The Finals really ruined lebron - i mean just before the finals...

[QUOTE=asdf1990]Its not about the monster numbers, its about him breaking hearts like only Jordan did in the 90s. Going on the road and repeatedly delivering daggers, idc if you are a hater of what the semis and ECF was greatness .[/QUOTE]

He wasn't doing anything at the end of games in these series' that he hadn't done before while putting up much better numbers on far better efficiency. You, like everybody else, are just being blinded by the W's.

[QUOTE=KenneBell]He was averaging 32/6/6 on 50% up to the Finals.


I guess but I didn't think it was all that great of a run. He had some good games and closed out well but statistically(26/9/5) and just watching the game, LeBron wasn't dominating enough to have an all-time great playoff run.[/QUOTE]

Stats don't tell the whole story. He was extremely clutch in the Celtics and Bulls series and was a beast defensively. I haven't seen perimeter defense like that since Jordan and Pippen. He was hitting big shots when they needed it most. I remember looking at his stats through the ECF and being surprised they weren't better, much like I was surprised Dirk only 42% in the Finals. Like I said, stats don't tell the whole story. I wouldn't say he was better then 09, but I think it would easily be his 2nd best playoff run if it wasn't for the horrible Finals. Even with the horrible Finals, it still arguably is his 2nd best.

[QUOTE=Mamba]never said he didn't. i know he did, but how can someone who did that ^^ just turn into a nothingman on the court.[/QUOTE]
Then /end argument.

[QUOTE=guy]Even with the horrible Finals, it still arguably is his 2nd best.[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

There isn't a single metric supporting 2011 even as a Top 5 playoff run by LeBron. And it only gets worse if I throw numbers out the window, and strictly judge him by on-court play.

[QUOTE=Indian guy]The complete shift in coverage and people's perception of LeBron during the EC playoffs is a testament to how winning DRIVES everything. An athlete's entire image is result-oriented. You win, and people view you positively - as was the case with LeBron pre-Finals. You lose, and everything you didn't do in order to win is put under the microscope.

This is for those idiots who think LeBron's image is irredeemable or he has to do something beyond-the-court to change how people view him. NOBODY gives a crap about how arrogant you are, what you say or whom you fu*ked over AS LONG AS you kick ass on the court. As long as you win, you have everybody's respect. That's what LeBron lacks right now - people's respect for him as a player. Winning while playing well will cure all of that.[/QUOTE]

Some of this is true. Although Lebron wouldn't be getting half of this hate if he had played average instead of terrible.

Wade isn't getting much hate because he played well and lost.

But yes, you are right that winning will cure this. The problem is that we are grading Lebron on a certain curve. He's already one of the 20 to 25 best players of all time. He will, barring injury, go down as one of the best players of all time.

But his ceiling was a top 5 player of all time....maybe even higher as recent as 2 or 3 seasons ago. I don't think he has much of a chance to reach that anymore. Some of that is not his fault. Some of it is.

Can Lebron change the perception about him and make a run at the top 10 of all time? Sure. Can he make a run that matches his all time ranking with his talent/potential? Doubtful at this point.

And I think that is why he gets so much hate. In the past it really wasn't deserved. Lebron's first 7 years were amazing. He came up short only a few times and it was perfectly reasonable as he's a human being and not perfect. Very few players in the history of the game, if any, did more with less than Lebron did with the Cavs from 07 to 10.

But his last 2 years hurt him a lot. In the heart of his prime, he came up really small against the Celtics in 10 and then absolutely fell apart on the biggest stage in the NBA......with a loaded team at that. That is going to seriously hurt his legacy forever.

because pippen said he is better than jordon

''a low self esteem prostitute who wishes to see much more women engaged in prostitution''

that's Lebron and his jockers

Lebron is the prostitute of the NBA
his jockers are the prostitute of ISH

[QUOTE=asdf1990]idc if you are a hater of what the semis and ECF was greatness .[/QUOTE]

Not really. He was pretty good, but I've seen far better.

[QUOTE=PowerGlove]you are so right, my homer side is taking over. sorry for the exaggeration.

I'm rewatching Kobe's 08 postseason.......damn, poor nuggets. Kenyon Martin???? Were they serious??? This team was horrendous.[/QUOTE]

That's right, Kobe in his prime was Godlike.

Lebrons 2010 1st round vs Bulls>>>> any series he had this year.

