Paul Pierce is a top 5 Celtic all-time

[QUOTE=crosso√er]McHale is easily better then Pierce; greatest low post scorer in league history should be ranked over a prototypical All-Star who won't leave any sort of legacy behind. The Messiah was known for a niche, his low post scoring and incredible foot work; how many players scored 27 PPG on over 60 FG%? Sure he doesn't have a similar longevity of Pierce, but his peek demolishes anything Pierce has ever done at his peak. :facepalm

Russell, Bird, Hondo, Cousey and McHale are players that should and will be remembered as better Celtic players (in comparison to Pierce).

All of those players are in the top 50; you honestly think Pierce will one day be elected on that list? Please, most overrated player perhaps I have ever witnessed in my life.

Heck is he even better then Robert Parish? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I agree with most of your most. I would also include a forgotten for many Dvae Cowens. But its hard for me to take this post serious when you say Pierce is the most overrated player yoou have witnessed. YEt in the same post you say Kevin Mchale is the "Greatest low post scorer" in history. Was Kareem shooting jumpers. I don't recall Hakeem's midrange game as the reason many call him a TOp 5 C. There was another great Moses besides the one in the bible.You must be too young to have seen Elvin,Wilt and if thats the case you had to have seen Tim Duncan. Mchale is really a Jack Sikma that played on a Great team. That being said I still take him over PP.

[QUOTE=Hondo]I've seen them all in person, except Russell and Cousy era players.

My top 5 would be:
Bill Russell - for the championships and the overall excellence.

Larry Bird - I have never seen a player with so many all around skills. Bird was amazing at every aspect of the game, even on defense. He would frustrate the life out of other players. If he was playing today, he would foul out in a half. Very physical guy.

John Havlicek - amazing, amazing player. No doubt he's my favorite player ever. One of the best perimeter defenders I have seen in person, and a heady scorer. Was the bridging player for the Celtics.

Paul Pierce - He hasn't started to decline yet. He has one of the longest peak I have seen. His physical abilities have slowly diminished, but he has become an amazing shot creator off pump fakes and jam steps. He has become an excellent set shooter, and is still a top 3 finisher in the NBA. His defense also improves every year. (Wow, I feel like a homer)

Dave Cowens - McHale's body of work is too small and Bob Cousy didn't have the influence that Cowens had. He was a legit MVP.[/QUOTE]


Cousy didn't have the influence ? Paul Pierce has never been considered a TOp 5 player in the league. For the most part he has never really been a Top 10. Cousy after Milkan was considered as one of the best at the very least a top 3.Cousy true or not is considered the first great PG.IT can go on .
I would also rank Jo JO White even with PP.

[QUOTE=Lebron23]Hondo was still putting up good all around numbers in the 1970's.[/QUOTE]


Forgot about that. Good point.

[QUOTE=Niquesports]I agree with most of your most. I would also include a forgotten for many Dvae Cowens. But its hard for me to take this post serious when you say Pierce is the most overrated player yoou have witnessed. YEt in the same post you say Kevin Mchale is the "Greatest low post scorer" in history. Was Kareem shooting jumpers. I don't recall Hakeem's midrange game as the reason many call him a TOp 5 C. There was another great Moses besides the one in the bible.You must be too young to have seen Elvin,Wilt and if thats the case you had to have seen Tim Duncan. Mchale is really a Jack Sikma that played on a Great team. That being said I still take him over PP.[/QUOTE]

Parish, S.Jones, Cowens and so forth are irrelevant because those five players are sufficient enough to make my rebuttal. I honestly don't understand why people are infatuated with Pierce; he was off the map completely this past decade until 2008. An All-Star caliber player who didn't sniff the playoffs for half a decade it seems.

Now he has two future HOF'ers and people in this very thread; claiming he could end up being a top five Celtic, dethroning one of those legends? Those same legends that BUILT Celtic history, really?!
I'm not too young; people in this thread clearly are.

