Top 3 Power Forwards of All-Time

[QUOTE=raiderfan19]The "Peak kg was light years above Dirk" argument is flat out revisionist history bullshit. 2004 KG was light years above 2004 Dirk because that was KGs best year and Dirk's worst. Other than that? They were close with KG probably having a slight edge from about 1999-2004. 2005 was close but different. Dirk has been clearly better since 2006 though. I just dont see how when they played at the same time and dirks been better for as many seasons already(and was MUCH closer in several of them than KG is now) and has so many more left that you rank KG higher.[/QUOTE]

Exactly this.

Not to mention that Dirk outplayed KG in a playoff series in 02.

Total revisionist history. KG definitely had a better "peak", but saying its not close or light years above is silly.

Just look at the career playoff numbers:

26/11/3 on 59% TS for Dirk

20/11/4 on 52% TS for KG

Yes, KG is a much better defender. But Dirk is a much better scorer and clutch player.

The idea that KG is clearly superior to Dirk is laughable. That gap has been small for sometime now and continues to get smaller and smaller.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Exactly this.

Not to mention that Dirk outplayed KG in a playoff series in 02.

Total revisionist history. KG definitely had a better "peak", but saying its not close or light years above is silly.

Just look at the career playoff numbers:

[B]26/11/3 on 59% TS for Dirk

20/11/4 on 52% TS for KG
[/B]
Yes, KG is a much better defender. But Dirk is a much better scorer and clutch player.

The idea that KG is clearly superior to Dirk is laughable. That gap has been small for sometime now and continues to get smaller and smaller.[/QUOTE]
That's pretty incredible.

04 KG was better than any version of Dirk by a noticeable amount IMO. Dirks longevity and continued playoff runs will help him in the long run in terms of all time ranking, but nothing changes the advantage KG had over Dirk in their effective primes.

[QUOTE=Scoooter]That's pretty incredible.[/QUOTE]

People don't understand the kind of company Dirk is in with his playoff career.

He is tied with Jerry West for the most 30 point games in elimination games in NBA history.

He is one of 4 players all time to average over 25 points and 10 boards. The other three are Baylor/Hakeem/Pettit.

Dirk's teams have never lost a game 7. 5-0 in do or die games. Dirk has had 3 game 7's with over 30 and 10.

Dirk has now made the conference finals three different times with three completely different teams.

Dirk is 7th all time in playoff PER.

Dirk is 4th all time in win shares per 48 minutes in the playoffs.

Dirk is 10th all time in ppg in the playoffs.

And a bunch of other shit as well.

He's a legend. One of the all time greats and definitely in the same class as KG as a player.

[QUOTE=chazzy]04 KG was better than any version of Dirk by a noticeable amount IMO. Dirks longevity and continued playoff runs will help him in the long run in terms of all time ranking, but nothing changes the advantage KG had over Dirk in their effective primes.[/QUOTE]

KG's peak of 03/04/05 is simply staggering how good it was.

Basically averaging 23 points 14 boards 6 assists while playing all time great defense. Only Shaq and Duncan and Lebron can touch that in this era and not many more players all time can.

Thats the main reason I rank KG over Dirk still.

[QUOTE=MavsPoke]No reason to rank KG that high unless you fall for him screaming at the camera in a Celtics uniform and thumping his chest. If you fell for that act then I just feel sorry for you.[/QUOTE]
That's just an aside to someone who's been a premier 1st-team defender for this past entire decade as well as one of 4 players to win MVP AND DPOY (Jordan, Robinson and Hakeem being the others). The guy can def. be dirty and be a thug (one wonders how many illegal screens were set) but one can't deny his elite skill on both ends of the court during his prime.

Duncan
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk

[QUOTE=bdreason]Duncan
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk[/QUOTE]

Pettit....

There is Duncan as the clear cut best in my opinion.

Then you have the group of:

pettit
kg
malone
barkley
dirk

i don't really care how people rank those guys....although dirk should be towards the end and pettit should be towards the top

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Pettit....

