Printable View
[QUOTE]the suns werent better in 06 than in 05, but having lost amare, and still winning 54 games made nash a huge favor in the voter's eyes.[/QUOTE]
Have to agree there. When Amare went down i saw so many gloom and doom predictions for the Suns. I also saw some Nash haters who said he would be exposed without Amare. OOPS
I have no problem at all with him winning his two MVPs.
For the first time ever, I agree with Glove. Nash should have been a top MVP candidate last year but Dirk deserved it more than him IMO.
[QUOTE=konex]Maybe he deserved the first one but he STOLE that second one from Kobe, Bron or Dirk.[/QUOTE]
dirk is the only one arguable, kobe was part of a garbage team who won 45 games, lebron won 50 games, seriously dislodge your head from those 2 overrated guards and tell me who was won mvp in the last 25 years with 50-wins ? nobody has, lebron and kobe mvp would have been a pharce and a travesty to say the least.
[QUOTE=konex]I mean, who DOESN'T have good stats in that system? And he plays with too many good players to get MVP twice in a row IMO.
[/QUOTE]
thats all it is, your opinion, biased as always, diaw was garbage without nash, amare jumped from 19 ppg scorer to 26 pg 56% scorer within a year thanks to the mvp, bell, jones, house, marion do nothing offensivelly except for wait the mvp to give them the ball on an open spot to take an open jumper, nash isnt a part or product of the system, the guy IS the system.
[QUOTE=konex]Maybe he deserved the first one but he STOLE that second one from Kobe, Bron or Dirk.[/quote]
:roll: stole it from Kobe? Get real. Last yrs was arguable. But for fans to act like he shouldnt have even been in the race, been considered is silly.
[QUOTE]I mean, who DOESN'T have good stats in that system? And he plays with too many good players to get MVP twice in a row IMO..[/QUOTE]
Classic, i just spoke on fans using this excuse.
[quote]Voters are in a jam this year cos there's NO WAY they can give it to him even if he does deserve it :roll:[/QUOTE]
They arent in a jam. He continues this if not betters his stats...and the Suns win games. I wouldnt be mad if he won #3.
The thing that gets me is this board can be stat whores. We post the stats Lebron puts up. KG put up back then...a list of players who put up eye opening stats. Nash does that and he doesnt deserve an award for it. What does Bron do that makes him any more deserving? Didnt know the prerequisitie was to play on a bad team, play in a avg system and put up stats...therefore you qualify. If thats the case Allen Iverson should have won it last yr. Oops you'll edit your criteria and say they must make playoffs/have a top NBA record. But Nash was apart of that as well. Whatever.
You guys make a criteria that is funny and not consistent at all. Has holes.
[QUOTE=konex]Maybe he deserved the first one but he STOLE that second one from Kobe, Bron or Dirk.
I mean, who DOESN'T have good stats in that system? And he plays with too many good players to get MVP twice in a row IMO.
Voters are in a jam this year cos there's NO WAY they can give it to him even if he does deserve it :roll:[/QUOTE]
raja bell, boris diaw... who were these players before they played with nash?
but no... its ENTIRELY the system... i mean, its easy to get great numbers in the system, it has nothing to do with the person who makes that system tick.
when george karl was asked at the beginning of the season whether the nugs could run a system as effective as PHX's... his response "nah, thats a Steve Nash thing"
and no one better mention kobe... this year he may have a chance cause the lakers are actually performing... last couple seasons with the lakers playing like a$$... NO CHANCE.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]thats bullcrap, why no mention of howard and terry ?
the suns were hit by injuries all year, one injury sidelined their best scorer all season long, kurt thomas missed a lot of games too, marion depends on amare to do pretty much everything, diaw was a garbage 4 ppg player who nash MADE good, end of story.[/QUOTE]
well how does marion depend on amare for everything considering he had a career year last year and if you want to talk about thomas missing alot of games? Ok lets go there. The mavs had Jerry stackhouse, Josh Howard, KVH, Quis, Devin Harris, and adrian griffin who all missed at least 20 games.
The mavs started rawle freakin marshall 9 games last year.