McHale had arguably the most [B]effective[/B] low-post game in league history, at his [B]peak.[/B] Go do some studying kid; you can't take me serious because you named a bunch of legends who were also great low post scorers as some sort of validity in discrediting my point?

McHale had some of the greatest low-post moves I have ever seen and he was a hell of a lot more efficient then Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon in the paint.

[QUOTE=crosso√er]Parish, S.Jones, Cowens and so forth are irrelevant because those five players are sufficient enough to make my rebuttal. I honestly don't understand why people are infatuated with Pierce; he was off the map completely this past decade until 2008. An All-Star caliber player who didn't sniff the playoffs for half a decade it seems.

Now he has two future HOF'ers and people in this very thread; claiming he could end up being a top five Celtic, dethroning one of those legends? Those same legends that BUILT Celtic history, really?!
I'm not too young; people in this thread clearly are.

McHale had arguably the most [B]effective[/B] low-post game in league history, at his [B]peak.[/B] Go do some studying kid; you can't take me serious because you named a bunch of legends who were also great low post scorers as some sort of validity in discrediting my point?

McHale had some of the greatest low-post moves I have ever seen and he was a hell of a lot more efficient then Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon in the paint.[/QUOTE]


McHale=GOAT post moves.

Through him I learned every move needs a counter-move to confuse a defender or make him pause for a second.

#1 russell 11 rings
#2 bird 3 rings
#3 cousy 6 rings, 10 first team all nba's
#4 Havlicek 8 rings, 4 1st teams, 5 all defensive 1st teams
#5 Mchale 3 rings, 7 time allstar, 6 all defensive teams, all nba 1st team

#6 pierce 1 ring, 0 all nba 1st teams, 0 defensive teams, 0 allstar starts

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]#1 russell 11 rings
#2 bird 3 rings
#3 cousy 6 rings, 10 first team all nba's
#4 Havlicek 8 rings, 4 1st teams, 5 all defensive 1st teams
#5 Mchale 3 rings, 7 time allstar, 6 all defensive teams, all nba 1st team

#6 pierce 1 ring, 0 all nba 1st teams, 0 defensive teams, 0 allstar starts[/QUOTE]

modern day rings are more valluable

[QUOTE=DUP]modern day rings are more valluable[/QUOTE]
:wtf:

[QUOTE=DUP]modern day rings are more valluable[/QUOTE]

i know they are... i would say 1 ring today is worth 3 rings from the 60's

like russells 11 championships is more like 4 rings in todays game


so still

#1 russell - 4 legit rings
#2 bird - 3 rings
#3 cousy 2 legit rings
#4 havlicek 3 legit rings
#5 mchale 3 rings

#6 pierce 1 ring

[QUOTE=DUP]modern day rings are more valluable[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they're made in a tougher ERA physically.

[QUOTE=catch24]Yeah, they're made in a tougher ERA physically.[/QUOTE]

i actually agree with the adjustment for rings in eras

kobes 5 in a modern day era are slightly more impressive than russells collection of 11 crap rings in a 6-8 team league against guys who had to look at the ball when dribbling

[QUOTE=DUP]modern day rings are more valluable[/QUOTE]

Huh? :confusedshrug:

Anyway, to the people talking about McHale as a top 5 Celtic, you have got to be kidding me. If we are voting on a player's peak, then sure. But you need to remember McHale did not play at a high level his whole career. I have to give it to Pierce for how solid he has been during his whole career. I guess part of me wants a Celtic from each era on the team, and I believe Pierce embodies everything the Celtics are about.

Pierce is one of the best clutch performers I have ever seen. I watched Michael at the garden numerous times, I was privileged enough to have watched Reggie Miller play in New York (on TV), and I have seen Magic in person. Paul Pierce is right up there with those guys in terms of making daggers. I don't know how many times I have watched Paul make a huge shot to put another team away.
(Don't come in here mentioning Robert Horry. Just stop).