There is Duncan as the clear cut best in my opinion.

Then you have the group of:

pettit
kg
malone
barkley
dirk

i don't really care how people rank those guys....although dirk should be towards the end and pettit should be towards the top[/QUOTE]
Roughly where do you rank Malone now? I remember you had him above Kobe at like 13 or 12 a year ago.. but it seems you've caught onto the way everyone does their rankings here now.

Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk
Mchale? Pettit? Hayes?

Duncan isn't on this list because he's a Center.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Roughly where do you rank Malone now? I remember you had him above Kobe at like 13 or 12 a year ago.. but it seems you've caught onto the way everyone does their rankings here now.[/QUOTE]

it depends on how we do the rankings.

if its a combination of everything......I rank Kobe at 10 and Malone around 15 or so.

If its solely who I think are the best players of all time. I rank Malone around 12 and Kobe around 13 to 15.

I'd have to think more about it though. But something like that.

Well as far as Dirk's legendary playoff run goes it's been amazing to see through the years and I'm glad to have witnessed it.

Ranking the PF position is very iffy since all players of recent greatness hit it at different strides, but that can be said about any position.

Clear cut would be

Duncan/Malone/Barkley/KG in any order and whatever your team needs the greatest winner of them is Duncan the most skill is probably KG or Barkley and the one that you know will suit up and give you points for sure is Malone.

Now just below not much or so is Dirk/Pettit/Mchale/Elvin Hayes

You can't go wrong with either of these guys and the funny thing between this tier is that most of these guys are actual winners. Pettits career basically was his prime but comp and era can hinder him but if on an even playing field hes in the first tier no doubt. Same with Dirk for playoff dominance.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]it depends on how we do the rankings.

if its a combination of everything......I rank Kobe at 10 and Malone around 15 or so.

If its solely who I think are the best players of all time. I rank Malone around 12 and Kobe around 13 to 15.

I'd have to think more about it though. But something like that.[/QUOTE]
I see.. but you think if Dirk plays great for a couple more years he'll surpass Malone?

[QUOTE=chazzy]I see.. but you think if Dirk plays great for a couple more years he'll surpass Malone?[/QUOTE]

In which version?

Who I think the better player is? No, Dirk would have to play 4 or 5 more quality years for that to happen.

For the version that people use here that weighs heavily accolades and titles...etc.? It would take Dirk winning a title and finals MVP and playing 2 or 3 more elite years to surpass malone for me.

Not that many players separate these guys right now.

Dirk is right around the 25th best player of all time for me. Malone is right around the 15th best player of all time for me.

If Dirk adds a title and finals mvp.....he's going to move up in a big way.

I love Dirk about as much as anyone, but there's no way he's greater than Timmy, who was doing it on both sides of the floor and winning titles as well. I'd probably put him alongside Malone, who was a great scorer too but wasn't really known for his defensive efforts.

[QUOTE=chazzy]I see.. but you think if Dirk plays great for a couple more years he'll surpass Malone?[/QUOTE]

I know we are talking at power forwards, but really what does a guy like Dr. J have on Dirk as a player?

I watched all of Dr. J's NBA career and at no point while watching Dirk do I think Dr. J had a bigger impact on the game as a player. I personally think Dirk is a better player, but Dirk needs to add to his resume a little to reach the Dr. J level.

Dirk has as good or better numbers. The only thing Dirk is missing is a title and a few more years of longevity.

I think a lot of people get caught up in thinking some of the older players are untouchable.

Yeah, he could have a huge legacy boost if he continues to play like this and lead this particular team to a title. Not to jump the gun, but if they manage to win it all this year.. this team's window is slightly bigger than it appears as they'll get Butler and Roddy back. I don't see Dirk declining too much within the next two years either.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Yeah, he could have a huge legacy boost if he continues to play like this and lead this particular team to a title. Not to jump the gun, but if they manage to win it all this year.. this team's window is slightly bigger than it appears as they'll get Butler and Roddy back. I don't see Dirk declining too much within the next two years either.[/QUOTE]

Butler is a question mark. We are obviously going to for sure sign Chandler. I'm not sure if we will be able to afford Butler. Which makes it even worse that we didn't trade him at the deadline.

