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[QUOTE=Premeditated]Payton is extremely underrated. Good lockdown defender. He completely tormented Jordan during the 96 Finals. lol @ getting lock down by a point guard.[/QUOTE]
that is exaggerated crap.
he did a good job, but jordan still outplayed him, just not as bad as other opponents.
[QUOTE=Teanett]that is exaggerated crap.
he did a good job, but jordan still outplayed him, just not as bad as other opponents.[/QUOTE]
i'm too lazy to look at the boxscores but i think Payton outplayed MJ in game 4 when when he asked Karl to defend MJ and in game 6 where MJ was off the entire game.
I thought he gave us more problem than Penny did personally.
[QUOTE=Force]
Also GP was very vocal on the court. Great leadership. He was always talking on both ends of the court.[/QUOTE]
Gary was also a vocal leader in the locker room as evidenced by this motivational speech: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYpB6J5-fm8[/url]
[QUOTE=Bigsmoke]i'm too lazy to look at the boxscored but i think Payton outplayed MJ in game 4 when when he asked Karl to defend MJ and in game 6 where MJ was off the entire game.
I thought he gave us more problem than Penny did personally.[/QUOTE]
game 4
[I]MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Michael Jordan 41 6 19 .316 0 2 .000 11 13 .846 1 2 3 2 1 0 4 3 23
Gary Payton 44 7 15 .467 3 6 .500 4 6 .667 0 3 3 11 2 0 2 4 21
game 6
MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Gary Payton 47 7 10 .700 3 5 .600 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 7 2 0 5 3 19
Michael Jordan 43 5 19 .263 1 3 .333 11 12 .917 3 6 9 7 2 0 5 3 22[/I]
you can say he outplayed him in game 4, but jordan still got to the line and produced, and the bulls were already up 3-0.
payton played jordan as well as anyone but contrary to the myth, jordan still dominated the series and the match up with payton.
I'm curious to why some posters feel a player is underrated if that player isnt mentioned recently. Especially a player from another era? Is Kevin Johnson insanely underrated? Dennis Johnson? John Stockton? Especially John, when was the last time this guy was typed out in a post here? Heck I dont even see anyone comparing him to a younger player.
There was a thread on here which ranked the top PGs of all time. Most agreed with how the Pgs ranked. Including GP. I'm just saying. Posters today will talk about Bron, Pierce, Melo but it doesnt mean Dr J is underrated because no one mentions him. Shaq will be mentioned as a great big men in NBA history, it doesnt mean Moses Malone is insanely underrated because he's rarely mentioned.
No, he's really not under rated, and his impact wasn't near as great as most other all time great point guards. In fact I'd take Rose, Deron and CP3 over him in his peak, no questions asked. For the amount the guy needed the ball he produced very little on offense, was inconsistent, and shot a frustrating amount of 3 pointers for how average a shooter he was. He wasn't very good at getting his team mates involved, and he really clashed with pretty much all his coaches, and didn't get along with quite a few of his team mates.
He had the defense to make up for his rather mediocre offense, and he is probably a top 5-10 all time point guard, but he's not under rated, and he's not really comparable to the guys that he is often times compared to. Like Kidd, or Nash.
[QUOTE=Teanett]game 4
[I]MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Michael Jordan 41 6 19 .316 0 2 .000 11 13 .846 1 2 3 2 1 0 4 3 23
Gary Payton 44 7 15 .467 3 6 .500 4 6 .667 0 3 3 11 2 0 2 4 21
game 6
MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
Gary Payton 47 7 10 .700 3 5 .600 2 2 1.000 0 4 4 7 2 0 5 3 19
Michael Jordan 43 5 19 .263 1 3 .333 11 12 .917 3 6 9 7 2 0 5 3 22[/I]
you can say he outplayed him in game 4, but jordan still got to the line and produced, and the bulls were already up 3-0.
payton played jordan as well as anyone but contrary to the myth, jordan still dominated the series and the match up with payton.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.
Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.
Then he met the [B]1996 DPOY Gary Payton[/B].
George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender
[B]Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg[/B]
Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.
His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating. But yes, Karl probably regret not putting Payton on Jordan from the start. Here is what NBA analyst Walton had to say about that
[B][I]Seattle coach George Karl would "rue" the decision to "hide [Payton] from 'the king'" in the early games of the series[/I][/B]
In fact, later on Harper got injured and Jordan had to guard Payton as well. And honestly, Payton outplayed him in their head to head matchups.
