Very disturbing charts on the wealth imbalance in USA

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]It isn't about entitlement. You are talking about getting things for free. I'm talking about people being paid a livable income for jobs that were once able to support the middle class and now -- with CEOs taking 10 times the money that they used to out of the pot (literally, 10-20 times) -- those jobs cannot support a single person, let alone an entire family.

Why do CEOs need to earn 500x what an average worker in a company makes? Weren't they satisfied with *only* taking 30x the income?[/QUOTE]

Because corporations are considered social beings; who pay taxes and account for more then 70% of the countries wealth. The same budget that is used to pay people their social assistance and disability checks.

I'm not disagreeing with you that low/middle-class families are in trouble; I'm just we the people didn't speak early enough. Now it's too late, and the opportunities we all were seeking are diminishing. How do we break the bubble? Unfortunately, the possibility of WW3.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Not sure if you've noticed, but the country isn't in the best shape. Our deficits are through the roof, the unemployment rate is through the roof, the under-employed rate is through the roof....

And, all the while, CEOs are bringing in record profits. Do you not see something *happening* to the nation's wealth?

Come to Ohio if you think that everything is fine and people spend $1,000 at strip malls every weekend. People are struggling in this country... Really struggling. I'm not just talking about the poor. [B]I'm talking about people with college degrees, that worked their @sses off for an education and are thousands upon thousands of dollars in debt with school loans and there are literally no good paying jobs available. [/B]

If you don't see it, it isn't me that is living in a fantasy world... it's you.[/QUOTE]

Is it the fault of the economy or is it the fault of those people for not really doing much research into their degree and looking at how much they'll make vs. how much they'll have to pay for school.

I remember reading on yahoo! about some girl who pulled $200k in loans for a sociology degree at a private school. That's on her. Just a stupid decision.

[QUOTE=Hawker]More CEOs need to be on that show called, "Undercover Boss." Most of those guys can't even do the grunt work that those workers get paid to do...like fixing cable boxes and what not.

If the big cigars had to go to a process where they had to be a "worker" for 6 months, maybe they'd appreciate those workers a little more and raise their salary. I think that's what it comes down to. Having a business degree doesn't mean s[COLOR="Black"]h[/COLOR]it.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. This really isn't a left-right issue... Or, it shouldn't be. This impacts everyone. I'm living paycheck to paycheck and barely scraping by... And it takes a hell of an effort to do that.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Not sure if you've noticed, but the country isn't in the best shape. Our deficits are through the roof, the unemployment rate is through the roof, the under-employed rate is through the roof....

And, all the while, CEOs are bringing in record profits. Do you not see something *happening* to the nation's wealth?

Come to Ohio if you think that everything is fine and people spend $1,000 at strip malls every weekend. People are struggling in this country... Really struggling. I'm not just talking about the poor. I'm talking about people with college degrees, that worked their @sses off for an education and are thousands upon thousands of dollars in debt with school loans and there are literally no good paying jobs available.

If you don't see it, it isn't me that is living in a fantasy world... it's you.[/QUOTE]
I know Detriot and Cleveland and others are suffering a bit, but we are on the rebound from this recession...the stock market is healthy...

Florida and Cali are having housing issues...I am aware...

we are probably both on polar opposites of the spectrum...you being hit harder than the average, and me being hit less than the average...

[QUOTE=Hawker]Is it the fault of the economy or is it the fault of those people for not really doing much research into their degree and looking at how much they'll make vs. how much they'll have to pay for school.

I remember reading on yahoo! about some girl who pulled $200k in loans for a sociology degree at a private school. That's on her. Just a stupid decision.[/QUOTE]
If it were isolated incidents, it would be one thing... This is happening to people in all fields with all manner of degrees from state and private schools.

the only real point I was trying to make is that those charts make us seem well off...most of us anyway...10% make over $160k???...that's a lot of money

half of us make $80k or more????...f*ck!!!

I am not saying it is good that owners make a kagillion times more than the workers...



MEXICO is unhealthy...no the US (in general)

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]I know Detriot and Cleveland and others are suffering a bit, but we are on the rebound from this recession...the stock market is healthy...

