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[QUOTE=Ikill][B]His 07 team wasn't crappy[/B] and the teams he played to get to the finals were horrible[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll:
In what way is a team starting Pavlovic, Gooden, Gibson, and Hughes not utterly disgusting? Oh man, I forgot Zydrunas, with his whopping 12 ppg and 8 reb on <50% FG.
Revisionist history at it's finest.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]:roll: :roll:
In what way is a team starting [B]Pavlovic[/B], Gooden, Gibson, and Hughes not utterly disgusting? Oh man, I forgot Zydrunas, with his whopping 12 ppg and 8 reb on <50% FG.
Revisionist history at it's finest.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/5/16/ewwwdogpoo128554238212471286.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=RRR3]Pistons.[/QUOTE]
The Pistons were okay but the Cavs were better
[QUOTE=Ikill]The Pistons were good but LeBron was better[/QUOTE]
Fixed.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]:roll: :roll:
In what way is a team starting Pavlovic, Gooden, Gibson, and Hughes not utterly disgusting? Oh man, I forgot Zydrunas, with his whopping 12 ppg and 8 reb on <50% FG.
Revisionist history at it's finest.[/QUOTE]
They were good enough to get to the finals with LeBron scoring 25 ppg on 41%. :confusedshrug:
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]:roll: :roll:
In what way is a team starting Pavlovic, Gooden, Gibson, and Hughes not utterly disgusting? Oh man, I forgot Zydrunas, with his whopping 12 ppg and 8 reb on <50% FG.
Revisionist history at it's finest.[/QUOTE]
They were a top 5 defensive team and were 3-1 without Lebron. Those players were okay Hughes averaged 15/4/4 Zydrunas averaged 12/8 Gooden averaged 11/9 Marshall Varejao and Snow were okay players too. There is a reason the Cavs kept winning despite Lebron playing so bad during the playoffs.
[QUOTE=RRR3]Fixed.[/QUOTE]
10 points 33% fg Cavs lose by 3
19 points 37% fg Cavs lose by 3
25 points 42% fg Cavs win by 4
20 points 27% fg Cavs win by 16
So Lebron plays horrible 4 out of 6 games and the Cavs win two of those games and keep the other two games very close.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]Spreewell AND Cassell that year were better than anyone the Cavaliers had.
How many games did Cassell take over down the stretch that year? His injury was a huge part of why they lost as well in the playoffs iirc.
Jamison and Shaq weren't on the 66 win team...[/QUOTE]
You said "KG is not taking Cleveland level supporting cast the past 2 years to 60+ wins", [B]I proved its wrong.[/B] KG took worse team than Lebron's 61 win Cavs, to 58 wins and WCF, while facing harder competition.
Would KG get Cavs to 66 wins? We'll never know, however:
24.2/13.9/5.0/1.5/2.2 + DPOY level defense is more impressive than:
28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1
And another thing, while I could see the argument of Lebron carrying better scoring load than KG on a crap team, but on a good team KG is more valuable than Lebron. KG can make [B][I]any [/I][/B]team much better, Lebron cant, it should suit his strengths.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]
LeBron's next leading scorer on the Cavaliers in the playoffs was Mo at 16ppg on 40.8% FG (Think Orlando Series). Spreewell was dropping 20 on higher efficiency, and Cassell 17 at 46.5%. KG actually had two guys that, without him, were still good players. It's not as if they were irrelevant and became relevant by playing with KG and on the Wolves. Mo Williams went from obscurity and being a 2nd/3rd option on a team that was failing to make the playoffs in the East, to winning 66 games alongside LeBron, back to being a nobody after he left...
You were saying?[/QUOTE]
Thats because KG makes teammates better, while Lebron makes his better only in the regular season, not in the Playoffs. Thats when he went to "Lebron mode" and froze out his teammates. What you also miss, is that team doesnt end with 3 players, and Cavs were deeper in both '09 and '10 seasons. Oh, and Cassell was injured too, that makes 2.5 players in Minny vs better team with a better coaching in Cavs.