[QUOTE=DoubleTech]raja bell, boris diaw... who were these players before they played with nash?
but no... its ENTIRELY the system... i mean, its easy to get great numbers in the system, it has nothing to do with the person who makes that system tick.
when george karl was asked at the beginning of the season whether the nugs could run a system as effective as PHX's... his response "nah, thats a Steve Nash thing"
and no one better mention kobe... this year he may have a chance cause the lakers are actually performing... last couple seasons with the lakers playing like a$$... NO CHANCE.[/QUOTE]
raja bells numbers barely moved except for a slight uptick in ppg which is simply accounted for by the pace.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]dirk is the only one arguable, kobe was part of a garbage team who won 45 games, lebron won 50 games, seriously dislodge your head from those 2 overrated guards and tell me who was won mvp in the last 25 years with 50-wins ? nobody has, lebron and kobe mvp would have been a pharce and a travesty to say the least.
\QUOTE]
so you wanna bring up historical trends???The same trends that would make NAsh has more MVP's than Shaq. Shaq has been more valuable than NAsh ever since Orlando. Every single year, where are his 4 MVP's?????
the historical trend is made by the voters, not me, THEY have decided for the past 3 decades (if i research further than that im sure the trend continues) that the mvp should be part of an elite team, not a 45wins team, they decide it, and thanks god they got it right, nash mvp, avery coach of the year, and ben wallace DPOY, im glad the voters saw through the kobe bryant/lebron james hype and voted for a true candidate on a true contendor, same with wallace over bowen.
I mean I am ok with Nash getting it in 2005
But he didn't deserve it in 2006...
Dirk should've been MVP...
Why?
Simple
1. His team had a better record
2. He had less talent around him
3. He put numbers as good as or BETTER than Nash last year
Why didn't Dirk win MVP?
because his team didnt lose a 30 ppg scorer, pre-injury amare is as valuable as terry and howard put together, lets see what can dirk do if he loses them.
[QUOTE]seriously dislodge your head from those 2 overrated guards and tell me who was won mvp in the last 25 years with 50-wins ? [/QUOTE]
And who has won MVP in the last 25 with stats like Nash's?
nash isnt a stat maker, he is a team leader, great passer and playmaker, who cant score the **** out of you if his team needs to.
there is a difference between being the mvp and a meaningless scoring champion, some people have trouble understanding that.
the kobe bryant bandwagoners made their case for kobe winning mvp on 3 things, his 81 pts game, his 62 pts game and his scoring title, because based on records the lakers were crap.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]because his team didnt lose a 30 ppg scorer, pre-injury amare is as valuable as terry and howard put together, lets see what can dirk do if he loses them.[/QUOTE]
Dirk STILL had less talent around him even after he lost Amare
Nash had
Marion (All-Star)
Diaw
Raja Bell
Kurt Thomas
Dirk had
Josh Howard
Terry
Dampier
Nash STILL had more talent around him...yet Dirk put out a better record, with less talent, just as good or better numbers,
yet Nash gets the MVP
:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Glove_20]I mean I am ok with Nash getting it in 2005
But he didn't deserve it in 2006...
Dirk should've been MVP...
Why?
Simple
1. His team had a better record
[B]2. He had less talent around him[/B]
3. He put numbers as good as or BETTER than Nash last year
Why didn't Dirk win MVP?[/QUOTE]
I simply disagree with the bolded statement Glove. Dirk is surrounded with talented players around him Like Terry, Stackhouse(Good scorer), and Howard. As we know Nash didn't have Amare, so other than Nash the only really good player was Marion. The other players around him simply put up better numbers can be attributed to Nash, not so much can be said for Dirk's mates. Oh and I do think Dirk should have been MVP.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]because his team didnt lose a 30 ppg scorer, pre-injury amare is as valuable as terry and howard put together, lets see what can dirk do if he loses them.[/QUOTE]
This is the logic im talking about dip****. Yes losing amare was a huge loss and moreso than the other people the mavs lost BUT that would only matter if they started off with the same amount of talent around them which they didnt. Just saying well he didnt have amare doesnt mean that that team didnt have talent. No one else had amare either. :hammerhead: The suns were still an extremely talented team. Moreso than the mavs excluding the respective mvp candidates.
