Scottie Pippen appreciation thread.

[QUOTE=magnax1]I don't think Lebron is that terribly similar. He impacts the game in somewhat similar ways, but other then this year so far he's been anywhere from a far below average to above average defender, compared to Pippen's all NBA defense almost every year of his career. [/QUOTE]

Well, #1 Pippen was only all-NBA defense in about 60% of his career. I'm not sure I can give any creedence to an opinion based on an eight game sample size either. James was all-NBA first team last year for the second time. Pippen was a year older before he got his first all-NBA 1st team defensive selection.


[QUOTE=magnax1]Also, his game is mostly built around athetlicism, where Pippen might not have been a super skilled scorer, he was extremely fundamentally sound, and much more cerebral. I also don't think Lebron is a better passer really.[/QUOTE]

Pippen's game was primarily about athleticism. That's what allowed him to become a great defender much more than fundamentals. But that's an opinion so I'll leave it at that.

I think LeBron is a much better passer and so do the stats. Pippen's career high is LeBron's career average. Also there turnovers per minute are almost identical.

I don't think they are the same type of player, but to say there hasn't been another Scottie Pippen is like saying there hasn't been another Shawn Kemp, it's true, but there have been better.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]You can't compare Pippen to anyone of the above. Kareem was definetely not a sidekick in 1970 and 1980 (as you yourself wrote.) Same for magic in 1987 and 1988. Jerry West was the best player on the Lakers from about 1965 on and him and Wilt were 1A/1B when they won. Kobe was 1B in 2001 and 2002 and won 2 championships as the man. John Havlicek was probably Celtics' most important player in 1968, 1969, and 1974 - definetely not a "sidekick."

By contrast, Pippen had only one good season as someone who was not a sidekick - 1993-1994. I actually think Pippen was a great sidekick and I didn't really mean it in a deragotory way. I think Pippen IS a top 50 GOAT - i just don't think he is top 25.[/QUOTE]

I have him right on the edge of the top 25. I wasn't comparing those players careers, only the portions of them spent as sidekicks.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]What about LBJ

He's a better scorer, rebounder and passer than Pippen and he became an elite defender at a younger age?

Kobe has never come close to MJ;s MVP's or scoring titles. He's a poor mans Jordan in that sense.

I'd say Kobe is more comparable to Pippen, have been the sidekick and top perimeter defender for a three-peat Champion, than Michael who won five MVP's to Kobe's one and Six titles as the #1 option to Kobe's two.[/QUOTE]

You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.

[QUOTE]Well, #1 Pippen was only all-NBA defense in about 60% of his career. I'm not sure I can give any creedence to an opinion based on an eight game sample size either. James was all-NBA first team last year for the second time. Pippen was a year older before he got his first all-NBA 1st team defensive selection. [/QUOTE]
I think the majority of people agree that Lebron's last two defensive selections were unwarranted. I wasn't really trying to use Lebron's play on the heat as an argument, I was just saying he's played great on defense so far.



[QUOTE]Pippen's game was primarily about athleticism. That's what allowed him to become a great defender much more than fundamentals. But that's an opinion so I'll leave it at that.

I think LeBron is a much better passer and so do the stats. Pippen's career high is LeBron's career average. Also there turnovers per minute are almost identical.

I don't think they are the same type of player, but to say there hasn't been another Scottie Pippen is like saying there hasn't been another Shawn Kemp, it's true, but there have been better.[/QUOTE]
Stats don't say much about passing, especially from away from the point guard position. I agree with your last point though. Pippen was unique, but wasn't as special as many make him out to be from a level of play perspective.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.[/QUOTE]

Look at the context of my post in relation to what I was responding to. I don't think we disagree much if at all here.

Except the part where you say Kobe was more valuable/important than Shaq at any time between 2000-2002. That's just silly. He may have posted better numbers for whatever reasons (doubt he did though) but that was Shaq's team and all the role players fit Shaq's game better than Kobe's. He was easily the most important player as Phil Jackson makes very clear in the books about those years.

[QUOTE=magnax1]I think the majority of people agree that Lebron's last two defensive selections were unwarranted. I wasn't really trying to use Lebron's play on the heat as an argument, I was just saying he's played great on defense so far.

Stats don't say much about passing, especially from away from the point guard position. I agree with your last point though. Pippen was unique, but wasn't as special as many make him out to be from a level of play perspective.[/QUOTE]

We don't need to argue here, but I disagree with your assertion of LeBron not deserving his all-defensive selections. He finished second in the DPOTY in 2009, that's pretty major and he always stands out as a threat to block any shot or steal any pass he;s close to.