"back to being a nobody after he left"
Thats because Lebron sabotaged Cavs. Team would have done just fine if they had replaced him with lets say Melo, etc. But if you remove core player team is build around, without replacement, of course it falls apart, common sense. And no, it says nothing about team "being a nobody" without Lebron, thats illogical.
[QUOTE=Harison]You said "KG is not taking Cleveland level supporting cast the past 2 years to 60+ wins", [B]I proved its wrong.[/B] [/QUOTE]
:wtf:
you proved you're a donkey
[QUOTE=Ikill]They were a top 5 defensive team and were 3-1 without Lebron. Those players were okay Hughes averaged 15/4/4 Zydrunas averaged 12/8 Gooden averaged 11/9 Marshall Varejao and Snow were okay players too. There is a reason the Cavs kept winning despite Lebron playing so bad during the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
LeBron didn't play "so bad". This was beaten to death in another thread.
Naming players like Varejao, Snow, Marshall, Gooden, Zydrunas, and Hughes doesn't help your case.
I just had a whole post typed out for Harison but it got deleted. I won't even bother rewriting it at this point but I found a post that should put this into perspective from Kblaze a while back.
:roll: @ disregarding 66 wins simply because "they were in the East".
Also, LeBron's playoff run in 09 >>> any playoff run KG has had...by far.
[QUOTE]I think this is a flawed question to begin with because Lebron isnt said to have no help literally...just none in comparison to others doing what they do. Nobody is calling them the same as the 03 Nuggets or anything. But they are on pace to win what? 60-64 games? consider the teams to EVER win at the rate Lebrons team is doing. This is just off the top of my head....
60s Celtics
Late 60s early 70s Knicks
Wilt 76ers and Lakers
The Celtics briefly with Hondo and Cowens
Kareem and Oscar robertsons bucks. Kareem may have done it before Oscar too.
I dont think anyone else did it in the 70s. 80s? Showtime, Birds Celtics, Docs 76ers maybe the Bucks one or two times, Isiahs Pistons towards the end and one of Drexlers teams won 63 I think. 90s you have Jordans Bulls, Barkleys suns, Ewings knicks one or two times. The Jazz. Zos Heat, the Sonics with Payton, Kemp, detlef, and so on and....The Spurs with Drob. I think the Magic hit 60 with Shaq and Penny once. Shaq won 60s one of those years in La. Maybe...98 I think?
2000s its shaqs lakers, Dirk Mavs, KGs Celtics, the 04 Pistons, Duncans Spurs, and the 03 Pacers. Oh and the Kings. Maybe the Blazers in 99 or 2000 too.
That it?
Im gonna assume the average ISH poster known enough of history that I dont need to run down those teams lineups to show how they blow the Cavs out of the water. Entire list...all history of the NBA? The only teams I see with a similar level of talent(defensive or otherwise) after its #1 that the Cavs have to work with after Bron?
Drobs Spurs unless the year they hit 60 was with Rodman, Elliot, and Avery as I think it was. Id take Rodman over anyone on the cavs period...as a defensive talent? Its a blowout.
Duncans 03 Spurs. Manu and Parker were far from stars. They had better defensive players though so if we are falling back on that to make up for offense....they are also more talented than the cavs. Peak Bowen and even an old Drob were bigger defensive talents than Lebron has to work with. Ben Wallace is still a force on his good nights but hes hardly still big Ben. Hes more....Medium Ben. Smedium eve. I watched him for 2 years on the Bulls. Hes not an every night star anymore.
If you want to call Stockton, Hornacek, and company untalented....fine. But you cant defend it. Hornacek in his prime was better than anyone but Bron on the cavs is. HE was an all star the year before he got to the Jazz. He just let a lot go to play his role. Besides...anyone gonna take anyone on the cavs over the best "pure" point of all time backed by Jerry Sloan on the bench?
What else we got? I cant think of any more of those teams even begin to compare talent wise to Lebrons. The worst may well be the 2003 Mavs who had 2MVPs and Finley and Vanexel. Them or Ewings Kniocks...with Starks, Oakley, Smith, Mason and company. Cant talk about defense being a talent and rank these Cavs as equals of those teams.
