[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]yes...I watched both players whole career....Kobe skillwise is 2nd to no one.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and Phil would agree with you.
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[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]yes...I watched both players whole career....Kobe skillwise is 2nd to no one.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and Phil would agree with you.
It's a close comparison, but MJ gets the edge on virtue of significantly better regular season production alone. I do think, overall, Kobe's about 90-95% the player MJ was.
[QUOTE=miles berg]Kobe, at his absolute peak, was roughly 65%-75% as good as any version of Jordan from '84 to '98.
This is as silly as comparing Dirk to Bird.[/QUOTE]
Jordan wasn't the same player as 88-93 Jordan in 96-98. He wasn't nearly as good.
[QUOTE=miles berg]Kobe, at his absolute peak, was roughly 65%-75% as good as any version of Jordan from '84 to '98.
This is as silly as comparing Dirk to Bird.[/QUOTE]
No what is silly is people who think past his prime Jordan 96-98 was better then peak Kobe Bryant 2008.
[QUOTE=Ikill]Why are you not including Kobe as a 20 year old and 32 year ol he started than too. That would bring him to 13 years the same number of years Jordan played with the Bulls. What are Jordans numbers with the Bulls and Kobes numbers from 20-32 compare those numbers.[/QUOTE]
roughly 28PPG 6REB 5AST....Kobe at 32 has 5 Championships and 1 Losing season:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=game3524]No what is silly is people who think past his prime Jordan 96-98 was better then peak Kobe Bryant 2008.[/QUOTE]
Much better player than Kobe in 2008.
Anyone that can't see that is obviously bias.
Not worth arguing, anyone that isnt bias knows this already.
[QUOTE=game3524]Yeah, and Phil would agree with you.[/QUOTE]
even Jordan himself said Kobe is a more advanced player skilwise....:confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=game3524]What is this bullshit?:roll:
08-10 Kobe has averaged less shots a game then 96-98 Jordan. Also LA lost because they can't guard a chair on the perimeter and didn't close out on the shooters, Kobe Bryant's shot selection was the least of their problems this year.[/QUOTE]
how can perimeter defense be a problem when kobe is first team all-d!
[QUOTE=miles berg]Much better player than Kobe in 2008.
Anyone that can't see that is obviously bias.
Not worth arguing, anyone that isnt bias knows this already.[/QUOTE]
"much better"....and your talking about Bias????
both comparable ...similar players in similar roles ..
IMO Kobe is a better allaround player....
lol @ Bias
[QUOTE=miles berg]Much better player than Kobe in 2008.
Anyone that can't see that is obviously bias.
Not worth arguing, anyone that isnt bias knows this already.[/QUOTE]
No, he wasn't.
2008 Kobe was a better defender then 96-98 Jordan, and their offensive games were pretty much a wash. And what really tilts things in Bryant's corner was his athleticism at that point was better then mid-late 90's Jordan.
I love MJ, and think he is the best player of all-time. But this stupid revisionism of his latter stages of his career is hilarious.
[QUOTE=DuMa]how can perimeter defense be a problem when kobe is first team all-d![/QUOTE]
Kobe sucked on defense this year, and Fisher was more of the weak link anyway.
[QUOTE=game3524]No, I understand basketball. You guys just want to turn Jordan into some mythical figure. Both Bryant and Jordan have high b-ball IQ, the difference is Jordan was a much better athlete then Bryant, which allowed him to get higher percentage shots.[/QUOTE]
And the fact that MJ didn't settle or force as many shots has anything to do with it?
MJ has credited Dean Smith into transforming him into the player he became endlessly, this is where he learned to play smart and make the proper decisions. Kenny Smith alluded to this as well.
How many great athletes have we seen in the league with great potential come and go, but their iq kills their chances of being great (or good at all in some cases).
Kobe has a good IQ, but compared to most of the greats and to MJ it falls very short.
[QUOTE=andgar923][B]And the fact that MJ didn't settle or force as many shots has anything to do with it?[/B]
MJ has credited Dean Smith into transforming him into the player he became endlessly, this is where he learned to play smart and make the proper decisions. Kenny Smith alluded to this as well.
How many great athletes have we seen in the league with great potential come and go, but their iq kills their chances of being great (or good at all in some cases).