As for stats and passing, while I agree in principal. When two players who play the same position and one averages more points, more assists and the same number of turnovers, I'm going to feel safe in saying he is better with the ball and a better passer in most cases.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]
[B]Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. [/B]Get real. It's not MJ's fault that he played 85% of his career with Pippen. Jordan only had his ROOKIE year and then 1987 to "prove" himself before Pippen was on the team. In '85 he was a rookie yet still led the Bulls to a substantial improvement and had one of the best rookie seasons in history. In '87 he had possibly the worst supporting cast in history (especially relative to the league) yet still won 40 games -- and he had to average 40+ ppg/53% FG in the Chicago wins to do it. That team was garbage outside of MJ.

So when was Jordan supposed to have a winning record exactly? As I've already noted, he won 50 games with a rookie Pippen, which, to any sane person (note: this excludes you), proves that he could have at least had a winning record with a decent team around him. Even in '88 his team was no great shakes, yet he won 50 games. [B] But yeah, I'm sure it was 7 pt/4 reb foul-prone Pippen who was the reason for those wins![/B] :oldlol:



It doesn't make any [B]sane[/B] person wonder about those things, I'll tell you that much.[/QUOTE]


Yippee. Jordan won 50 games and put up insane numbers. These days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Ask Lebron :oldlol: He put up 60+ win seasons and had pretty numbers and he's now looked at as a joke. Of course if he had a caliber player of Pippen by his side it would probably be a different story. The Jordan's, the Kobe's, the Lebron's are all alike. People tout them as this and that but at the end of the day they weren't winning jack sh** without their "sidekicks".

And it's funny how "rookie 7 point/4 reb foul prone" Pippen is put in the starting lineup in a do-or-die Game 5 and responds with a damn fine all-around game to get MJ his first ever playoff series win.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M79eJyW_T0M[/url]

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Yippee. Jordan won 50 games and put up insane numbers. These days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Ask Lebron :oldlol: He put up 60+ win seasons and had pretty numbers and he's now looked at as a joke. Of course if he had a caliber player of Pippen by his side it would probably be a different story. The Jordan's, the Kobe's, the Lebron's are all alike. People tout them as this and that but at the end of the day they weren't winning jack sh** without their "sidekicks".
[/QUOTE]

Amazing how people can be so deluded. :oldlol: Again, I'm SURE that a 7 pt/4 reb 20 mpg rookie was the reason for Chicago winning 50 games that year. NOT the fact that Jordan had one of the 10 best individual seasons of all-time. It was PIPPEN. Get outta here with that noise... :oldlol:

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]And it's funny how "rookie 7 point/4 reb foul prone" Pippen is put in the starting lineup in a do-or-die Game 5 and [B]responds with a damn fine all-around game to get MJ his first ever playoff series win[/B]. [/QUOTE]

His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?

[QUOTE]
We don't need to argue here, but I disagree with your assertion of LeBron not deserving his all-defensive selections. He finished second in the DPOTY in 2009, that's pretty major and he always stands out as a threat to block any shot or steal any pass he;s close to.

As for stats and passing, while I agree in principal. When two players who play the same position and one averages more points, more assists and the same number of turnovers, I'm going to feel safe in saying he is better with the ball and a better passer in most cases.[/QUOTE]
He still only averaged something like 1 block and 1.5 steal. If Lebron was second in DPOTY, then Wade should've been first every year since 2006. Lebron played highlight defense. He impacted four or five plays in a big way, and then went back to being a bit below average one on one defender, and nothing special on every other part of defense.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Look at the context of my post in relation to what I was responding to. I don't think we disagree much if at all here.

Except the part where you say Kobe was more valuable/important than Shaq at any time between 2000-2002. That's just silly. He may have posted better numbers for whatever reasons (doubt he did though) but that was Shaq's team and all the role players fit Shaq's game better than Kobe's. He was easily the most important player as Phil Jackson makes very clear in the books about those years.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think we mostly agree. I think borderline 25 is too high for Pippen but I can see how you got there. I personally don't think you can really rank top GOAT as 1through 50. The way i look at it as that Jordan #1 and then you have "tiers"

First tier (# 2 through # 9) is KAJ, Bird, Russel, Wilt, Magic, Duncan, Kobe, and Shaq. Second tier (#s 10 through 14) is West, Robetson, Havlicek, Olajuwan, and M. Malone. I am too lazy to split the following players by more tiers right now but i think the following players (#15 through 27) are all better than Pippen when one is talking GOAT. (Erving, Pettit, Malone, Barkley, Cousy, Garnett , Isiah, Stockton, Barry, Elvin Hayes, Willis Reed, George Mikan.) For me, Pippen belongs in the very next tier, which includes players such D. Robinson, Dominique Wilkins, maybe Wade, Lebron, and couple of others.)