Do we all consider Shaq's career with all the awards , and 4 rings a flaw :confusedshrug:

I myself feel it is what it is , but in all honesty , if Shaq would of been more of a professional athlete , and concentrated on the game 10-11 months of the year it is quite possible he could of won 8 chips.

Alot of luck also has to work for a player , with rosters and opponents unless your a dominate team as was the Celtics and russel and the Bulls and Jordan.

I would not put it out of reason that Bron could get 6 rings ,but it also means he would need roster restructuring for his team to make a chase of it.

Needless to say if he had brought his 'A game' in the finals and not taken D-Wades comment to heart , he would of gotten his first chip.

[QUOTE=PowerGlove][B]Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. [/B]This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.[/QUOTE]

:wtf: :wtf:

[QUOTE=Indian guy]:oldlol:

There isn't a single metric supporting 2011 even as a Top 5 playoff run by LeBron. And it only gets worse if I throw numbers out the window, and strictly judge him by on-court play.[/QUOTE]

Tell me which one was inarguably better then besides 2009? They made the Finals in 2007, but he wasn't that spectacular aside from one all-time great game. He had some of his worse performances against the Celtics in 08. And despite the stats, he completely melted down in 2010.

[QUOTE=guy]Stats don't tell the whole story. He was extremely clutch in the Celtics and Bulls series and was a beast defensively. I haven't seen perimeter defense like that since Jordan and Pippen. He was hitting big shots when they needed it most. I remember looking at his stats through the ECF and being surprised they weren't better, much like I was surprised Dirk only 42% in the Finals. Like I said, stats don't tell the whole story. I wouldn't say he was better then 09, but I think it would easily be his 2nd best playoff run if it wasn't for the horrible Finals. Even with the horrible Finals, it still arguably is his 2nd best.[/QUOTE]
Like I said, statistically [I]and[/I] watching the games, I didn't think his run was all that great up through the ECF...he had some great games but it wasn't the dominance we saw in '09.

lol at ppl saying his defense was great. He got torched by Pierce, Deng, Marion and Terry.

everyone only remembers you from the last series. ask dirk in 2006.

lebron might had done alright all the way up to the finals, but no one will remember that.

he'll only be remembered for being missing in 2011. those 5 games kinda paint the main picture, justly or not, of his playoff efforts. even though it ignores all the games before that, but that's just how it is. nobody remembers how well dirk played up to game 2 of the '06 finals. they just remember the final meltdown.

[QUOTE=eldanielfire]Is that so certain? I don't think his career will end anytime soon but he's a flawed player with no post game, no clutch ability and some people have noticed he is appearing to lose some of his athlectism that is essential to his game.[/QUOTE]

I see what you're saying but let's keep it real for a second. It's basketball. A simple game of putting a ball into a hole. No matter how old you are, you can always find ways to improve and become a better player. Even after gaining a little weight, having some miles on his knees/legs, and playing a completely different role than he's had to do in his career, he was STILL a better player in 2010-11 than he was in any other year. I have no reason to believe he's not going to be a better player next year. I dunno...that's how I look at the situation. It's not like he's gonna turn 35 overnight. 26 is young. Post game, shooting, footwork...those things can be worked on and improved and he has the time to do so.

[QUOTE=rodman91]Too early to say.He is still young and has a good team.If he wins some rings and perform well in finals first two will be forgetten for majority.

Kobe had such finals too in 2004. (22.6 ppg with %38 and 2.2 rpg &4.4 apg) What will do next is matters.[/QUOTE]

Kobe and Lebron cant be mentioned as equals ever again. Kobe has proven he is a different kind of beast. Even in that bad 2004 Finals he still had 3 rings, he hit a clutch 3 to give us a win in game 2, and he was actually going through major personal issues ( court in the morning, games at night). So dont try to compare them Lebron has failed in this fashion over and over again...

[QUOTE=WeGetRing2012]Kobe and Lebron cant be mentioned as equals ever again. Kobe has proven he is a different kind of beast. Even in that bad 2004 Finals he still had 3 rings, he hit a clutch 3 to give us a win in game 2, and he was actually going through major personal issues ( court in the morning, games at night). So dont try to compare them Lebron has failed in this fashion over and over again...[/QUOTE]

I think that is going way too far as Lebron still has a lot of years left.

I hurt his legacy no doubt, but Kobe of all people has had plenty of failings in the playoffs and finals.

We can speculate on what is likely or not, but writing off a player is something that should never really be done.