Obviously I'm not complaining because we have had a great run, but we sure could use a little bit better option other than stevenson/peja. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

And we have to sign Barea as well. Not sure we keep him. Which truthfully will be fine because there really isn't room for both roddy and barea. Roddy just has to prove he's worth it this summer or we need to trade him.

Our team could look a little different. Butler/Stevenson/Barea could all be gone depending on what happens. Chandler is a lock to be signed though. No way Cuban lets him go. People in Dallas love him and he's been everything we've asked for and more.

And I really wouldn't mind that. Brewer and Roddy have more talent than stevenson and barea....but part of me thinks Cuban won't let barea go.

LOL...now you've got me thinking. I'm not exactly sure what is going to happen.

[QUOTE=bdreason]Duncan
Barkley
Malone
KG
Dirk[/QUOTE]
i agree

[QUOTE=chazzy]Yeah, he could have a huge legacy boost if he continues to play like this and lead this particular team to a title. Not to jump the gun, but if they manage to win it all this year.. this team's window is slightly bigger than it appears as they'll get Butler and Roddy back. I don't see Dirk declining too much within the next two years either.[/QUOTE]

If we do make the finals, it will boost dirk's legacy up a little. That alone is extremely impressive for Dirk and this team.

But its not just about one year. If Dirk wants to crack the top 15 he'll need to not only win a title and finals mvp at some point, but also play another 4 or 5 years at a high level.

That is some rare air in the top 15 tier all time. Dirk has a long way to go to get there.

I'm just glad he's finally getting credit as one of the best players ever. Thats more than enough for me.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Butler is a question mark. We are obviously going to for sure sign Chandler. I'm not sure if we will be able to afford Butler. Which makes it even worse that we didn't trade him at the deadline.

Obviously I'm not complaining because we have had a great run, but we sure could use a little bit better option other than stevenson/peja. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

And we have to sign Barea as well. Not sure we keep him. Which truthfully will be fine because there really isn't room for both roddy and barea. Roddy just has to prove he's worth it this summer or we need to trade him.

Our team could look a little different. Butler/Stevenson/Barea could all be gone depending on what happens. Chandler is a lock to be signed though. No way Cuban lets him go. People in Dallas love him and he's been everything we've asked for and more.[/QUOTE]
Oh I didn't really factor in any of their contract situations.. didn't know those guys were FAs. Yeah Cuban will definitely retain Chandler, but I wonder if they'll try to shed Haywood to get a better piece. He's serviceable and I'm sure a lot of teams could use him.. but damn his contract is pretty big for a 32 y/o.


Dr J has always been difficult to rank because people don't know how much weight they should place on his ABA career (3 MVPs 2 titles). I haven't watched enough footage of him to have a strong opinion of him either way

And Dirk overrating continues :oldlol: No way he is better than any of Top4 PFs, was last night fantastic? Sure, but still not as good as better performances in the Playoffs by prime Timmy, KG, Malone or Barkley. Plus 3 of those play defense, with KG and Duncan way beyond Dirk's capability.

[QUOTE=chazzy]Oh I didn't really factor in any of their contract situations.. didn't know those guys were FAs. Yeah Cuban will definitely retain Chandler, but I wonder if they'll try to shed Haywood to get a better piece. He's serviceable and I'm sure a lot of teams could use him.. but damn his contract is pretty big for a 32 y/o.


Dr J has always been difficult to rank because people don't know how much weight they should place on his ABA career (3 MVPs 2 titles). I haven't watched enough footage of him to have a strong opinion of him either way[/QUOTE]

We are stuck with Haywood. Nobody is taking on that contract. Which is fine I guess.....he's played well enough.

It will be interesting to see if we can get butler and barea a little cheaper. Will those guys have a desire to stay? or will a guy like barea want to play more minutes on a team and make more money?

its an interesting issue with barea and roddy.

stevenson will be gone i bet. and thats fine with roddy and brewer getting more burn.

