How the **** did this turn into an argument about who's better than Kobe and who's not? :hammerhead:
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How the **** did this turn into an argument about who's better than Kobe and who's not? :hammerhead:
[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]so Michael did not deserve his MVPs in the 90's? His team won 55 games without him, and he didn't have to do that much more than Kobe now. (That's not saying that he's not better than Kobe, only the Bulls were about as much better as the Lakers now as MJ is better than Kobe)[/QUOTE]
what I mean is...the lakers have guys who contributing and taking the pressure off of kobe...and plus kobe didnt need to dominate a game other than the 52 point game against the Jazz...plus, kobe's stats are low comming into this season...this might be due to the fack that hes comming off the injury. and you can tell that he is not at the level that hes usually at....
Jordan deserved MVP because he was dominate every night with a supporting cast...
and yes the Bulls won 50 + in 93-94 without him, we were bounced out of the palyoffs in the second round by....I dont even want to talk about it you know what happened....but I dont think that we would of beat the Pacers in the ECF or I dont think that we would of had a chance against the Rockets without Jordan..
[QUOTE=lakers-city]you just described michael jordan and tim duncan when they won mvp, difference is kobe doesnt have pippen or an all-around team like duncan had.[/QUOTE]
the players that you mentioned when they won MVP were dominate in the seasons that they played
kobe is on his way to win over 50 games easily, the difference would be ?
[QUOTE=DieHardBullsFan]the players that you mentioned when they won MVP were dominate in the seasons that they played[/QUOTE]
In 96 Jordan put up 30/6/4/ which is great but not quite dominant stats, although he did dominate
Kobe could win if he goes 29/6/5 48.5% shooting, top 3 seed. But it isnt happening.
[QUOTE=Younggrease]In 96 Jordan put up 30/6/4/ which is great but not quite dominant stats, although he did dominate
[/QUOTE]
Fact is, as much as Lakers-City et al. want to pretend that Kobe is performing as well as Jordan did when he won his MVP's, that is clearly false. Kobe is having a good (not great) season by his standards, and it certainly isn't close to any of Jordan's championship seasons. In fact, it wasn't until age 35 when Jordan had as poor a statistical season as Kobe is having this year (thus far; I expect his numbers to improve), and even that year (1998) might have been better when you account for the fact that he led the Bulls to a 25-11 record [I]without[/I] Pippen to start the season while having similar statistical output to Kobe this year.
And lol @ saying that 30/6/4 (actually, it was 30.4/6.6/4.3/2.2 on 49.5% shooting, to be precise) isn't dominant. This was before the inflated perimeter scoring era, kiddies. And his PER that year was 29.4, which was a full 1.3 points above the best statistical season by any player last season, so I guess no one last season was dominant... :rolleyes:
[quote]Kobe could win if he goes 29/6/5 48.5% shooting, top 3 seed. But it isnt happening.[/quote]
What part isn't happening? The numbers or the wins? Those would be respectable MVP-level numbers imo. I'd even say something like 28/6/5 on 48% shooting would do it provided that LA wins 53+ games, unless someone else really turns it up.
[QUOTE]fact, it wasn't until age 35 when Jordan had as poor a statistical season as Kobe is having this year[/QUOTE]
Kobe is having a "poor" season? Even if we don't consider the fact that he's playing his way into shape, this is too much (even from you, Lokster) :oldlol:
translation = im a jordan groupie who needs to grab at straws whenever the most minimal statistical mistake is made in a post.
kobe is having the best shooting season of his career, despite having the same scrubs he had last year the lakers still have a great record.
seriously, get off jordan's d*ck and learn to accept the guy is retired and other players from present time dont need to live up to HIS standards to win the mvp.
why bring up jordan's age in the 97 and 98 seasons ? the voters dont give a shiiit about a players age.
keep those bs PER stats in that useless basketball reference site and watch some games, then make judgements.