Cousy did change the way the game was played but he was not on the level of Paul Pierce. Sure, Paul has never been a top 3 player in the NBA. But he has consistently been one of the most reliable superstars. Yo udon't agree? Have a look:
Season-----PER
1998-99----19.2
1999-00----19.8
2000-01----22.3
2001-02----22.3
2002-03----22.7
2003-04----19.4
2004-05----21.8
2005-06----23.6
2006-07----21.7
2007-08----19.6
2008-09----17.7
2009-10----18.2
2010-11----20.5

Pierce's per 48 minute PER is 21.1 (in 2010-11) compared to the players he has been matched up against at 10.1 (that's far less than the league average).

Stat-----------------------------ON Court---------OFF Court-------Net
Net Points per 100 Possessions-----+12.4------------ -3.6----------+16.0

Pierce is the BEST player on the Celtics. He has never had adequate pieces around him until the big 3 came along. Before that, his best team was Antoine Walker, Kenny Anderson and spare parts. For the longest time Boston was assembling a team of washed up stars, and mid first round picks. Not exactly a pattern for becoming a winning team. People don't bash Tracy McGrady this much. You can't tell me Pierce has had more talented teams than McGrady.

I can agree with people who say McHale could be ranked over Pierce, and I can see the logic behind someone claiming Jo Jo White* could be ranked over Pierce, but I fail to see how players like Cousy, Jones and Parish get mentions over him.

For the record, I would rank Jo Jo above McHale, too.

[QUOTE=PurpleChuck]:wtf:[/QUOTE]
what? this era is tougher for sure

[QUOTE=Hondo]Huh? :confusedshrug:

[/QUOTE]


lets be realistic. if rings from the 60's were worth anywhere near what they are today... bill russell would be run away GOAT

russells 11 = about 4-5 today... i dont know why your shaking your shoulders

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]i actually agree with the adjustment for rings in eras

kobes 5 in a modern day era are slightly more impressive than russells collection of 11 crap rings in a 6-8 team league against guys who had to look at the ball when dribbling[/QUOTE]

I haven't neg repped anyone......... yet.


How do you rank Hondo's rings? He won in the 'weak' era, and also won in the mi 70's?

Kobe's era seems more watered down to me. I'd like to see him in the 80's or 90's . He would have been beaten down by teams like the Knicks and torched by guys like Jordan, Drexler, Richmond, English, Dantley, King and Miller.

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]lets be realistic. if rings from the 60's were worth anywhere near what they are today... bill russell would be run away GOAT

russells 11 = about 4-5 today... i dont know why your shaking your shoulders[/QUOTE]

yeah, not sure why everyone was so shocked at my statement

[QUOTE=DUP]yeah, not sure why everyone was so shocked at my statement[/QUOTE]

NWA's music is not worth the fanfare. Selling 2,000,000 records in 1988 is like selling 10,000 today. That's using your logic.

[QUOTE=Hondo]NWA's music is not worth the fanfare. Selling 2,000,000 records in 1988 is like selling 10,000 today. That's using your logic.[/QUOTE]
that is nothing like it at all....

[QUOTE=Duranthebest]True story.[/QUOTE]

I love Paul Pierce too but you be on his d[COLOR="Black"]i[/COLOR]ck too much

[QUOTE=Hondo]I haven't neg repped anyone......... yet.


How do you rank Hondo's rings? He won in the 'weak' era, and also won in the mi 70's?

Kobe's era seems more watered down to me. I'd like to see him in the 80's or 90's . He would have been beaten down by teams like the Knicks and torched by guys like Jordan, Drexler, Richmond, English, Dantley, King and Miller.[/QUOTE]


yea your right kobes garbage.

hondo's rings in the era where off hand dribbling was non existent were more impressive. where players shot under hand free throws and didnt know what a cross over was yet and 90% of the league couldnt dunk... yea sure

and yea kobe wouldnt be tough enough to body up with players from the 80's

hes got it easy playing against muscular tall wing players like lebron, wade.

