What is Kobe's legacy if he beats Miami's big 3 in the finals?

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]True. But he had about 2 good games that series, 2-3 atrocious ones, and 2 decent ones. He wouldn't even have gotten to that point if not for his great teammates. In fact, he wouldn't have made it out of the first round if not for his great teammates.

I'm not trying to "hate" here but this is what I see as the truth. No one else last season had the luxury of stringing together bad games and still winning, except Tim Duncan.[/QUOTE]
Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.

What if the Lakers beat Miami while Kobe shot like crap?

[QUOTE=TROLL_HUNTER]
Kobe 's nutters make it sound as if it were Kobe standing up against the whole Miami team on his own and THAT FAILS :facepalm[/QUOTE]

this

[QUOTE=rzp]No its not ridiculous... check Miami's second best scorer numbers.

Then check the freakin insane Lakers Shaq's numbers.

Wade carried the team, Kobe not. Thats the little difference

Kobe never carried the team in his 5 rings btw.[/QUOTE]

That isn't the point. Kobe was as effective/dominant as supposed "second fiddle" as Dwyane Wade in his championship year. I'm not comparing the quality of their teams, only individual performance. What's the point of pointing out "prime Shaq" when he's already won twice with a 2nd scorer a dozen or so ppg below Shaq? It's simply not as extreme as needing a "prime shaq" to win. People continue to change the criteria in last ditch efforts to diminish anything he's accomplished.

The last statement doesn't even warrant a response.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I get a kick out of posts like these...

Kobe had a bad SHOOTING night in that game seven. His teammates were of no help, and continually looked to Kobe to make the shots. In the meantime, Kobe's determination and grit, with his 15 rebounds and great defense, kept LA in the game...and the Lakers were champions.

How did Kobe do in the previous rounds? How did Kobe do in the San Antonio series throughout his career? Why is it that Kobe had FOUR post-seasons of over 30 ppg, and SEVEN higher than Bird's BEST scoring post-season?

And does anyone actually believe that Kobe will be remembered for demanding a trade a few years ago? Or for getting traded in his rookie year?

Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for his 5-19 shooting game in the Finals? Do you think that Jordan is going to be remembered for playing on five losing teams? Or that he basically quit in the Piston series in the late 80's? Or that he could barely get off the floor in his last two years? Or that he has been a horrible GM?

Kobe will go down in history as one of the greatest NBA players EVER. He will probably finish somewhere close to MJ, as well. Let's just get real here.[/QUOTE]

ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.[/QUOTE]

I understand this. There's just no way Kobe would have been in the Finals if he had a 2nd option on the level of a Jason terry or a Mo Williams.

Hell of a player though.

[QUOTE=thomaspynchon]Correct me if I am wrong, but did he not shoot extremely poorly against the Thunder? [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I attributed that to his swollen knee more than the Thunder defense though. Going into that series:

[QUOTE]In his final three games of the regular season, Bryant shot 5-of-23, 8-of-24 and 8-of-23, and multiple observers noted that he looked far less explosive than usual physically as a result of injuries to his knee and ankle.

The Portland loss seemed especially worrisome -- the playoffs were just six days away, and Bryant had sat out the previous two games to get better. Instead, it seemed as if he regressed, needing 23 shots to score 20 points and having so little elevation that Nicolas Batum blocked one of his deliveries flat-footed.[/QUOTE]

The 5/23 game was against the same Utah team he torched a couple weeks later.

and then

[QUOTE]The procedure did wonders for Bryant, who described the draining as having "the nasty stuff sucked out of my knee." Bryant averaged 24 points on 38.4 percent shooting in the first four games against the Thunder before having his knee drained and has been on a tear ever since, averaging 31.3 points on 51.5 percent shooting in his last 12 games.[/QUOTE]

He was visibly better after that.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.[/QUOTE]