Lebron has to me easily the worst or among the worst supporting casts offensive or overall to even win the way he is now. some of them dont play the same D as the Cavs but if you tell me you want to build a team with Mo, Z, Anderson, 09 Ben Wallace, west, Wally, and Gibson as your supporting players....and not say....Tim Hardaway, Mashburn, Majerle, Pj Brown, Bowen, and Lenard? Or Shawn Kemp,/Payton whoever you put #2 Detlef, Nate,and those ballhawks?
Then youre a liar. The Cavs arent talented compared to teams that win like them. They arent even that talented compared to teams that dont win.
Will someone tell me how Wade, Marion, Haslem, Beasley and so on are miles less talented than Lebron, Z, West, Andy, and Wally? The Cavs arent that deep either. Take the first 5 players off that team and you could easily have the depthchart equal to the bottom 10 roster spots of most bad teams. They are neither deep nor top heavy Lebron aside. What they are is consistient, hard working, and led by one of the best players to ever step on a basketball court.
But they are not exceptional talents even if we consider defense as a talent. The Bulls have more talented indidivual defensive players than the Cavs for gods sake. Kirk, Deng, Tyrus, Noah, Hunter, and Hughes? as defensive talents they murder the Cavs role players. Just slaughter. And yet....they dont win.
But they would if they had Lebron. And then they would be talented I guess.
Lebrons Cavs are no more talented than the average NBA team. Winning doesnt always mean the team is talented. Just means they play well together. If chemistry is an individual talent? fine. One of the better teams in the league. But it isnt. Its very idea is based on togetherness. Cant be individually talented at chemistry I dont think, And if you could few of those players proved they were elsewhere.
Lebron isnt the entire reason they play well.....but hes enough of it that we dont need to be looking hard and redefining talent to find why they are winning.
With Lebron on that team you could replace anyone they lost by randomly selecting names from a hat and win 52-65 wins depending on who you get. Nobody but him even deserves a mention far as what they lost. They lost Lebron and 100% totally interchangeable parts. Guy took a team as bad as or worse than they have now to the finals when he was a good bit worse than he is now.
Lebron is one of the few people you can honestly say is the difference between worst team in the league...and a contender. He just is. The rest of those guys they lost...were he still there? Nobody would give a damn. Anderson is the only major loss going forward and they are on an 18-20 win pace with him so...not like he was doing anything that mattered.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]LeBron didn't play "so bad". This was beaten to death in another thread.
Naming players like Varejao, Snow, Marshall, Gooden, Zydrunas, and Hughes doesn't help your case.[/QUOTE]
They were a top 5 defensive team and the Cavs were 3-1 without Lebron. Lebron had some pretty bad games during the 07 playoffs he averaged 25 points on 41% overall and the Cavs still made the finals.
[QUOTE=Ikill]They were a top 5 defensive team and the Cavs were 3-1 without Lebron. Lebron had some pretty bad games during the 07 playoffs he averaged 25 points on 41% overall and the Cavs still made the finals.[/QUOTE]
Being a good defensive team doesn't mean his supporting cast was talented. Not sure why you keep pointing that out.
The 06 Griz were ranked #2; who here was commenting on Gasol's supporting cast being great and finals worthy?
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]Being a good defensive team doesn't mean his supporting cast was talented. Not sure why you keep pointing that out.
The 06 Griz were ranked #2; who here was commenting on Gasol's supporting cast being great and finals worthy?[/QUOTE]
defense is half the game. The 06 Grizzlies played in the west they would have no problem beating the 07 Wizards Nets and Pistons. The 07 Cavs were a decent team that got to play in a very weak east Lebron did nothing impressive other than that one game.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]I just had a whole post typed out for Harison but it got deleted. I won't even bother rewriting it at this point but I found a post that should put this into perspective from Kblaze a while back.
:roll: @ disregarding 66 wins simply because "they were in the East".[/QUOTE]
I addressed two points in this thread:
1. "Not a chance in hell that cavs team had a better supporting cast than that wolves team."
Wrong claim, proven here:
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6323546&postcount=37"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6323546&postcount=37[/URL]
2. "KG is not taking Cleveland level supporting cast the past 2 years to 60+ wins".