Florida and Cali are having housing issues...I am aware...

we are probably both on polar opposites of the spectrum...you being hit harder than the average, and me being hit less than the average...[/QUOTE]
And, what happens when the economy does rebound? Will CEOs kick it up to 1,000x what the average earner makes?

The point of this thread isn't how badly people in Cleveland are struggling. It is the re-distribution of wealth that has occurred in the last 50 years and the death of a healthy middle class.

Simply put, you can't have CEOs taking that big of a piece of the pie and still support a strong workforce with livable wages. It is literally impossible.

You can't expect the bottom 50% of the population to live on 1% of the nation's wealth and expect a strong middle class.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]And, what happens when the economy does rebound? Will CEOs kick it up to 1,000x what the average earner makes?

The point of this thread isn't how badly people in Cleveland are struggling. It is the re-distribution of wealth that has occurred in the last 50 years and the death of a healthy middle class.

Simply put, you can't have CEOs taking that big of a piece of the pie and still support a strong workforce with livable wages. It is literally impossible.

You can't expect the bottom 50% of the population to live on 1% of the nation's wealth and expect a strong middle class.[/QUOTE]
okay I am not saying that the CEOs making that much more is good...but do you honestly think we don't have a strong middle class?

I don't...

[QUOTE=Jasper]I've been on this planet longer than most of you.
Voted and supported the poor and middle class , and wish a balance would be struck for the betterment of human life in America for all.

[B]Not to bash the OP - fact is that those elite wealthy are in fact all Republicans. [/B]

After this last election I will never vote again.
This is sad , because I was quite proud of our country , where my grandfather came from , where my father and step father fought in WWII for our freedom and was lucky enought when the first 18 year olds were able to vote , I did and voted for a president.

Now I succumb to the realization that it is not only our goverment that is fcuked up , but the people that vote for the people that represent them.
remember the majority vote is the ruling body.
---------
Look at my state , those same voters that wanted change are now in Madison by the thousands protesting their rights... WHAT A FCUKING JOKE.[/QUOTE]

I do agree with you that a large number of the elite wealthy are republicans in this country. I could have probably put that in someplace in OP, but I just wanted to keep my opinion out of the OP as much as possible without starting the thread outright bashing people.

As for the voting aspect that you mentioned, I think it all boils down to what people watch or read throughout their daily life that determines what they do when they go to vote. There is a saying that says something like "a few control the minds of many."

Basically that is how successful propaganda works. What information a few guys put out will determine who wins the election when the time comes. It is a definitely disturbing how quickly a FEW guys are able to incite everyone that is listening/watching/reading them just based on the wording and tone that they use.

I remember reading there being a study on this in psychology before when we were talking about propaganda some time back. I'm sure a simple google search on propaganda would bring tons of results on that specific study (the one that I am thinking of was done early in the decade, I'm sure there were other new studies since and studies on propaganda from before that).

I truly wish we had better media in this country. People like Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, etc intentionally make it seem like the middle-class is glorious and they have more power than the other groups of people in this country. Guys like those incite hatred against the other groups of people in this country that are making much less than they are to protect their own huge salaries.

Doesn't Bill O'Reilly proudly say that he considers himself a middle-class member? I know he said that a couple times (on youtube videos, google it up). The truth is that he makes a few millions per year.

And most of the FOX watchers believe him when he says he is middle-class. :confusedshrug: I asked a conservative friend of mine how much he thinks O'Reilly makes every year - he told me $250,000. I told him that O'Reilly actually makes over 10 million every year, and I said right away that I have proof of it (in case if he interrupts me to ask for proof). INSTANTLY he starts to talk about how much money O'Reilly gives away to help out the poor. It was almost automatic as if he had to defend O'Reilly for some reason. It was so quick that I almost felt like it was a defense mechanism. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]And, what happens when the economy does rebound? Will CEOs kick it up to 1,000x what the average earner makes?

The point of this thread isn't how badly people in Cleveland are struggling. It is the re-distribution of wealth that has occurred in the last 50 years and the death of a healthy middle class.