no way he could be physical enough to deal with the fat gut having, no muscular definition players of the 80's



no way would a guy from an era with average scores of 100 points could go back to in time to the 80's pace of 115-120ppg and possibly score as many ppg as they can today


no way could a guy like kobe dominate without being a bruiser, pound it in player. kobes style would never work back in the 80's

oh no

wait .... didnt michael jordan play in the 80's

At first I was shocked at the statement, but really, 60's and 70's basketball is not worth that much now. I could out-trick Wilt Chamberlain. Of course, it would be DIFFERENT if I was actually born in that era. Remember how some videogames were really life-changing when you were a kid, but is just a bunch of pixels now? Cosmo Cosmic Adventure, Commander Keen, Wolfenstein, and that ****ing moment you played Quake 2, those were giants of their time. Now, it's different.

Let's assume players of any era gave everything they've got.

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]yea your right kobes garbage.

hondo's rings in the era where off hand dribbling was non existent were more impressive. where players shot under hand free throws and didnt know what a cross over was yet and 90% of the league couldnt dunk... yea sure

and yea kobe wouldnt be tough enough to body up with players from the 80's

hes got it easy playing against muscular tall wing players like lebron, wade.

no way he could be physical enough to deal with the fat gut having, no muscular definition players of the 80's



no way would a guy from an era with average scores of 100 points could go back to in time to the 80's pace of 115-120ppg and possibly score as many ppg as they can today


no way could a guy like kobe dominate without being a bruiser, pound it in player. kobes style would never work back in the 80's

oh no

wait .... didnt michael jordan play in the 80's[/QUOTE]

rep

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]
wait .... didnt michael jordan play in the 80's[/QUOTE]

Your argument fails right here. Jordan and Kobe are different players. And Jordan couldn't win in the 80's. It was too stacked for him to win. Kobe's teams might not have even been playoff teams. I can't see Kobe averaging 50% shooting from the field against the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons, the 76ers, Celtics and Knicks.

Your argument is terrible, it doesn't deserve a rebuttal, and you may be the first troll I have encountered. If this was Hero Quest, I might be more excited about meeting a troll.

[QUOTE=Hondo]Your argument fails right here. Jordan and Kobe are different players. And Jordan couldn't win in the 80's. It was too stacked for him to win. Kobe's teams might not have even been playoff teams. I can't see Kobe averaging 50% shooting from the field against the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons, the 76ers, Celtics and Knicks.

Your argument is terrible, it doesn't deserve a rebuttal, and you may be the first troll I have encountered. If this was Hero Quest, I might be more excited about meeting a troll.[/QUOTE]


so your saying... the 6 foot 6 guy

the guy who plays SG under coach phil jackson

who is about to 3 peat for the 2nd time

who coppied all of jordans moves

the guy who can do and does do everything a person can think of on the basketball court.

the man who has a 3 pointer, post moves, fadaways, pull ups, finishes inside, uses off hands as well has his good hands

and has always been the most compared with michael jordan throughout his career

is.... in your mind......... nothing like michael jordan

jordan could average 37ppg in the 80s

but kobe wouldnt crack 20

this is what your saying
?

i hope to god i dont end up like that hondo guy

in 40 years when players are dunking from 2 feet behind the free throw line in games. draining three pointers at a 60% clip and 5 players on each team are built like lebron with the skills of kobe x 5... i hope to god im not sitting on a forum holding onto some scraps from my out of date era hoping people will think my kobe could compete in that new era and no one in that new era could compete in kobes

if i do.... i pray someone kills me

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]i hope to god i dont end up like that hondo guy

in 40 years when players are dunking from 2 feet behind the free throw line in games. draining three pointers at a 60% clip and 5 players on each team are built like lebron with the skills of kobe x 5... i hope to god im not sitting on a forum holding onto some scraps from my out of date era hoping people will think my kobe could compete in that new era and no one in that new era could compete in kobes

if i do.... i pray someone kills me[/QUOTE]

If Kobe played in the 80's he'd of copied different players and not copied a guy thats hadn't really played yet.... Kobe says his game was built on copying players so if the people back then only dribbled with one hand and didn't crossover, wouldnt it make sense that he would do the same?

