kobe>bird

[QUOTE=TheLogo]The term "shutdown" refers to a stretch of the game or perhaps near the end of a game when a player needs to be stopped.

In today's league no one player can shutdown the other. Impossible considering how good these guys are and the intricate zone schemes.[/QUOTE]

Talk to Bizil - Kobe shut down so many people playing so many positions that he made up for his extreme offensive deficiencies as compared to Bird.

[QUOTE=catch24]Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyLg15UIRLY"]Kobe shuts down Iverson[/URL]

Educate yourself.[/QUOTE]

His defensive mastery over AI was so great they put Ty. Lue on him.

Ty. Lue > Bird.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Talk to Bizil - Kobe shut down so many people playing so many positions that he made up for his extreme offensive deficiencies as compared to Bird.[/QUOTE]

extreme offensive deficiencies?

Kobe has the most offensive weapons in his arsenal than anyone I can remember.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]His defensive mastery over AI was so great they put Ty. Lue on him.

Ty. Lue > Bird.[/QUOTE]

You claimed you've never seen Kobe shut down guys like Iverson, right? Well, the footage I just posted doesn't lie. Iverson was rendered to 7 of 25 shooting which includes his GW shot attempt being blocked by, you guessed it, Kobe Bryant.

Shut-down.

[QUOTE=TheLogo]extreme offensive deficiencies?

Kobe has the most offensive weapons in his arsenal than anyone I can remember.[/QUOTE]

Except Bird did it better.

[QUOTE=catch24]You claimed you've never seen Kobe shut down guys like Iverson, right? Well, the footage I just posted doesn't lie. Iverson was rendered to 7 of 25 shooting which includes his GW shot attempt being blocked by, you guessed it, Kobe Bryant.

Shut-down.[/QUOTE]

True and true. I'll take my lumps.

Despite shooting worse, getting less bds and less assts, the 5 blks on AI in a regular season game from 13 years ago truly mean that Kobe > Bird.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Except Bird did it better.[/QUOTE]



I know you must be lonely and want to start debating to kill time but any true basketball fan will tell you that Kobe is better than Bird.

People actually forget about Bird in GOAT discussions because he's not that good compared to guys coming up or taking the spot....like a Duncan or a Kobe.

The 80's era was an era of inflated stats and Bird was a media darling. A sport that was dominated by black players and you have this one white guy. He is truly where he's at because of his skin color.

[QUOTE=RRR3]So LeBron didn't shut down Derrick Rose? :roll:[/QUOTE]
He didn't. Don't be delulded by the 6% ESPN was shoving down your throat.

Rose was able to blow by LeBron off the dribble but the HEAT sent several defenders in the paint to alter his shot. He was also trapped off the P&R to make him give the ball up.

Think about it. Do you really think LeBron with all the added weight could stay in front of a blur like Rose? He doesn't have the foot speed to do so.

James played great defense but he didn't shut him down single handedly. Team effort.

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]True and true. I'll take my lumps.

Despite shooting worse, getting less bds and less assts, the 5 blks on AI in a regular season game from 13 years ago truly mean that Kobe > Bird.[/QUOTE]

Anyone that has an ounce of basketball perspective would rank Bird over Kobe. I was only addressing your 'never seen Kobe do this' claim.

The truth of the matter is, when Kobe is being compared to other greats, they are usually MJ, Magic, Duncan or Shaq.

Nobody compares Kobe to Bird because Bird is an afterthought. People know Kobe is better than Bird.

Only Kobe haters and Boston homers would say otherwise.

[QUOTE=catch24]You claimed you've never seen Kobe shut down guys like Iverson, right? Well, the footage I just posted doesn't lie. Iverson was rendered to 7 of 25 shooting which includes his GW shot attempt being blocked by, you guessed it, Kobe Bryant.

Shut-down.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg[/IMG]

Iverson usually raped Kobe & teammates over years but he was unguardable in those years..still Kobe wasn't that great defender to put him over Bird as overall player.