Simply put, you can't have CEOs taking that big of a piece of the pie and still support a strong workforce with livable wages. It is literally impossible.

You can't expect the bottom 50% of the population to live on 1% of the nation's wealth and expect a strong middle class.[/QUOTE]

Dude it's the evolution of technology. Today it's all about knowledge-based economy; people go to school not for craftsmanship anymore but for knowledge-based jobs like Accounting, Law & Medicine. Machines are taking over...

Labor is diminishing; it's the evolution in technology that is killing the middle-class from opportunities to make money. A CEO makes this much because he's responsible for running billion dollar companies and maximizing stakeholder value; that in turn gives back to the community through huge tax payouts.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]hmm...well I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, not sure why it would really, but this country is spoiled...no question about it...

everyone is at the mall with an iphone shoved up thier ass facebooking each other while in line at Starbucks...yet I am supposed to beleive we have no middle class?....naw, we are fine.....for now anyway[/QUOTE]

You are so fu[COLOR="Black"]k[/COLOR]'n clueless it's not even laughable anymore; it's transitioned into sad.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]okay I am not saying that the CEOs making that much more is good...but do you honestly think we don't have a strong middle class?

I don't...[/QUOTE]

It's all based on experience as well; some people have had bad experiences with finding work or perhaps live in a city like (Cleveland) that is an absolute shit hole (no offense) and they're forced to over-exaggerate.

And then there are people like you who are on a different end of the spectrum; presumably.

[QUOTE=crosso√er][B]Dude it's the evolution of technology. [/B]Today it's all about knowledge-based economy; people go to school not for craftsmanship anymore but for knowledge-based jobs like Accounting, Law & Medicine. Machines are taking over...

Labor is diminishing; it's the evolution in technology that is killing the middle-class from opportunities to make money. A CEO makes this much because he's responsible for running billion dollar companies and maximizing stakeholder value; that in turn gives back to the community through huge tax payouts.[/QUOTE]

That has a lot to do with it as well. More jobs are going to those that are innovative and can combine their right and left brain.

Cheap credit masks how poor people really are. If credit were eliminated tomorrow, and people had to pay off their debt, there would be a revolution.

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]I've been to almost every major city in this country...[/QUOTE]

Having said that, it's quite sad you haven't really learned much from your experiences. I have no beef with you man. In certain facets, you're knowledgeable and quite intelligent at times, but in most you're purely clueless and incredibly small minded. I'm not trying to offend you; I just wish you'd realize going to your local mall and seeing people using iPhones doesn't equate to USA having an extravagant middle class.

[QUOTE=Legend of Josh]You are so fu[COLOR="Black"]k[/COLOR]'n clueless it's not even laughable anymore; it's transitioned into sad.[/QUOTE]
most of this country is spoiled...if you don't understand that then it is you that is clueless...

poor you on your computer, being held down by the man...

take a trip to Mexico...then $80k might seem like a lot to you...

[QUOTE=-playmaker-]most of this country is spoiled...if you don't understand that then it is you that is clueless...

poor you on your computer, being held down by the man...

take a trip to Mexico...then $80k might seem like a lot to you...[/QUOTE]

Borrowing doesn't make anybody spoiled.

[QUOTE=crosso√er]Dude it's the evolution of technology. Today it's all about knowledge-based economy; people go to school not for craftsmanship anymore but for knowledge-based jobs like Accounting, Law & Medicine. Machines are taking over...

Labor is diminishing; it's the evolution in technology that is killing the middle-class from opportunities to make money. A CEO makes this much because he's responsible for running billion dollar companies and maximizing stakeholder value; that in turn gives back to the community through huge tax payouts.[/QUOTE]
It isn't just that the economy is 'knowledge based' and the other kind of workers are no longer needed. Our country is still filled with companies that need things manufactured... Literally filled with them.

The problem is that trade agreements in the last 30 years like NAFTA have completely killed the industrial base in this country and, while we do use a lot of 'stuff,' almost none of that stuff is produced here. That means that a CEO will move his entire workforce out of the country and to India or China because it is slightly more cost-efficient.