Kevin Garnett is also a Celtic - just thought I'd drop in and point that out.

I think most Boston Celtics fans are seriously underestimating Raef LaFrentz. I mean, 7 three pointers in a half? LaFrentz baby!

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]so your saying... the 6 foot 6 guy

the guy who plays SG under coach phil jackson

who is about to 3 peat for the 2nd time

who coppied all of jordans moves

the guy who can do and does do everything a person can think of on the basketball court.

[B]the man who has a 3 pointer[/B], post moves, fadaways, pull ups, finishes inside, uses off hands as well has his good hands

and has always been the most compared with michael jordan throughout his career

is.... in your mind......... nothing like michael jordan

jordan could average 37ppg in the 80s

but kobe wouldnt crack 20

this is what your saying
?[/QUOTE]

[img]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205855[/img]

[QUOTE=crosso√er]Parish, S.Jones, Cowens and so forth are irrelevant because those five players are sufficient enough to make my rebuttal. I honestly don't understand why people are infatuated with Pierce; he was off the map completely this past decade until 2008. An All-Star caliber player who didn't sniff the playoffs for half a decade it seems.

Now he has two future HOF'ers and people in this very thread; claiming he could end up being a top five Celtic, dethroning one of those legends? Those same legends that BUILT Celtic history, really?!
I'm not too young; people in this thread clearly are.

McHale had arguably the most [B]effective[/B] low-post game in league history, at his [B]peak.[/B] Go do some studying kid; you can't take me serious because you named a bunch of legends who were also great low post scorers as some sort of validity in discrediting my point?

McHale had some of the greatest low-post moves I have ever seen and he was a hell of a lot more efficient then Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon in the paint.[/QUOTE]
You can have[B] "efficient"[/B] give me BETTER ........... Mchale isnt even in the convo in terms of Post moves with Hakeem,Duncan,hayes or Kareem and I could name more.Again mchale was a Jack Sickma on a Great team.

[QUOTE=MMM]Hondo is in my top 5 but my all time starting line up i think he is a better fit off the bench if that makes sense,, lol

Russell
Bird
Hondo
Cousy
Pierce
McHale[/QUOTE]

How can you guys not putting Red up there??

Red
Russell
Bird
Hondo
Cousy
McHale/Parish
Pierce

If Pierce gets one more ring, I will move him ahead of McHale and Parish.

[QUOTE=Hondo]Your argument fails right here. Jordan and Kobe are different players. And Jordan couldn't win in the 80's. It was too stacked for him to win. Kobe's teams might not have even been playoff teams. I can't see Kobe averaging 50% shooting from the field against the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons, the 76ers, Celtics and Knicks.

Your argument is terrible, it doesn't deserve a rebuttal, and you may be the first troll I have encountered. If this was Hero Quest, I might be more excited about meeting a troll.[/QUOTE]


:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol: kobe could not even shoot 50 % in last year's finals. the 70s celtics could beat most teams in last years play-offs with dave cowens just simply out hustling everybody and trying harder.

[QUOTE=JohnnySic]Kevin Garnett is also a Celtic - just thought I'd drop in and point that out.[/QUOTE]

What's your point?

