 out of the last 25 last champions were the worse defensive teams. barely any difference, especially conisdering 4 were almost completely even.[/QUOTE]


glen rice!!!!! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[QUOTE]Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE]Rice?! At least say Grant Hill, man.[/QUOTE]

I actually agree with him (assuming we transport prime Rice back, not 91' Rice in 91'). I can see Jordan winning in 91' and 96' without a superstar caliber "sidekick" like Pippen in those years so long as he had a legit all-star but there is no way you can plug in a random all-star for 92', 93', 97', or 98' and say the Bulls would win. The Bulls easily could have lost in those seasons had they not had the luxury of having two superstars.

The thing is why is there always so much talk about other players Jordan could win with? The assumption is Pippen could not win with anyone other than Jordan, which is a joke. Prime Pippen on the 00' Blazers, or even a Pippen without the 98' finals injury, on that team wins a ring. You don't exactly have to conjure up a wild scenario like Pippen playing with Shaq and Clyde Drexler with Grant Hill coming off the bench to envision Pippen winning a ring without Jordan.

The bottom line is Jordan himself did not believe the Bulls could plug in any random talented player into Pippen's place. See Jordan's opposition to trading Pippen for young talent. See Jordan retiring after Pippen finally was traded. If Jordan could coast with any talented player why not push for, or at least allow, a trade for a player like Kemp or McDyess*? In the long term that would appear to be better, no? The other "sidekick" would be young and Jordan could have kept winning rings until he was 38 or 39 instead of being paired with an older player like Pippen whose days as a superstar player were numbered by that point. Was Jordan too dumb to realize what some of his fans "know"? I have heard MJ called many things but dumb is not one of them. There is a reason for that!

*Yes, we know what happened to Kemp and McDyess but at the time in theory--if you believe MJ could win with any talented teammate--it would be better in the long-term to trade Pippen for someone like Kemp based on youth.

Rice?? NO WAY...no even mention it..

What? Dumars is as good of a passer, and as good of a defender. He was a worse scorer but not a huge difference. Though Dumars prime was quite a bit shorter then pippen's.
I agree that Pippen would win on the 00 Blazers but I don't think he could win on a team where hes the only first option if you get what I'm saying. It'd have to be a team effort like the 00 Blazers, or 04 Pistons because he just wasn't a good enough scorer to take over games on offense.

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.
[/QUOTE]

but there has never been a defense that was good enough to win over prime Shaqs offense.

[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]but there has never been a defense that was good enough to win over prime Shaqs offense.[/QUOTE]

Shaqs Prime Offense????

His prime was only 3 years??????????????? (00: Miracle against portland, 01, and 02, steal against sacramento)

And in 03 against spurs????? or in 98 and 99...???


oooh....I see.....

[QUOTE]What? Dumars is as good of a passer, and as good of a defender. He was a worse scorer but not a huge difference. Though Dumars prime was quite a bit shorter then pippen's.
I agree that Pippen would win on the 00 Blazers but I don't think he could win on a team where hes the only first option if you get what I'm saying. It'd have to be a team effort like the 00 Blazers, or 04 Pistons because he just wasn't a good enough scorer to take over games on offense.[/QUOTE]

What other first option was there on the 00' Blazers? 25 year old, borderline all-star Rasheed Wallace? 35 year old Sabonis with shot knees? If prime Pippen is on that team he is the clear cut best player. Another realistic scenario (almost happened) is the 94' Bulls with Hornacek replacing Myers as SG. You are acting as if Pippen was Chauncey Billups.

He was a top 10 scorer in the L without Jordan in his prime. I see your point, but his greatness was in other areas. Using your logic Bill Russell would never exist since he couldn't drop 50 on a given night. Or Bill Walton, who led a team to a ring averaging something like 18 ppg. 30/12/8 is as valuable, if not more valuable, than 45/3/2. Then there is Pippen's defensive dominance. Pippen could score 4 points and dominate a game. This is one reason why some great scorers are ringless. When their shot was off they were useless.

Dumars simply was not as good a player. Where was he between Isiah's decline and the drafting of Grant Hill? He wasn't carrying teams to 55 wins. Don't get me wrong. He was a great player but he was never a top 5 player. Yes, I know you think Pippen never was top 5 either but the majority view in his prime had him top 5, especially from 1994-96.