Bill Walton himself said
[B][I]
Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series[/I][/B]
-Bill Walton
Quite an accomplishment to outplay the GOAT in his prime in the NBA Finals head to head
:applause:
[QUOTE=GP_20]I wouldn't quite agree he dominated the series.
Coming into the Finals, Jordan was averaging 36.3ppg, and had scored 30 or more points, 14 out of 17 games. Really amazing and what you expect from the GOAT in the biggest stage of the game. That's what you call dominating.
Then he met the [B]1996 DPOY Gary Payton[/B].
George Karl started the series out by playing Payton on Pippen, and throwing many double teams on Jordan. Jordan did pretty good against that, averaged 29ppg on 45%. Mid-way Game 3 Karl finally switched Payton to guard Jordan. For the rest of the series, Jordan was neutralized. Here were his #s for the rest of the series with Payton as the primary defender
[B]Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg[/B]
Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.
His overall series numbers aren't much more impressive, and either way, I wouldn't call any of that dominating.[/QUOTE]
You are back?
NO!
NO!
NO!
NO!
Oh well, it's no surprise to see your word is completely worthless.
[QUOTE=LJJ]
Oh well, it's no surprise to see your word is completely worthless.[/QUOTE]
You mean my word in saying I am gone forever?
Well I said I'd comeback to defend Payton. Nothing more nothing less.
[QUOTE=Teanett]and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.[/QUOTE]
This is a ridiculous statement. How do you measure defensive impact? How about how good your team plays defense?
The Sonics in 1996 were[B] ranked #2[/B] in the league in defense, behind the Bulls who had Jordan/Pippen/Rodman all in their primes. All 3 made All-D 1st. Payton had no one teammate on All-Defensive team members, yet he anchored Seattle to be the 2nd best defense in the league. Furthermore, they were #1 in TOs. Karl gets some credit too, but Payton was the defensive anchor of that Sonics team.
Hakeem, Mutombo, if their "defense" made more impact in 96 I'd expect their teams to have played better defense than Payton's Sonics. This just was not the case.
And Pippen had Jordan/Rodman, it becomes MUCH easier to play defense when you have such great defensive teammates.
I think anchor of the 2nd best defense in the league, #1 in steals playing tremendous team defense, and some exceptional 1on1 defense, Payton was well worthy of the 1996 DPOY. No other player had the team defense and individual defense resum
[QUOTE=GP_20]imary defender
[B]Games 3-6 (Payton primary defender)
33/83 39.8% 25.8ppg 4.8rpg 3.8apg 3.5tpg[/B]
Honestly, that's what you call dominating? He was averaging almost as many TOs as assists and was inefficient from the field.
[/QUOTE]
i don't know about you but to me and most people
[B]26 ppg is still dominating.[/B]
it's not up to jordan's standards but far from being neutralized.
if a player scores 26 on you, it's still an ass-whoopin', now it's not as bad as
he whooped john starks, but it's still an ass-whoopin'.
just because jordan whooped his ass doesn't mean it's not an ass-whoopin'.
imagine jerry stackhouse layin' 26 on the glove. what would the reaction be like? [I]payton is stackhouse's biaatch![/I]
[QUOTE=Fatal9]Not better than Nash. Only playoff series I'd take him over Nash is if there is some all-star PG matchup (even then it's a tough call), but otherwise it's Nash.
Generally not a fan of PGs who need to hold the ball as long as GP did to score (iso on postups, get in the paint etc), especially when you couple that with his inconsistent shot and overall inefficiency (52-54 TS%). PGs impact the game WAY more offensively than defensively (Magic says hi, same with Isiah). Look at what happened to the Sonics defensive rating after Kemp/Karl left, they were an average to below average team defensively. This is not centers we're discussing, who can come in and have a huge impact on the teams defense, this is PGs. Now look at the impact Nash has on his teams offensively, which have some of the best offensive ratings relative to league in history (and even with the poor cast he is given now, they are still top 5 in offense). Primary job of my PG is to run plays, create easy shots for everyone, stretch the floor with shooting, take over scoring wise (efficiently) when necessary and Nash blows GP out of the water with this. Nash's offensive impact on the average night is way more game changing and important than GP's defensive impact (overrated as fukk). GP is literally worse at everything other than holding the ball, posting up his guy and scoring that way. Never dominated a series on offense like Nash did against Spurs in '07 or Mavs in '05.
