Kevin Mchale vs Dirk Nowitzki All time

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]I didn't say that. But to say he makes you offense flow better? This is flat out wrong. McHale wasn't the Duncan/Shaq type where you could dump it inside and they'd kick it out to the open man. McHale couldn't and didn't run the offense. Dirk does.

And no, he didn't always pass the ball when he needed to. He wasn't nicknamed "The Black Hole" by Danny Ainge for no reason.[/QUOTE]
You're right, McHale probably couldn't score like Dirk could. But Dirk couldn't even come close to playing the defense or rebounding like McHale could, and that's more than half the game right there. Mchale was greater and better, not to mention McHale had sick post moves, Dirk is too busy taking elbow jumpers.

10 votes for Dirk
9 votes for Mchale

[QUOTE=Harison]Hard choice, McHale has like the best footwork ever, only Hakeem and few others come close, so if your team needs [B]highly [/B]efficient post player who gets it done, Mchale is the choice. If you need PF who spreads the floor - Dirk is amazing.

McHale peaked at 26.1/9.9/2.6 at 60.3% FG! Thats an insane efficiency, even Shaq in his prime havent reached that.

Dirk peaked at 26.6/9.0/2.8 at 48% FG. In regular season McHale was considerably better, [B]how about playoffs?[/B]

McHale 25.4/8.0/2.4 at 60.3% FG
Dirk 27.0/11.7/2.9 at 46.8% FG.

Dirk is more clutch, but I doubt he is better rebounder though, McHale played with two other ~7ft who each grabbed ~10 rebounds, while Dirk is the main rebounder. IMO as primary rebounder Mchale would grab as much if not more.

For primary option I [I]might [/I]pick Dirk, he elevates his game in the Playoffs, and I value clutchness a lot. His prime lasted longer. But its hard to build around soft jumpshooter, and I dont need to go far to prove my point - with a lot of regular season success Dirk's teams fall flat in the Playoffs, always.

McHale is better as a second option, but then again we dont know how he would have done as a 1st option, super stacked teams makes it harder to evaluate such solid role player. But make no mistake - Dirk wouldnt be 1st option on Bird's Celtics as well.

[B]Bottom line: I would probably choose McHale[/B], as 1st option IMO his points and rebounds would go up, efficiency would go slightly down. Team up him with someone like Ray, Pierce or Melo, and you are set for the Playoffs too. McHale efficiency is mind boggling, he had range too. Against current weak frontcourts he would have a field day, probably 28/12 with 55%, definitely a Top5 player.[/QUOTE]

[B]Great Analysis.[/B]

[B]:applause: McHale was the "2nd Best Scoring PF of All Time in the 2-Point Region" after Barkley and as a "Defender in the Paint"...Better than Dirk. Rebounding wise maybe better too. Dirk was a Better "Off the Dribble Scorer", "Pure Shooter" and "Game Creator" (maybe even "Better Passer")[/B]

[QUOTE=TrueDiesel3]You're right, McHale probably couldn't score like Dirk could. But Dirk couldn't even come close to playing the defense or rebounding like McHale could, and that's more than half the game right there. Mchale was greater and better, not to mention McHale had sick post moves, Dirk is too busy taking elbow jumpers.[/QUOTE]

It's not about scoring. It's about running your offense through someone, which is by far the most important aspect of a great #1 option. Dirk is that guy, McHale is not, because he, despite being a great scorer, was never and could never have been the focal point of an offense

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]It's not about scoring. It's about running your offense through someone, which is by far the most important aspect of a great #1 option. Dirk is that guy, McHale is not, because he, despite being a great scorer, was never and could never have been the focal point of an offense[/QUOTE]
McHale was more efficient than Dirk, did you watch McHale live? I didn't, and I'll admit that, but based off of stats and accomplishments there's no question that McHale was greater and better than Dirk was.

i think the answer is as follows:

as a franchise type player or number 1 option of a team you clearly want Dirk. Mchale wouldn't be capable of leading a team to the success Dirk has without the help of other great players (as in hall of famers). Dirk is better in crunch time and can take over a game more easily....especially down the stretch.

as the the number 2 option I think its clear you would want mchale. he provides defense, low post scoring, and toughness. mchale was capable at carrying the scoring load a times as well.

i like to think of this as comparing gasol to dirk currently. dirk is more capable of having success in the playoffs and regular season as the main guy. while gasol is a better fit for a 2nd banana role.