[QUOTE=konex]Kobe is having a "poor" season? Even if we don't consider the fact that he's playing his way into shape, this is too much (even from you, Lokster) :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
"As poor as" implies a comparison. Of course Kobe isn't having a poor season. He's having a great season, in fact. But relative to Jordan's seasons, it's poor (statistically). Tell your fellow Laker groupies not to bring up the comparison if they can't handle the heat. :D
[QUOTE=Lakers-City]seriously, kobe is having the best shooting season of his career despite having the same scrubs he had last year the lakers still have a great record.
[/QUOTE]
Of course he's having the best shooting season of his career -- he's also averaging a 3 year low in ppg. No coincidence there.
lol @ "the same scrubs." Those "scrubs" are sure playing well for him, what with Odom's 18/9/5, Walton's 13/5/4 and league-leading 3-pt %, and the great post play from Bynum and Brown (especially defensively).
[quote]seriously, get off jordan's d*ck and learn to apreciate other players.[/quote]
Oh, wait -- you must be under the impression that it was [b]I[/b] who brought Jordan's name up in this conversation. Learn to read. Lakers fans seem to have the market on illiteracy cornered. :hammerhead:
What makes it doubly humorous is that it was [i]you[/i] who brought up Jordan's name, and now you're crying foul. :roll: Rich.
[QUOTE]why bring up jordan's age in the 97 and 98 seasons ? the voters dont give a shiiit about a players age.
[/QUOTE]
Because you were acting as if Kobe was beasting this season, and as if his season was equivalent to Jordan's MVP seasons. Hint: it's not.
[quote]seriously, keep those bs PER stats in that useless basketball reference site and watch some games, then make judgements.[/quote]
Translation: I refuse to listen to any fact, stat etc. that doesn't agree with my preconceptions.
I [i]do[/i] watch games -- Lakers games, even. And Kobe is having a great season, as are several of his teammates, and the team as a whole is playing very cohesively. But don't try to make his season into something it's not (thus far).
so you are another statbiitch who uses horscrap stats over a true judgement based on watching games ? :hammerhead:
jordan won mvp in a year he scored 28 ppg on 46%, so ? :confusedshrug:
his team won 55 without him, let me see this lakers win 55 without kobe to ranks them as anything above scrubs.
kobe mvp :roll:
its a race between nash, duncan, dirk, boozer right now.
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]kobe mvp :roll:
its a race between nash, duncan, dirk, boozer right now.[/QUOTE]
Spurs got beat by the Lakers :roll: :roll:
there's a reason why kobe should win it over duncan........
so ? one game doesnt mean anything, the spurs are simply a better team, cant wait til they knock the fc,k out of dobe and the lakers :applause:
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]so ? one game doesnt mean anything, the spurs are simply a better team, cant wait til they knock the fc,k out of dobe and the lakers :applause:[/QUOTE]
The Lakers are going to the WCF. If the Spurs happen to be there, they will be knocked out. Book it. :rockon:
:roll: at lakers on the west finals
:roll: :roll: :roll: at the lakers beating the spurs on the playoffs
[QUOTE=DreamRockets]:roll: at lakers on the west finals
:roll: :roll: :roll: at the lakers beating the spurs on the playoffs[/QUOTE]
The Lakers are winning the Championship. Spurs....:roll: :roll: :roll: Duncan Dougnuts isn't going anywhere...:roll: :roll:
Keep on dreaming Mr. Rockets
kobe doesn't have shaq's coat-tails to ride anymore, nash, duncan or dirk are gonna knock the fck outta kobe, i cant wait :pimp:
I don't know why all this discussion about Kobe's stats and MJ's stats and all that jazz. Kobe isn't likely to be the MVP for a simple reason.
He's a d!ck. People don't like him, and fair or not, it affects the voting. The MVP award isn't awarded by a computer calculating who deserved it, but human beings affected by biases.
Nash is a likeable guy, and it sure as hell helps. Just look at him. He comes off as the kind of guy who if you ran into him in a bar would buy you a drink and then talk ball with you all night. Kobe comes off as a guy who at a bar wouldn't even give you an autograph because he'd be too busy raping white girls or something.
For Kobe to win the MVP award, he has to be clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the field. Just being up there won't cut it.
Wow. Does EVERY topic have to turn into Kobe vs. Jordan?