He's in my top 5 PGs, but quit overrating the dude. Funny though that the guy you're setting out to trash is probably the most underrated PG of all time. People think his defense hurts the team way more than it does, and even then when you look at opposing PG's production against him, it's not even bad. Not like TP or any PG he faced in the '04-'07 stretch torched him.[/QUOTE]
Do you have no respect for defense at all?
You are missing that Nash is a defensive liability. The Suns have to make a game plan around Nash considering that any opposing star PG is going to go abuse him. I've seen it too many times. I remember the series against the Suns, the Spurs game plan was to have Parker go after Nash. And the Suns had to counter that with giving help defense for Nash. It's things like this, 40 minutes a game, that add up and really make a difference.
1st of all even the 1st year after Kemp left the Sonic's were a Top 10 team defensively. By the time Karl left Payton had lost a step or 2 on defense, but Payton and Karl's defensive scheme styles really helped each other. I mean, even Karl didnt' have as much defensive success with Milwaukee or Denver. And with Payton anchoring Seattle's defense, they were one of the top defenses over the decade. In 1996 they were #2 in defense, as good as any dominant Center led defense should be.
Right? At the end of the day it's about stopping the opposing team from scoring. And a Payton anchored defense did as good as Hakeem/Mutombo/Robinson led defenses did.
Thus, the impact was there. When you have a PG like Payton who terrorizes the opposing team's PG, the whole offensive flow is then affected and your team struggles on offense. That's what made Payton' defense so valuable.
I'd rather have Payton's 25/10 series with 40 minutes of hard defense rather than Nash's 30/12 with him being a defensive liability for 40 minutes any day. And so would most. I mean, I wonder how much better Payton could've played offense if he didn't waste all his energy on defense. He played his heart out on defense and offense. And if you've played any sport, you know how much your stamina/energy on offense and defense matters for you to play them better. It's actually quite amazing what he was able to do 40 mintues a night.
[QUOTE=Teanett]i don't know about you but to me and most people
[B]26 ppg is still dominating.[/B]
it's not up to jordan's standards but far from being neutralized.
if a player scores 26 on you, it's still an ass-whoopin', now it's not as bad as
he whooped john starks, but it's still an ass-whoopin'.
just because jordan whooped his ass doesn't mean it's not an ass-whoopin'.
imagine jerry stackhouse layin' 26 on the glove. what would the reaction be like? [I]payton is stackhouse's biaatch![/I][/QUOTE]
:roll:
Are you for real? So 26ppg on 39% with not doing much of else (less than 5reb and ast as many as Tos) is dominating? :oldlol:
[QUOTE=magnax1]No, he's really not under rated, and his impact wasn't near as great as most other all time great point guards. In fact I'd take Rose, Deron and CP3 over him in his peak, no questions asked. For the amount the guy needed the ball he produced very little on offense, was inconsistent, and shot a frustrating amount of 3 pointers for how average a shooter he was. He wasn't very good at getting his team mates involved, and he really clashed with pretty much all his coaches, and didn't get along with quite a few of his team mates.
He had the defense to make up for his rather mediocre offense, and he is probably a top 5-10 all time point guard, but he's not under rated, and he's not really comparable to the guys that he is often times compared to. Like Kidd, or Nash.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Sorry I'm not good at directing sarcasm
[QUOTE=GP_20]This is a ridiculous statement. How do you measure defensive impact? How about how good your team plays defense?
[/QUOTE]
i said "i believe". it's my opinion.
who led the league in steals during the play-offs?
bulls played better defense than the sonics.
so twist it how you like it.
you like payton that year, i like pippen, even knowing that big men have more impact on defense so it really should have been robinson, hakeem or motumbo.
[QUOTE=GP_20]:roll:
Are you for real? So 26ppg on 39% with not doing much of else (less than 5reb and ast as many as Tos) is dominating? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
yes, because the bulls won.
[QUOTE=keep-itreal]What was Gary Payton offense like ? Was he a good shooter,(mid-range, 3pt) or was he a slasher like d-rose?[/QUOTE]
He could do it all. He is a Top 3 Post PG of All-Time. At 6'4, excellent in the post and could score at will. Had many moves in the post and his size enabled him to be very good at scoring down low.
Then he was also called the "Lay-Up" king. Not that great at drawing contact and getting to the line, but just was an excellent driver and finisher. In fact, when Payton went to drive I was most confident that he would score. Excellent finisher and had a great 1st step.
Then he could shoot as well. He's not a Steve Nash or something, but still a good shooter. He led the leagues in 3s one year, and had a pretty reliable mid-range jump shot as well. Struggled with it early in his career but became a good jump shooter later on.