Kobe has a good IQ, but compared to most of the greats and to MJ it falls very short.[/QUOTE]
Bryant has the range to hit those tough shots. MJ as great as he was, never had Kobe's range. Also prime MJ was a better athlete then Bryant ever was, which allowed him to get to his spots and take much higher percentage shots.
[QUOTE=gengiskhan][B][COLOR="Red"]Peak Kobe has won 2 scoring titles[/COLOR][/B]
96-98 MJ has won 3 scoring titles . [B]Advantage MJ[/B]
Peak Kobe has won 1 NBA MVP.
96-98 MJ has won 2 NBA MVPs. [B]Advantage MJ[/B]
Peak Kobe has won 2 Finals MVPs
96-98 MJ has won 3 Finals MVPs. [B]Advantage MJ[/B]
Peak Kobe has LOST 1 NBA Finals series despite being favorites.
96-98 MJ has NOT lost any NBA Finals series despite being underdog (1998). [B]Advantage MJ[/B]
Peak Kobe has failed to sweep MVP in a year.
96-98 MJ has won NBA MVP + Finals MVP TWICE. [B]Advantage MJ[/B]
are you faking Blind. You still cannot seperate who is better. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Kobe won scoring titles in 06&07. Not 08-10.
[QUOTE=game3524]Bryant has the range to hit those tough shots. MJ as great as he was, never had Kobe's range. Also prime MJ was a better athlete then Bryant ever was, which allowed him to get to his spots and take much higher percentage shots.[/QUOTE]
Even then.
Although I agree that MJ's athleticism gave him an advantage, how would you describe the following.
As Kobe's athleticism eroded, he has taken less 3pt shots and has picked his spots on the court to become an even deadlier offensive player. His post up game and mid range shots have also increased as he's taken less 3pt shots.
On the flip side, even as a Wizard MJ was getting clear looks and penetrating even tho his athleticism was clearly gone. He could no longer just blow or jump over you, he used his footwork and off the ball movement more than ever.
That's just a few examples to illustrate my point.
Again... I NEVER stated that what made MJ was primarily his IQ. I just used it as an example to show that it is what separated MJ from Kobe the most.
[QUOTE=andgar923]Even then.
Although I agree that MJ's athleticism gave him an advantage, how would you describe the following.
As Kobe's athleticism eroded, he has taken less 3pt shots and has picked his spots on the court to become an even deadlier offensive player. His post up game and mid range shots have also increased as he's taken less 3pt shots.
On the flip side, even as a Wizard MJ was getting clear looks and penetrating even tho his athleticism was clearly gone. He could no longer just blow or jump over you, he used his footwork and off the ball movement more than ever.
That's just a few examples to illustrate my point.
Again... I NEVER stated that what made MJ was primarily his IQ. I just used it as an example to show that it is what separated MJ from Kobe the most.[/QUOTE]
I honestly don't see the point you are trying to illustrate. So what, both guys changed their game to offset their aging.
[QUOTE=game3524]No what is silly is people who think past his prime Jordan 96-98 was better then peak Kobe Bryant 2008.[/QUOTE]
Have you lost your mind?
If you did please file a police complaint!
I just gave you from stats, individual accolades, efficiency how 1995-1998 MJ is simply Better than Peak Kobe Bryant.
You just seem to simply ignore it & deny it.
than I even went explaining why Kobe lost '08 NBA finals. you ignore that as well.
funny thing with Kobe stans:
Just ignore MJ stats
Just ignore MJs individual accolades
Just ignore MJs leadership, efficiency
Just ignore MJs ultimate mastery of mid range game, ouside & inside game, triagle offense.
Just shouting off the roof "Kobe is the best Kobe is the best Kobe is the best!" aint gonna make him better than MJ.
Kobe offensively or defensively Is, was, will be NEVER at same level as 1984-1998 MJ.
Every fact has gone against him so far.
i bet Dmavs is mad i made a better thread :banana:
[QUOTE=Warriors fan]i bet Dmavs is mad i made a better thread :banana:[/QUOTE]
You are DMAVS. You're not fooling anybody.
[QUOTE=andgar923]I have defended and praised Kobe for his willingness to dare aspire at being better than MJ. I have defended and praised Kobe time and time again when comparing Bron and others to him. I have given him the highest compliment any player can get when I state that he's the closest to MJ as far as 'skills set'.
But that's all Kobe is= Jordan 'lite'
He has some of MJ's skills, but not as polished and at the same level of 'consistency'. If MJ is a 9.5 in a certain skill, Kobe is an 8 (depending on what we're talking about).