I saw Kobe DOMINATING Duncan in several of those playoff series. Hell, his record as a Laker vs. Duncan's Spurs has been 18-8. So don't give me this crap about Duncan being a better player.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Um, what about in the 98 finals when Jordan went 13/29, 14/33, 12/27, 9/26, and 15/35. You going to discount his contribution to that championship? Winning is more than just putting up pretty numbers. Against great defensive teams your numbers just aren't going to look good. They just won't, no matter what. And if you want to win, you just have to deal with it and find a way to put points on the board.[/QUOTE]

you can't take things out of context. jordan was needed differently. he didn't have a low post presence to feed the ball to. pippen was also playing injured/awful agains the jazz in 98. he was jacking up 3s left and right in some games because he couldn't even run.

so if you are going to compare.....please use context.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Yeah, I attributed that to his swollen knee more than the Thunder defense though. Going into that series:



The 5/23 game was against the same Utah team he torched a couple weeks later.

and then



He was visibly better after that.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I wonder how many ounces he had drained. But then again, it's a nice luxury to have--other players would have been swept by that point.

[QUOTE=jlauber]I saw Kobe DOMINATING Duncan in several of those playoff series. Hell, his record as a Laker vs. Duncan's Spurs has been 18-8. So don't give me this crap about Duncan being a better player.[/QUOTE]

and i saw duncan dominating both shaq and kobe at times as well. duncan is simply better than kobe. he's more efficient, he's a much better teammate, he demands more attention offensively and opens up the court and gets his teammates better looks than kobe.....and duncan is literally ten times the defensive force that kobe is.

sorry dude. 4 titles with that level of talent around him. 11 straight years of 50 plus wins. duncan is the best player of this generation. sorry. really not worth debating. kobe scores 2.5 more points per game. thats its. and he does so on more shots and more possessions used.

again. 2.5 more points per game. duncan does just about everything else better and blows kobe out of the water in terms of defensive impact.

easily duncan.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]ok. spin it however you want. kobe was bad in game 7. a few boards (mainly because his center was out and he was guarding a player that put him in the paint defensively on every play) does not change anything. he was awful.....and if he didn't have a great team around him we would never have had a chance to win. thats a fact. if the lakers were not a great team with a great coach....that celtics 13 point lead would have turned into 20 plus and the game would have been over. plain and simple.

also.....you act like it was one series or one game. kobe was way too many blemishes on his playoff resume to be compared to MJ....its laughable. we all know the list. but sorry....you can't do what he did in 2004....and you can't let the likes of paul pierce and kg walk off the court in the finals as the 2 best players when you are in your prime and playing the biggest series of your career (at that point). LOL. imagine if drexler had outplayed jordan and won finals mvp and the title back in 92.....think we might see Jordan differently?

kobe will go down as one of the ten best ever. but both shaq and duncan were better players. so comparing him to MJ is out of the question.[/QUOTE]
Kobe has a great team blah blah blah. What was so great about Odom grabbing double digit rebounds in only one of the 7 finals games, or putting up double digit points twice in 7 games? What was so great about Fisher going 2 for 10 on 3 pointers in the 7 finals games? What was so great about Artest putting up 4 consecutive games of 6,2,9 and 7 points? What was so great about Andrew Bynum finishing the series with four consecutive statlines of 2pts/3rebs, 6pts/1reb, 2pts/4rebs, 2pts/6rebs?

People like to point out how great Kobe's teammates were, but really the only great teammate Kobe had in those Finals was Pau. The others came through for a game here and there, but on the whole played like garbage quite often. Kobe was the best player in those Finals whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, and saying his team won in spite of him is just flat out wrong - his "great teammates" spent the majority of those finals playing like crap.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]and i saw duncan dominating both shaq and kobe at times as well. duncan is simply better than kobe. he's more efficient, he's a much better teammate, he demands more attention offensively and opens up the court and gets his teammates better looks than kobe.....and duncan is literally ten times the defensive force that kobe is.

sorry dude. 4 titles with that level of talent around him. 11 straight years of 50 plus wins. duncan is the best player of this generation. sorry. really not worth debating. kobe scores 2.5 more points per game. thats its. and he does so on more shots and more possessions used.

again. 2.5 more points per game. duncan does just about everything else better and blows kobe out of the water in terms of defensive impact.