[QUOTE=Harison]And Dirk overrating continues :oldlol: No way he is better than any of Top4 PFs, was last night fantastic? Sure, but still not as good as better performances in the Playoffs by prime Timmy, KG, Malone or Barkley. Plus 3 of those play defense, with KG and Duncan way beyond Dirk's capability.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with your "way beyond' stuff....

But I don't think anyone with a brain ranks Dirk over Duncan/KG/Barkley/Pettit/Malone yet.

But the "way beyond" talk with guys like KG needs to stop. Its simply not true. Peak? Yep. Overall? Nope.

*Only counting the general current era (1975 or so and beyond). Bob Pettit was beasting at 31 ppg and 18 rpg but honestly we have no way to compare him to today's players. He was 6'9 and 205...who knows how he would of done today.

[B]Tim Duncan[/B]
2x MVP
4X NBA Champion
3X NBA Finals MVP
Best statistical season
13X ALL NBA (9x First)
13X ALL Defense (8X First)
Peak: 23.3 ppg, 12.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.9 bpg
*Notes: Best interior post game. Controlled the interior/paint on the defensive side the best out of all candidates. Was a willing passer, and part of a cohesive unit. Free throw shooting is his biggest weakness.

[B]Kevin Garnett[/B]
1x MVP
1X NBA Champion
1X Defensive player of the year
9X ALL NBA (4X First)
11X ALL Defensive (9X First)
Peak: 24.2 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.5 spg, 2.2 bpg
Notes: Statistically, had the best peak year. Was an absolute monster on the offensive and defensive end. Could score in a range of ways, and controlled the paint with his intensity and rebounding. A vocal, albeit annoying, leader. Only flaw is his ability to dominate and be a back down post player. Most shots come from outside the key except offensive rebound put backs. At his peak, was a one man franchise.

[B]Charles Barkley[/B]
1x MVP
10X NBA ALL NBA (5x First)
Peak: 25.6 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 5.1 apg, 1.6 spg, 1.0 bpg
*Notes: Was the most offensively gifted of all the players. Could literally grab the board, go the length off the floor and finish with ease. At his peak was a one man wrecking crew. Could play inside and outside. Wreaked havoc with his offensive rebounding. Flaws were just consistency and leading his team to victory. Not 'stable' as a leader. Defensively was average, except when focused.

[B]Karl Malone[/B]
2X NBA MVP
13X All NBA (11X First)
4X All Defensive (3X First)
Peak: 27.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.5 apg, 1.4 spg, .6 bpg
Notes: Offensively could score in a variety of ways and had very active hands as a defender. Set brutal screens and was the most efficient pick and roll player of the generation. Flaws; couldn't deliver on Sundays. Had the whole package, but always seemed to just not have that extra gear to go to in the clutch.

[B]Dirk Nowitzki[/B]
1X NBA MVP
11X All NBA (4X First)
Fiba World Champion MVO, 7x Euro player of the year
Peak: 26.6 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 2.8 apg, .7 spg, 1.0 bpg
Notes: One of the best midrange, deep range, free throw shooters of all time. Could score from either block, anywhere on the court. Has significantly improved spinning away and driving to the rim, pump fakes etc. Has been consistently a great playoff performer but has been the victim of some of the most embarrassing losses in playoff history. Current playoff run is the stuff of legends, and will have cemented a top 5 generational pf status if he can get to the finals again. Flaws, average defender and average rebounder for his size.

[quote]He was 6'9 and 205...who knows how he would of done today.[/quote]
[B]
Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA[/B] - Terry Pluto


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/u7uE3.png[/IMG]

[QUOTE=PHILA][B]
Tall Tales: The Glory Years of the NBA[/B] - Terry Pluto


[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/u7uE3.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Interesting...i just went by what Wikipedia had him listed at. Good to know =)

[QUOTE=SavageMode]The Order should actually be.