But where Kobe lacks the most (and this is significant) is in the IQ department.
Lawdy is he far behind in this department.
MJ is clearly a 10, Kobe is a 5.
And this takes away from all of the other aspects in his game. MJ wasn't perfect, but he knew how to maximize his strengths while not letting his opponents exploit his weaknesses. Kobe on the other hand is the opposite. There's a huge reason why his stats aren't as impressive as MJ's (although impressive on their own right), and that's because he has never come close to MJ's overall mastery of the game.
There's an interview with MJ where he states that physically, Wade, Bron and Kobe would beat him. But when it comes to the mental aspects, it's not even close.... and he's right.
Some cats here are too young or too dumb (sorry, but it's true) to understand this very important aspect. And that's what I believe takes Kobe notches down from even being equal to MJ, let alone better.[/QUOTE]
Is that why Phil said that Kobe has better basketball skills than Jordan? Ouch... :roll:
Guys, [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6173972"]Dmavs/Gino = Warriors fan & gengiskhan[/URL]
Stop being so easily hoodwinked.
[QUOTE=Heavincent]You are DMAVS. You're not fooling anybody.[/QUOTE]
:lol at dis man
[QUOTE=andgar923]And the fact that MJ didn't settle or force as many shots has anything to do with it?
MJ has credited Dean Smith into transforming him into the player he became endlessly, this is where he learned to play smart and make the proper decisions. Kenny Smith alluded to this as well.
How many great athletes have we seen in the league with great potential come and go, but their iq kills their chances of being great (or good at all in some cases).
[B]Kobe has a good IQ, but compared to most of the greats and to MJ it falls very short[/B].[/QUOTE]
Dead on
Kobe missing NCAA has costed him. Kobe'tards just dont realise it.
Kobe would've been lot more efficient as Pro has he finished atleast 2 yrs of NCAA at UNC or Duke.
My point is peak kobe will still get 35ppg in that year. but with lot less shot jocking and taking lesser FG attempts resulting in MVP in weaker league
Kobe would've also won 2-3 MVP like Magic & Bird instead of 1. Kobe would've won his FIRST Finals MVP in 2004 instead of 2009.
Kobe's decent IQ & average understanding of the game is killing him & Lakers, He just doesnt know when to shoot or when to pass most of the time.
[QUOTE=Bladers]Guys, [URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6173972"]Dmavs/Gino = Warriors fan & gengiskhan[/URL]
Stop being so easily hoodwinked.[/QUOTE]
what up ******
[B]96-98 Jordan vs 08-10 Kobe?[/B]
On paper looks pretty even,
[QUOTE][B]Playoffs[/B]
96 Jordan 30.7 pts (45.9 %),4.9 rb,4.1 as
97 Jordan 31.1 pts (45.6 %),7.9 rb,4.8 as
98 Jordan 32.4 pts (46.2 %),5.1 rb,3.5 as
08 Kobe 30.1 pts (47.9 %),5.7 rb,5.6 as
09 Kobe 30.2 pts (45.7%),5.3 rb,5.5 as
10 Kobe 29.2 pts (45.8%),6 rb,5.5 as[/QUOTE]
but once you dig deeper Jordan's wins easily.
[B]Jordan's Playoff runs[/B]
[CODE] 1996 1997 1998
PTS FG % PTS FG % PTS FG%
Jordan 30.7 45.9 31.1 45.6 32.4 46.2
Bulls 97.4 44.3 92.5 43.2 93.1 44.5
Jordan's Share 31.5% 33.6% 34.8%
League Avg 93.7 45.5 94.0 44.4 91.2 44.9 [/CODE]
[B]Kobe's Playoff runs[/B]
[CODE] 2008 2009 2010
PTS FG % PTS FG % PTS FG%
Kobe 30.1 47.9 30.2 45.7 29.2 45.8
Lakers 102.4 46.8 102.4 46.5 101.1 46.0
Kobe's Share 29.4% 29.5% 28.9%
League Avg 94.9 44.4 96.7 45.1 97.5 45.3 [/CODE]
In short:late 90's defense was tougher than today,plus Jordan did more (three-peat) with less.
[QUOTE=Warriors fan]TPOLS claims that MJ would have had no chance to replace Kobe from 08 to 10 and make 3 straight finals. He claims at most he makes 2 finals and wins 1 title.