If Kidd, GP and Stockon couldn't sniff MVPs doing the same thing, Nash ain't no MVP. And those guys played defense!
Best PG on a loaded team? Yes. MVP? Nope...
[QUOTE=Glove_20]Dirk STILL had less talent around him even after he lost Amare
Nash had
[B]
Marion (All-Star)
Diaw
Raja Bell
Kurt Thomas[/B]
[/QUOTE]
all 4 players arent even 60% of what they looked with nash when nash doesnt play, so :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=XxNeXuSxX]I simply disagree with the bolded statement Glove. Dirk is surrounded with talented players around him Like Terry, Stackhouse(Good scorer), and Howard. As we know Nash didn't have Amare, so other than Nash the only really good player was Marion. The other players around him simply put up better numbers can be attributed to Nash, not so much can be said for Dirk's mates. Oh and I do think Dirk should have been MVP.[/QUOTE]
Marion is an all-star, and he is easily, and much better than Josh Howard or Jason Terry...
Diaw has talent, he isn't a product of a system, he just has great all-around ability...
Bell u can say is the product of Nash, but not Diaw...
Stachouse is a role player, kinda like Barbosa...
Kurt Thomas = Dampier basically
But anyways, what were ur reasons...
it still amazes me that a team that started a guy who couldnt get minutes in cleveland and a guy who cant get minutes in chicago was considered to be so loaded by many of you. Wake the hell up. Jerry stackhouse was someone the mavs HAD to take to get devin. Besides that he was hurt and he sucked anyway.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]all 4 players arent even 60% of what they looked with nash when nash doesnt play, so :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Marion was doing good before Nash
Diaw has talent and excelled in the games Nash didn't play for the Suns
Bell, u could say was cuz of Nash
And Kurt Thomas put BETTER numbers without Nash...so :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=GOBB]I want to know what makes Lebron or Dirk MVP canidates and not Steve Nash. Seems like fans have made him into a player that cant win it. Like its reserved for a specific elite group and no one else...and Nash isnt among the elites. His production is a product of the system D'Antoni has instilled along with talented players who excel in the same system to give Nash his assist numbers. I wanna know what it is about Nash that he cant win a MVP.[/QUOTE]
The factor is individual dominance. Just look at the list of past MVPs. For the most part they were acknowledged top-5 players, and feared around the league. To this legacy you put in a guy who averaged 15.5ppg (in 04-05)?????
The Suns had a great turnaround season, and he was a big part of it -- but was by no means the ONLY reason that the team ended with a gaudy record. He wasn't even the best player on his own team. Name me the last time a player like that was selected the MVP?
Various people have different reasons for why Nash shouldn't have been in the running for the MVP in either year. Mine is that he just isn't dominant enough, not in the mold of the previous winners.
All his defenders can talk about is the team record, but it seems to me like individual accomplishments in a given season -- which is usually heavily weighted in the MVP vote -- seems to have been completely discounted.
[QUOTE=konex]If Kidd, GP and Stockon couldn't sniff MVPs doing the same thing, Nash ain't no MVP. And those guys played defense!
Best PG on a loaded team? Yes. MVP? Nope...[/QUOTE]
what part dont you get ?
kidd was going against prime shaq and duncan, kidd is an insignificant bum compared to those 2 legends.
GP was going against mike, hakeem, robinson, young shaq, barkley, malone, and he was simply no match for them
nash was going against 2 overhyped guards who didn't win enough games to be mvp, one of them won 45 so he was 100% not mvp and the other won 50 in the east, which translates into 40-43 in the west at most.
nash didn't face the legendary competition kidd and payton faced.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]the cavs won 50 IN THE EAST, whether YOU like it or no the voters understand that the cavs would barely crack 40 in the west, which is the conference where nash lead the suns to 54 wins without 30 ppg amare stoudemire who was out all year.
the suns werent better in 06 than in 05, but having lost amare, and still winning 54 games made nash a huge favor in the voter's eyes.[/QUOTE]
LeBron averaged 31/7/7. Dirk averaged 27/9/3/1blk on a better team. And Amare hasn't ever averaged over 26 a game. Not that it's a huge difference, but stop putting '30 ppg' in there like it's his name, annoying.