[QUOTE=TheLogo]The truth of the matter is, when Kobe is being compared to other greats, they are usually MJ, Magic, Duncan or Shaq.

Nobody compares Kobe to Bird because Bird is an afterthought. People know Kobe is better than Bird.

Only Kobe haters and Boston homers would say otherwise.[/QUOTE]
I think even Bill Simmons ranks Kobe ahead of Bird these days, and he's the worst Bird homer of all time.

[QUOTE=rodman91][IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
That's the only time Iverson ever had a big game against Kobe.

The game catch24 posted, the game @ LA from the 2001 season, the game where AI had 49 points in 3 quarters and only 2 in the 4th were games where Kobe flatout shut him down.

[QUOTE=rodman91][IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Remind me who won that series again? Iverson wasn't even defending Kobe anyway :oldlol:

If you read the post I was quoting, you'd understand I wasn't downplaying Iverson. Dude said he never saw Kobe shut down players like Iverson so I gave him the footage he was looking for.

[QUOTE=Droid101]I think even Bill Simmons ranks Kobe ahead of Bird these days, and he's the worst Bird homer of all time.[/QUOTE]

/thread.

I believe he does now.

[QUOTE=catch24][QUOTE=rodman91][IMG]http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3937/2001lol.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE

Remind me who won that series again? Iverson wasn't even defending Kobe anyway :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

Lakers won series.It doesn't mean Kobe defend Iverson well.Plus,it would be delusional to expect 6'0 player to guard 6'6 in a series...

[QUOTE=RRR3]Sh-sh-sh-sh-shuh-shuh-shut d-d-d-d-down!!!!!!!:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:[/QUOTE]

He didn't shut anyone down. Are you his yes-man?

[QUOTE=rodman91]

Iverson usually raped Kobe & teammates over years but he was unguardable in those years..still Kobe wasn't that great defender to put him over Bird as overall player.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol:

[QUOTE=catch24]Anyone that has an ounce of basketball perspective would rank Bird over Kobe. I was only addressing your 'never seen Kobe do this' claim.[/QUOTE]

I have Bird over Kobe, but I don't understand this notion. Why?

Wouldn't it depend heavily on your criteria? How much does longevity play a factor? How much do stats play a factor?...etc.

There are certainly some criteria that could lead to Kobe being ranked over Bird. I do personally think there was a gap, but not this huge one that means anyone saying Kobe was better is a moron.

I don't see that.

[QUOTE=rodman91]
Iverson usually raped Kobe & teammates over years but he was unguardable in those years..still Kobe wasn't that great defender to put him over Bird as overall player.[/QUOTE]

He wasn't "raping" anyone. Especially not with his sub ~ 30% shooting vs the Lakers :oldlol:

Get real.

Derek Fisher shut down Iverson in game 2 and dunked on his face, I might add.

Real unguardable with that 40% shooting. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Joey Zaza]Bizil's whole post summed up here. Follow MJ > Bird. Kobe is close to MJ (except for being worse than him in every conceivable facet of the game) so therefore, even though their prodcution and every objective measure tells a different story, Kobe > Bird.

That, right there, is the source of all Kobe logic. Kobe is like MJ, MJ is great so Kobe is great. What's lost in translation is that while Kobe does so much like MJ, he does nothing NOTHING as well as MJ. Not even close. He's a poor fascimilie.

Kobe:
25.3 5.3 4.7 .450 w/ 1.5 spg

MJ
30.1 6.2 5.3 .497 w/ 2.3spg

Kobe had 3 great scoring seasons - MJ's AVERAGE is equal to one of them. MJ had 12 seasons scoring better than Kobe's average...and we haven't even had his decline, yet.[/QUOTE]

Wow u are for real on Bird's dick! LMBAO! Kobe is close enough to MJ's level for me to pick Kobe over Bird. Even when looking at criteria for a GOAT list, which includes talent, numbers, team accolades, solo accolads, and longevity being great, Kobe in my mind has passed Bird by. Many people don't wanna accept that fact, but it's time to consider Kobe being ranked past Bird on a GOAT list. It can go either way, but hell Kobe as five rings, two finals MVPs, a gold medal, almost 28,000 points, numerous All Star, All NBA, and All Defensive teams, an MVP and 4 All Star Game MVP's.