The result of this is a greater bottom-line and a higher stock price, but that money only goes one place... To the top of the company. The few pennies that they do throw these workers in other countries do not even re-circulate in the US. The lack of tariffs and the existence of these trade agreements help one group of people... The super, super rich... The people at the top of these massive corporations.

The jobs that unskilled workers used to be able to do and support a family are totally gone. That money that those employees used to bring home in America and re-circulate on things like house payments, furniture, car payments, etc. is gone, as well.

It doesn't just impact the unskilled workers... College graduates might work in human resources or in PR departments for these big corporations, but they have literally cut back on everything now that there is no manufacturing taking place in this country anymore.

I mean, why do you need a human resources department if your human resources are in India?

The death of the middle class happened when the tariffs were thrown away, trade agreements signed and manufacturing fled so that CEOs could make 500x the average worker instead of 30x.

Thank Bush and the republicans that have ruined this country. They are on the wrong side of every issue.

[QUOTE=PHX_Phan]Borrowing doesn't make anybody spoiled.[/QUOTE]
where the money came from means nothing in terms of being spoiled...

if you make $80k a year, and are still leaving out of yor means, it doesn't mean you aren't spoiled, it just means you aren't good with money...

a 5 year old can be spoiled...

[QUOTE=crosso√er]It's all based on experience as well; some people have had bad experiences with finding work or perhaps live in a city like (Cleveland) that is an absolute shit hole (no offense) and they're forced to over-exaggerate.

And then there are people like you who are on a different end of the spectrum; presumably.[/QUOTE]
Cleveland isn't a 'sh!thole'... that is just a stupid thing to say and, yeah... It is offensive. What has happened to Cleveland can happen anywhere when greedy CEOs take their workforce overseas and from an area was dependent upon manufacturing.

The same thing has happened with the garment industry in New York City. It is dying... And it is sad.

[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Thank Bush and the republicans that have ruined this country. They are on the wrong side of every issue.[/QUOTE]
Do the democrats have a solution?

PT has been to the strip mall; of course he's an expert in class economics and sociology.

Anyway, just glad I'm not in the bottom 90%.

I think it should be painfully aware to everyone that supply side economics does not work.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]It isn't just that the economy is 'knowledge based' and the other kind of workers are no longer needed. Our countries are still filled with companies that need things manufactured... Literally filled with them.

The problem is that trade agreements in the last 30 years like NAFTA have completely killed the industrial base in this country and, while we do use a lot of 'stuff,' almost none of that stuff is produced here. That means that a CEO will move his entire workforce out of the country and to India or China because it is slightly more cost-efficient.

The result of this is a greater bottom-line and a higher stock price, but that money only goes one place... To the top of the company. The few pennies that they do throw these workers in other countries do not even re-circulate in the US. The lack of tariffs and the existence of these trade agreements help one group of people... The super, super rich... The people at the top of these massive corporations.

The jobs that unskilled workers used to be able to do and support a family are totally gone. That money that those employees used to bring home in America and re-circulate on things like house payments, furniture, car payments, etc. is gone, as well.

It doesn't just impact the unskilled workers... College graduates might work in human resources or in PR departments for these big corporations, but they have literally cut back on everything now that there is no manufacturing taking place in this country anymore.

I mean, why do you need a human resources department if your human resources are in India?

The death of the middle class happened when the tariffs were thrown away, trade agreements signed and manufacturing fled so that CEOs could make 500x the average worker instead of 30x.[/QUOTE]

Of course bro, globalization is another component of our struggles among many others.
But like I've already summarized our core problem; it's our proud notion of being a free-market country, and now the middle/low class people are complaining because incrementally the distribution (predictably mind you) has shifted to a point of no return. Communist Manifesto is perhaps the greatest ethical/economical article I've ever read (by Marx) regarding this very issue.

Further more; I am not disagreeing with you about CEO's making ridiculous amount of money but it's the economic structure that is detrimental to our struggles.