This thread illustrates why different players fit different roles and why we should not try to fit every player into the same mold. all players have strengths and weaknesses and fit better in certain roles.

for example, dirk would not thrive in a role that forced him to try and anchor a defense or score in the low post. mchale would not thrive in a role that required him to score 26 a game night in night out without another great player.

just like wade/lebron/kobe would not thrive in the role of a gerald wallace or prince type player.....and vice versa.

so my answer:

as a number 1 option and leader of a team.....easily Dirk.
as a number 2 option that provides toughness, low post scoring, and defense.....easily Mchale.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]i think the answer is as follows:

as a franchise type player or number 1 option of a team you clearly want Dirk. Mchale wouldn't be capable of leading a team to the success Dirk has without the help of other great players (as in hall of famers). Dirk is better in crunch time and can take over a game more easily....especially down the stretch.

as the the number 2 option I think its clear you would want mchale. he provides defense, low post scoring, and toughness. mchale was capable at carrying the scoring load a times as well.

i like to think of this as comparing gasol to dirk currently. dirk is more capable of having success in the playoffs and regular season as the main guy. while gasol is a better fit for a 2nd banana role.

This thread illustrates why different players fit different roles and why we should not try to fit every player into the same mold. all players have strengths and weaknesses and fit better in certain roles.

for example, dirk would not thrive in a role that forced him to try and anchor a defense or score in the low post. mchale would not thrive in a role that required him to score 26 a game night in night out without another great player.

just like wade/lebron/kobe would not thrive in the role of a gerald wallace or prince type player.....and vice versa.

so my answer:

as a number 1 option and leader of a team.....easily Dirk.
as a number 2 option that provides toughness, low post scoring, and defense.....easily Mchale.[/QUOTE]


Good points. Agree with most of that.

When comparing players it is important to look in context at what the role of the player was within the team. I think when deciding which of the two is better, i think your right in saying McHale is the better number 2 and Dirk is the better number 1. But i feel If the roles were reversed, Dirk would probably be better at McHales job, than vice versa. Marginally.

So i give the nod to Dirk

Dirk!!!!!!

[QUOTE=TrueDiesel3]McHale was more efficient than Dirk, did you watch McHale live? I didn't, and I'll admit that, but based off of stats and accomplishments there's no question that McHale was greater and better than Dirk was.[/QUOTE]
Well, without knowledge of the context, you can't just take stats and accomplishments as a basis. If a guy like Bird, who was in consideration for GOAT at his time, would play next to Dirk (or better yet, Dirk next to Bird, let's stay honest), his stats, especially his FG%, would inflate a lot, cause he would be able to get more open looks etc. And to most people who actually watched McHale, it's clear that he is not a greater and better player.

12 votes for Dirk
10 votes for Mchale

There are seriously people who think this is mchale? First off how is dirk "not nearly the rebounder mchale was?" Their career rebounds per 36 minutes are 8.5 for mchale and 8.3 per dirk while mchale played at a MUCH faster pace and was doing so while much fresher because he didnt play much and playing closer to the basket which opened up more offensive rebounds.

[QUOTE=TrueDiesel3]McHale was more efficient than Dirk, did you watch McHale live? I didn't, and I'll admit that, but based off of stats and accomplishments there's no question that McHale was greater and better than Dirk was.[/QUOTE]

in what parallel universe does McHale have more accomplishments and better stats?

I take Dirk Nowitzki.

He was more of a franchise player and all-around player than Mchale was, Kevin had superb post-moves, but Dirk had major capacity to take over games and win them by himself. McHale was a good defensive player, better than Dirk, but not that much better to conclude as a decisive factor.

Its not a far-fetched comparison, and in some ways its close, but I think Nowitzki was somehow the better player.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]i think the answer is as follows:

as a franchise type player or number 1 option of a team you clearly want Dirk. Mchale wouldn't be capable of leading a team to the success Dirk has without the help of other great players (as in hall of famers). Dirk is better in crunch time and can take over a game more easily....especially down the stretch.

as the the number 2 option I think its clear you would want mchale. he provides defense, low post scoring, and toughness. mchale was capable at carrying the scoring load a times as well.

i like to think of this as comparing gasol to dirk currently. dirk is more capable of having success in the playoffs and regular season as the main guy. while gasol is a better fit for a 2nd banana role.

