Peak Alonzo Mourning or Peak Dwight Howard

[QUOTE=LAClipsFan33]Yes. I hate Dwight Howard because he's the strongest most athletic big man in the league, but has no heart and refuses to work on his game whatsoever. How can you even like a guy like that ? Waste of talent. His talent should have went to a guy like Dejuan Blair, Luis Scola, or Carl Landry...these guys do a lot with less and Howard is halfass on reaching his potential.[/QUOTE]

You're an idiot.

Dude is an all-star, 2x DPOY, leads in FG%, blocked shots, rebounds, and double-doubles, yet he never works on his game? Are you serious?

Stop listening to TV and only looking at points.

[QUOTE=2LeTTeRS]So the only thing there is to the game is scoring? Dwight struggled to score, but he dominated the glass and kept the Magic in the series with his defense.
You can't say Howard didn't come to play in that series.[/QUOTE]

He had one big defensive game. Overall they put the series on his shoulders be running the offense through him and he failed to do anything. He was supposed to be this domiant force who was unstoppable in the paint and Gasol got a good base, put his arms up, and kept him from doing anything besides bricking off that sh*tty sweeping hook.

[QUOTE=zORi]First off, he was near Gasol in every single game, second, he out did him in every single other category, third, wasn't Bynum the one guarding him? Why not compare Bynum to Howard?

Gasol lit up Rashard Lewis. Whoooopdee doo! That's incredible! No other 7-ft Power Forward has done that before! Oh wait....

Pau did better in points, and that's it. Man, stop it, you're about as see through as your silly-ass arguments.[/QUOTE]

The Lakers rotation has Bynum playing him for a couple minutes then Gasol sliding over to Center when Bynum goes out to let Odom play PF. For the majority of the game Gasol is at C and Odom is at PF.

[QUOTE=zORi]You're an idiot.

Dude is an all-star, 2x DPOY, leads in FG%, blocked shots, rebounds, and double-doubles, yet he never works on his game? Are you serious?

Stop listening to TV and only looking at points.[/QUOTE]

I watch him play. He's been the exact same player for 3 years straight.

He hasn't took the time to become any type of passer out of the post, work on his proneness to TOs, or any type of 2nd move in the post on offense. Matter of fact he went on record saying that his post game is good...even though we all know its awful. He's the best Center in the league by default because he's by far the best athlete. With work and determination he could be twice the player he is now, but with his attitude I doubt he ever will.

Come on, you know damn well as a Clippers fan you'd throw a party if the Clippers got a player near Dwight's caliber.

[QUOTE=LAClipsFan33]He had one big defensive game. Overall they put the series on his shoulders be running the offense through him and he failed to do anything. He was supposed to be this domiant force who was unstoppable in the paint and Gasol got a good base, put his arms up, and kept him from doing anything besides bricking off that sh*tty sweeping hook.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you should be looking at Gasol.

Those weren't incredibly dominant numbers considering he spent a lot of time being guarded by Lewis. And what's with the low rebounds?

Stop being an idiot.

One thing that should be kept in mind is that Howards rebounding improved greatly once Rashard was signed. Rashard is a very weak rebounder at the 4 which allows Howard to get more rebounds.

Zo was a better shotblocker. Howard got 2.9 blocks in his best year. Zo had 6 seasons getting that or better.

Howards offensive skills are lame. If he can't get to the rim he is pretty worthless. Zo wins by default here.

I would take Zo.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Come on, you know damn well as a Clippers fan you'd throw a party if the Clippers got a player near Dwight's caliber.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

So LACF, you'd rather have Kaman than Howard?

[QUOTE=tontoz]One thing that should be kept in mind is that Howards rebounding improved greatly once Rashard was signed. Rashard is a very weak rebounder at the 4 which allows Howard to get more rebounds.

Zo was a better shotblocker. Howard got 2.9 blocks in his best year. Zo had 6 seasons getting that or better.

Howards offensive skills are lame. If he can't get to the rim he is pretty worthless. Zo wins by default here.