Cough....Dirk...Cough

[QUOTE=WeGetRing2012]Kobe and Lebron cant be mentioned as equals ever again. Kobe has proven he is a different kind of beast. Even in that bad 2004 Finals he still had 3 rings, he hit a clutch 3 to give us a win in game 2, and he was actually going through major personal issues ( court in the morning, games at night). So dont try to compare them Lebron has failed in this fashion over and over again...[/QUOTE]

Kobe hasn't been that good in the Finals either, and I wouldn't say he's been that much better in the other rounds of the playoffs either. I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I think that is going way too far as Lebron still has a lot of years left.

I hurt his legacy no doubt, [B]but Kobe of all people has had plenty of failings in the playoffs and finals.[/B]

We can speculate on what is likely or not, but writing off a player is something that should never really be done.

Cough....Dirk...Cough[/QUOTE]

Thats just not true. As he come up short during some runs yeah but most players have. But you know without a doubt that he gave 110% at all times. There is no way you can get 5 rings as a main guy without being great when your team needs you the most. Can you say the same about Lebron? Hell no. When it gets tough for him he just quits and heading into his 9th year and still playing like this is not Kobe-like,Jordan-Like, or Greatest basketball player-like.

[QUOTE=guy]Kobe hasn't been that good in the Finals either, and I wouldn't say he's been that much better in the other rounds of the playoffs either. I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.[/QUOTE]

5-7 not that great? :lol

[QUOTE=guy] I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.[/QUOTE]
Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2010.

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2010.

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.[/QUOTE]
so he is never going to be better than kobe? :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Da Heroic One]so he is never going to be better than kobe? :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Huh?

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Huh?[/QUOTE]
you're saying once lebron does all of that he will be better than kobe right? the chances of him doing any of that are slim to none. he is never going to have a post game, he supposedly got one or was working on it in the summer of 2009 but he never did.

lebron doesn't have the work-ethic or heart that kobe has, lebron is like tommy gunn from rocky v.

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2010.

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.[/QUOTE]

Kobe played fine in 2000,2008,and 2010 (dont let 6/24 fool you go back and look at the box scores).

[QUOTE=WeGetRing2012]Kobe played fine in 2000,2008,and 2010 (dont let 6/24 fool you go back and look at the box scores).[/QUOTE]
lol @ swoosh listing 2000 when he wasn't even in his prime/ considered a superstar back then.

2004/2008--Played poorly BUT it was against the two best defenses ever.

In fact, NO superstar EVER has played better defenses than what Bryant has seen in the playoffs. [url]http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/29/who-played-the-hardest-defenses-adjusting-playoff-stats-by-competition-part-i/[/url]

[QUOTE=Da Heroic One]you're saying once lebron does all of that he will be better than kobe right?[/quote]
No, I was saying that is what LeBron needs to do for himself.

Skill wise he's never going to be Kobe.

But if he just does LeBron, polishes up some stuff for his own game, produce like he was in 2009 and 2010.

He absolutely can be better than Kobe if he racks up some rings. Even more important would be to maybe get a few more MVP trophies too.

[QUOTE=guy]Kobe hasn't been that good in the Finals either, and I wouldn't say he's been that much better in the other rounds of the playoffs either. I could easily see lebron still ending up as thw better player.[/QUOTE]

Correct on the first part, but as far as the other rounds? Kobe's 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010 playoff runs were great and considerably better than any of Lebron's with the exception of 2009.

Also, I don't see Lebron having the type of longevity Kobe did. I've said for a while that I think 2009 will remain Lebron's peak. Lebron's peak was arguably as good or better than Kobe's, but I don't think his prime will be better ultimately, nor do I think he'll be able to match Kobe's accomplishments.

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]No, I was saying that is what LeBron needs to do for himself.

Skill wise he's never going to be Kobe.

But if he just does LeBron, polishes up some stuff for his own game, produce like he was in 2009 and 2010.

He absolutely can be better than Kobe if he racks up some rings. Even more important would be to maybe get a few more MVP trophies too.[/QUOTE]
yeah he is probably not gonna do that either. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Correct on the first part, but as far as the other rounds? Kobe's 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010 playoff runs were great and considerably better than any of Lebron's with the exception of 2009.

Also, I don't see Lebron having the type of longevity Kobe did. I've said for a while that I think 2009 will remain Lebron's peak. Lebron's peak was arguably as good or better than Kobe's, but I don't think his prime will be better ultimately, nor do I think he'll be able to match Kobe's accomplishments.[/QUOTE]

When you say "peak", what are you referring to? Stats? Overall athleticism?