[B]easily duncan[/B].[/QUOTE]

Duncan was a great player, but he is no Kobe, and certainly no Shaq. Kobe over Duncan by an 18-8 margin.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Kobe has a great team blah blah blah. What was so great about Odom grabbing double digit rebounds in only one of the 7 finals games, or putting up double digit points twice in 7 games? What was so great about Fisher going 2 for 10 on 3 pointers in the 7 finals games? What was so great about Artest putting up 4 consecutive games of 6,2,9 and 7 points? What was so great about Andrew Bynum finishing the series with four consecutive statlines of 2pts/3rebs, 6pts/1reb, 2pts/4rebs, 2pts/6rebs?

People like to point out how great Kobe's teammates were, but really the only great teammate Kobe had in those Finals was Pau. The others came through for a game here and there, but on the whole played like garbage quite often. Kobe was the best player in those Finals whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, and saying his team won in spite of him is just flat out wrong - his "great teammates" spent the majority of those finals playing like crap.[/QUOTE]


gasol was the best player in that series in my opinion.

well lets see. gasol dominated game 1 on both ends. fisher one a road game in which kobe was awful by taking over down the stretch. again.....derek fisher won a game on the road in the nba finals.....if the lakers lose that game.....which they would have if kobe had kept shooting and playing terrible....the series was over. gasol was great down the stretch in game 7. and artest had a very good game 7 as well....and managed to hold pierce down all series.

now. what about kobe? you hate on his teammates. but what was kobe doing all series long? he was shooting a low percentage. he was shooting 25% in the 4th qtrs combined...LOL. he was turning the ball over in crucial spots. and he was shot jacking and not running the offense time and time again.

he was bad in the finals. gasol wasn't great...but he was better than kobe. and it was a team victory. kobe is "part" of that team. but he did not play well....and that is right in line with all of kobe's finals. he does not play well on the biggest stage.....thats a fact. deal with it.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Duncan was a great player, but he is no Kobe, and certainly no Shaq. Kobe over Duncan by an 18-8 margin.[/QUOTE]

what does 26 games have to do with entire careers? are you seriously trying to run with a 26 game sample size when each player has played over a thousand games?

my god you are an idiot. what do you mean...duncan is not kobe? of course not. duncan is much better. he's a more complete player that never let ego get in the way of winning. duncan has 4 titles playing with half the talent kobe has had. put duncan and a top 10 player of all time on the same team for 8 years and they win 8 titles. duncan was great from day 1 as well.

just because he isn't spectacular does not mean he isn't great. what do you think wade and duncan or lebron and duncan would have done over the last 7 years? neither one even comes close to shaq.....my guess is that the spurs win 5 titles minimum if duncan had wade/lebron. LOL

are you serious with this stuff.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]gasol was the best player in that series in my opinion.

well lets see. gasol dominated game 1 on both ends. fisher one a road game in which kobe was awful by taking over down the stretch. again.....derek fisher won a game on the road in the nba finals.....if the lakers lose that game.....which they would have if kobe had kept shooting and playing terrible....the series was over. gasol was great down the stretch in game 7. and artest had a very good game 7 as well....and managed to hold pierce down all series.

now. what about kobe? you hate on his teammates. but what was kobe doing all series long? he was shooting a low percentage. he was shooting 25% in the 4th qtrs combined...LOL. he was turning the ball over in crucial spots. and he was shot jacking and not running the offense time and time again.

he was bad in the finals. gasol wasn't great...but he was better than kobe. and it was a team victory. kobe is "part" of that team. but he did not play well....and that is right in line with all of kobe's finals. he does not play well on the biggest stage.....thats a fact. deal with it.[/QUOTE]
Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?

I'd put him top 5, surpassing Magic, Duncan, Shaq and all that other good stuff.

Still wouldn't be better than MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Bird.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?[/QUOTE]
Let's ignore the fact that Kobe took almost twice as many shots.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?[/QUOTE]

Well, you gotta factor in efficiency as well. But Pau didn't show up on the road at all, that's my biggest problem with him getting FMVP. And the one road game he did score well, he only grabbed 6 boards and played bad interior D.