In '10 Cavs won 61 games with the better cast than KG [B]ever [/B]had in Wolves. Still Garnett had 58 wins in tougher conference and got team to WCF, and might even had won it all if not a string of injuries on the team. Hence your claim is wrong, at least talking about '10.
In '09 its debatable, I dont know (neither do you) if KG could get those Cavs to 66 wins, probably not, although argument can be made either way:
24.2/13.9/5.0/1.5/2.2 + DPOY level defense is more impressive than:
28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]
Also, LeBron's playoff run in 09 >>> any playoff run KG has had...by far.[/QUOTE]
Two things wrong with this claim:
1. Cavs moved from the [B]team [/B]play which got them 66 wins, to [B]Lebron ball.[/B] He didnt got teammates properly involved, hence Lebron could stat pad all day while keeping the ball in his hands, this wouldnt win the rings. Case and point - young Jordan was tearing through Playoffs, but didnt trusted his teammates in the Playoffs as well, till Phil taught him better.
Jordan (and Wilt, and others) started winning when instead of stat pading they started playing team game. And dont get started about "but Lebron didnt had anyone to trust on the team", he did had enough for 66 wins, just he moved from the success formula to "hero" mode.
2. Playoffs best:
Lebron '09 : 35.3/9.1/7.3, 51% FG, Ball usage: 36.4%
Garnett '03: 27.0/15.7/5.2, 51% FG, Ball usage: 28.7%, plus DPOY level defender.
Lebrons stats slightly better, however ball usage is insane. So it depends how much you value defense. Even if you dont care about defense at all, still your claim "LeBron's playoff run in 09 >>> any playoff run KG has had...by far" is simply wrong, but if one does value defense, KG's best are as good as Lebron ever had.
[QUOTE=Harison]I addressed two points in this thread:
1. "Not a chance in hell that cavs team had a better supporting cast than that wolves team."
Wrong claim, proven here:
[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6323546&postcount=37"]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6323546&postcount=37[/URL]
2. "KG is not taking Cleveland level supporting cast the past 2 years to 60+ wins".
In '10 Cavs won 61 games with the better cast than KG [B]ever [/B]had in Wolves. Still Garnett had 58 wins in tougher conference and got team to WCF, and might even had won it all if not a string of injuries on the team. Hence your claim is wrong, at least talking about '10.
In '09 its debatable, I dont know (neither do you) if KG could get those Cavs to 66 wins, probably not, although argument can be made either way:
24.2/13.9/5.0/1.5/2.2 + DPOY level defense is more impressive than:
28.4/7.6/7.2/1.7/1.1
Two things wrong with this claim:
[B]1. Cavs moved from the [B]team [/B]play which got them 66 wins, to [B]Lebron ball.[/B] He didnt got teammates properly involved, hence Lebron could stat pad all day while keeping the ball in his hands, this wouldnt win the rings. [/B]Case and point - young Jordan was tearing through Playoffs, but didnt trusted his teammates in the Playoffs as well, till Phil taught him better.
Jordan (and Wilt, and others) started winning when instead of stat pading they started playing team game. And dont get started about "but Lebron didnt had anyone to trust on the team", he did had enough for 66 wins, just he moved from the success formula to "hero" mode.
2. Playoffs best:
Lebron '09 : 35.3/9.1/7.3, 51% FG, Ball usage: 36.4%
Garnett '03: 27.0/15.7/5.2, 51% FG, Ball usage: 28.7%, plus DPOY level defender.
Lebrons stats slightly better, however ball usage is insane. So it depends how much you value defense. Even if you dont care about defense at all, still your claim "LeBron's playoff run in 09 >>> any playoff run KG has had...by far" is simply wrong, but if one does value defense, KG's best are as good as Lebron ever had.[/QUOTE]
To the bold. I disagree. You do know that the Cavs went 8-0 before playing the Magic. Lebron was forced to do all the things you claim because his teammates came crashing back to reality and started playing like the very average players that they were.
And no, there is no way in hell that KG could ever have taken that 09 Cavs to 66 wins. Sorry.