I say this because the general consensus is that he is a player with a few flaws. Shaky post game, shaky mid range game, relied too much on his athleticism, etc. If he comes back a more polished player than he ever has and still is an elite athlete and player, then how can 2009 be the last of his prime/peak? I don't understand the logic.

[QUOTE=thejumpa]When you say "peak", what are you referring to? Stats? Overall athleticism?

I say this because the general consensus is that he is a player with a few flaws. Shaky post game, shaky mid range game, relied too much on his athleticism, etc. If he comes back a more polished player than he ever has and still is an elite athlete and player, then how can 2009 be the last of his prime/peak? I don't understand the logic.[/QUOTE]

I meant peak season, he's still in his prime, but I don't see him playing the game better for a season(including the playoffs than he did in 2009). He's a bit more skilled now, but noticeably less explosive.

Not sure how long his prime will last, I've always been skeptical over how his game will age, and last season made me more so.

[QUOTE=PowerGlove]Yeah if he would have sealed the deal, that would have been one of the greatest postseason runs I have ever seen. This dude was killing people.

The good thing is that we know he has it in him to finish games. Hopefully he will come back next year with some new moves and be more assertive.[/QUOTE]
are you serious?....the chicago series was one of poor offensive execution in which both offenses was borderline anemic...James wasn't spectacular in that series...he made a few big shots, but he wasnt overly impressive in any series this post season. The big shots he made doesnt just erase the rest the game he had. This would've have just an okay playoff run had miami he won...james perrcentages and averages were down straight across the board and the heat were beating teams due to freethrow advantages(i.e making history against the bulls). Miami was outshot , from 2, and 3, and out rebounded by chicago and still won the series due to a 2-1 freethrow advantage, i dont find that to be impressive.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Kobe's 2001, 2008, 2009 and 2010 playoff runs were great and considerably better than any of Lebron's with the exception of 2009.
[/QUOTE]

:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.

[QUOTE=Indian guy]:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.[/QUOTE]

Probably because he didn't quit in the second round and he didn't have any 40 win teams to inflate his stats like LeBron did.

lol @ Kobe faring "much worse". Kobe was averaging ~30 points on 44-45% through 6 games, and then his game 7 tanked his stats. Despite playing horrible in the first half, he still picked it up in the second half and put up 10 points/4 boards in the 4th quarter.

LeBron, meanwhile, was terrible in games 4-6 of the series after the Cavs had a 2-1 lead w/ homecourt advantage. Game 6 is a prime example of empty stats. Dude was skying over teammates for rebounds, then playing passively (what a shock) on the offensive end and finishing 8-21 from the field.

And we all know what happened in game 5...

[QUOTE=Indian guy]:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.[/QUOTE]

What a moron.:oldlol:

First of all, Lebron completely choking or quitting(was convinced he quit at first, but after this year's finals, I'm not so sure) in 3 consecutive games severely hurts his playoff run. More importantly, it's much more difficult to maintain that through a run to the finals than 2 series. And it was 2 rounds later, plus Kobe's series vs Boston was clearly superior to Lebron's, I don't give a f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck what the stats are. When you have 3 consecutive games like Lebron did to end that series, it makes the stats pretty irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Indian guy]:oldlol:

How does any run by Kobe match LeBron's in 2010? 29/9/8/FG% .500/TS% .610/PER 29 > is better than Kobe in the years you listed. Don't tell me how LeBron was average in the Boston series. Kobe fared much worse against them a round later.[/QUOTE]
Serious? You're comparing a "run" of 2 series, including one where he checked out early, to multiple great runs to the finals? He played 8th seeded Bulls and then played half a series against Boston. Whether you like it or not, those overall numbers aren't gonna fool anyone into thinking that was some all time great playoff run :oldlol:

Lebron playing bad in the finals is an understatement.

A franchise player plays bad sometimes but even when they do, no-one watching would say "hey I wish that guy never turned up to the game today". With lebron in the finals, I bet all his fans wished he never turned up

[QUOTE=Samurai Swoosh]Good point. Kobe lost in two Finals. Didn't play particularly well in [B]2000[/B], 2004, 2008, and [B]2010[/B].

Needs to polish up some skills, lose some weight so he can still take people off the dribble, keep his defensive intensity up (played bad defense in the Finals) and you're absolutely right.[/QUOTE]
In 00 Kobe was in what? 4th year in the league and 2nd as a starter, and and in 2010 he was averaging 34 ppg 46% before game 7.