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[QUOTE=chungerball]You mean the opponents that he found as well, or just the weight class? Because Manny has demolished each fighter from each higher weight class he fought. Jones didn't look good at heavyweight at all to me.[/QUOTE]
Just the feat of adding that much weight. Going from fly to light middle weight is adding about 30-40 pounds. Going from middle to heavy weight is adding like 50-60 pounds. The difference in fighter becomes more severe the higher you go.
Roy Jones only fought once in heavyweight. He just couldn't do it again, it's too much for him. Still pretty impressive though.
On another note, do you guys think that skilled giants like Lennox Lewis, Klitchko Brothers, Nikolay Valuev, etc would dominate the legends like Ali, Frazier and Foreman?
[QUOTE=iamgine]Roy Jones only fought once in heavyweight. He just couldn't do it again, it's too much for him. Still pretty impressive though.
On another note, do you guys think that skilled giants like Lennox Lewis, Klitchko Brothers, Nikolay Valuev, etc would dominate the legends like Ali, Frazier and Foreman?[/QUOTE]
Nope
A Past his prime George Foreman KO'ed Michael Moorer back in 1994. Prime Ali and Foreman had good size, long reach, and they were also very skilled boxer.
Frazier is one the hardest punchers of all time. Lewis, Klitshcko brothers, and Haye were already KO'ed by lesser skilled boxers.
I think they are capable of beating the best boxers in the Heavyweight Division.
A 38 yrs.old Lennox Lewis defeated a much younger Vitali Klitschko. Prime Ali, Foreman, and Frazier would beat a Prime Lennox Lewis.
Of-course Haye, Lennox, Wladimir, and Vitali Klitschko are future Hall of famers, but they are not in the same level as Ali, Frazier, and Foreman.
Lennox and Wlad might be rank higher than Foreman and Frazier in the Heavyweight All time lists because of their dominance in their respective era.
I think the only fight that can save the heavyweight division if Wladimir plans to fight Vitali next year.
I am huge fan of David Haye, but he's not yet ready to face the Klitschko brothers. I agree with Roy Jones that you need to have a Mike Tysonesque attitude (Inside the ring) if you want to beat the K Brothers.
[QUOTE=iamgine]Roy Jones only fought once in heavyweight. He just couldn't do it again, it's too much for him. Still pretty impressive though.
On another note, do you guys think that skilled giants like Lennox Lewis, Klitchko Brothers, Nikolay Valuev, etc would dominate the legends like Ali, Frazier and Foreman?[/QUOTE]
Jones fought in light heavyweight many times though, which is incredible when you consider he started with about a 150 pound frame. To add that type of weight is really hard to do. That is probably the biggest reason he has lost so much recently as well. It really takes a toll on your body to put that kind of weight on, and fight people who haven't fluctuated as much.
Pacquiao Is the Best Southpaw Boxer ever
/thread
[QUOTE]Lennox and Wlad might be rank higher than Foreman and Frazier in the Heavyweight All time lists because of their dominance in their respective era.
[/QUOTE]
You have to take into account the level of competition in the era. This is by far the weakest era in the history of the heavyweight division. Wlad isn't even a top 25 HW. I can list 25 guys who were better boxers than him. Easily
Cool thread btw
You'd have to be nuts to put the brothers Kiltschko above Frazier and especially ****ing crazy to put them above Foreman. Their level of competition has been historically low, and both of them have lost more than once to these mediocre fighters, even if Vitali's losses were kind of freakish.
Icing Norton, Chuvalo, Frazierx2, and coming back to win the title over Moorer at two hundred years old is far more impressive than anything Wlad has done.
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]Leonard is higher than pac and its not really arguable. Pac also lost to morales, very easily could have been 0-2 against JMM and beatting berrera doesnt matchup with beating the hitman. So 1-1 vs duran> 2-1 vs morales, 1-0 vs hearns>2-0 vs berrera 1-0 hagler>1-0-1 vs JMM.[/QUOTE]
You'd have an argument if Pac's career ended after fighting those Mexican legends, though I think Hagler won that fight, but it didn't.
A large part of Manny's greatness comes from moving so high above his natural weight and dominating gifted fighters in De La Hoya, Clottey, Cotto, Hatton, and Margarito. None of them are going to wind up top 100 probably, but they are all skilled fighters and former champions and not one of them put up a competitive fight for 12 rounds. Reckon that's what puts him over Leonard.
[QUOTE=chungerball]That can't be a typo....I [B]sense[/B] some illiteracy amongst us here.[/QUOTE]
Which shouldn't be surprising considering what sport this site is about. Urban sports will get urban fans.