As far as the work-force; those UNSKILLED workers are REPLACED with machinery. You nit-picking about the HR department or claiming that certain manufacturing companies still need worker isn't a rebuttal. Those workers that work for Toyota for example; hardly do labor-intensive work, they use their knowledge to [I]operate[/I] the machinery.

I never said there aren't jobs like the "docks" or some miscellaneous labor intensive jobs that middle to low class families can get hired for; but there is a [B]significantly[/B] reduction in those jobs which is a direct causation of the problems you're highlighting.

Many companies also are transnational companies who hire people abroad (foreigners) to work for their subsidiaries; therefore, less Americans have those opportunities.

Bottom line; [I]it's the bed we made for ourselves, now sleep in it.[/I]
We had no problems with our economical structure (or distribution of wealth) until it became a serious problem. Being short-sighted isn't an excuse.

For those advocating the redistribution of wealth, how far should it go? How progressive should our progressive income taxes become? Forced redistribution does not help economic growth.

We must not just look at our current historic point of view in regards to the economy as well as the gross national product and class.
We need to go back when civilzation was created believe it or not.

There was once all who were equal , until civilization became structured.
Once commerce occurred the origins of class became RICH and POOR.
Eventually the poor wanted more , and then the Middle class evolved.
Middle class did not evolve from the rich.
Obviously America has a vast majority of middle class compared to the poor and as well as the rich.
But as Blackattack had stated the trend where not only revenue , tax's could be balanced from the majority (middle class) the economic turn has evolved into a top heavy society of a trend to Rich and less efficient (meaning more people that were on the edge of being poor are POOR)
The only way this cycle can be changed is what happened on black Friday , disarming the wealthy and reestablishing the wealth across our country.
Bush nearly toppled our country into depression , which would of been horrific for not only America but the world.
I am clueless to how our country gets the balance back to where the Middle Class sustains major influence on the wealth of our country and commerce.
However exporting jobs globally does not help.
Because I live in a rural forest region , I am aware that exporting of goods processed in other countrys and shipped back here , seems like a huge fail to me.
Go to Home Depot and you will see China stamped on lumber you buy , but the wood is actually from America.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Cleveland isn't a 'sh!thole'... that is just a stupid thing to say and, yeah... It is offensive. What has happened to Cleveland can happen anywhere when greedy CEOs take their workforce overseas and from an area was dependent upon manufacturing.

The same thing has happened with the garment industry in New York City. It is dying... And it is sad.[/QUOTE]

Cleveland became a shit hole because of greedy CEO's; it might be offensive but you just admitted of it being the truth.

Look, I know you're from Cleveland it's close to your heart. I've visited the city in 2009 and it was disgusting man. It does piss me off that this country is dominated by fortune 500 companies and people like you struggle; but it's something we should have dealt with a long time ago. Now you want change and force-feed the government to distribute wealth; it's plausible just not in the short-term, and by that I mean, not in your life time.

Good post, crosso√er. I will respond when I get a chance. I'm about to eat dinner and watch a documentary. Stay online if you can... I'm enjoying this back-and-forth.

[QUOTE=shlver]For those advocating the redistribution of wealth, how far should it go? How progressive should our progressive income taxes become? Forced redistribution does not help economic growth.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that this country *needs* redistribution of wealth. I'm saying that the redistribution has already happened and it has gone to the top.

Why is it 'redistribution' of wealth when workers feel like they should be paid a livable wage, but when CEOs go from making 30x the average worker's salary to 500x the average worker's salary, that isn't BLATANT redistribution?

[QUOTE=shlver]For those advocating the redistribution of wealth, how far should it go? How progressive should our progressive income taxes become? Forced redistribution does not help economic growth.[/QUOTE]

We have always been redistributing wealth. We have been redistributing it towards the top. How else do you think the imbalances were made? Do you think rich people worked harder or something? :lol

[QUOTE=DeuceWallaces]PT has been to the strip mall; of course he's an expert in class economics and sociology.

Anyway, just glad I'm not in the bottom 90%.[/QUOTE]
yes, I claimed to be economics expert...that's what I did

rather than juts point out that it looks like we have still have good money on those charts...