1. Dirk
2.KG/Duncan

k thnx.[/QUOTE]

Give me a break
1.Duncan



2.Kg
3.Dirk

at least you got 1 of 3 right,

Duncan
Barkley
Malone in no particular order

[QUOTE=Harison]And Dirk overrating continues :oldlol: No way he is better than any of Top4 PFs, was last night fantastic? Sure, but still not as good as better performances in the Playoffs by prime Timmy, KG, Malone or Barkley. Plus 3 of those play defense, with KG and Duncan way beyond Dirk's capability.[/QUOTE]

Duncan
barkley
malone
pettit
kg and dirk

Yes Dirk is getting overrated but isn't it great to see him get his due.. He isn't on par with duncan, barkley and malone in my opinion.. But he can reach kg and pettit... Only problem with Dirk is that he has gone down too many times in the first round.. Those LOSSES won't be overlooked even if he wins a title this season.. But he is making a mark as one of the greatest scorers in playoff history.. So efficient and so darn clutch... WOW.. There is no debating who the most clutch player is anymore... Dirk is the most clutch player whether he wins a title or not... :applause:

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. K. Malone
4. B. Pettit
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dirk Nowitzki

Duncan
Pettit
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Dirk
Hayes
McHale

That's where I am at now. I've swapped McHale and Hayes a few times. Dirk made a big jump the last two years. He just consistently produces on offense, wins 50 games every year and now he may be on his way to his second Finals appearance as a sole superstar. I could see him taking the #2 spot all-time when all is said and done.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Duncan
Pettit
Garnett
Barkley
Malone
Dirk
Hayes
McHale

That's where I am at now. I've swapped McHale and Hayes a few times. Dirk made a big jump the last two years. He just consistently produces on offense, wins 50 games every year and now he may be on his way to his second Finals appearance as a sole superstar. I could see him taking the #2 spot all-time when all is said and done.[/QUOTE]
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

I have McHale over Hayes. I'd love to hear your take on that when you have time.

[QUOTE=BarberSchool]You're all insane.

Malone and Barkley would slaughter Nowitzki and KG.
Too strong.[/QUOTE]

without a doubt.
people just don't remember how athletic those guys were in 88-90.
they also forget that they ran the court like small forwards and played fastbreaks situations.

[QUOTE=NBASTATMAN]Only problem with Dirk is that he has gone down too many times in the first round.. Those LOSSES won't be overlooked even if he wins a title this season.. [/QUOTE]

I think people will forget most of it.

The Jazz and Malone were swept by a 43 win Golden State team in the first round in '89 and lost the do-or-die game five at home vs. Phoenix in the first round the next year. In 1995 they won 60 games and lost in the first round.

People forget over time.

1) McHale might just be the most overrated player of all time. He at no point showed that he could be a team leader, really put a team on his back. Was a 6th man for half of his career. Had only one statistically overwhelming season. Was a black hole on offense and didn't create for others. There is absolutely no reason for him to be ranked over players like Dirk or KG. I'm not saying that his career could not have played out differently on another team, but his resum

I want Kblaze to get in here and lay some truth down on Karl Malone.

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five] I can't give the nod to KG because Dirk always outplayed him head-to-head and has had far more team success as the #1 option. [/QUOTE]

A lot of people seem to think so, but that was not the case.

Head-to-head KG has superior numbers.

In 12 meetings from 2003-04 to 2006-07 Garnett posted better numbers in 11 of 12 meetings.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01[/url]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]A lot of people seem to think so, but that was not the case.

Head-to-head KG has superior numbers.

In 12 meetings from 2003-04 to 2006-07 Garnett posted better numbers in 11 of 12 meetings.

[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=garneke01&p2=nowitdi01[/url][/QUOTE]

was referring mostly to the playoff series when Dirk dropped 33/16 per game on the best defensive PF ever and swept him out of the playoffs. While KG played great too that series, to me it cemented him not being better than Dirk in any way, shape or form.

How much do you guys factor in head to head play when evaluating two players? If one player outplays another in their matchups, but the other player is better against everyone else.. what do you take away from that?