[QUOTE=BlackVVaves]Wow. Does EVERY topic have to turn into Kobe vs. Jordan?[/QUOTE]
Tell it to Lakers-city. He's the one who brought it up.
Still wondering how a topic about Nash winning his 3rd MVP turned into a Kobe vs. Jordan debate. Another topic ruined, whoever is responsible for it....
[QUOTE=neverfail]unlike last year, this year is tough to predict. Boozer,Yao, dirk and [B]dunken[/B], nash and kobe all have their chances. [B]again it's unlikely come from east, [/B][B]west got award consistently for many years[/B], [B]unless Cavs top in east[/B] which is unlikely IMO.:pimp:[/QUOTE]
ewwwww
[QUOTE=SomeBunghole]I don't know why all this discussion about Kobe's stats and MJ's stats and all that jazz. Kobe isn't likely to be the MVP for a simple reason.
People don't like him, and fair or not, it affects the voting. The MVP award isn't awarded by a computer calculating who deserved it, but human beings affected by biases.
For Kobe to win the MVP award, he has to be clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the field. Just being up there won't cut it.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="5"]Sad [/SIZE]but true, I could remember b4 the 05-06 season started, all the voters and sports writters were saying that the Lakers had [I]NO CHANCE[/I] of making the playoffs, and if they did, then Kobe should be the MVP.
Kobe won the scoring title and took the Lakers to the playoffs but was overlooked as an MVP, finishing behind Nash, LBJ, and Dirk. Some voters even left him out of their valot.
Their Excuse last year was...
[I]HE SHOT THE BALL TOO MUCH[/I],
Now he's sharing the ball and all they will say to shaft him out of MVP is
[I]HIS STATS ARE NOT WHAT THEY WERE LAST YEAR.[/I]
No Matter what, theyll find an excuse NOT TO GIVE IT TO KOBE.
I think people are coming around on Kobe little by little
I think everyone is surprised by how good the Lakers are actually doing
I think the single biggest factor in MVP selection is the team's performance versus the team's expected performance
Steve Nash won and a big reason each season was that the Suns weren't expected to win as much as they did
This year they are expected by many to win it all
Hence he wont win
Lakers have lower expectations and are exceeding them
Hence Kobe wins
im thinking if the suns win 66 games then nash has a chance...otherwise i doubt they woud even think of it
[QUOTE=lakers-city]translation = im a jordan groupie who needs to grab at straws whenever the most minimal statistical mistake is made in a post.
kobe is having the best shooting season of his career, despite having the same scrubs he had last year the lakers still have a great record.
seriously, get off jordan's d*ck and learn to accept the guy is retired and other players from present time dont need to live up to HIS standards to win the mvp.
why bring up jordan's age in the 97 and 98 seasons ? the voters dont give a shiiit about a players age.
keep those bs PER stats in that useless basketball reference site and watch some games, then make judgements.[/QUOTE]
first-- stop referring to kobe's teammates as scrubs. Lamar Odom is better than anyone Iverson, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce has ever played with and all them guys gone further in the playoffs and had better regular season win totals than Kobe did post-Shaq. Iverson and Pierce have led a cast of worse players than what Kobe has to lengthy playoff runs.
The whole "Kobe has CBA teammates" "take kobe off the team and lakers are the worse team in the league" logic doesn't apply anymore, I never believed it even last year, but this year's just flat out been proven false.
Jordan's age is always relevant simply becausae his final 3 Bulls seasons he was technically WAY OUT OF HIS PRIME. To do what he did at age 34, 35, 36 is amazing. Kobe fans also always bring up Jordan's later years to try to disparage him, such as how Jordan no longer guarded the opposing team's best players, or how his shooting % dropped a bit and steals numbers went down... they use those stats to try to disparage Jordan, but when you factor in his age, those are freaking amazing numbers. So Jordan's age should always be mentioned to counter Laker fans lame attempts. You Laker fans are a sneaky bunch, you guys tend to use prime Kobe to compare with , say 38 year old Jordan (and you guys obviously leave out his age), and try to pass that off as a legit comparison between the two.