So there's not one thing Payton couldn't do on offense. Multiple ways of scoring making it hard for any one guarding him.
[QUOTE=GP_20]:roll:
Sorry I'm not good at directing sarcasm[/QUOTE]
Exactly what out of that is even arguable? He's definitely not a top 5 pg compared to Stockton, Magic, Oscar, Cousy and Isiah. He definitely isn't near as good on offense as other all time great PGs. He never got along with team mates or coaches. The only thing that is arguable is Nash and Kidd.
I'm sorry, I forgot how you over simplify things and ignore reality to prop up your favorite player.
[QUOTE=Teanett]i said "i believe". it's my opinion.
who led the league in steals during the play-offs?
bulls played better defense than the sonics.
so twist it how you like it.
you like payton that year, i like pippen, even knowing that big men have more impact on defense so it really should have been robinson, hakeem or motumbo.[/QUOTE]
The Bulls had Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman in their primes. I hope they played better defense than Payton's defensive team. And even then the difference was just #1 and #2. Also, it helps a lot to have great defenders aroudn you. Payton never got that luxury.
Once again, you say all those centers had more defensive impact in 96. Then why did their team defenses play worse? Payton didn't have a Rodman or Jordan helping him either. Or any other All-Defensive team member. He had as much help as say Dikembe did. Yet Payton's team played better defense.
And this is just team defense, which should be a Center's main advantage over a guard. Yet Payton overcomes this by leading his defenses to status better than any center in the league. Then when you go down to individual defense, I guarantee you Payton guarded his player individually better than anyone in the league.
[QUOTE=magnax1]Exactly what out of that is even arguable? He's definitely not a top 5 pg compared to Stockton, Magic, Oscar, Cousy and Isiah. He definitely isn't near as good on offense as other all time great PGs. He never got along with team mates or coaches. The only thing that is arguable is Nash and Kidd.
I'm sorry, I forgot how you over simplify things and ignore reality to prop up your favorite player.[/QUOTE]
Career-wise he might arguably be below them. But prime wise, he is a Top 3 PG All-Time.
[QUOTE=Teanett]yes, because the bulls won.[/QUOTE]
They went 2-2 in the stretch GP was primary defender on Jordan
[QUOTE=GP_20]The Bulls had Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman in their primes. I hope they played better defense than Payton's defensive team. And even then the difference was just #1 and #2. Also, it helps a lot to have great defenders aroudn you. Payton never got that luxury.
Once again, you say all those centers had more defensive impact in 96. Then why did their team defenses play worse? Payton didn't have a Rodman or Jordan helping him either. Or any other All-Defensive team member. He had as much help as say Dikembe did. Yet Payton's team played better defense.
And this is just team defense, which should be a Center's main advantage over a guard. Yet Payton overcomes this by leading his defenses to status better than any center in the league. Then when you go down to individual defense, I guarantee you Payton guarded his player individually better than anyone in the league.[/QUOTE]
the fact that he had no other all defense player on his team doesn't mean he played better defense than pippen, jordan or rodman.
and you can guarantee whatever you want, i'll guarantee you he doesn't get switched from finley to barkley in the same game and go on to stop mark jackson, tim hardaway as well as chris webber.
As for the 1996 Finals, you can't be dominant while shooting sub 40%. At that point, you're just as much of a liability by giving away possessions and potential points. Many people were fighting for Rodman to win Finals MVP over Jordan. Hell, Shawn Kemp had a case over Jordan according to quite a few people.
[QUOTE=GP_20]Career-wise he might arguably be below them. But prime wise, he is a Top 3 PG All-Time.[/QUOTE]
Exactly how? Oscar's 30-12-12 translates to 23-8-8 in today's statistics (not exacly fair, but It's close enough) On top of that, he was a more skilled post player, and a better shooter, better passer, better rebounder. Better everything except defense.
Magic hopefully doesn't need much of an explanation.
Isiah in his peak is probably the best PG ever, even though it was fairly short. He was a better scorer then Payton, capable of sustaining 25 ppg for a playoff run, and also capable of still getting his team mates involved while doing it, something Payton couldn't do while scoring his regular 20 ppg.
Stockton is 100 times the passer Payton was, Scored 17 points while in the flow of the offense, instead of stagnating it like Payton did. He was as great of a team defender as Payton arguably better, the only thing Payton realistically has on him is his 1 on 1 defense.