[QUOTE=Kobe8]Pacquiao Is the Best Southpaw Boxer ever
/thread[/QUOTE]
I'd probably say that the three best southpaws of all-time are Pacquiao, Marvin Hagler and Pernell Whitaker.
[QUOTE=Zombles]You'd have to be nuts to put the brothers Kiltschko above Frazier and especially ****ing crazy to put them above Foreman. Their level of competition has been historically low, and both of them have lost more than once to these mediocre fighters, even if Vitali's losses were kind of freakish.
Icing Norton, Chuvalo, Frazierx2, and coming back to win the title over Moorer at two hundred years old is far more impressive than anything Wlad has done.
You'd have an argument if Pac's career ended after fighting those Mexican legends, though I think Hagler won that fight, but it didn't.
A large part of Manny's greatness comes from moving so high above his natural weight and dominating gifted fighters in De La Hoya, Clottey, Cotto, Hatton, and Margarito. None of them are going to wind up top 100 probably, but they are all skilled fighters and former champions and not one of them put up a competitive fight for 12 rounds. Reckon that's what puts him over Leonard.[/QUOTE]
De la Hoya and Cotto are the only two of those that contribute anything to his all time legacy other than moving up in weight. Hatton, Margarito and Clottey do nothing.
[QUOTE]De la Hoya and Cotto are the only two of those that contribute anything to his all time legacy other than moving up in weight. Hatton, Margarito and Clottey do nothing.[/QUOTE]
Plus Oscar was an over the hill string bean when they fought. 1996 Oscar vs Pac, different outcome.
I don't see any argument for Pacquiao being in front of Leonard... Or even all that close, for that matter. Beating Duran, Hagler and Hearns > than anything Pac has done.
What is the argument for Pac?
[QUOTE=Tarik One]Plus Oscar was an over the hill string bean when they fought. 1996 Oscar vs Pac, different outcome.[/QUOTE]
Oscar was clearly out of his prime but I think that that was a case of Manny making DLH look THAT old, much like Floyd made Mosley look THAT old. Im not saying either was in their absolute prime or anything but I also think it was simply the greatness of their opponent that made them look that bad.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]I'd probably say that the three best southpaws of all-time are Pacquiao, Marvin Hagler and Pernell Whitaker.[/QUOTE]
No argument there.
[QUOTE]De la Hoya and Cotto are the only two of those that contribute anything to his all time legacy other than moving up in weight. Hatton, Margarito and Clottey do nothing.[/QUOTE]
What? :wtf:
If anything Hatton does the most for his legacy because he took his record 4th lineal title from Hatton (who was indestructible at 140) and the ease and brutality with which he did it. I'd say DLH did the least (barring $) because he was old and drained, his victory against a 165lb 32 year old Margarito is more impressive than the one against the 147 35 year old Oscar IMO. Cotto and Clottey were both big, strong, durable fighters who took eachother to the limit and presented different challenges to Manny- Cotto is a big powerful boxer/puncher, Clottey being an iron-chinned defensive counter-puncher who routinely comes in at 160+ himself on fight night.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]No argument there.
What? :wtf:
If anything Hatton does the most for his legacy because he took his record 4th lineal title from Hatton (who was indestructible at 140) and the ease and brutality with which he did it. I'd say DLH did the least (barring $) because he was old and drained, his victory against a 165lb 32 year old Margarito is more impressive than the one against the 147 35 year old Oscar IMO. Cotto and Clottey were both big, strong, durable fighters who took eachother to the limit and presented different challenges to Manny- Cotto is a big powerful boxer/puncher, Clottey being an iron-chinned defensive counter-puncher who routinely comes in at 160+ himself on fight night.[/QUOTE]
Margarito was a disgrace who barely hasn't done anything without bricks in his gloves(that we know for sure) and hadnt looked good at all in his last 2 fights. Clottey literally didnt fight and isnt anything special in an all time sense. Ive never thought of hatton as anything all that special. That may be my personal opinion coloring his rating as a boxer(much like your personal opinion of floyd affects your opinion of floyd as a boxer)
[QUOTE]I don't see any argument for Pacquiao being in front of Leonard... Or even all that close, for that matter. Beating Duran, Hagler and Hearns > than anything Pac has done.
[/QUOTE]
+ Benitez. Benitez was just one of the best defensive 147 pounders ever.