[QUOTE=kizut1659]You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc. [/quote]

Who cares how much Pierce and Vince scored? What results did it get them? Pierce had MAD playoff droughts in the lowly Eastern Conference. He was scoring a lot of points on bad teams. Big F'n deal. Same goes for Vince Carter.

[quote]Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) [/quote]

There's no such thing as "most important player" when it comes to the stars on a team. You know why? Because neither player is winning a damn thing without the other :oldlol: Let me put it as plain as I can for you. Ultimately, Jordan without Pippen is losing. Kobe without Shaq/Gasol is losing. Lebron without....well, he hasn't had anything worthy of those two players above to even mention but you get the idea.

[quote]It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.[/quote]

Of course it can't be compared. In 2008-2010 Kobe got to be with another significant talent (Pau Gasol) by his side. Where was Kobe before that? What was he doing before Gasol? Oh yeah, he was doing what Michael Jordan was doing before Pippen. He was doing what Lebron James was doing the last two seasons. He was putting up numbers and losing. 2005, no playoffs. 2006, first round exit. 2007, first round exit. Kobe failed over and over and over and went through all of his growing pains and quitting and throwing tantrums and demanding trades and all that. Gasol comes to the Lakers for magic beans and all is right with the world. If Gasol never comes to LA Kobe is in the same boat Lebron James is in now...criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Amazing how people can be so deluded. :oldlol: Again, I'm SURE that a 7 pt/4 reb 20 mpg rookie was the reason for Chicago winning 50 games that year. NOT the fact that Jordan had one of the 10 best individual seasons of all-time. It was PIPPEN. Get outta here with that noise... :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?[/QUOTE]

Pippen put up 24/6/5 as a rookie in his first start in do-or-die Game 5. Not sure where you got those numbers from? Looking at '89 maybe?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?[/QUOTE]
Um, rookie Pippen had 24/6/5/4 in the game in question - the do or die game 5 vs. Cavs. He also led a 10-1 run with MJ on the bench that gave the Bulls their first lead of the game. Maybe you should watch the video he linked, because without the "worthless scrub rookie Pippen", Bulls are out of the first round again that year - MJ's numbers and all. Seems like you are thinking of the '89 series when hitman was clearly referring to the '88 series (first playoff series win of MJ's career).

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Pippen put up 24/6/5 as a rookie in his first start in do-or-die Game 5. Not sure where you got those numbers from? Looking at '89 maybe?[/QUOTE]

That's right, I was thinking the "shot on Ehlo" Cavs series came first because the Bulls were underdogs, they had a better regular season in '88 though didn't they?

Look all great players have a positive impact on one another but this "MJ made Pippen into an all-star" nonsense really has to stop...

He was a top 5 draft pick, Bulls were aware of the skill set he possessed and traded for him. He played PG most of his life before a growth spurt and developed his court vision and ball handling skills then. He averaged 3 spg in college (more than MJ btw), had great team defense instincts as early as his rookie season. Pippen did what all players do, get better as he gained more experience. Phil is the one who helped his game more than anyone by putting him in an offensive system that would suited his strengths - though a more uptempo style might have been even better. MJ definitely made him a better individual defender, increased his bball IQ but other than that, I'm not seeing it. And like I said, I'm not sure he helped Pip's game more than Phil did.

MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.

It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?

[QUOTE]Jordan won 50 games in 1988 when Pippen was a foul-prone benchwarming 20 mpg scrub. Get real.[/QUOTE]
Dominique won 50 that year with about the same level of help. Almost took down the Celtics too. Where's his medal? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]His 13/10/4 damn fine game meant more than Michael's 44-8-6 including a buzzer beater?[/QUOTE]
LOL ... MJ's clutch layup and CLUTCH defensive stop / steal on Malone to even get to the game winner?

People here are reeeeeee diculous.

May i ask why i deserved 3 negative reps for this thread? Do you hate Pippen that much or? Just asking, maybe i missed something.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]

This is stupid. :facepalm Why wouldn't Jordan want to play with someone that's been by his side for 12 or 13 years...whom he won multiple titles with? Why would he need to prove he could win without Pippen when winning was enough for him? Jordan wasn't threatened by Pippen's presence on the team, nor should he have been. They complimented each other perfectly to the tune of 6 titles. Why would he want to opt for proving he could win without Pippen when it wasn't even an issue until well after he retired when internet nerds needed a way to invalidate anything he did?