Cousy is difficult to compare because he played much of his career in the 50's. However he was an MVP winner, was a great passer, and was much better compared to the average PG he played then Payton.
[QUOTE=Teanett]the fact that he had no other all defense player on his team doesn't mean he played better defense than pippen, jordan or rodman.
and you can guarantee whatever you want, i'll guarantee you he doesn't get switched from finley to barkley in the same game and go on to stop mark jackson, tim hardaway as well as chris webber.[/QUOTE]
Shawn Marion goes through that. It's called "defensive versatility". Is Marion a better defender than Payton too?
You could make a case for prime Pippen to be a better defender than prime Payton. Sure. But this is 1996. Payton's defensive peak, and Pippen had slowed a little down on defense by then. And the work Payton did in 96
#2 Team Defense (Behind arguably the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in Team TOs created
#1 in League in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down all PGs throughout the season
- Wins DPOY by a LANDSLIDE
Read the last part. He won by a landslide. Why do you think they would give it to him by a landslide?
there's something about seeing former stars as television "analysts" that slightly alters my overall perception of the player (the mental snapshots of said players legacy)
in other words, when I see Payton wiseassin on TV it somehow taints the glorious perception I have of him in my head. You know what else taints my view of Payton? seeing him run with the Heat like a poor man's Eric Snow. now [I]that[/I] will taint a perception!~
[QUOTE=Teanett]and while we're at it...
i believe that his dpoy was undeserved.
he was great at what he does (lock down guards one on one, steals, denying passes) but he didnt have the same defensive impact as admiral, dream, motumbo, pip or rodman that year.[/QUOTE]
:facepalm
Payton was a beast defensively. You don't just win that award as a guard by accident.
[QUOTE=GP_20]Shawn Marion goes through that. It's called "defensive versatility". Is Marion a better defender than Payton too?
You could make a case for prime Pippen to be a better defender than prime Payton. Sure. But this is 1996. Payton's defensive peak, and Pippen had slowed a little down on defense by then. And the work Payton did in 96
#2 Team Defense (Behind arguably the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in Team TOs created
#1 in League in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down all PGs throughout the season
- Wins DPOY by a LANDSLIDE
Read the last part. He won by a landslide. Why do you think they would give it to him by a landslide?[/QUOTE]
1996 was arguably pippen's best year defensively because jordan came back and pippen could spend more energy on defense.
as for the work pippen did:
#1 Team Defense (as the anchor of the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in playoffs in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down players on ALL POSITIONS throughout the season
so why did gary payton win dpoy?
well, why did steve nash win 2 mvp's over shaq, duncan and kobe?
:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=comerb]:facepalm
Payton was a beast defensively. You don't just win that award as a guard by accident.[/QUOTE]
never said he wasn't.
i just think others could impact a game defensively more than he did.
[QUOTE=Teanett]1996 was arguably pippen's best year defensively because jordan came back and pippen could spend more energy on defense.
as for the work pippen did:
#1 Team Defense (as the anchor of the greatest defensive team of all-time)
#1 in playoffs in Steals
- Exceptional 1 on 1 defense
- Limited and shut down players on ALL POSITIONS throughout the season
so why did gary payton win dpoy?
well, why did steve nash win 2 mvp's over shaq, duncan and kobe?
:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
You've got to be kidding me. :lol
Don't you think Jordan and Rodman have any impact on the Bulls being the best team in the NBA defensively? I mean, really. What do you mean Pippen "anchored" that defense? "Anchoring" is when you are one and clearly the best defensive player on your team. Pippen wasn't even arguably the best defender on his own team and you are talking about him "anchoring" his team on defense.
In fact, the Bulls allowed a league low [B]101.8[/B] points per 100 possessions. The Sonic's allowed the 2nd lowest [B]102.1[/B] points per 100 possessions. That's virtually even. Pippen had Jordan and Rodman on his team. Payton had...no one close to that caliber on defense.
And you are still wondering why Payton won DPOY? :roll:
Look at it this way
#1 Defense allowing 101.8 points/100 possessions with Rodman and Jordan as your teammates vs. #2 Defense allowing 102.1points/possessions with no All-D member on your team.
Which is more impressive? Do you realize Rodman and Jordan are some of the greatest defenders of all-time themselves? I can't believe I actually have to explain this.
Payton won his DPOY [B]by a landslide[/B]. Nash did not. Why do you think they gave it to Payton by a landslide?