What's saving Magic still from Kobe taking him over as of now on a GOAT list is how he totally changed the PG position and those five rings. As unique as Bird was, Magic was even more unique. Arguably the most unique player of all time. Bird was very versatile, but Magic has played all five positions in a game. And Magic had arguably the greatest game of all time when he did it. Getting those 42 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists to win the title as a rookie. And replacing at the time (and arguably still) the greatest player of all time in Kareem.

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I have Bird over Kobe, but I don't understand this notion. Why?

Wouldn't it depend heavily on your criteria? How much does longevity play a factor? How much do stats play a factor?...etc.

There are certainly some criteria that could lead to Kobe being ranked over Bird. I do personally think there was a gap, but not this huge one that means anyone saying Kobe was better is a moron.

I don't see that.[/QUOTE]

As players you can argue who's skillset or other different intangibles were better, but on an all-time list? For their careers? It's definitely Bird.

I personally feel Bird was a more dominant and well-rounded player too.

the only thing I will compare Kobe to Bird is this and that's it.....

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ51a5AbJi0[/url]

Havlicek > everybody

8 rings

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]I have Bird over Kobe, but I don't understand this notion. Why?

Wouldn't it depend heavily on your criteria? How much does longevity play a factor? How much do stats play a factor?...etc.

There are certainly some criteria that could lead to Kobe being ranked over Bird. I do personally think there was a gap, but not this huge one that means anyone saying Kobe was better is a moron.

I don't see that.[/QUOTE]

Well said! I wouldn't think anybody would be a moron to think Bird over Kobe and vice versa. Me personally, the defensive side of the ball has me leaning to Kobe. Offensively I group guys as far as if they are a true Batman and then work my way down. No question Bird and Kobe are epic and clutch as Batman. Both are very versatile and can stuff the stat sheet. Bird's career statline of 24 pts, 10 boards, and 6 dimes could be the greatest stat line in terms of the big three stats ever. But at the end of the day give me Kobe. On certain teams, Bird could be the better fit though.

[QUOTE=catch24]As players you can argue who's skillset or other different intangibles were better, but on an all-time list? [B]For their careers? It's definitely Bird.[/B]

I personally feel Bird was a more dominant and well-rounded player too.[/QUOTE]

And wouldn't that be dependent on a number of things and your specific criteria?

Couldn't you understand someone valuing longevity and titles heavily ranking Kobe ahead of Bird when its all done?

[QUOTE=ThaSwagg3r]In a 1 on 1 game I would say Kobe would mop the floor with Bird.

However basketball is a 5 on 5 game and Bird played 5 on 5 basketball better than almost all but around 4-5 players to ever play the game.

Give Bird 4 random players to work with and then give Kobe 4 random players to work with. I could almost guarantee you that Bird's team would win the majority of the time.[/QUOTE]
Heres 4 random players Bird played with

Robert Parrish HOF
Kevin McHale HOF
Dennis Johnson HOF
Bill Walton HOF

Heres 4 random players Kobe played with
Chris Mihm
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Shaquille Oneal

To add onto that, DMAVS41 - I don't think people are "morons" for ranking Kobe>Bird all-time. I do think they're knowledge of Bird's career is suspect though. More often than not, the people that do rank Kobe ahead of Bird are trolls and/or have limited perspective.