Jordan and Pippen were more rational about their relationship than their respective fans. I can understand Shaq and Kobe fans fighting over this and that because they themselves did. But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.

This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when [I]they themselves know better.[/I]

I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.

[QUOTE=Kurosawa0]Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate anymore than Chauncey Billups was one. His name might have been mentioned, but he was never seriously going to win the award.

I love how building up Pippen is now seen as the cool thing as long as it tarnishes Jordan.

Listen, those of us that actually watched the game back then will tell you, Pippen was a sidekick. He was a great, great player. One of the top 30 in league history, but that team lived and breathed Michael Jordan. He was it.[/QUOTE]

Billups? :oldlol:

Peak Pippen was actually very close to mid 80s Magic statistically speaking...

'94 Pippen:

22/9/6/3 on 49%
All-defensive first team
23.2 PER (lets use PER since MJ fans love this statistic)
Bulls were 51-21 in games he played, and 4-6 without him

'85 Magic:

18/6/13/2 on 56%
23.2 PER
Lakers were 57-20 in games he played, and 5-0 without him

Magic is obviously the better offensive player (and would go on to become an even better player after '87), but Pippen has a huge huge edge defensively. But had Pippen's prime come in the mid 80s, against a worse league defensively and while playing on a faster pace (imagine even more transition scoring opportunities for Scottie), is a 24/10/7 season on 50+% really out of the question here? Maybe even something like 25/10/8 if he played in the mid 80s run and gun Western Conference (defensively those were some of the worst conferences in NBA history, almost every team gave up 110+ ppg). Pippen can lock down Magic in a one on one matchup as we've already seen in '91, but can you say the same is true the other way around? I think '87-'89 Magic > any version of Pippen, but mid 80s Magic vs. Pippen is a really good comparison imo. Both players can dominate a game while taking less than 10 shots too.

Great post real you and hitman are 2 of my favoorite posters. I just don't believe this stuff is being argued in an appreciation thread. I was ducking in the larry bird thread every so often and it was just amazing how much smoke was being blown up his ass. Now most it was true, but noone came in there knocking his defense, or question some of his championships etc.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]kind of overrated. Perfect sidekick but not good enough to be the main guy. Never scored close to 25 per game and did not even reach 20K points for his career.

His career post-Jordan really damaged my opinion of him. In 1999, Pippen was only 33 and with significantly less mileage than someone like Kobe now and what happened? An embarassing season in Houston capped by shooting 33% in the playoffs and then having the gall to blame Barkley. Then forcing a trade to Portland, settling into a pure role player mode and not stepping up (shooting 3 for 10) when Portland blew a 15 point lead in game 7 against the Lakers. Never saw second round of the playoffs afterwards.

So could Jordan have won without Pippen or another well-rounded all-star - no, of course not. Is Pippen a top 20/25 GOAT - not in my opinion .[/QUOTE]

Pippen had to play with Michael Jordan for the majority of his career. That shouldn't be used against him.


Pippen is the GOAT perimeter defender, was a MVP caliber player, and at least a top 5 player for several years (and the best all-around player) and the best SF in his prime. Was this because of Michael Jordan?:confusedshrug: For 1

[QUOTE=Da_Realist] But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.

This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when [I]they themselves know better.[/I]

I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[QUOTE]Pippen was never a legit MVP candidate [/QUOTE]

:roll: He was as legit as KG in 08' despite missing ten games.

[QUOTE]Who cares how much Pierce and Vince scored? [/QUOTE]

It is amusing to see this fetish for scoring. If we are to fetishize scoring over a defensive monster who was a consummate team player and consistently won why does the Wilt vs. Russell debate still exist? The logic advanced by several in this thread leads to a simple conclusion: Wilt>>Russell. Why the inconsistency?

[QUOTE]In 2008-2010 Kobe got to be with another significant talent (Pau Gasol) by his side. Where was Kobe before that? What was he doing before Gasol? Oh yeah, he was doing what Michael Jordan was doing before Pippen. He was doing what Lebron James was doing the last two seasons. He was putting up numbers and losing. 2005, no playoffs. 2006, first round exit. 2007, first round exit. [/QUOTE]

:D

[QUOTE]Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized [/QUOTE]

Hell, Lebron elevated his team far more than the "clear GOAT" did. Several other GOAT candidates joined trash teams and had them contending immediately. MJ needed four years to even get out the first round and post a winning record.