Once again, Pippen is a great defender, but by 96 had slowed down. He averaged 2.9spg and 1.1bpg in 95, in 96 he was down to 1.7spg and 0.7bpg. Stats aren't everything, but I'm saying his defensive peak was past him. He had hit his 30s by 96. So maybe at some point he was better than Payton on defense, but 96, no way.
And why do you keep bringing up playoffs? DPOY is based on regular season. Playoff stats are irrelevant.
I'm sorry, you think the whole world is stupid (giving Payton DPOY by a landslide), and it doesn't matter how good defensively your teammates are in relation with how many points you allow (extremely stupid), and steals don't matter at all, and so on. This is just absurd reasoning.
Like I said, you can make the argument Pippen was better than Payton defensively at their respective peaks, but 96 was all Gary Payton.
[QUOTE=GP_20]You've got to be kidding me. :lol
Don't you think Jordan and Rodman have any impact on the Bulls being the best team in the NBA defensively? I mean, really. What do you mean Pippen "anchored" that defense? "Anchoring" is when you are one and clearly the best defensive player on your team. Pippen wasn't even arguably the best defender on his own team and you are talking about him "anchoring" his team on defense.
In fact, the Bulls allowed a league low [B]101.8[/B] points per 100 possessions. The Sonic's allowed the 2nd lowest [B]102.1[/B] points per 100 possessions. That's virtually even. Pippen had Jordan and Rodman on his team. Payton had...no one close to that caliber on defense.
And you are still wondering why Payton won DPOY? :roll:
Look at it this way
#1 Defense allowing 101.8 points/100 possessions with Rodman and Jordan as your teammates vs. #2 Defense allowing 102.1points/possessions with no All-D member on your team.
Which is more impressive? Do you realize Rodman and Jordan are some of the greatest defenders of all-time themselves? I can't believe I actually have to explain this.
Payton won his DPOY [B]by a landslide[/B]. Nash did not. Why do you think they gave it to Payton by a landslide?
Once again, Pippen is a great defender, but by 96 had slowed down. He averaged 2.9spg and 1.1bpg in 95, in 96 he was down to 1.7spg and 0.7bpg. Stats aren't everything, but I'm saying his defensive peak was past him. He had hit his 30s by 96. So maybe at some point he was better than Payton on defense, but 96, no way.
And why do you keep bringing up playoffs? DPOY is based on regular season. Playoff stats are irrelevant.
I'm sorry, you think the whole world is stupid (giving Payton DPOY by a landslide), and it doesn't matter how good defensively your teammates are in relation with how many points you allow (extremely stupid), and steals don't matter at all, and so on. This is just absurd reasoning.
Like I said, you can make the argument Pippen was better than Payton defensively at their respective peaks, but 96 was all Gary Payton.[/QUOTE]
you just twist it how you like it, eh?
you say pippen wasn't in his prime anymore but remember jordan and rodman were 33+35 that point?
pippen was the best defender and the defensive "captain" on that team.
and dont tell me that sonics team didnt have good defenders.
nate mcmillan, askew, young eric snow. det and hersey were solid.
kemp was a very good defender. what do you think earvin johnson and brickowski were on the team for? scoring?
the sonics bigs were better individual defenders than kukoc, longley and wennington.
twist it how you like it, there is no clear evidence of him being clearly better than pippen, robinson, etc. in '96.
[QUOTE=Teanett]you just twist it how you like it, eh?
you say pippen wasn't in his prime anymore but remember jordan and rodman were 33+35 that point?
pippen was the best defender and the defensive "captain" on that team.
and dont tell me that sonics team didnt have good defenders.
nate mcmillan, askew, young eric snow. det and hersey were solid.
kemp was a very good defender. what do you think earvin johnson and brickowski were on the team for? scoring?
the sonics bigs were better individual defenders than kukoc, longley and wennington.
twist it how you like it, there is no clear evidence of him being clearly better than pippen, robinson, etc. in '96.[/QUOTE]
Neither Jordan, Pippen, nor Rodman were at their peaks defensively. But they were all still good, good enough for All-Defensive 1st.
Pippen's defensive cast was still A LOT STRONGER than Payton's. It's not even close. Jordan and Rodman are 2 of the greatest of all-time and were both All-Defensive 1st. Payton had no All-Defensive team member on his team. LOL at comparing a bunch of average to solid defenders to JORDAN and RODMAN. :roll:
I've never seen so much insult on defense to Rodman and Jordan until now. This is just sad.
I don't know about you but I'm not dumb enough to ignore every fact thrown at me.