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Good post, crosso√er. I will respond when I get a chance. I'm about to eat dinner and watch a documentary. Stay online if you can... I'm enjoying this back-and-forth.



I'm not saying that this country *needs* redistribution of wealth. I'm saying that the redistribution has already happened and it has gone to the top.

Why is it 'redistribution' of wealth when workers feel like they should be paid a livable wage, but when CEOs go from making 30x the average worker's salary to 500x the average worker's salary, that isn't BLATANT redistribution?[/QUOTE]
Well, it is useless hand waving to discuss what is apparent. We need to discuss solutions. If the control of wealth being concentrated in the top 10% is a crisis then solutions should be discussed and that is what I meant by my question.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]We have always been redistributing wealth. We have been redistributing it towards the top. How else do you think the imbalances were made? Do you think rich people worked harder or something? :lol[/QUOTE]
Of course. Wealth shows a strong correlation with age. People tend to save as they grow older.

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]We have always been redistributing wealth. We have been redistributing it towards the top.[B] How else do you think the imbalances were made? Do you think rich people worked harder or something[/B]? :lol[/QUOTE]

No, it's a fundamental concept of a free-market, something America embedded for decades. That concept is Supply & Demand; that's what causes the "imbalance".

Like someone already mentioned (a terrific point); before you go to school, learn about the economy first. Don't just go pursue your hobby and subsequently complain about "inequality" or "distribution of wealth"; before you actually select a program, make sure your monetary needs are met (if that is a primary concern of yours for attending that specific program).

It is YOUR responsibility not the billionaires who make fortunes.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Cleveland isn't a 'sh!thole'... that is just a stupid thing to say and, yeah... It is offensive. What has happened to Cleveland can happen anywhere when greedy CEOs take their workforce overseas and from an area was dependent upon manufacturing.

The same thing has happened with the garment industry in New York City. It is dying... And it is sad.[/QUOTE]
CEO's are investors with capital at risk. Take for example Buffet. Look at his list of CEO's and try to find an example of excess compensation. You won't find it because the shareholders monitor CEO pay also.

The problem is NOT capitalism. The problem is the deterioration of capitalism in our country, being replaced with socialist and tyrannical rule. The federal reserve is not an instrument of capitalism. The heavy regulation on our businesses is not an instrument of capitalism.

If you don't know what I'm talking about in that last paragraph, yet you think the problem is capitalism.. you need to do more research before you become part of the political movement in America that looks to continue to deteriorate capitalism, in favor of socialist legislation.

[QUOTE=shlver]Of course. Wealth shows a strong correlation with age. People tend to save as they grow older.[/QUOTE]

Exactly; especially with all the tax incentives emerging.

[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]It isn't about entitlement. You are talking about getting things for free. I'm talking about people being paid a livable income for jobs that were once able to support the middle class and now -- with CEOs taking 10 times the money that they used to out of the pot (literally, 10-20 times) -- those jobs cannot support a single person, let alone an entire family.

Why do CEOs need to earn 500x what an average worker in a company makes? Weren't they satisfied with *only* taking 30x the income?[/QUOTE]

too damn busy with work to respond to all i'd like to but just a few quick things.

1. it's a very complex issue to discuss, regardless of the casual cliches thrown around

2. many of those graphs are political and may be deceptive. example:

[IMG]http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2011/inequality-who%27swinning_3.png[/IMG]

they clearly pick the years the housing bubble burst. they could pick only 2004-2006 and it would be a rosy outlook. btw - [B]the majority of americans own stock[/B], so that +720 affects most through pensions, 401k's, investments...

and why no mention of who is paying what % of taxes? would seem to be helpful in a fair debate. how about the wealth they create (although I'd bet that is going down too compared to the past).



[IMG]http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2011/inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png[/IMG]
if you look you'll see that the wealthiest line goes up sharply during the boom times. you'll see reagan, the internet bubble and burst (95-99), and the housing bubble (03-07). i'd bet that top line had dipped accordingly with the crash.

also regarding that line, the wealthy have the money to invest in stocks, houses, business, so when the booms come they benefit the most. compound interest helps too. :D it also benefits everyone.

most of the posts here are at least partially right. thanks to globalization and many other factors, the middle class will never be the same. also true that we don't have it all that bad.