I would take Zo.[/QUOTE]


Is there really anything else left to be said? End this thread already, Dwight wouldnt even be a top 5 center in the 90's, this has been discussed before.

[QUOTE=tontoz]One thing that should be kept in mind is that Howards rebounding improved greatly once Rashard was signed. Rashard is a very weak rebounder at the 4 which allows Howard to get more rebounds.

Zo was a better shotblocker. Howard got 2.9 blocks in his best year. Zo had 6 seasons getting that or better.

Howards offensive skills are lame. If he can't get to the rim he is pretty worthless. Zo wins by default here.

I would take Zo.[/QUOTE]

There are a ton of centers who didn't score well unless they were near the rim. His offense isn't flashy or inredible, but it isn't lame. He did have 2 20 ppg seasons on very efficient percentages.

Zo was a better shot blocker than Dwight is at the moment, but Dwight is only 24. At least 3 or 4 years from his prime.

As far as rebounding, that works in two ways. Often times, Dwight is the only Magic player down there jumping for a rebound against 2 or 3 of the opposing teams players. This is Magic's fans biggest complaint, is that Dwight has to go up against 2 or 3 players constantly.

[QUOTE=zORi]Exactly.

So LACF, you'd rather have Kaman than Howard?[/QUOTE]

I'd rather have Howard because Kaman has the same issues with heart and Howard is a better player.

But we are talking about Zo here...who was way better than Howard.

It's Dwight but it's close

[QUOTE=Dwade305]Is there really anything else left to be said? End this thread already, Dwight wouldnt even be a top 5 center in the 90's, this has been discussed before.[/QUOTE]
Stop being a homer and if you don't like it don't post here. Simple.

Also, Mourning was barely (if at all) top 5 C in that time.

Olajuwon
Robinson
Shaq
Ewing
Dikembe
Mourning

[QUOTE=zORi]Stop being a homer and if you don't like it don't post here. Simple.

Also, Mourning was barely (if at all) top 5 C in that time.

Olajuwon
Robinson
Shaq
Ewing
Dikembe
Mourning[/QUOTE]

And all those guys are better than Dwight

[QUOTE=zORi]Stop being a homer and if you don't like it don't post here. Simple.

Also, Mourning was barely (if at all) top 5 C in that time.

Olajuwon
Robinson
Shaq
Ewing
Dikembe
Mourning[/QUOTE]


Dikembe wasn't better than Mourning and Ewing wasn't much better.

[QUOTE=zORi]Stop being a homer and if you don't like it don't post here. Simple.

Also, Mourning was barely (if at all) top 5 C in that time.

Olajuwon
Robinson
Shaq
Ewing
Dikembe
Mourning[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

U know what though it is a toss up between 3-6, cant even front. But speaks volume of how sorry the league is in the C position, no matter how many accolades Dwight gets, he will never be better than a prime Zo in my book,

[QUOTE=zORi]Stop being a homer and if you don't like it don't post here. Simple.

Also, Mourning was barely (if at all) top 5 C in that time.

Olajuwon
Robinson
Shaq
Ewing
Dikembe
Mourning[/QUOTE]
Deke was not better than Zo.

[QUOTE=LAClipsFan33]And all those guys are better than Dwight[/QUOTE]
All of them have had a full career resume to look upon.

Dwight's only 24, as I've said before, he's got a good 10 years more to go.

[QUOTE=Dwade305]:oldlol:

U know what though it is a toss up between 3-6, cant even front. But speaks volume of how sorry the league is in the C position, no matter how many accolades Dwight gets, he will never be better than a prime Zo in my book,[/QUOTE]

that post= super-homerism. You don't have to post anymore, we know what you're going to say.

BTW, For those who have been posting, I accidentally put Mourning under Deke.

[QUOTE=zORi]There are a ton of centers who didn't score well unless they were near the rim. His offense isn't flashy or inredible, but it isn't lame. He did have 2 20 ppg seasons on very efficient percentages.