[B]1.[/B] Payton's team, with a FAR WORSE defensive cast around him allowed virtually the SAME POINTS per 100 possessions as Pippen's team. If Pippen was a better defender, you'd expect his team along with Jordan and Rodman (2 All-D 1st members) to hold teams to substantially lower points than Payton and no one strong helping him. But this is not the case. Payton's ability to lead his team to as great of defense as Pippen/Jordan/Rodman Bulls is actually amazing.
[B]2.[/B] You know people who were watching the NBA at the time (not you apparently), analysts and everyone, they said Payton was DPOY by a LANDSLIDE.
Please tell me when are awards given incorrectly to a LANDSLIDE winner? :facepalm
[B]3. [/B]Payton led the league in steals, while Pippen was now in his 30s and all his defensive stats had fallen down drastically from the year before.
I don't get it, did you pass 3rd grade? Even a 3rd grader would be able to see the argument for Payton is clearly stronger. Or are you that ignorant? Which is it?
I'm not saying this is some kind of proof, but even someone illiterate would see Payton has a much stronger case. In fact, what is the case for Pippen? :oldlol:
.
I'm actually stunned at how stupid ISH has become. This guy here has no case at all yet he is still arguing. Just because he "initially" thought so, he doesn't want to change his opinion.
I really bet I could make a better argument for Kobe to receive 3-4 DPOYs than this guy is making for Pippen to get DPOY in 96. It's actually ridiculously sad. :facepalm I mean, EVERY sign points towards Payton, I still can't believe I actually have to explain some of this.
Honestly bro, your argument right now for Pippen is as strong as this:
[I][B]"I think Nash should've won DPOY last year because I thought so".[/B][/I]
That's it. :facepalm
Stop embarrassing yourself. Your only argument was that he led the league in steals in playoffs, and DPOYs are given in the regular season. Fail.
Don't think he's underrated. He is one of the top PG of all time and one of the best perimeter defenders. Once Nash and Kidd retires, then ppl will adjust to them. But Nash and Kidd are great PGs too.
Man..some of u are either dumb, young or both, lol..........I don't have time to type out a long response but I'll just say I agree pretty much with GP20.....Some of you are seriously TRIPPING taking Nash over GP...I'm no GP fan by any stretch but I'm 30 years old so I remember watching PLENTY of Gary Payton and whoever said Jordan outplayed him in the 96 you are LYING or did not watch the series....I don't care about numbers, go WATCH IT AND GIVE IT THE SEE AND EYE TEST....From the time Karl put GP on MJ which was game 3 I'm pretty sure, though I don't remember at what point in the game, he AT LEAST played him evenly and I DISTINCTLY remember during that year, when I was on message boards, most people including the analysys were siding with GP....Shawn Kemp easily wins MVP if the Sonics win that series..........smh
[QUOTE=GP_20]
I don't get it, did you pass 3rd grade? Even a 3rd grader would be able to see the argument for Payton is clearly stronger. Or are you that ignorant? Which is it?
I'm not saying this is some kind of proof, but even someone illiterate would see Payton has a much stronger case. In fact, what is the case for Pippen? :oldlol:
.[/QUOTE]
you don't have a point.
your only argument is, that glove had worse teammates.
but the bulls were the best defensive team, how is it far fetched to say that they also had the best individual defender?
he won the dpoy because the media types voted him. fine. the same people who voted for nash over shaq, kg and duncan.
but you can't at any point from 91-98 say he was clearly a better defender than pippen or deke.
what's your argument over deke's 4.5 bpg? team defense? i'll play the teammate card, it will go nowhere.
but i'll leave you with crusade to defend payton over everybody.
[QUOTE=Teanett]you don't have a point.
your only argument is, that glove had worse teammates.
but the bulls were the best defensive team, how is it far fetched to say that they also had the best individual defender?
he won the dpoy because the media types voted him. fine. the same people who voted for nash over shaq, kg and duncan.
but you can't at any point from 91-98 say he was clearly a better defender than pippen or deke.
what's your argument over deke's 4.5 bpg? team defense? i'll play the teammate card, it will go nowhere.
but i'll leave you with crusade to defend payton over everybody.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
Gary Payton had [B]FAR WORSE[/B] defensive teammates. Yet their team defenses were [B]virtually equal[/B]. (0.3ppg)
Do you understand that? If the Bulls were FAR better on defense (at least 5ppg) then I wouldn't have a case. But since Payton by himself was able to take his team to a defensive level to the equals of Rodman/Jordan/Pippen, this means something.