This thread illustrates why different players fit different roles and why we should not try to fit every player into the same mold. all players have strengths and weaknesses and fit better in certain roles.

for example, dirk would not thrive in a role that forced him to try and anchor a defense or score in the low post. mchale would not thrive in a role that required him to score 26 a game night in night out without another great player.

just like wade/lebron/kobe would not thrive in the role of a gerald wallace or prince type player.....and vice versa.

so my answer:

as a number 1 option and leader of a team.....easily Dirk.
as a number 2 option that provides toughness, low post scoring, and defense.....easily Mchale.[/QUOTE]


this line of thought is why I have not yet fired you from my front office. RBA is getting kept on as a boxing consultant only.

Though I am considering making you work on Christmas, New Years and Easter as punishment.


McHale was on a team that perfectly suited him. Dirk has been on some very good teams but they have never been properly built around him due to a variety of reasons.

to annihilate Go Getters bias vote:

Dirk

Kevin Mchale. Not just for the shimmy either.

[IMG]http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r132/b_lew/antoine_walker-1.jpg[/IMG]

[quote]Troll post

Mchale - 3 NBA Championship Rings

Dirk - 0 ring[/quote]

I hated these kind of posts.

Never finished taking count :lol

Dirk

[QUOTE=Lebron23]I hated these kind of posts.[/QUOTE]
smh...

Derek Fisher has 5 rings, but AI has 0. does that make Fisher the better player?

Too easy. McHale, one of the best low post players of all time.

This is like Kobe vs LeBron

McHale has the achivements, but Dirk is the better player.

Dirk for me.

[QUOTE=Papaya Petee]This is like Kobe vs LeBron

McHale has the achivements, but Dirk is the better player.

Dirk for me.[/QUOTE]

what achievements does McHale have that Dirk has not, other than the championships he won mostly due to Bird?

[QUOTE=Manute for Ever!]Possibly the best footwork I've ever seen, no ego, never minded if he was a starter or coming off the bench, just go the job done.

McHale [U]any[/U] day.[/QUOTE]


McHale without any question.

Most of these guys never saw him play.....his best season is identical to Tim Duncan's best season.....statistically. McHale had big time all around skills....Dirk is just a shooter.

Lol Dirk is just way better.

Dirk 17
Mchale 13

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]what achievements does McHale have that Dirk has not, other than the championships he won mostly due to Bird?[/QUOTE]


Way to have a good understanding of basketball on a basketball forum. :rolleyes:

To some posts above:
1. McHale is not the better second option (Dirk clearly is), he is the better role player (at most).
2. Anyone thinking that Kevin is a better rebounder, or passer hasn't really watched these guys play much.
3. The guy that called McHale the GOAT defensive PF needs to get pimpsmacked.

Dirk by a landslide.

[QUOTE=Flamboyant]To some posts above:
1. McHale is not the better second option (Dirk clearly is), he is the better role player (at most).
2.[B][U] Anyone thinking that Kevin is a better rebounder, or passer hasn't really watched these guys play much.[/U][/B]
3. The guy that called McHale the GOAT defensive PF needs to get pimpsmacked.

Dirk by a landslide.[/QUOTE]
You sure you don't wanna rephrase that

Dirk, McHale was great and at his best, a better scorer, but Dirk's longevity is superior and he's been a franchise player, MVP and consistent MVP candidate for years now. He really changed the power forward position.

I don't particularly care for where they rank on an all-time list, but McHale was the better player. Really wish Celtics won in '85 or '87 but the team was dealing with injuries ('85 it was Bird's shooting elbow, '87 it was basically the entire team). McHale would have won the finals MVP if Celtics won in either of those years, and also had one of the best non-finals MVP winning series against Hakeem in '86.

McHale was the better scorer (probably the best half court scorer ever at his position for me), better defender and I prefer his type of offense to Dirk's. McHale's passing sometimes gets diminished because he was a "black hole" but that's because he was so damn efficient. It wasn't a skill he was lacking, can't really compare assist numbers to measure ability when one guy can score on you at will and as a result is a bit less likely to pass back out. He played on the best passing team that I've ever seen in the '86 Celtics, and did nothing to hurt their ball movement.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]You sure you don't wanna rephrase that[/QUOTE]

Which one you think is wrong, rebounding, or passing?