[QUOTE]What other first option was there on the 00' Blazers? 25 year old, borderline all-star Rasheed Wallace? If prime Pippen is on that team he is the clear cut best player. Another realistic scenario is the 94' Bulls with Hornacek replacing Myers as SG. [/QUOTE]
I agree he was the absoulute best player no question, but on offense he wouldn't have to score 20 ppg and do everything for the team in the last couple minutes of a close game. Just like KG was obviously the best player in 08, but had trouble winning as the first offensive option.
[QUOTE]Dumars simply was not as good a player. Where was he between Isiah's decline and the drafting of Grant Hill? He wasn't carrying teams to 55 wins.[/QUOTE]
His second best player in 94 was terry Mills and his third best was 14-7 Isiah who played 60 games. Quite a large difference from Horace grant Toni Kukoc and Phil Jackson. Especially considering 94-96 was Pippen's absoulute peak and dumars was leaving his prime in 94.

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1][B]Saying offense is more important then defense is stupid[/B] Believe me.

In fact, trade Pippen WITH ANY player of his era (i want the name) and Bulls wins 0 championships.[/QUOTE]
LMFAO :lol :roll: :oldlol: Shaq,Grant hill,Clyde,Alanzo,Mt,payton,Stackton,karl malone, etc....

No way would the Bulls be as good with Dumars. They lose the versatility of having either Jordan or Pippen guard positions 1-3, they lose Pippen running the offense like a point guard from the SF position, they lose Pippen's rebounding and they lose Pippen's open court game.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]No way would the Bulls be as good with Dumars. They lose the versatility of having either Jordan or Pippen guard positions 1-3, they lose Pippen running the offense like a point guard from the SF position, they lose Pippen's rebounding and they lose Pippen's open court game.[/QUOTE]

Co-sign

I guess I didn't really think about losing versatility, but they definitely aren't much worse. He was the closest fit to Pippen i could think of. There aren't many players like Pippen. Payton is closer, but they still lose a bit of versatility.

[QUOTE]I agree he was the absoulute best player no question, but on offense he wouldn't have to score 20 ppg and do everything for the team in the last couple minutes of a close game.[/QUOTE]

You are simultaneously right and wrong. I agree, in such a situation he would not need to score a ton every night but that does not necessarily mean he would not have to carry a huge load. Look at what he actually did on the 2000 Blazers in the playoffs:

*Serve as their primary playmaker
*Serve as their defensive anchor
*Lead them in rebounding
*Lead them in minutes (why was an ancient Pippen getting so many minutes? He was that important to the team)
*Be their on-court leader
*Be their locker room leader
*Score only 3 less ppg than their leading scorer (Wallace)

If he was in his prime he would have been asked to do even more, especially regarding scoring! This is what is lost in the shuffle. Given his versatility and all-around game he carried an unusually large workload, especially in the years he was a "sidekick." How many "sidekicks" had as much responsibility on their team as Pippen did? People talk about 94' but forget that he had to do practically everything for that team, to the point that commentators were laughing in amazement over it. He lead them in every category in the playoffs (23/8/5 etc.), aside from blocks where he was "only" second, while serving as their leader and defensive anchor.

[QUOTE]Quite a large difference from Horace grant Toni Kukoc [/QUOTE]

Kukoc was a 11/4/3 43% shooting rookie in 94'.

Not really a big difference. Dumars' best years were the early 90's when Isiah had declined, right? Look at what Pippen did in 95' after Grant left. Before MJ came back he had his team in 6th and closing rapidly on 5th (third best record in the East after the ASG at 11-6. Keep in mind they lost two starters from the previous season. They elevated Kukoc from 6th man to starter without finding an adequate replacement. it took time to adjust to significant changes.). Did he have a great "supporting cast"? Kukoc was his second best player and Kukoc was playing out of position at PF, where he was a joke on the glass (5 rpg) and defensively. The Bulls had zero interior defense and zero rebounding. What Pippen is criticized by some for in 95' is what KG, Kobe, Durant and Wade are lionized for doing recently.

A top 5 player could lead practically any team to above .500 imo; Dumars was not at that level.

[QUOTE]I guess I didn't really think about losing versatility, but they definitely aren't much worse. He was the closest fit to Pippen i could think of. There aren't many players like Pippen. Payton is closer, but they still lose a bit of versatility.[/QUOTE]

You tend to compare players based on skill-sets. You have to factor in skill level too, though. Iggy is a similar player to Pippen. Does that mean you could plug Iggy onto the Bulls and win rings? Of course Dumars is closer to Pippen than Iggy is but you get my point.

Can anyone explain why there is such an obsession over who else Jordan could have won with? Prime Pippen would have won with Rasheed Wallace as his "sidekick." Does that somehow make Jordan a worse player?