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]Let's ignore the fact that Kobe took almost twice as many shots.[/QUOTE]
Kobe's TS% was 52.8% a 1.7% dropoff from his regular season TS% of 54.5%, Pau's was 55.6%, a 3.7% dropoff from his regular season TS% of 59.3%. Clearly Pau was being affected by the Boston defense just as much if not moreso than Kobe in this series, so I see no reason why the pattern of shots allotted should have deviated.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Well, you gotta factor in efficiency as well. But Pau didn't show up on the road at all, that's my biggest problem with him getting FMVP. And the one road game he did score well, he only grabbed 6 boards and played bad interior D.[/QUOTE]

He played well one game, game 3? I think? apart from that he struggled and played abit like he did in 08.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]Let's look at the stat lines shall we:

Game 1: Kobe - 30/7/6 Pau - 23/14/3
Game 2: Kobe - 21/5/6 Pau - 25/8/3
Game 3: Kobe - 29/7/4 Pau - 13/10/4
Game 4: Kobe - 33/6/2 Pau - 21/6/3
Game 5: Kobe - 38/5/4 Pau - 12/12/0
Game 6: Kobe - 26/11/3 Pau - 17/13/9
Game 7: Kobe - 23/15/2 Pau - 19/18/2

Now, how exactly are you going to argue Pau played better?[/QUOTE]

Interesting.

Gasol didn't show up on the road, period.

[b]Western Conf Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.6 ppg/7.0 rpg
Kobe: 36.6 ppg/8.3 rpg/6.7 apg

NBA Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.3 ppg/9.3 rpg
Kobe: 33.3 ppg/6.9 rpg/3.3 apg[/b]

[QUOTE=chazzy]Well, you gotta factor in efficiency as well. But Pau didn't show up on the road at all, that's my biggest problem with him getting FMVP. And the one road game he did score well, he only grabbed 6 boards and played bad interior D.[/QUOTE]
He was 2% more efficient, than Kobe; That's certainly not enough to argue for Pau as finals MVP in the face of such a large discrepancy in raw production.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]He was 2% more efficient, than Kobe; That's certainly not enough to argue for Pau as finals MVP in the face of such a large discrepancy in raw production.[/QUOTE]

hold on dude. way more to it than a simple point/rebound/assist stat line. how about gasol's length completely dominating the series. did you notice how rondo and pierce never finished at the rim? yea....that was gasol and bynum. gasol outplayed the celtics front line for the series. that is damn impressive. he was going against kg/davis/wallace/perkins.....and he was the best player and owned that matchup.

gasol was better in the 4th qtrs. he was better in game 7....and much better late in game 7.

and he did all of that on limited touches because kobe was shot jacking non stop all series. imagine what gasol would have done if the lakers had run the offense properly the entire series.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]He was 2% more efficient, than Kobe; That's certainly not enough to argue for Pau as finals MVP in the face of such a large discrepancy in raw production.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure you can credit Kobe too for how difficult it was for Boston to score? Had nothing to do with long-ass Gasol patrolling the paint right?

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]
[B]and he did all of that on limited touches because kobe was shot jacking non stop all series. imagine what gasol would have done if the lakers had run the offense properly the entire series.[/B][/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: The Lakers did run the offense properly. Gasol in the finals averaged 12.8 FGA/8.7 FTA per game. During the regular season Gasol averaged 13.0 FGA/5.6FTA per game. Gasol got his shots.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]hold on dude. way more to it than a simple point/rebound/assist stat line. how about gasol's length completely dominating the series. did you notice how rondo and pierce never finished at the rim? yea....that was gasol and bynum. gasol outplayed the celtics front line for the series. that is damn impressive. he was going against kg/davis/wallace/perkins.....and he was the best player and owned that matchup.

gasol was better in the 4th qtrs. he was better in game 7....and much better late in game 7.

and he did all of that on limited touches because kobe was shot jacking non stop all series. imagine what gasol would have done if the lakers had run the offense properly the entire series.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say he completely dominated the entire series, he had stretches of dominance, but he clearly got outplayed by KG, Big Baby, and KG again in 3 consecutive road games.