Steve Nash winning the MVP is right up there with Hurricane Katrina in terms of the disasters that occured last year. It's just as sad, too.
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf] [B]He wasn't even the best player on his own team[/B].
[/QUOTE]
of course he was, amare increased scoring and % was a product of nash's mvp game, same for JJ, q-rich, marion, bell, house, barbosa, jones increased scoring averages and having career years was a product of steve nash.
the only way to realize he is the best player is to ask yourself this= would amare or marion lead the suns to 54 wins with nash sitting out all season ? they would be cellar dwellars without nash, he is the system not just a part of it.
[QUOTE]To this legacy you put in a guy who averaged 15.5ppg [/QUOTE]
Utter domination of the league! :rolleyes:
btw on the nash makes marion idea, marions scoring isnt what improved with nash. He still scores roughly what he did pre nash if you exclude his rookie season. His rebounds and blocks went up. How the hell is that a result of nash? The rebounds are a result of the pace which some of you will confuse with nash but marion is roughly the same player he was pre nash. Bell is EXACTLY the same player he was he just gets to shoot a little more because of the pace.
[QUOTE=EuJazz]LeBron averaged 31/7/7. Dirk averaged 27/9/3/1blk on a better team. And Amare hasn't ever averaged over 26 a game. Not that it's a huge difference, but stop putting '30 ppg' in there like it's his name, annoying.
Steve Nash winning the MVP is right up there with Hurricane Katrina in terms of the disasters that occured last year. It's just as sad, too.[/QUOTE]
lebron averaged meaningless numbers on a pathetic and hyped pretender who barely cracked 50 wins after choking their way out of the playoffs for 2 consecutive years.
i don't give a sheit if it annoys you mister "stockton is a better shooter than hornacek and reggie miller" :roll: :roll: :roll: thats the true, their lost their best scorer and still were a great team, courtesy of nash mvp game, not of the overrated coattail riders who look better because of nash.
[QUOTE]of course he was, amare increased scoring and % was a product of nash's mvp game, same for [B]JJ, q-rich, marion, bell, house, barbosa, jones [/B]increased scoring averages and having career years was a product of steve nash.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for explaining for us how loaded that team was. Those guys would have goten theirs, you think all of them played well because of Nash? Bell did this same stuff in Utah, just upped his ppg in Phoenix because of the faster-paced game. And we all know Q-Rich (finally playing well again), JJ, and Marion can ball.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]of course he was, amare increased scoring and % was a product of nash's mvp game, same for JJ, q-rich, marion, bell, house, barbosa, jones increased scoring averages and having career years was a product of steve nash.
the only way to realize he is the best player is to ask yourself this= would amare or marion lead the suns to 54 wins with nash sitting out all season ? they would be cellar dwellars without nash, he is the system not just a part of it.[/QUOTE]
except that jj didnt have a career year, marions career year was a result of rebounding not scoring, qrich didnt have a career year and bell is just scoring 2 a game more than he used to because of the pace but on similar percentages. Barbosa has played almost his whole career with nash so that would be like attributing josh howards scoring solely to dirk.
You know for someone that complains about hype you dont seem to know a hell of alot more than what ric dickhead bucher says.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]lebron averaged meaningless numbers on a pathetic and hyped pretender who barely cracked 50 wins after choking their way out of the playoffs for 2 consecutive years.
i don't give a sheit if it annoys you mister "stockton is a better shooter than hornacek and reggie miller" :roll: :roll: :roll: thats the true, their lost their best scorer and still were a great team, courtesy of nash mvp game, not of the overrated coattail riders who look better because of nash.[/QUOTE]
Never said he was better than Miller, fyi, you ****ing asshat.