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]Margarito was a disgrace who barely hasn't done anything without bricks in his gloves(that we know for sure) and hadnt looked good at all in his last 2 fights. Clottey literally didnt fight and isnt anything special in an all time sense. Ive never thought of hatton as anything all that special. That may be my personal opinion coloring his rating as a boxer(much like your personal opinion of floyd affects your opinion of floyd as a boxer)[/QUOTE]
Margarito, all side-stories notwithstanding, was a 6' super-middleweight in the ring and has always been known for his granite jaw... and a 5'6" midget who was only 1 lb over the WW limit [B]literally[/B] broke his face.
He came into the ring Mexican, he left Chinese :oldlol:
[IMG]http://imgur.com/kfcTU.jpg[/IMG]
Clottey did nothing because he was afraid to open up because Pac was way too fast. And I never thought much of Hatton but the fact is he was undefeated at 140 and was the undisputed lineal champion, and he was sent into a depression and cocaine-fueled early retirement in 2 rounds.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Margarito, all side-stories notwithstanding, was a 6' super-middleweight in the ring and has always been known for his granite jaw... and a 5'6" midget who was only 1 lb over the WW limit [B]literally[/B] broke his face.
He came into the ring Mexican, he left Chinese :oldlol:
[IMG]http://imgur.com/kfcTU.jpg[/IMG]
Clottey did nothing because he was afraid to open up because Pac was way too fast. And I never thought much of Hatton but the fact is he was undefeated at 140 and was the undisputed lineal champion, and he was sent into a depression and cocaine-fueled early retirement in 2 rounds.[/QUOTE]
Margarito was a super middleweight? Really? Antonio margarito is and always has been a welterweight. Hes fought I believe 3 fights above welter in his career and never above light middle. Calling him a super middle is just wrong.
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]Margarito was a super middleweight? Really? Antonio margarito is and always has been a welterweight. Hes fought I believe 3 fights above welter in his career and never above light middle. Calling him a super middle is just wrong.[/QUOTE]
165 lbs to Pac's 148 in the ring.
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]165 lbs to Pac's 148 in the ring.[/QUOTE]
Hes not the first guy to cut weight and rehydrate. You are better than this. He was 150 for the purposes of the fight and could have easily fought at 147. It was a welterweight fight that Arum and Co pretended was a light middleweight fight in order to get manny a fake title.
[QUOTE]Hes not the first guy to cut weight and rehydrate. You are better than this. He was 150 for the purposes of the fight and could have easily fought at 147. It was a welterweight fight that Arum and Co pretended was a light middleweight fight in order to get manny a fake title.[/QUOTE]
Remember when Arturo Gatti rehydrated overnight against a that one guy and damn near killed him in the ring? Gatti was like twice his size once the bell rang.
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]Hes not the first guy to cut weight and rehydrate. You are better than this. He was 150 for the purposes of the fight and could have easily fought at 147. It was a welterweight fight that Arum and Co pretended was a light middleweight fight in order to get manny a fake title.[/QUOTE]
Ok, and he was 165 lbs in the ring to Manny's 148. How does anything you typed change that fact?
[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Ok, and he was 165 lbs in the ring to Manny's 148. How does anything you typed change that fact?[/QUOTE]
And that has no bearing whatsoever on anything. He made the 150 weight limit so for the purposes of the fight he was 150. Again its not uncommon for people to rehydrate up. Manny is impressive enough on his own not to make up accomplishments.
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]And that has no bearing whatsoever on anything. He made the 150 weight limit so for the purposes of the fight he was 150. Again its not uncommon for people to rehydrate up. Manny is impressive enough on his own not to make up accomplishments.[/QUOTE]
How is it a made up accomplishment? Pacquiao has never faced anyone that big and strong with that sort of weight disadvantage. Even with DLH, he came in at 145 on the scales and rehydrated to 147 (at age 35) and that to you is more impressive than Margarito at 165 and Pac breaking his face?
[QUOTE=Tarik One]+ Benitez. Benitez was just one of the best defensive 147 pounders ever.[/QUOTE]
Yes... Benitez was also a great, great win. It was a dominant victory, too... And Benitez was undefeated at the time.
I was never a huge SRL guy. My favorites of that era were Duran and Hearns later on, but you can't deny what the guy accomplished.
I'll just put it like this... SRL actually dominated a guy who is above him on the pound-for-pound list (Duran). There aren't too many all-timers who can say that they dominated one of the Top 5 boxers to ever live. SRL can say that.
The interesting thing about Leonard is that he didn't fight all that much. He only had 36 bouts in his injury-plagued (and possible drug-plagued) career. However, you look at the quality of opponents and it is nearly unparalleled. Benitez, Hearns, Hagler, Duran... even guys like Kalule, Lalonde and Terry Norris/Camacho later in his career.