[QUOTE]
MJ wasn't taking Scottie's jumpers at the gym for him, MJ didn't make him talented enough to be taken top 5 in a draft, MJ didn't give him his unique all-around skill-set that he developed due to his PG background, MJ didn't give him the work ethic which Scottie used to rise from being a team manager at the start of college to being one of the top prospects in the draft after college. I know it's easy to look back through homer-vision and rewrite history but do you really need to MJ to take credit for everything? He made him a better player. Just like Pippen made MJ a better player by giving the ball to him in the right spots, giving him rest by taking a defensive assignment if he was tired or was in foul trouble, by facilitating the team's offense and getting teammates involved so MJ wouldn't have to worry about it.

It's shameful these dudes on here can't even give him credit for becoming the player he became, because once again "it was all MJ". How many other guys did MJ play with over the course of his career? Why didn't he "make them"?[/QUOTE]

:applause:

With respect to the last two sentences, MJ stans never answer those obvious questions because we all know the obvious answer. Why can't MJ "make" a Pippen in Charlotte? How about Washington? Does MJ enjoy being a failure as a GM? He should get out of the office, hit the gym and "make" another Pippen. Is the ultimate competitor now the ultimate slacker?

[QUOTE]No you dolt, it's not strange AT ALL that a 35 year old player would want to stay with what worked (Pippen and Jackson, which were his conditions for returning) rather than learn a new system under a new coach with a new partner at that stage of his career at age 36.[/QUOTE]

How about a 32 year old fresh off a MVP and his fourth ring? Pippen's days as a superstar were numbered. Krause recognized it and wanted to ship him out while he had immense value. Pippen was getting old but more importantly his body was breaking down. If Pippen is interchangeable with a random elite player why not swap him with a young elite player so MJ could keep winning well into his 30's, not retire at age 35 because he knew he was toast without Scottie?

[QUOTE]What's even more hysterical is imbeciles like you who think that Jordan plus Ewing/DRob/Barkley/Hakeem/Drexler wouldn't have run the league from '88 onward [/QUOTE]

Sure, in video games. The Bulls had no shot at acquiring those players. Ask Cleveland Cavaliers fans how acquiring superstars works. The best players they ever got for Lebron were Jamison, old Shaq, and Mo Williams. Only MJ fans think the Bulls could have acquired Hakeem in exchange for Bill Cartwright, Craig Hodges and 2nd round pick. The Bulls best trade asset under the "no Pippen" scenario would have been Horace Grant.

[QUOTE]And you pick on Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Really? Read the thread. It is insecure MJ fans who hijacked a "cheers to Scottie" thread.

Kareem -- took a 2nd year expansion team that won 27 games the year before to the ECF as a rookie without Oscar or Magic

Shaq -- always had great teams so there isn't anything to say about him.

Bird -- took a 29 win team to the ECF as a rookie, won a ring with McHale averaging about 10 points on the bench.

The real question is strength relative to the league, something MJ fans conveniently ignore due to expansion. Who wins? An average team from 1965 or 1995? The answer is the former. Jordan had a team that won 55 games while replacing him with a D-League scrub. How many other superstars of that era had a team of that strength? Let's see hard facts, not speculation about teams that wound up winning 56 games despite their top player being out for a while but went 8-9 without the superstar in question, as MJ fans did previously when this question was posed.

[QUOTE]One more thing, why in the hell would you criticize Jordan for having a great player on a great team when that's what you are suppose to do in basketball?[/QUOTE]

Good question. Ask MJ fans why they criticize Pippen for having a great player on a great team in every Pippen thread. :D

:oldlol: at someone implying 94' was a fluke for Pip. 95' was on par with 94' and he was arguably even slightly better for 4/5 of 96' before getting hurt.

[QUOTE]I just don't believe this stuff is being argued in an appreciation thread. I was ducking in the larry bird thread every so often and it was just amazing how much smoke was being blown up his ass. Now most it was true, but noone came in there knocking his defense, or question some of his championships e[/QUOTE]

This happens in every Pippen thread thanks to the agenda of fans of the "clear GOAT", who tend to be ex-Bulls fans. I've said it before and I will say it again: if the claims made about Jordan are accurate why the perpetual need to promote a slew of myths around him? His record should suffice, like the record of every other GOAT candidate in basketball or football or racing or hockey does...Do you see Kareem fans trashing Magic? Montana fans diminishing Rice? Gretzky fans saying Messier sucked? Jimmie Johnson fans saying he had terrible cars? Jordan fans are the ONLY exception. Why?