[QUOTE=bladefd]I do agree with you that a large number of the elite wealthy are republicans in this country. I could have probably put that in someplace in OP, but I just wanted to keep my opinion out of the OP as much as possible without starting the thread outright bashing people.

As for the voting aspect that you mentioned, I think it all boils down to what people watch or read throughout their daily life that determines what they do when they go to vote. There is a saying that says something like "a few control the minds of many."

Basically that is how successful propaganda works. What information a few guys put out will determine who wins the election when the time comes. It is a definitely disturbing how quickly a FEW guys are able to incite everyone that is listening/watching/reading them just based on the wording and tone that they use.

I remember reading there being a study on this in psychology before when we were talking about propaganda some time back. I'm sure a simple google search on propaganda would bring tons of results on that specific study (the one that I am thinking of was done early in the decade, I'm sure there were other new studies since and studies on propaganda from before that).

I truly wish we had better media in this country. People like Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, etc intentionally make it seem like the middle-class is glorious and they have more power than the other groups of people in this country. Guys like those incite hatred against the other groups of people in this country that are making much less than they are to protect their own huge salaries.

Doesn't Bill O'Reilly proudly say that he considers himself a middle-class member? I know he said that a couple times (on youtube videos, google it up). The truth is that he makes a few millions per year.

And most of the FOX watchers believe him when he says he is middle-class. :confusedshrug: I asked a conservative friend of mine how much he thinks O'Reilly makes every year - he told me $250,000. I told him that O'Reilly actually makes over 10 million every year, and I said right away that I have proof of it (in case if he interrupts me to ask for proof). INSTANTLY he starts to talk about how much money O'Reilly gives away to help out the poor. It was almost automatic as if he had to defend O'Reilly for some reason. It was so quick that I almost felt like it was a defense mechanism. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

wow - from "i don't want to inject politics" to all this. it was obvious when you posted a link from mother jones, but i guess you lasted 4 pages.

1. saying beck and o'reilly fool the middle class into thinking they have it good is absurd. [B]"if they only knew the truth"[/B] is a sad refrain from either side.

2. you know why o'reilly makes all that money? cause he makes them a ton and is therefore worth every penny! not exactly sure what's wrong with that. he did come from a middle class background from what i understand and gives a boatload to charity.

if you actually watched you'll find that o'reilly has more varied view points than most news/opinion shows on tv. i guess that doesn't matter. you only want one opinion given.

btw: democrats and republicans supported nafta. when ross perot was attacking it, you know who debated him in favor of nafta?

[IMG]http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/OPINION/05/28/larry.kings.top.5/story.nafta.debate.lkl.cnn.jpg[/IMG]



[QUOTE=RoseCity07]Thank Bush and the republicans that have ruined this country. They are on the wrong side of every issue.[/QUOTE]
yeah. not one single issue that caused... ah nevermind.


[QUOTE=crosso√er]Cleveland became a shit hole because of greedy CEO's; it might be offensive but you just admitted of it being the truth.

Look, I know you're from Cleveland it's close to your heart. I've visited the city in 2009 and it was disgusting man. It does piss me off that this country is dominated by fortune 500 companies and people like you struggle; but it's something we should have dealt with a long time ago. Now you want change and force-feed the government to distribute wealth; it's plausible just not in the short-term, and by that I mean, not in your life time.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]it's not greedy CEO's for damn sake! [/COLOR] don't you realize that when business is faced with cheaper labor and competion that is using it, they are usually forced to adapt or go under?

you mentioned cleveland. i have family from the steel mill days. greedy CEO's didn't kill the mills, just like they didn't kill the car industry. cheap foreign competition and labor did it to [B]both[/B]!

[B]if all the ceo's got paid nothing, it wouldn't do a thing to solve the problem.[/B] :facepalm

i hate it as much as anyone, but class warefare doesn't help.

[QUOTE=3ptShooter]
wow - from "i don't want to inject politics" to all this. it was obvious when you posted a link from mother jones, but i guess you lasted 4 pages.