[QUOTE=bizil]U r insane! It's a FACT that Kobe was an elite perimeter defender. He SMOKES Bird as a one on one defender. Kobe had lockdown ability when it came to defense. I'm not saying he's better than MJ, Cooper, Bowen, Moncrief, or guys like that. But I feel Kobe was still an elite, All League defender who could defend three positons.

As far as rebounding, Bird was an SF at 6'9 230 pounds who played a lot of PF. So that's to be expected. Passing u can say Bird. But Kobe is a guy who has the vision and handles to be a great passer. Kobe can set his guys up better than Bird can off the dribble. Kobe is more than capable of playing PG. Even though Bird has point forward skills, I wouldn't play Bird at point.

As far as shooting, Bird has more range on his shot. But he's NOT a better midrange shooter than Kobe or MJ. If you are talking pure midrange shooting, Kobe, MJ, and the Iceman are guys who take a backseat to NOBODY! Bird belongs in that group has an all time great midrange shooter too. Hell Bird could be the best shooter of all time. But Bird IS NOT a better midrange shooter than Kobe. If anything you slob on Bird's knob! I'm just keeping it real and Kobe is the closest thing to MJ. MJ is better than Bird. And Kobe is close enough to MJ. So Kobe is better than Bird too. But Bird isn't far off in my book either. But MJ and Kobe can do ANYTHING Bird can do pound for pound except prolific three point shooting. And when they get hot, they can kill u from three point range.

Bird can't touch Kobe's defensive capabilities or athletic ability. Kobe's mix of skills and athletic ability enable him to do shit Bird could only dream of. Most guys with those set of skills DIDN'T have that kind of freak athletic ability. MJ was the guy to combine the two and guys like Kobe, Wade, and T Mac followed suit.[/QUOTE]

[B]Bryant can`t Play the Team Defense like Bird
Bryant can`t Pass or Create like Bird
Bryan`t cant Rebound like Bird
As far as Post Game and Mid Range Game: They had to put CFs, PFs and SFs quicker and taller or heavier and still he would fadeway and it was inn
As Far as Pure Shooting Bird was Better than Both Too

Bird is a Better Player than Bryant.

Bird is also a Better Team Player than MJ[/B]

If Kobe can play a couple of years at a high level, then longevity can definitely tilt the comparison in Kobe's favor.

But that's for the people who pay heavy emphasis on longevity. Peak and prime play will always favor Bird.

[QUOTE=The Iron Fist]Heres 4 random players Bird played with

Robert Parrish HOF
Kevin McHale HOF
Dennis Johnson HOF
Bill Walton HOF

Heres 4 random players Kobe played with
Chris Mihm
Kwame Brown
Smush Parker
Shaquille Oneal[/QUOTE]

[B]Don`t Forget to Mention The Team`s Bird Faced in the Difficult 80s.

Don`t forget about Cedric Ceballos, Robert Horry, Byron Scott, Nick Van Exel, Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone etc that played with Kobe as a 2nd Fiddle To Shaq

Don`t forget to mention Gasol : a Future HOF, Bynum and Odom: Best Sixth Man: And a Consistant Big 3 with Bryant at SG.

Kobe`s Career is served with playing with Great Role Players and Future HOFs in a Weak Era of Team vs Team ofcourse[/B]

[QUOTE=catch24]He wasn't "raping" anyone. Especially not with his sub ~ 30% shooting vs the Lakers :oldlol:

Get real.[/QUOTE]

He averaged over 35 ppg per game vs Lakers in finals.

Also had many 30 & 40 points games against Lakers..and 51 point game as well.

Anyway, It's Bird vs Kobe thread.

[QUOTE=pauk]Havlicek > everybody

8 rings[/QUOTE]

Hondo was a stud! Awesome all around player who I feel was the GOAT among SF's until Doc and Bird came along. Some would argue he's still the 2nd SF for a GOAT list. But he's no lower than 3rd or 4th even as of now. In terms of the better player, I think Bird and Kobe are better. But it takes that level of player to be ranked over a Hondo. In terms of ability or a GOAT list.