How many people in history have averaged something like that? Meaningless my ass. And it's the regular season MVP, 50 wins isn't successful now-a-days?
And I could have sworn NASH was the best scorer on the team with the way people praise him around here...he wasn't even the best player on his team the first year. This is bush league.
[QUOTE=EuJazz]Thanks for explaining for us how loaded that team was. Those guys would have goten theirs, you think all of them played well because of Nash? Bell did this same stuff in Utah, just upped his ppg in Phoenix because of the faster-paced game. And we all know Q-Rich (finally playing well again), JJ, and Marion can ball.[/QUOTE]
no, we dont, marion balls because of nash, qrich the same, johnsonis the only one legit.
and no one invited you to the discussion MR "stockton is a better shooter than miller and hornacek" :roll: :roll: :roll: better go a delete those bs posts you made on the stockton threads :roll:
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]of course he was, amare increased scoring and % was a product of nash's mvp game, same for JJ, q-rich, marion, bell, house, barbosa, jones increased scoring averages and having career years was a product of steve nash.
the only way to realize he is the best player is to ask yourself this= would amare or marion lead the suns to 54 wins with nash sitting out all season ? they would be cellar dwellars without nash, he is the system not just a part of it.[/QUOTE]
So, this is your convoluted reasoning for saying that because he helped to facilitate getting his teammates involved (which is a point guard's job), which led to a very good record, he somehow is the best player on the team?
What are you smoking? This Nash groupie thing is so far out of control, it isn't funny anymore.
Come talk to me about this Dream Rockets
You still haven't dis proven my points
[QUOTE]You know for someone that complains about hype you dont seem to know a hell of alot more than what ric dickhead bucher says.[/QUOTE]
*B!tchslaps DreamRockets with a fish*
[QUOTE=EuJazz]Never said he was better than Miller, fyi, you ****ing asshat.
How many people in history have averaged something like that? [B]Meaningless my ass. And it's the regular season MVP, 50 wins isn't successful now-a-days? [/B] [/QUOTE]
of course is not when there are better players on better teams, lebron's 50 wins was like the 5th or 6th best record in the league, mvp my ass, 50 wins in the east is crap, and thats exactly why kidd didn't win it, because he had no arguments over tim duncan.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]no, we dont, marion balls because of nash, qrich the same, johnsonis the only one legit.
and no one invited you to the discussion MR "stockton is a better shooter than miller and hornacek" :roll: :roll: :roll: better go a delete those bs posts you made on the stockton threads :roll:[/QUOTE]
Why dont you go read them, dumbass.
the hypocrisy continues.
Nash supporter: its all about winning Nashs team won more than kobes or lebrons.
Dirk supporter: Umm Dirks team won more than nashs while dirk put up better individual numbers.
Nash Supporter: Nash didnt have amare.
Dirk supporter:He did have marion and diaw and bell and barbosa and thomas and...
Nash supporter: Ummm Nash is the greatest player ever....
dirk Supporter: so you have no clue what the hell you are talking about?
Nash supporter: Nash makes everyone better...
Dirk supporter: thats what i thought...
[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]So, this is your convoluted reasoning for saying that because he helped to facilitate getting his teammates involved (which is a point guard's job), which led to a very good record, he somehow is the best player on the team?
What are you smoking? This Nash groupie thing is so far out of control, it isn't funny anymore.[/QUOTE]
again wh0re boy , what would the suns be if nash sits out and amare and marion lead the team without him all season long ? :hammerhead: garbage is what they would be without their mvp :pimp:
[QUOTE=raiderfan19]the hypocrisy continues.
Nash supporter: its all about winning Nashs team won more than kobes or lebrons.
Dirk supporter: Umm Dirks team won more than nashs while dirk put up better individual numbers.
Nash Supporter: Nash didnt have amare.
Dirk supporter:He did have marion and diaw and bell and barbosa and thomas and...
Nash supporter: Ummm Nash is the greatest player ever....
dirk Supporter: so you have no clue what the hell you are talking about?
Nash supporter: Nash makes everyone better...
Dirk supporter: thats what i thought...[/QUOTE]
Thats basically how it went