1. saying beck and o'reilly fool the middle class into thinking they have it good is absurd. [B]"if they only knew the truth"[/B] is a sad refrain from either side.

2. you know why o'reilly makes all that money? cause he makes them a ton and is therefore worth every penny! not exactly sure what's wrong with that. he did come from a middle class background from what i understand and gives a boatload to charity.

if you actually watched you'll find that o'reilly has more varied view points than most news/opinion shows on tv. i guess that doesn't matter. you only want one opinion given.
[/QUOTE]

1) You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that Beck/O'reilly make the middle-class think they have it good.

What I did say is that Beck/O'reilly make it seem like the middle-class is glorious and you have the freedom to vote for who you want in power. They basically make it seem like it is the middle-class that has the numbers so they can decide whoever they want to put into office. I wish that is how it worked..

The people do not directly vote for the president due to the electoral college; a representative in the electoral college does not necessarily need to side with the popular vote if they don't want to. Also, the people running for presidency also usually need to have money to run to begin with. Maybe not big money but they need decent money to start a political campaign for presidency. How many middle-class people have successfully run for a presidency campaign in the last 50 years? By middle-class I'm talking about people with salaries around 50k-60k or under.

Then there is propaganda that changes who has a specific piece of knowledge; if somebody doesn't want to show you a specific piece of information about somebody, they won't. They can easily play around it or change the wording/tone to try to make an outrage out of something minuscule. That was my point to the guy I was quoting since he was talking about how the voting system is a mess.

2) You're right, he has worked his way up the ladder. He makes millions for Fox and in return, FOX has to repay a fraction of what he makes for FOX. I have no problem with him making what he makes. Hell, he could be getting paid $20 million per year, nothing wrong with it. What I have a problem with though is him considering himself part of the middle-class. He was a middle-class member once, but he is not a middle-class member anymore. Why does he say he is middle-class when he clearly isn't?

3) No, Bill O'Reilly doesn't have as varied viewpoint as you say. Want to see? Go on youtube and search up Bill O'Reilly. Go through video after video of O'Reilly talking over the years. That's all I will say.

btw - I don't want to single out Beck/O'Reilly. The left side also has plenty of crazy people like Beck/O'Reilly, Olbermann and Maher are a similar way when it comes to inciting people on their side against the other side. Media has become an issue around here as I mentioned multiple times.

[QUOTE=bladefd]1) You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that Beck/O'reilly make the middle-class think they have it good.

What I did say is that Beck/O'reilly make it seem like the middle-class is glorious and you have the freedom to vote for who you want in power. They basically make it seem like it is the middle-class that has the numbers so they can decide whoever they want to put into office. I wish that is how it worked..

[B]The people do not directly vote for the president due to the electoral college; a representative in the electoral college does not necessarily need to side with the popular vote if they don't want to.[/B]

Then there is propaganda that changes who has a specific piece of knowledge; if somebody doesn't want to show you a specific piece of information about somebody, they won't. They can easily play around it or change the wording/tone to try to make an outrage out of something minuscule. That was my point to the guy I was quoting since he was talking about how the voting system is a mess.

2) You're right, he has worked his way up the ladder. He makes millions for Fox and in return, FOX has to repay a fraction of what he makes for FOX. I have no problem with him making what he makes. Hell, he could be getting paid $20 million per year, nothing wrong with it. What I have a problem with though is him considering himself part of the middle-class. He was a middle-class member once, but he is not a middle-class member anymore. Why does he say he is middle-class when he clearly isn't?

3) No, Bill O'Reilly doesn't have as varied viewpoint as you say. Want to see? Go on youtube and search up Bill O'Reilly. Go through video after video of O'Reilly talking over the years. That's all I will say.

btw - I don't want to single out Beck/O'Reilly. The left side also has plenty of crazy people like Beck/O'Reilly, Olbermann and Maher are a similar way when it comes to inciting people on their side against the other side. Media has become an issue around here as I mentioned multiple times.[/QUOTE]
Which has only happened like twice and only one candidate has lost with the majority popular vote.