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]

Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]

Wow, I usually just respectfully disagree with most of your posts, but this is probably by far the dumbest thing you've ever posted.

This resembles alot more of what one of those crazy Kobe trolls would post as opposed to what I would expect from you.

It depends on whether you accept the proposition that Jordan could have won with any random elite player. If that is the case then why not opt for a younger one and keep the rings coming instead of retiring after three consecutive championships and a MVP because Scottie left? It is a logical question based on MJ fan's rhetoric.

*Jordan could win with any random elite player
*Pippen was old and breaking down physically
*Pippen still had high trade value and the Bulls could have gotten a young all-star for him

Why keep him around? Sentimentality? From [I]Jordan[/I]. :roll: Jordan left rings on the table because of sentimentality regarding a guy he probably has spoken to maybe three times in the past decade?

I wasn't serious about MJ leaving or pushing for Pip to leave to prove a point but the evidence suggests MJ did not accept the proposition that he could easily win without Scottie.

[QUOTE]Actually it is. Jordan refused to play--threatened to retire--without Pippen--vetoing at least one Pippen trade. Why? If he could win with any random all-star why not plug in a young all-star in place of Pippen and keep winning longer? Instead Jordan opted to stay with an aging, injury-prone superstar in the late 90's. For a man who loved challenges it indeed is quite strange that he never attempted to see how he could do without Scottie...[/QUOTE]

''Tracy McGrady was selected ninth overall in the NBA Draft 1997 by the Toronto Raptors. Chicago Bulls GM Jerry Krause had arranged a draft-day trade to send Scottie Pippen to Toronto for the 9th overall pick, which he would have used to take McGrady. [B]Krause decided not to make the deal when Michael Jordan threatened to retire if it was made. [/B]''

Interesting....

[QUOTE=hitmanyr2k]Yippee...pretty numbers, 50 wins and possibly a first round exit. Like I said before, these days that gets you a 25 cent bag of chips. Hell, Lebron got to the ECF with a 60 win team and put up pretty numbers. What did it get him in the end? Criticized and scrutinized :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Ummm, I think his point was that Jordan having his first winning season in Pippen's rookie year is more of a coincidence as opposed to being the result of Pippen.

[QUOTE=Ne 1]''Tracy McGrady was selected ninth overall in the NBA Draft 1997 by the Toronto Raptors. Chicago Bulls GM Jerry Krause had arranged a draft-day trade to send Scottie Pippen to Toronto for the 9th overall pick, which he would have used to take McGrady. [B]Krause decided not to make the deal when Michael Jordan threatened to retire if it was made. [/B]''

Interesting....[/QUOTE]

I can understand that since T Mac was coming out of high school but why wasn't MJ on his feet cheering for trading Pippen for Kemp, McDyess, et al.? There were a million Pippen trade scenarios since half the league wanted the overrated scrub even in the middle of his career. Hey, MJ could have had a dominant big man!

[QUOTE]Hey, MJ could have had a dominant big man![/QUOTE]



And how many times have we heard from Jordan stans ''he's the only player to ever win without a dominant big man!''

Jordan won 6 rings without a center, it might as well of been 4 on 5 according to them. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]It depends on whether you accept the proposition that Jordan could have won with any random elite player. If that is the case then why not opt for a younger one and keep the rings coming instead of retiring after three consecutive championships and a MVP because Scottie left? It is a logical question based on MJ fan's rhetoric.

*Jordan could win with any random elite player
*Pippen was old and breaking down physically
*Pippen still had high trade value and the Bulls could have gotten a young all-star for him

Why keep him around? Sentimentality? From [I]Jordan[/I]. :roll: Jordan left rings on the table because of sentimentality regarding a guy he probably has spoken to maybe three times in the past decade?