[QUOTE]You are simultaneously right and wrong. I agree, in such a situation he would not need to score a ton every night but that does not necessarily mean he would not have to carry a huge load. Look at what he actually did on the 2000 Blazers in the playoffs:

*Serve as their primary playmaker
*Serve as their defensive anchor
*Lead them in rebounding
*Lead them in minutes (why was an ancient Pippen getting so many minutes? He was that important to the team)
*Be their on-court leader
*Be their locker room leader
*Score only 3 less ppg than their leading scorer (Wallace)
[/QUOTE]
He had to carry a huge load, he just didn't have to be the absoulute first option on offense in the last minutes.
[QUOTE]This is what is lost in the shuffle. Given his versatility and all-around game he carried an unusually large workload, especially in the years he was a "sidekick." How many "sidekicks" had as much responsibility on their team as Pippen did? People talk about 94' but forget that he had to do practically everything for that team. He lead them in every category in the playoffs (23/8/5 etc.), aside from blocks where he was "only" second, while serving as their leader and defensive anchor.
[/QUOTE]
Kevin McHale could've done the same without Bird, its not like its unusual for the second best player on a championship team to be able to bring a team into the playoffs. thats not taking away from what he did, I'm just saying pretty much every championship team except for a few had great second options, probably most were as good as Pippen.

[QUOTE]Not really a big difference. Dumars' best years were the early 90's when Isiah had declined, right? Look at what Pippen did in 95'. Before MJ came back he had his team in 6th and closing rapidly on 5th (third best record in the East after the ASG at 11-6). Did he have a great "supporting cast"? Kukoc was his second best player and Kukoc was playing out of position at PF, where he was a joke on the glass (5 rpg) and defensively. The Bulls had zero interior defense and zero rebounding. What Pippen is criticized by some for in 95' is what KG, Kobe, Durant and Wade are lionized for doing recently.
[/QUOTE]
The bulls did suck that year.


[QUOTE]You tend to compare players based on skill-sets. You have to factor in skill level too, though. Iggy is a similar player to Pippen. Does that mean you could plug Iggy onto the Bulls and win rings? Of course Dumars is closer to Pippen than Iggy is but you get my point.[/QUOTE]
Payton is the closest. Basically flat even even though they are different positions.

[QUOTE]He had to carry a huge load, he just didn't have to be the absoulute first option on offense in the last minutes. [/QUOTE]

He would have been if he was in his prime back then. Plus, why boil down a game to the final 2-3 minutes and even then only to scoring? When was Bill Russell the first option to score?

[QUOTE]Kevin McHale could've done the same without Bird, its not like its unusual for the second best player on a championship team to be able to bring a team into the playoffs[/QUOTE]

Was McHale asked to do as much as Pippen? For instance, was McHale running his team's offense? McHale is not a good example. He was a guy who would be "the man" on practically any other team.

All that said, McHale had a year without Bird when he was 30 or 31. He had the whole team intact minus Bird (sound familiar?). The result? Below .500 without Bird. I have heard he was hurt a bit that year but he was still putting up 23/8.

[QUOTE]I'm just saying pretty much every championship team except for a few had great second options, probably most were as good as Pippen.[/QUOTE]

I am not surprised to hear you say that but I will pose this for general readers. Let's look at the most recent champions and their "second options."

Gasol, Pierce, Parker, 06' Shaq, whoever it was on the 04' Pistons, and :oldlol: 03' Spurs. Were any close to Pippen? Certainly none had the responsibilities Pippen had.

For further context here are the "#2 options" the Bulls defeated in the NBA finals:

Worthy, Terry Porter, K. Johnson, Kemp, (old) Stockton.

How about the ECF? Dumars, Daughetry, Starks, Penny, Mourning, Smits.

None of these players listed were as good as Pippen. You make it seem as if Pippen was a dime a dozen player.

[QUOTE]The bulls did suck that year. [/QUOTE]

edit: did you mean the team or the Bulls' "cast" pre-Jordan?

Why did you ignore KG, Kobe, Wade, and Durant? In Pippen's case all that matters is they did not win 50+; the others are heroes for reaching .500. Pippen had the team in 6th and closing rapidly on 5th. They were on pace for 45 wins even without Jordan and that would have gotten them 5th place, ahead of the 43 win Cavs. KG missed the playoffs how many times? Durant may miss it this year. We know about Kobe. Wade? May miss it this year, barely got past .500 last year (43-39). Yet they are all heroes for getting to 43-45 wins?

[QUOTE]Payton is the closest. Basically flat even even though they are different positions.[/QUOTE]

Except for that crucial difference in height and hence versatility. Pippen did everything Payton did but was more versatile and an excellent rebounder. Garnett and Lebron are similar players to Pippen as well. I notice Jordan fans (and whatever you are. Let's call you a Jazz fan who strongly admires MJ) only compare Pippen to players everyone else agrees were worse them him, Payton or even Iggy or Odom. Why not Havelick, Garnett, and Lebron? The all-time great most similar to Pippen is Havelick.

Speaking of Payton, he would have won a ring as the best player on his team in 96' had he not run into a 72 win juggernaut. He had horrible timing.