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]I'm sure you can credit Kobe too for how difficult it was for Boston to score? Had nothing to do with long-ass Gasol patrolling the paint right?[/QUOTE]
It had everything to do with Gasol. And it had everything to do with Kobe. The [I]team[/I] defense was spectacular.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]:rolleyes: The Lakers did run the offense properly. Gasol in the finals averaged 12.8 FGA/8.7 FTA per game. During the regular season Gasol averaged 13.0 FGA/5.6FTA per game. Gasol got his shots.[/QUOTE]

no

he should have had more touches. that does not mean shots always. the way the celtics played them....gasol should have been getting the ball more often. kobe was wasting 3 to 5 possessions with awful shots/decisions.

anyone that watched the game would tell you the ball movement was lacking all series for the lakers other than game 6. and that was mainly kobe's fault. he held the ball way too long on the wing and was not decisive.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]It had everything to do with Gasol. And it had everything to do with Kobe. The [I]team[/I] defense was spectacular.[/QUOTE]
LOL. Are you telling me Kobe's impact on defense is equal to Gasol's? Tell me you're not THIS much of a Kobe homer.

[QUOTE=barbaroi]It had everything to do with Gasol. And it had everything to do with Kobe. The [I]team[/I] defense was spectacular.[/QUOTE]

Bynum's length clogging the paint gave Boston all kind of problems. Stats aside Bynum was a real factor.

[QUOTE=All Net]Bynum's length clogging the paint gave Boston all kind of problems. Stats aside Bynum was a real factor.[/QUOTE]

totally agree. when bynum played he had a great impact.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]what does 26 games have to do with entire careers? are you seriously trying to run with a 26 game sample size when each player has played over a thousand games?

my god you are an idiot. what do you mean...duncan is not kobe? of course not. duncan is much better. he's a more complete player that never let ego get in the way of winning. duncan has 4 titles playing with half the talent kobe has had. put duncan and a top 10 player of all time on the same team for 8 years and they win 8 titles. duncan was great from day 1 as well.

just because he isn't spectacular does not mean he isn't great. what do you think wade and duncan or lebron and duncan would have done over the last 7 years? neither one even comes close to shaq.....my guess is that the spurs win 5 titles minimum if duncan had wade/lebron. LOL

are you serious with this stuff.[/QUOTE]

We have debated this topic before, and I am not going to dig up EVERY argument in Kobe's favor. Kobe DOMINATED those Spurs-Lakers series...

but having said that, though...

you discount Kobe's dominance over Duncan in those 26 games...yet you point out several of Kobe's "failures" in his post-season career. The FACT is, Kobe has been one of the top-3 SCORERS in post-season HISTORY. AND, his SCORING goes WAY beyond those that argue his FG%. When he is basically the ONLY player that CAN score, as was the case in this past Celtic championship series, of course his FG% is going to be lower.

BTW, do you want me to look up ALL of the MANY post-season flops in Duncan's career? Hell, he had a miserable 10-27 game seven himself, and he had post-season series so bad, his team couldn't advance. So, PLEASE, no more of these ISOLATED shots at Kobe's career. By the time Kobe hangs it up, Duncan won't be in the conversation at all.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]no

he should have had more touches. that does not mean shots always. the way the celtics played them....gasol should have been getting the ball more often. kobe was wasting 3 to 5 possessions with awful shots/decisions.

anyone that watched the game would tell you the ball movement was lacking all series for the lakers other than game 6. and that was mainly kobe's fault. he held the ball way too long on the wing and was not decisive.[/QUOTE]
What, you think I didn't watch the games? The ball movement was difficult [I]because Boston is a damn good defensive team.[/I] They weren't just standing there allowing the Lakers to make clean passes. There is a reason why Wade averaged 5.2 TO per game against Boston and Lebron averaged 4.5 TO per game.