[/QUOTE]


Howard can't score outside 5 feet. that is why his playoff performances have been so lame. Against this eras weak crop of centers it is pretty easy for him to get to the rim, either on drives or follow ups.

[QUOTE]
As far as rebounding, that works in two ways. Often times, Dwight is the only Magic player down there jumping for a rebound against 2 or 3 of the opposing teams players. This is Magic's fans biggest complaint, is that Dwight has to go up against 2 or 3 players constantly[/QUOTE]

It is a lot easier to get rebounds next to Rashard than it would be next to Boozer. Each rebound Boozer gets is one less rebound Howard could have gotten.

Why do you think Howards rebounding shot up as soon as Lewis signed?

[QUOTE=LAClipsFan33]And all those guys are better than Dwight[/QUOTE]

:oldlol: at Mutombo being a better player than Dwight.

[QUOTE=tontoz]Howard can't score outside 5 feet. that is why his playoff performances have been so lame. Against this eras weak crop of centers it is pretty easy for him to get to the rim, either on drives or follow ups.



It is a lot easier to get rebounds next to Rashard than it would be next to Boozer. Each rebound Boozer gets is one less rebound Howard could have gotten.

Why do you think Howards rebounding shot up as soon as Lewis signed?[/QUOTE]

Because he signed in '07. That was when Dwight started to become what he is today.

Also, they didn't shoot up. They went from 12.3, to 14.2. That's 1.9 more.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]:oldlol: at Mutombo being a better player than Dwight.[/QUOTE]

U forgot how the first guy initially put Deke over Zo and how laughable that is. Ow and then saying it was a mistake after everyone started correcting his dumbass
:roll:

[QUOTE=Dwade305]U forgot how the first guy initially put Deke over Zo and how laughable that is. Ow and then saying it was a mistake after everyone started correcting his dumbass
:roll:[/QUOTE]

It was a mistake whether you want to believe that or not.

Also, this coming from a guy who was proud of Zo beating out a 20-year old Dwight Howard? LOLOL, EDIT: Pathetic.

[QUOTE=zORi]It was a mistake whether you want to believe that or not.

Also, this coming from a guy who was proud of Zo beating out a 20-year old Dwight Howard? LOLOL, sad.[/QUOTE]


Really? What has really changed drastically( besides Muscle mass) in Dwights game since he was 20? What would lead you to believe it would have been a different story if Dwight was 25 and had the same post moves?

[QUOTE=zORi]Because he signed in '07. That was when Dwight started to become what he is today.

Also, they didn't shoot up. They went from 12.3, to 14.2. That's 1.9 more.[/QUOTE]


A 15% increase in one year is a big jump.

Funny how you talk about 07 as when Dwight stepped up. Did it ever occur to you that a less crowded lane might benefit his numbers? With Lewis camped at the 3 pt line his defender will have to respect his shot. that is one less guy who can quickly double Howard.

[QUOTE=Dwade305]Really? What has really changed drastically( besides Muscle mass) in Dwights game since he was 20? What would lead you to believe it would have been a different story if Dwight was 25 and had the same post moves?[/QUOTE]

Not to mention, Dwight was a [B]#1[/B] pick for a reason, not exactly some late first rounder who's blossomed into a star, and Mourning was what a few years away from being 40 years old. It's not an end-all be-all game, but still impressive on Mournings part.

olajuwon, robinson, o'neal and mourning are a lot better than howard.
then, olajuwon, robinson, mourning and mutombo are better defensive players than howard. not even to mention others great defenders of the 90's who were not centers...
that shows the value of his 2 DPOY...the league sucks.

Dwight is more physically blessed

but Alonzo was better, no matter what the stats say.

Mourning was a terror on the defensive end, a true warrior. I can't say the same thing about Dwight Howard. I think Howard would have got rocked in a different era, when the center position was far better throughout the league (Shaq, Hakeem, D-Rob, Smits, Ewing, Mutumbo, Divac etc. ..and can't forget Big Country Reeves!:rockon:

[QUOTE=tontoz]A 15% increase in one year is a big jump.