Guys, look at page 4, and read Helige and Laker-citys posts, look at their logic, Helige implies Lakers are superior to Spurs and have a better shot at the championship becasue they beat the Spurs ONE GAME. Laker logic brings up Bulls winning 55 in 94 and how Kobe's teammates right now can't win 55 without Kobe. Um, but you add Jordan to the 94 bulls and it's championship, you add kobe to this year's lakers and its another first round exit......
I feel sorry for the legit, logical Laker fans on here, you guys have to fight an uphill battle at ISH everyday because of these clowns. Seriously, read their posts... it's too ridiculous for words.
[QUOTE=Maximum310][SIZE="5"]Sad [/SIZE]but true, I could remember b4 the 05-06 season started, all the voters and sports writters were saying that the Lakers had [I]NO CHANCE[/I] of making the playoffs, and if they did, then Kobe should be the MVP.
Kobe won the scoring title and took the Lakers to the playoffs but was overlooked as an MVP, finishing behind Nash, LBJ, and Dirk. Some voters even left him out of their valot.
Their Excuse last year was...
[I]HE SHOT THE BALL TOO MUCH[/I],
Now he's sharing the ball and all they will say to shaft him out of MVP is
[I]HIS STATS ARE NOT WHAT THEY WERE LAST YEAR.[/I]
No Matter what, theyll find an excuse NOT TO GIVE IT TO KOBE.[/QUOTE]
look, Kobe had a case for MVP last year, but to put him up there right now is just silly. He simply hasn't been dominant enough, there were plenty of games this year where Odom was the best player on the court. And the Lakers won a few games where he didn't play.
Kobe's still a top player but how excatly is he worthy of MVP right now over guys who have carried their teams and put up sick numbers all year? Like Boozer, Nash, or even Dirk>?
Bryant's not winning an MVP award this year... I'm not even sure why his name is being brought up. People completely left if off of their ballots last year. He has no chance this year.
I don't have anything against him but I sincerely hope Steve Nash doesn't win his third in a row, I just don't think he's worthy of that at all when its not like there's nobody competing for it. This year I think LBJ, Kobe or Dirk will take it if not them then it'll be an outsider nobody figured on taking the awards, but not nash.
If the Lakers are among the top teams in the league Kobe has a legit shot at MVP. Its really very simple...be the best player on the best team.
The problem for the hard core Laker fans is that we all knowthat they will not wind upo with the best record in the League.
So you are relying on contraversy as to the "best player" or the "best team". So if the Jazz wind up with the best record in the L, and Boozer is the 20-10 guy who got them there (and you know people will argue that 10rpg = defense, when we all know that Boozer is not a defender) , Kobe will have a tough time getting the nod from a 3rd place Laker team.
If, however, LA = Phx from last year (lead the Div but 3rd best record) and SA has the best record but Timmy is only Timmy from last year, and Dall is 2nd, and Dirk is only as good as Dirk from last year, and the Lakers are 3rd--it could pass down to Kobe the same way it went to Nash - especially if this month-long Odom injury doesn't hurt them too much.
Personally, if I had as vote, right now, I'm going with D.Howard. Best player on the best team in his conference, actually is defending, is the best player on that team...and on the "where would they be without" test..Orlando ranks pretty low. Nelson,Hill,Hedo,Darko,Battie - with Arroyo off the bench. That's a 15 win team - at best.
ohh- and on topic, its going to be real tough for Nash to win. Phx will not significantly improve from last year, he doesn't have the "all new teammates" angle anymore. But if everything isd the same as last year (SA/Dal/Phx) and they decide that TD is still not good enough, I guess he still has a shot.
well, will he?
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]well, will he?[/QUOTE]
Wilt making a clutch shot in his prime or Nash winning a third MVP in his prime? What's more likely?
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]Wilt making a clutch shot in his prime or Nash winning a third MVP in his prime? What's more likely?[/QUOTE]
:roll:
What happened to the Lakers fanbase? They're all so civilized in this thread. And now they're represented by passive-aggressive clowns like Deuce.