I wasn't serious about MJ leaving or pushing for Pip to leave to prove a point but the evidence suggests MJ did not accept the proposition that he could easily win without Scottie.[/QUOTE]

You realize that Jordan/Pippen/Phil for years were united in a huge feud with management right? So Jordan clearly wasn't going to keep quiet and not take a stand when they were trying to push the two other major pieces to a dynasty. And really? Kemp, McDyess, T-Mac? How can you blame him for wanting Pippen around when that was what was clearly working and none of those other guys were better then Pippen? Why make a change when thats what was clearly working? Would you expect a CEO to sit around and do nothing while the CFO is getting pushed out by a board of directors even while business is better then ever? Jordan was protesting to something that was clearly very stupid. Hard to blame him for that. And the Kemp rumors were while Jordan was retired in the 94 offseason. Its not like we're talking about Duncan, Shaq, Ewing, Malone, Robinson or Hakeem here. If those guys were on the table at certain points of the dynasty, and Jordan protested, then you might have a point. And either way, just because those other guys mentioned in rumors were younger, Jordan WAS NOT. Bulls getting T-Mac or McDyess was not going to make Jordan want to play an extra 5 years, most of it spent on Pippen's replacement still developing.

Seriously, don't you think it would be pretty stupid for Kobe to back a Gasol for Bosh trade just cause Bosh is younger even after they've won 2 titles in a row? And unlike Jordan' scenario, Bosh isn't developing anymore and is just about in his prime. Like I said, this is probably the dumbest argument you've ever made.

And where do you get how often they've talked to each other over the past decade from?

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Jordan and Pippen were more rational about their relationship than their respective fans. I can understand Shaq and Kobe fans fighting over this and that because they themselves did. But Jordan and Pippen rarely ever had anything negative to say about each other and were probably each other's biggest fans. Jordan said Pippen was the best player in the league. He said Pippen was the best player on the Dream Team. He told the world that Pippen was "his MVP" when he received the 1997 Finals MVP. Jordan complimented one guy in his Hall of Fame speech -- Scottie Pippen. Pippen has repeatedly said Jordan is the GOAT. Repeatedly said Jordan helped him reach his potential. Pippen chose Jordan to introduce him into the Hall of Fame.

This is how you want teammates to act. They respected each other because the only thing each of them wanted was to win. It's f*cked up that we can't appreciate Jordan without mentioning how he didn't win sh*t without Pippen. Or we can't discuss Pippen without mentioning that he was a useless scrub without Jordan when [I]they themselves know better.[/I]

I come on this board and all these people with all these thinly veiled agendas come in to push one player over another when that's not how we're supposed to view basketball. Both Jordan and Pippen fans know good and *** damn well they helped each other reach their potential (winning AND individual accolades). Nobody wins alone. Could Pippen have won without Jordan? Of course. Given a 15 year career, the right team and coaching staff -- Yes. Could Jordan have won without Pippen? Yes. Given the proper environment, yes. It's a stupid argument. Did they win together? Yes. 6 times. That's all that should matter.[/QUOTE]

Repped. :applause: :applause:

As a Bulls fan, this is how it should be. Anything otherwise is just agenda-driven.

For people focusing on Pippen from 1993 to 1995, I agree that Pippen was great in 1993-1994 but nothing out-of-the ordinary - someone like David Robinson had half a dozen seasons as good or greater than that, let alone someone like Barkley or Malone. In 1994-1995, Pippen was still very good statistically but I had a sense that he lost some of his fire and the Bulls were a .500 team before Jordan rejoined. As the Bulls lacked another great scorer, what the Bulls really needed during these 2 years was for Pippen to be able to score in the high 20s and Pippen didn't have it in him.

Bottom line is that Pippen was a great player in his prime but he was not good enough to be the main guy on a championship team. Also as I posted earlier, Pippen's prime was relatively short - basically from 1989 through 1998 and he became a role player by the time he was 33 with only 37K minutes played at that point.

[QUOTE=kizut1659]You cannot be serious. Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he is not really comparable to Pippen. Scoring wise there is simply no comparison - again, Kobe is a poor man's MJ but he has been a 25-30 scorer for 10 straight years. Pippen's highest scoring average has been 22ppg and his career average is 16. We all know KObe is going to hit 30K points for his career, while Pippen's never hit 20K, scoring less than John Stockton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, etc.

Kobe WAS Pippen (maybe slightly worse actually) in 2000, but already in 2001 and 2002 his role on the team was more central than Pippen's ever was. I don't think there was a single playoff series where Pippen was more important than Jordan. By contrast, Kobe was the most important player by a healthy margin in the series against the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 (and arguably against the Kings in 2001.) It of course goes without saying that Kobe's 3 straight finals appearances as "the man" in 2008-2010 cannot be compared to Pippen's sole good season as "the man" in 1993-1994.

Again, I am not comparing Kobe to Jordan - he is just not as good and never will be now that he is past his prime already (even though i think the 5 vs. 1 mvp overstates the margin). But in terms of greatness, he is certainly closer to Jordan than Pippen.[/QUOTE]

Except Pippen did everything else on the court(rebounding, passing, defense, etc), aside from scoring, better than Kobe. He also was a far greater teammate and leader. Kobe/Pippen comparisons are far more valid than Kobe/Jordan.