Funny how you talk about 07 as when Dwight stepped up. Did it ever occur to you that a less crowded lane might benefit his numbers? With Lewis camped at the 3 pt line his defender will have to respect his shot. that is one less guy who can quickly double Howard.[/QUOTE]

Of course that helped, but he was bound to be better than the year before, that much is obvious. Just for the sheer experience, if nothing else.

How about from his rookie to sophomore year when he went from 10-12.5? 1.9 more rebounds isn't all that drastic as you made it out to be.

[QUOTE=Dwade305]Really? What has really changed drastically( besides Muscle mass) in Dwights game since he was 20? What would lead you to believe it would have been a different story if Dwight was 25 and had the same post moves?[/QUOTE]

Please tell me you're joking.

Second, Dwight isn't even 25 now, so we wouldn't know.

I'd take a peak Zo.

[QUOTE=zORi]Please tell me you're joking.

Second, Dwight isn't even 25 now, so we wouldn't know.[/QUOTE]


Explain his improvement/s or at least try. I dont care/know how old Dwight is now, im just giving an example, since your bringing age as a determining factor why Dwight was treated like shyt that game.

[QUOTE=SCdac]I'd take the guy who was naturally a better offensive player, meaning he was more comfortable/expected to take closer to 15 or more shots a game, versus maybe 10-12 shots a game which I feel Howard is more prone to with Orlando still being a competitor. Shot blocking I feel is close to a wash, but I can't see Mourning in his peak being reduced to having a 1-6 FG game in the Finals against Pau and Bynum, even though I don't consider him an elite offensive player (he had his fair share of low scoring games too). Mourning had a usage-% of nearly 30% in that playoff run, and generally had a higher % (than Howard's playoff runs) in every post season prior to that. Mourning was also sharing boards with a solid big man in PJ Brown who averaged roughly 10 boards in the RS, and 8 boards in the post season. On Howard's team, there's really nobody even close to approaching those averages on rebounds, his starting PF averages about 5-7 three point attempts per game, and hangs around on the perimeter. I hate talking raw numbers though, it turns into more of a fantasy-debate (arguing over over miniscule differences in stats). Mourning I feel was just the better, smarter, more aggressive and tougher player, even if his team-results weren't wowing. Still though, he won a championship averaging over a block a game in about 10 minutes per at a pretty old age (which is irrelevant in this thread, but still an achievement).[/QUOTE]
Game, set, and match.

[QUOTE=Dwade305]Explain his improvement/s or at least try. I dont care/know how old Dwight is now, im just giving an example, since your bringing age as a determining factor why Dwight was treated like shyt that game.[/QUOTE]

First of all, like you said, mass was a determining factor .

He also didn't have his hook shot down consistently, nor was he cutting off passing lanes as effectively. He wasn't as smart of a player as he is now, in general, while Zo was the exact opposite.

EDIT: For the record here, I would actually take a Prime Zo as well. But to say that Dwight is no where near Zo (and never will be) and calling his offense "Pathetic" and all that is ridiculous. That's why I'm standing up for him, but yeah, prime Zo was actually a better player than Dwight has been [I]so far[/I].

[QUOTE=ronnymac]Alonzo would break you're nose if you went up against him while Dwight will probaly just smile at you. Zo was a tough SOB who took no nonsense from anyone.Plus Zo atleast had a pretty realiable jumper on him along with some good low post scoring ability with a few moves and had a nice hook shot.[/QUOTE]

Tell all the people who have been battered by Dwight that he just flashes a smile in the paint.

And reliable jumper or not, they're PPG averages are almost identical and Howard adds several more blocks.

Mourning was more skilled for sure, but Dwight attracts more attention, I'd take Dwight, but he needs to improve without question.

[QUOTE=Bladers]All you fools need to take your [B]sunglasses off[/B] and look closely at their stats!!!