Agree or disagree?
Also, does 98 Jordan get swept by the Mavs replacing Kobe this year?
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckkLI7U8Btg[/url][/QUOTE]
why creating the exact thread and thread title of DMAVS?
[URL=http://imgur.com/m6qTX][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/m6qTX.png[/IMG][/URL]
or you're one of his brothers? or you're him and forgot about it?
i'm confused :hammerhead:
[QUOTE=winwin]why creating the exact thread and thread title of DMAVS?
[URL=http://imgur.com/m6qTX][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/m6qTX.png[/IMG][/URL]
or you're one of his brothers? or you're him and forgot about it?
i'm confused :hammerhead:[/QUOTE]
I thought it was a good topic so i made it and people actually responded to mine. No i'm not him or his brother
[QUOTE=andgar923][B]Kobe has never been better than MJ defensively.... NEVER.
Shit... Wizards MJ is as good as 'prime' Kobe defensively.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://www.gifbin.com/bin/082009/1249287503_ice_cube.gif[/IMG]
I don't get the whole "Kobe's lack of basketball IQ" argument or "MJ had such great shot selection"
It wasn't that Jordan had the greatest shot selection ever, he was just a great finisher and scorer. His FG% was worse during the 2nd three peat and in the 2000s, did his IQ suddenly drop off?
He was never a jump shooter. He was a bonafide slasher who had an unguardable first step. MJ used to go 1 on 5, take quick shots, etc but that wasn't always a bad shot for him because he could make it.
FG% isn't an indicator of IQ. Besides it isn't like 45% shooting for a perimeter player who primarily shoots jumpers is low.
[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]I don't get the whole "Kobe's lack of basketball IQ" argument or "MJ had such great shot selection"
It wasn't that Jordan had the greatest shot selection ever, he was just a great finisher and scorer. His FG% was worse during the 2nd three peat and in the 2000s, did his IQ suddenly drop off?
He was never a jump shooter. He was a bonafide slasher who had an unguardable first step. MJ used to go 1 on 5, take quick shots, etc but that wasn't always a bad shot for him because he could make it.
FG% isn't an indicator of IQ. Besides it isn't like 45% shooting for a perimeter player who primarily shoots jumpers is low.[/QUOTE]
What's funny about that argument is that Kobe pretty consistently was more efficient in the playoffs. He shot about 57% TS% every year from 08-10 in the playoffs, where Jordan shot 56%, 52%, and 55% in 96, 97, and 98 in the playoffs.
[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]I don't get the whole "Kobe's lack of basketball IQ" argument or "MJ had such great shot selection"
It wasn't that Jordan had the greatest shot selection ever, he was just a great finisher and scorer. His FG% was worse during the 2nd three peat and in the 2000s, did his IQ suddenly drop off?
He was never a jump shooter. He was a bonafide slasher who had an unguardable first step. MJ used to go 1 on 5, take quick shots, etc but that wasn't always a bad shot for him because he could make it.
FG% isn't an indicator of IQ. Besides it isn't like 45% shooting for a perimeter player who primarily shoots jumpers is low.[/QUOTE]
Jordan was almost always a great jumpshooter and had a great postgame. People seem to think he didn't just cause he didn't use it as much when he was younger. He didn't need to because of his great athleticism and finishing ability. Kobe does have significantly worse shot selection then Jordan. You won't ever find Jordan taking a fadeaway three-pointer with a man all over him with 10 seconds still left on the clock.
Its hilarious for anyone to think ANY version of Kobe was better then Jordan in 96 and 97. I just have to assume alot of you are either biased or weren't watching at the time. And I don't think any version was better then 98 Jordan. There's no way Kobe leads a team to over 60+ wins with his best teammate sidelined for half the season or will an old team like that to a championship like Jordan.
[QUOTE=guy]Jordan was almost always a great jumpshooter and had a great postgame. People seem to think he didn't just cause he didn't use it as much when he was younger. He didn't need to because of his great athleticism and finishing ability. Kobe does have significantly worse shot selection then Jordan. You won't ever find Jordan taking a fadeaway three-pointer with a man all over him with 10 seconds still left on the clock.