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]i hope to god i dont end up like that hondo guy

[B]in 40 years when players are dunking from 2 feet behind the free throw line in games. draining three pointers at a 60% clip and 5 players on each team are built like lebron with the skills of kobe x 5...[/B] i hope to god im not sitting on a forum holding onto some scraps from my out of date era hoping people will think my kobe could compete in that new era and no one in that new era could compete in kobes

if i do.... i pray someone kills me[/QUOTE]

These fantasies are not going to happen, unless the whole human race is going to be genetically modified. There will never be 5 guys with the skill of Kobe on each team, because being skilled at something is largely based on genetics, and humans are not exactly like microbes, which reproduce so often that they can become genetically superior within a short time. Kobe, along with a few others (and yes, these "others" include players from the 60's and 70's, because talent existed even when you weren't there to see), is at the top of the skill pyramid, and that's not going to change, unless we develop some alien type of technology (and this would probably irritate many of you or your children/grandchildren, who would be probably be put into reproducing restrictions or even bans).
60% shooting from the 3 point land? Maybe some day someone who manages to barely qualify will pull it off for a season. Multiple players? Nope. Much like FT shooting, which, in more than half a century, has barely gone up, there is not much that indicates that 3-point shooting will, either.

The "Russell's 11 championships = Kobe's 5" crap, apart from ignoring the fact that Russell was almost always the Celtics' Finals' MVP, while Kobe not nearly so much, doesn't explain why before Russell there had only been one dynasty (and considerably smaller), why the increase of teams during his own era had no effect on his championship winning, despite the fact that he and his team were getting older and more fragile and why, immediately after he retired, there was no other repeat for almost 20 years, including the supposedly weak 70's. Ironically, after '86, there have been a total of 7 repeats and three-peats, within less than 25 years, including 5 repeats/three-pits in a row. I guess this must be the equivalent of having 5 consecutive 5-7 championship teams in Russell's era. :rolleyes:

Morons ruined this thread.

I'll return after the playoffs if Pierce is victorious.

[QUOTE=Hondo]Morons ruined this thread.

I'll return after the playoffs if Pierce is victorious.[/QUOTE]


ahhhh stick a cork in it grandpa

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]i actually agree with the adjustment for rings in eras

kobes 5 in a modern day era are slightly more impressive than russells collection of 11 crap rings in a 6-8 team league against guys who had to look at the ball when dribbling[/QUOTE]


Well when Russ was playing played didn't get to carry the ball and get 3 and sometimes 4 steps. Oh yea if you put your hand on them its a foul. How easy is that.

[QUOTE=griffmoney1784]i hope to god i dont end up like that hondo guy

in 40 years when players are dunking from 2 feet behind the free throw line in games. draining three pointers at a 60% clip and 5 players on each team are built like lebron with the skills of kobe x 5... i hope to god im not sitting on a forum holding onto some scraps from my out of date era hoping people will think my kobe could compete in that new era and no one in that new era could compete in kobes

if i do.... i pray someone kills me[/QUOTE]


No what you will be saying when you see that 7'3 built like a roman god player shooting 3pt. why doesn't he have any post moves. Why is his block shots pg so low. Oh D Howard would kill him in the post. As big as this guy from 2030 is he can't defend in the post . Thats what you will be saying. Like us older guys are saying now why is a 6'8 250lb Lebron shooting more 3's than posting up.WHy is there really only about 5 true post C in the game with 32 teams.Get the idea youg fella.

[QUOTE=MMM]Pierce ranks anywhere from 5-8. What bodes well for him is that he is in the top 5 in many of the statistical categories but obviously in Boston players are rated via Championships. So another ring could really help ensure his legacy currently I think I would have him in the all time Celtics starting line up though that doesn't necessarily make you a top 5 Celtic.

Russell
McHale
Bird
Pierce
Cousy

Bench
Cowens
Heinsohn
Hondo
Jones
DJ
Garnett
Jo Jo White[/QUOTE]

Hondo and Pierce are virtually interchangable, and I'm thinking reputation leans with Hondo a bit more.

[QUOTE=BlueandGold]Hondo and Pierce are virtually interchangable, and I'm thinking reputation leans with Hondo a bit more.[/QUOTE]
Hondo never had to be carried to the locker room because he broke a nail.
Hondo never needed a teammate to yell at him it game time pick it up like diva PP
Hondo was never called by many a care free player. Here is a question is PP really better than Vince Carter ? Or are they the same player. has anyone ever seen the two in the same room at the same time ?