:wtf:[/QUOTE]
YEAH! Lets judge everyone by stats.

I'll take Spencer Haywood in my top 5.

[QUOTE=Bladers]All you fools need to take your [B]sunglasses off[/B] and look closely at their stats!!!

:wtf:[/QUOTE]
All fools like you need to stop caring about stats. Oh wait, that's all you got to go on because you are too young to have watched Zo.

[QUOTE=zORi]Of course that helped, but he was bound to be better than the year before, that much is obvious. Just for the sheer experience, if nothing else.

How about from his rookie to sophomore year when he went from 10-12.5? 1.9 more rebounds isn't all that drastic as you made it out to be.[/QUOTE]


As a rookie Howard was still skinny and not playing as many minutes.

In his third year he averaged 12.3 rebounds per game. Why no improvement from his second year?

[QUOTE=andgar923][B][COLOR="Red"]Zo is better, end of story[/COLOR][/B].

[B]Only reason Howard's numbers are the way they are, is because he goes up against nobodies and today's big men are all to busy trying to be small forwards instead of playing the post.[/B]

[COLOR="Blue"]Most of Howard's game consists of he using his size and athleticism.[/COLOR] And there isn't that many big men today anyway.

Like somebody mentioned, Zo was a leader and he'd rip your throat out if he had too. Meanwhile Howard would just smile.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=LAClipsFan33][B]Howard's mental toughness is questionable.[/B] I think if he went head to head with Mourning he'd get intimidated. When Zo knew he was in your head he'd rip your heart out and eat it in front of you. [COLOR="Red"]I don't think Dwight would ever want this matchup.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Retired ZO is still emotional. :lol (in 2009)
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Alonzo%20Mourning/VS/d052874a.gif[/img]


[QUOTE=zORi]Stop being a homer and if you don't like it don't post here. Simple.

Also, Mourning was barely (if at all) top 5 C in that time.

Olajuwon
Robinson
Shaq
Ewing
Dikembe
Mourning[/QUOTE]

Dikembe's defense was great but not the same level as rest of all.
(I think you might not watch 90's C Players game.)

[QUOTE=MasterDurant24]Deke was not better than Zo.[/QUOTE]
+1

[QUOTE=joyner82]Dikembe wasn't better than Mourning and Ewing wasn't much better.[/QUOTE]
+1

- ZO's opponent were Olajuwon, Ewing, D-Rob, SHAQ
and nice C Players like Mutombo, Rik Smits , Vlade Divac, Kevin Willis(C/F tho) etc. etc.

dh12 's opponent ? season-outed Yao and ?
(The weakest C Players era.)



- ZO 's front court partner were Larry Johnson(Hornets) and P.J. Brown(heat).

But ZO's stat was still great.

DH12 has no front court partner.(Actually Rashard Lewis is not PF.)



And ZO had never been struggled against poor opponent not like dh12.

[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Funny%20NBA%20Record/Dwight%20Howard/--2.jpg[/img]

This is not just once.

Because dh12 has been stopped by (only 2009-10 season)

1) Really OLD SHAQ
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20NBA%20etc/Shaquille%20Oneal/5%20Cleveland%20Cavaliers/NBA09-10OrlandoMagicvsClevelandCava.jpg[/img]

2) non prime time Jermaine O'neal

3) OLD Ben Wallace

4) (partly) Samuel Dalembert

5) Kendrick Perkins

6) Andrew Bynum

7) Roy Hibbert

8) Charlotte Bobcats C Players

and if there were Yao, Yao could stop dh12.


Furthermore ZO didn't need to elbow not like dh12.

[COLOR="Blue"]I always think dh12 is one of dominant current player but he is not all time greatest level.[/COLOR]



This is ZO in his rookie season. dh12 couldn't play like this at the same age.
[img]http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Alonzo%20Mourning/rookiealonzomourninghitsthebuzzerbe.gif[/img]




As NBA history, all the greatest C Players have been born to be the greatest C Players not imporoved.