Many posters have stated correctly that different criteria determines what player to give the edge to. You have a GOAT list which factors talent, solo accolades, team accolades, longevity being great, and numbers. Then u have a list in terms of who is the best player in terms of just talent and peak value. Two different criteria. For example, I would take TMac over every two guard except MJ and Kobe in terms of talent and peak value. But on a GOAT list for SG's, T Mac wouldn't be in the top ten. He would be I'm sure in the top 15-20 though.

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]
Bird is a Better Player than Bryant.

Bird is also a Better Team Player than MJ[/B][/QUOTE]

Who would disagree with that?

Kobe might had better man to man defense tho.... but Bird could do EVERYTHING else better.... literally everything... just name it...

scoring - scoring arsenal (unfortunately he was not selfish / shotjacker so we couldnt see him taking almost 50 FieldGoal attempts in a game like Kobe did)

passing
court vision
rebounding
teamplay
basketball iq
offensive versatility
defensive versatility
clutchness
intangibles
fundamentals
post game
3pt shooting
midrange
ft shooting
efficiency
leadership

jesus... just name anything... he was better at it...

LARRY BIRD WAS EASILY ONE OF THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYERS IN NBA HISTORY (IF NOT THE MOST COMPLETE)..... HE COULD DO EVERYTHING WITH THE BEST OF THEM.......

[QUOTE=DMAVS41]And wouldn't that be dependent on a number of things and your specific criteria?

Couldn't you understand someone valuing longevity and titles heavily ranking Kobe ahead of Bird when its all done?[/QUOTE]

If Kobe were to retire today, I'd be prone to rank him below Bird. Some people may value titles and other various intangibles differently than me, but from what I've seen from their games and the information I've gathered, I just can't fathom how Kobe would be ahead of Bird (even WITH the differences I just spoke of). Bird was more dominant (evident by his MVPs and playoff performances), lead three teams to championships against some of the GREATEST teams ever assembled, was more clutch, had less blemishes in his career (be it in do-or-die situations or flat-out just playing inconsistent basketball), etc. I can go on, but you get the picture.

I just don't see it - so no, I couldn't understand.

[QUOTE=pauk]Who would disagree with that?

Kobe might had better man to man defense tho.... but Bird could do EVERYTHING else better.... literally everything... just name it...[/QUOTE]
Kobe was a better scorer than Bird was especially if we are talking prime/peak years.

[QUOTE=rodman91]He averaged over 35 ppg per game vs Lakers in finals.

[/QUOTE]

And shot 40%, missing 20+ shots a game.

[QUOTE=pauk]

LARRY BIRD WAS EASILY ONE OF THE MOST COMPLETE PLAYERS IN NBA HISTORY..... HE COULD DO EVERYTHING WITH THE BEST OF THEM.......[/QUOTE]
Answer me this then.

If a player came in the league next year, joined the worst team (say, Timberwolves), turned them into a 66 win team, wins the championship, and averages 39ppg, 7apg, 8rpg, 2stl, 2blk, 50% shooting over the season and playoffs, then retires the following year.

Is he the best ever?

[QUOTE=catch24]If Kobe were to retire today, I'd be prone to rank him below Bird. Some people may value titles and other various intangibles differently than me, but from what I've seen from their games and the information I've gathered, I just can't fathom how Kobe would be ahead of Bird (even WITH the differences I just spoke of). Bird was more dominant (evident by his MVPs and playoff performances), lead three teams to championships against some of the GREATEST teams ever assembled, was more clutch, had less blemishes in his career (be it in do-or-die situations or flat-out just playing inconsistent basketball), etc. I can go on, but you get the picture.

I just don't see it - so no, I couldn't understand.[/QUOTE]

I agree with Bird over Kobe, but you acted like its absurd to rank Kobe over Bird all time. It really isn't.....depending on what criteria is used.

Agree to disagree.