What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.

Watch any interview with the rest of the Bulls. Kerr, Bushy, Randy will all tell you Pip lead the team.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. He certainly didn't/was not able to serve as a positive influence on Rasheed Wallance and Bonzie Wells. Also, his 1994 refusal to enter the game and 1998 threats to not play that season come to mind.

[QUOTE]In 1994-1995, Pippen was still very good statistically but I had a sense that he lost some of his fire[/QUOTE]

What? That was probably his best season ever defensively despite being asked to carry the biggest load in the league: anchor the defense, lead the team in scoring, rebounding, blocks, minutes and assists while running the offense.

[QUOTE]As the Bulls lacked another great scorer, what the Bulls really needed during these 2 years was for Pippen to be able to score in the high 20s and Pippen didn't have it in him.[/QUOTE]

How many point guards/point forwards score that much? Why would you want your primary playmaker scoring that much, unless it was someone like Lebron? Pippen's teammates loved him and part of the reason was he was primarily interested in winning and he knew to do that he had to make his teammates better. Part of how he did that was being a pass-first player.

[QUOTE]he became a role player by the time he was 33 with only 37K minutes played at that point.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, his 98' back injury had nothing to do with it. :rolleyes: The fact is, in addition to his injury, he had played 11 seasons by then and then the equivalent of 2 1/2 seasons because he was in the playoffs every year, usually going deep. On top of that he played twice in the Olympics. The notion that he had the mileage of a typical 33 year old is demonstrably false.

[QUOTE]What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?[/QUOTE]

The best evidence possible: the words of his teammates and coaches throughout his career. What evidence is there to suggest he was [I]not[/I] a good leader? If he was a poor leader why--based on the available evidence--was Scottie the guy teammates turned to when they needed encouragement or inspiration? Is that not precisely the time one looks for leadership?

Regarding Portland, check out Portland's win-loss record with and without him, even in 2002 and 2003. They went from top 5 in the league to barely top 20 both times. Was it his 11/6/5 they were missing?

It is strange to me that time and again leadership on here is viewed simply through the lens of ability on the basketball court, usually scoring prowess. There are nearly 30 teams. The notion that the best player=the leader 90% of the time ignores group dynamics and shows a lack of understanding of what leadership is. Having a superlative ability to put a ball through a hoop hardly correlates with the skills needed to be a great leader.

[QUOTE]Yeah, his 98' back injury had nothing to do with it. [/QUOTE]

Before that back injury I thought he should have (and would have) been Finals MVP if he didn't hurt his back taking a million Karl Malone charges. Also his game 4 is the best defense ever played that I've seen.

jordan and pippen.
i'm tired of people putting down one in favour of the other.
is it that hard to come to grips that two of the greatest players
played on the same team at the same time?

two franchise players started their careers and
spend the best basketball years on the same team.

with skills that complemented each other perfectly.

maybe it sounds too good to be true...
does not happen often....
in fact, only happened once...
6 championships, best record ever...:bowdown:

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T][B]What examples do we have of Pippen being a good leader?[/B]

Late in his career he was a cancer in Houston and the so-called leader of the most undisciplined team in the NBA (Portland)

He was almost never a problem player, but I never thought of him as a leader.

Someone set me straight if I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]



[I]"On the Bulls he [Pippen] was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. [B]Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths[/B]. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. [B]Scottie's leadership was equally dominant[/B], but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."[/I]

Phil Jackson
[url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm[/url]

"[I][B]Scottie was our team leader.[/B] He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively...[/I]"

Phil Jackson
[url]http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2005/12/scottie-pippens-place-in-basketball.html[/url]

Bill Wennington echoes the same sentiments in his book, entitled [I]Bill Wennington's Tales from the Bulls Hardwood[/I]. He says

[I]"Scottie was my favorite Bull. It's not the most popular thing to say in Chicago, because Michael is supposed to be everybody's favorite. And I loved Michael as a person and as a teammate. I just appreciated Scottie more...

Michael will test you everyday. But Michael will also let you burn in the coach's eyes to see how you handle the situation. [B]Scottie handled his relationships with his teammates differently, and better, in my opinion [/B]...

My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--[B]Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership [/B]and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...

...[B]Scottie led that team[/B] ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but t[B]hat season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader.[/B]"[/I]
[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url] pp.11-17