Its hilarious for anyone to think ANY version of Kobe was better then Jordan in 96 and 97. I just have to assume alot of you are either biased or weren't watching at the time. And I don't think any version was better then 98 Jordan. There's no way Kobe leads a team to over 60+ wins with his best teammate sidelined for half the season or will an old team like that to a championship like Jordan.[/QUOTE]
People were watching, the problem is Jordan stains are overrating him. He is the best player of all-time, but peak Kobe was better then mid-late 90's Jordan.
[QUOTE=game3524]People were watching, the problem is Jordan stains are overrating him. He is the best player of all-time, but peak Kobe was better then mid-late 90's Jordan.[/QUOTE]
Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.
[QUOTE=guy]Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.[/QUOTE]
of course they do.
Because if MJ could do what he did, it's a no brainer that Kobe the 2nd greatest 2 guard of all time could as well.... duh!
[QUOTE=guy]Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.[/QUOTE]
See this is what I am talking about, you guys treat Jordan as if he was god. He is the best player of all-time, but he is slowly becoming the Reagan of basketball, where their is a ton revisionism.
Also those Bulls teams racked up a ton of wins in a water down league. Hell, the early 90's team was much better then the late 90's teams.
[QUOTE=guy]Really? The guy that led a team to 72 and 69 wins, and 62 wins without his best teammate, and to a three-peat? You think Jordan blows a 3-1 lead and barely even shoots in a game 7? You think Jordan lets his team blow a 24-point lead at home in the freaking Finals when they are down 2-1? You think Jordan lets his team get blown out by 40 in the elimination game of the Finals? You think Jordan lets his team get pushed to 7 games by a team that is missing its 2 best players? You think the Lakers would've had the problems they had with teams like the Rockets, Thunder, and Hornets with Jordan instead of Kobe? Get real.[/QUOTE]
Yep. The idea that 96 Jordan replacing 08 Kobe gets outplayed by Paul Pierce in the Finals just cracks me up.
There is absolutely no evidence that MJ would do worse than Kobe. The idea that MJ would have no chance to make 3 finals and would win 1 title at most is just beyond stupid.
I hope people realize what they are saying. Everyone seems to think that the 08 finals weren't close. Actually, if the Lakers don't have an epic collapse in game 4, they have a good chance to send the series back to Boston up 3-2. In that game? Kobe had 17 points on 6 of 19 shooting. Somehow I don't think Jordan does that.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yep. The idea that 96 Jordan replacing 08 Kobe gets outplayed by Paul Pierce in the Finals just cracks me up.
There is absolutely no evidence that MJ would do worse than Kobe. The idea that MJ would have no chance to make 3 finals and would win 1 title at most is just beyond stupid.
I hope people realize what they are saying. Everyone seems to think that the 08 finals weren't close. Actually, if the Lakers don't have an epic collapse in game 4, they have a good chance to send the series back to Boston up 3-2. In that game? Kobe had 17 points on 6 of 19 shooting. Somehow I don't think Jordan does that.[/QUOTE]
Lmao, LA gets swept if Jordan plays the way he did in the 96 Finals..
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Yep. The idea that 96 Jordan replacing 08 Kobe gets outplayed by Paul Pierce in the Finals just cracks me up.
There is absolutely no evidence that MJ would do worse than Kobe. The idea that MJ would have no chance to make 3 finals and would win 1 title at most is just beyond stupid.
I hope people realize what they are saying. Everyone seems to think that the 08 finals weren't close. Actually, if the Lakers don't have an epic collapse in game 4, they have a good chance to send the series back to Boston up 3-2. In that game? Kobe had 17 points on 6 of 19 shooting. Somehow I don't think Jordan does that.[/QUOTE]
Wizards MJ was beating and outplaying prime Pierce (or close to prime), can't begin to imagine what 96 MJ would do to him.
Wizards MJ was also embarrassing Posey, KG and Ray.
[QUOTE=andgar923]Wizards MJ was beating and outplaying prime Pierce (or close to prime), can't begin to imagine what 96 MJ would do to him.
Wizards MJ was also embarrassing Posey, KG and Ray.[/QUOTE]
1996 Michael Jordan would have been shutdown, just like Kobe was in 2008.
[QUOTE=andgar923]Wizards MJ was beating and outplaying prime Pierce (or close to prime), can't begin to imagine what 96 MJ would do to him.
Wizards MJ was also embarrassing Posey, KG and Ray.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, '96 MJ with the rules today would carve Posey, Pierce and Ray-Ray to pieces.
I'm of the opinion MJ from 96-98 was better than 08-10 Kobe, btw.