He may have the most star-studded resume outside of SRR.
As for Pacquiao, he has a legitimate argument for being in the Top 20 all-time. The thing that his resume is missing, though, is that other great p4p equal in their prime. That is why this potential bout with Mayweather is so important.
I've heard Pac say that he doesn't need Floyd. While that is undeniably true when it comes to finishing with a great career, he does need Floyd if he wants to crack the SRL territory.
What is Pacquiao's greatest victory? Morales? Marquez? Barrera? Cotto?
Those are very nice wins, don't get me wrong... But you won't find any of those names within anyone's Top 50 all-time pound-for-pound list.
Floyd and Manny need each other if either has any plans to make a run at the Top 10 all-time list. Hopefully, pride and ego don't get in the way of making the most sensible, obvious and historically significant boxing match since Duran-Leonard I.
In fact, ego and pride is exactly what should make this fight happen. Come on, guys.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]As for Pacquiao, he has a legitimate argument for being in the Top 20 all-time. The thing that his resume is missing, though, is that other great p4p equal in their prime. That is why this potential bout with Mayweather is so important.
I've heard Pac say that he doesn't need Floyd. While that is undeniably true when it comes to finishing with a great career, he does need Floyd if he wants to crack the SRL territory.
[B]What is Pacquiao's greatest victory? Morales? Marquez? Barrera? Cotto? [/B]
Those are very nice wins, don't get me wrong... But you won't find any of those names within anyone's Top 50 all-time pound-for-pound list.
Floyd and Manny need each other if either has any plans to make a run at the Top 10 all-time list. Hopefully, pride and ego don't get in the way of making the most sensible, obvious and historically significant boxing match since Duran-Leonard I.
In fact, ego and pride is exactly what should make this fight happen. Come on, guys.[/QUOTE]
I say Barrera. He was in the top 5 lb 4 lb list (behind only RJJ, Hopkins, and maybe Forrest) and had run off consecutive victories against Naseem Hamed (35-0), Erik Morales (41-0), Johnny Tapia (52-2-2), and Kevin Kelley (54-5-2) and was only 29 years old and the heavy favorite when a still raw Pacquiao made his corner throw in the towel to save Marco.
Both Barrera and Morales are in most Top 50 ATG lists and are considered by most to be in the top 5 all time Mexican fighters list along with Lopez, Chavez, and Sanchez. Manny has 4 victories against them.
Top 15-20
Pacquiao is gonna be rank higher once he retires from professional boxing. He's not one of the most skilled Boxer of all time, But he's one hell of a fighter.
Manny Pacquiao vs. the undefeated Timothy Bradley. ( Best Light Welterweight boxer on the planet) on June 6.
[U][B]Pacquiao Top 5 Greatest Fights. [/B][/U]
1. Manny Pacquiao defeated Prime Marco Antonio Barrera back in 2003 for the Ring Magazine Featherweight title. He won via 10th round TKO.
2. Manny Pacquiao winning his first world title after he defeated one of the greatest Flyweights of all time in Chachai Sasakul.
3. Manny Pacquiao defeated Prime Miguel Cotto for the WBA World Welterweight title.
4. Manny Pacquiao avenged his first defeat against Eric Morales. He won via 10th round TKO in their 2nd fight.
5. Manny Pacquiao Draw against Juan Manuel Marquez in their first fight. Pacquiao should have won in this fight, but one of the judges made an error on their scorecards.
[quote]One of the judges (who scored the bout 113
[img]http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/nike-manny-pacquiao-boots.jpg[/img]
[img]http://f5torefresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/manny-pacquiao-x-nike-trainer-1.3-f5-560x373.jpg[/img]
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UqUwVPikChs/TONhcUFNnaI/AAAAAAAAPlQ/u3lgRGjNpdI/s1600/Nike-Trainer-1.2-Low-Limited-Edition-Manny-Pacquiao-%2BMens-Training-Shoes-Price-Philippines.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Lebron23][img]http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/nike-manny-pacquiao-boots.jpg[/img]
[img]http://f5torefresh.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/manny-pacquiao-x-nike-trainer-1.3-f5-560x373.jpg[/img]
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UqUwVPikChs/TONhcUFNnaI/AAAAAAAAPlQ/u3lgRGjNpdI/s1600/Nike-Trainer-1.2-Low-Limited-Edition-Manny-Pacquiao-%2BMens-Training-Shoes-Price-Philippines.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
those look fire