[QUOTE=Bring-Your-Js]Interesting.

Gasol didn't show up on the road, period.

[b]Western Conf Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.6 ppg/7.0 rpg
Kobe: 36.6 ppg/8.3 rpg/6.7 apg

NBA Finals (Away):

Gasol: 15.3 ppg/9.3 rpg
Kobe: 33.3 ppg/6.9 rpg/3.3 apg[/b][/QUOTE]


[B][SIZE="6"]This, End thread.
Ginobli got owned once again.[/SIZE][/B]

Top 5, and higher once he retires. He is already greater than Magic at this point imo.

[QUOTE=jlauber]We have debated this topic before, and I am not going to dig up EVERY argument in Kobe's favor. Kobe DOMINATED those Spurs-Lakers series...

but having said that, though...

you discount Kobe's dominance over Duncan in those 26 games...yet you point out several of Kobe's "failures" in his post-season career. The FACT is, Kobe has been one of the top-3 SCORERS in post-season HISTORY. AND, his SCORING goes WAY beyond those that argue his FG%. When he is basically the ONLY player that CAN score, as was the case in this past Celtic championship series, of course his FG% is going to be lower.

BTW, do you want me to look up ALL of the MANY post-season flops in Duncan's career? Hell, he had a miserable 10-27 game seven himself, and he had post-season series so bad, his team couldn't advance. So, PLEASE, no more of these ISOLATED shots at Kobe's career. By the time Kobe hangs it up, Duncan won't be in the conversation at all.[/QUOTE]


ok dude. the difference is that when duncan goes 10-27 he is also providing the best defense in the league. there is just a big gap in terms of impact in the game. and again......kobe has played with a ton more talent than duncan has.

so comparing team success is a joke. but go ahead. think what you want. i really don't care debating with someone that wants to use 26 games as an indication of a players' worth when they have both played well over 1 thousand games.

[QUOTE=New York Knicks]LOL. Are you telling me Kobe's impact on defense is equal to Gasol's? Tell me you're not THIS much of a Kobe homer.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm Where was Gasol's supposed all encompassing defense when Big Baby and KG were taking a shit all over the post defense in games 3-5? Gasol was very good on defending penetration in certain games, but let's not act like Gasol turned into Tim Duncan. I'm not going to single out any single defender in that Finals series because that's not how the games were played. They had to have good defense on all fronts, and that's what they got when they won: great defensive contributions from every player on the floor in a TEAM defensive scheme.

[QUOTE=ginobli2311]ok dude. the difference is that when duncan goes 10-27 he is also providing the best defense in the league. there is just a big gap in terms of impact in the game. and again......kobe has played with a ton more talent than duncan has.

so comparing team success is a joke. but go ahead. think what you want. i really don't care debating with someone that wants to use 26 games as an indication of a players' worth when they have both played well over 1 thousand games.[/QUOTE]

And of course, Kobe being all OVER the floor defensively in HIS game seven is discounted. How about rebounds in those game seven's BTW? Kobe had 15 CLUTCH rebounds, how about Duncan? 11.

So, once again, don't throw ISOLATED instances out there. Kobe has been a BRILLIANT playoff performer...and if ANYONE would know that it, it would be Duncan, Bowen, and the Spurs franchise.

Kobes legacy will be just the same as if he beat the Pacers in the finals... which means another championship.... somewhat increased legacy ofcourse, its as simple as that, this is a team accomplishment, a championship.

The only way Kobes legacy will be increased individualy is if he outperforms Lebron & Wade in the Finals.... which i highly doubt he will, at least not outperform Lebron, Lebron has outperformed Kobe more than vice versa playing against him... if they meet in the playoffs, Lebron will go on a berserker mode, he wont let that chanse slip away, he is much more hungrier than Kobe ever was for a championship and as you can see Lebron is willing to give up anything for that, his money, his home, his "the man" status and his fans... he wants to dismantle Kobe right here and right now... that is the last step he has to take before he officialy is undebatably the best player in the world right now if he dismantles the Lakers in the Finals.