Seriously, this is just hilarious. :oldlol:
You remind of me of 1st grade. But even I wasn't this stupid in 1st grade.
Once again ignore all the facts, stats, opinions, judgements, and everything. You have Pippen. You can make Kobe the DPOY last year as well. The case is just as strong as Pippen's in 96. Maybe even stronger.
What's your guys's argument?
[I]
"Because because I thought so..."
[/I]
:facepalm
[QUOTE=Dro]Man..some of u are either dumb, young or both, lol..........I don't have time to type out a long response but I'll just say I agree pretty much with GP20.....Some of you are seriously TRIPPING taking Nash over GP...I'm no GP fan by any stretch but I'm 30 years old so I remember watching PLENTY of Gary Payton and whoever said Jordan outplayed him in the 96 you are LYING or did not watch the series....I don't care about numbers, go WATCH IT AND GIVE IT THE SEE AND EYE TEST....From the time Karl put GP on MJ which was game 3 I'm pretty sure, though I don't remember at what point in the game, he AT LEAST played him evenly and I DISTINCTLY remember during that year, when I was on message boards, most people including the analysys were siding with GP....Shawn Kemp easily wins MVP if the Sonics win that series..........smh[/QUOTE]
you've succumbed to the myth.
through the last 4 games jordan averaged 26 to payton's 21.
how is that even?
[QUOTE=Teanett]you've succumbed to the myth.
through the last 4 games jordan averaged 26 to payton's 21.
how is that even?[/QUOTE]
Mid-way Game 3 Payton started guarding him. Game 4 Jordan also started guarding Payton (Harper went down with an injury). So they were matched Head to Head
Games 4-6
Michael Jordan
[B]22/60 36.7% 23.7ppg 5.3rpg 3.7apg 3.7tpg[/B]
Gary Payton
[B]21/43 48.9% 21.0ppg 5.3rpg 8.0apg 2.7tpg[/B]
Who outplayed who the 2nd half the series as they went at each other head to head?
[I]
[B]Bill Walton, commentating for NBC at the time, said Payton "outplayed" Jordan during the second half of the series[/B][/I]
-Bill Walton
All I'm gonna say is this, Jordan is lucky Payton wasn't guarding him the whole series. The 1996 DPOY was just sick.
And prior to the series, does anyone remember how bad Payton dominated John Stockton? Both these guys were around the same level coming in, All-Stars and All-NBA 2nd team members.
But the domination Payton exhibited on Stockton in the WCF was the PG equivalence to the dominance Hakeem displayed on Robinson in the WCF a year ago. It's this series that puts Hakeem over Robinson for good, and Payton over Stockton for good.
Here is how it went:
[B]
Game 1:[/B]
John Stockton
2/10 4pts 7ast 2reb 1stl
Gary Payton
8/16 21pts 7ast 4reb 3stl
[B]Game 2:[/B]
John Stockton
5/8 11pts 7ast 0reb 1stl
Gary Payton
7/16 18pts 8ast 2reb 4stl
[B]Game 3:[/B]
John Stockton
2/9 7pts 6ast 2reb 0stl
Gary Payton
11/21 25pts 3ast 6reb 1stl
[B]
Game 4:[/B]
John Stockton
3/9 7pts 8ast 3reb 3stl
Gary Payton
7/17 19pts 6ast 4reb 0stl
Game 5:
John Stockton
1/6 4pts 6ast 4reb 2stl
Gary Payton
11/17 31pts 6ast 5reb 2stl
[B]Game 6:[/B]
John Stockton
5/11 14pts 12ast 2reb 1stl
Gary Payton
3/7 10pts 7ast 9reb 0stl
[B]Game 7:[/B]
John Stockton
9/15 22pts 7ast 8reb 4stl
Gary Payton
9/17 21pts 5ast 6reb 1stl
TOTALS
[SIZE="4"][B]John Stockton
[/SIZE]
27/68 39.7% 9.8ppg 7.6apg 3.0rpg 1.7spg 3-4[/B]
[B]
[SIZE="4"]
Gary Payton
[/SIZE]
56/111 50.4% 20.7ppg 6.0apg 5.1rpg 1.6spg 4-3[/B]
The 15/11/53% shooting Stockton, was shut down. While Payton scored and shot at even a higher % than his season numbers. No excuse for Stockton here, Payton outplaying Stockton cost the Jazz a close series. He was doubled in the scoring department and even assists was close.
And both were looking for their 1st Final's App. at the time, so it was a very important series for both .