Rebounding: Kevin played in a faster era, and much closer to the basket, and yet doesn't have any huge advantage on Dirk. In playoffs, Dirk turns it up, and has multiple postseason with 10+ boards. Just checked, and indeed McHale has none.

Passing: I'm not gonna pretend Dirks passing is something special, in fact even as a Mavs fan I have (and will) knocked Dirk for his passing in every Bird comparison. But he is just flat out better than Kevin. Everything Brunch@Five has said was dead on. Kevin was indeed a black hole. If you believe comparing these two is actually similar to comparing Dirk v Pau, than I don't know what to say.

[QUOTE=Flamboyant]Rebounding: Kevin played in a faster era, and much closer to the basket, and yet doesn't have any huge advantage on Dirk. In playoffs, Dirk turns it up, and has multiple postseason with 10+ boards. Just checked, and indeed McHale has none.[/QUOTE]
McHale was also on a frontline that had Bird and Parish getting 10 boards a night. Weren't many free defensive rebounds to grab, compare their offensive rebound numbers and McHale puts Dirk to shame. Dirk is absolutely not a better rebounder.

[quote]McHale was also on a frontline that had Bird and Parish getting 10 boards a night. Weren't many free defensive rebounds to grab, compare their offensive rebound numbers and McHale puts Dirk to shame. Dirk is absolutely not a better rebounder.[/quote]

And McHale is not a better rebounder as well. I mean if you are going to play the card of :McHale couldn't grab defensive boards because of Bird and Parrish grabbing them all.....

Then someone else can say: Dirk couldn't grab offensive boards because he wasn't camped out in the paint on offense. And he wasn't the 3rd option on offense so therefore he didn't have as many opportunities to grab offensive rebounds.

See? It works both ways.

They are about equal in rebounding. The major difference though is Dirk has been rebounding for a much longer time period than McHale did.

Dirk has the longevity, but McHale shits on him defensively. McHale was also the more clutch of the two. My vote is for Big Kev.

[quote]McHale was also the more clutch of the two.[/quote]

How many gamewinners did McHale have in his career? I am guessing not that many at all. And for those that say: well he had to play with one of the clutchest players ever in Bird.

That is true. So how do you know that McHale is clutch then? And if it isn't gamewinners then what are you using to define your clutchness?

McHale. though he was a traditional pf while Dirk is a point forward. u can't really compare the 2 since their styles are so different IMO.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]I don't particularly care for where they rank on an all-time list, but McHale was the better player. Really wish Celtics won in '85 or '87 but the team was dealing with injuries ('85 it was Bird's shooting elbow, '87 it was basically the entire team). McHale would have won the finals MVP if Celtics won in either of those years, and also had one of the best non-finals MVP winning series against Hakeem in '86.

McHale was the better scorer (probably the best half court scorer ever at his position for me), better defender and I prefer his type of offense to Dirk's. McHale's passing sometimes gets diminished because he was a "black hole" but that's because he was so damn efficient. It wasn't a skill he was lacking, can't really compare assist numbers to measure ability when one guy can score on you at will and as a result is a bit less likely to pass back out. He played on the best passing team that I've ever seen in the '86 Celtics, and did nothing to hurt their ball movement.[/QUOTE]

Good post, I actually thought McHale was a skilled passer. '86 or '87 Kevin McHale may have been better, but it's hard to compare. I go with Dirk because he was an MVP, consistent MVP candidate and he led his team to the finals with a great playoff run.

I guess it's not a fair comparison because McHale was never in the franchise player role.

If you break them down skill by skill then McHale at his peak wins, but often times, that doesn't necessarily tell who is the better player.

Dirk is the better player. But I imagine had Dirk began his career before McHale then there would be tons of posters on this board saying: How dare you compare McHale to Dirk! Dirk is easily the better player.

Right now what we have going on is good ole day syndrome. The memories of McHale is becoming embellished to prop him up when in reality he was has not been been on Dirk's level for quite a while.

The one who could actually backdown Tony Parker instead of shoot 15 foot fadeaways over him and the one who has won rings.