They both had breakout seasons and got to the Conference Finals but got eliminated because of a below average team. I guess that is the similarity
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]To the bold. I disagree. You do know that the Cavs went 8-0 before playing the Magic. Lebron was forced to do all the things you claim because his teammates came crashing back to reality and started playing like the very average players that they were.
And no, there is no way in hell that KG could ever have taken that 09 Cavs to 66 wins. Sorry.[/QUOTE]
Whatever magic Lebron did to take cavs to 66 wins is irrelevant because it obviously does not work in the post season. Gets him great stats yes but does not get his team wins when the other team is actually half decent.
In 2009 they only managed to beat detroit and atlanta for gods sake! 2 really awful teams. I believe all 8 teams in the West could have beaten Detroit, Atlanta and Orlando to get to the finals.
[QUOTE=knightfall88]Whatever magic Lebron did to take cavs to 66 wins is irrelevant because it obviously does not work in the post season. Gets him great stats yes but does not get his team wins when the other team is actually half decent.
In 2009 they only managed to beat detroit and atlanta for gods sake! 2 really awful teams. I believe all 8 teams in the West could have beaten Detroit, Atlanta and Orlando to get to the finals.[/QUOTE]
Its not magic...its called playing at a level that only a handful of players in the history of the game have reached.
It didn't work? They won 66 games and got the conference finals. They lost because the Cavs had an average coach at best and a bunch of very average players. Had nothing to do with Lebron in 09....the fact that people still try to blame him for the Cavs not reaching the finals that year is just laughable.
You should really go back and watch that series. Mo was awful...and Howard destroyed the Cavs. Still not sure how either of those things are on Lebron. It falls on him to guard centers now?
:roll: at linking to your own post that did nothing to contribute to the argument when you originally posted it and thinking it would do anything now. Not to mention you moved on to the 61 win team, not the 66 win team that didn't even have Jamison or Shaq.
Right, it's not the fact that his team was complete garbage and untalented relative to other teams anywhere NEAR their win%, it's the fact that it's LeBron's fault and that's all there is to it. That clears it all up.
Dude is getting hated on for how terrible his untalented team played, now? And how he "stat padded" despite doing nearly everything necessary for his team to win throughout that season? Give me a guy who "stat pads" all day if my team, with that level of talent, is going to win 66 games.
On a side note, it's funny that no one can point out exactly what LeBron "stat-pads". There was a thread on this that I made, and not an ounce of evidence was provided. He was sitting out plenty of 4th quarters that year too, and plenty if not all games that got out of reach. Producing efficiently with great numbers is now only attributed to stat-padding. Someone should remind us that every time anyone has a great game.
It's the same rehashed BS with no logic and reasoning whatsoever when it comes to LeBron. I'm not sure why I even bother with specific posters here.
[QUOTE=Doranku]They were good enough to get to the finals with LeBron scoring 25 ppg on 41%. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
Lebron was averaging 26/8+/8+ on 43.4% FG, or 54 TS% through the Pistons series. Impressive considering this was clearly his worst year aside from his rookie season.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]:roll: at linking to your own post that did nothing to contribute to the argument when you originally posted it and thinking it would do anything now. Not to mention you moved on to the 61 win team, not the 66 win team that didn't even have Jamison or Shaq.[/QUOTE]
Then read my posts again, I didnt had to "moved on to the 61 win team", you mentioned 61 wins team among Cavs teams whom "KG wouldnt get to 60+", I proved you wrong, posts are still up if you want to read up :rolleyes: My posts are based on pure logic and facts, if you have data on the contrary - provide it.
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]
Dude is getting hated on for how terrible his untalented team played, now? And how he "stat padded" despite doing nearly everything necessary for his team to win throughout that season? Give me a guy who "stat pads" all day if my team, with that level of talent, is going to win 66 games. [/QUOTE]
I do have a good memory, how Cavs fans claimed they should win it all those seasons, Cavs were heavy favorites among experts too. After they lost, excuses started :oldlol: In '10 it was again, "now we REALLY wont have any excuses", Cavs lost, excuses started :roll:
[QUOTE=Simple Jack]
On a side note, it's funny that no one can point out exactly what LeBron "stat-pads". [/QUOTE]
Simple, he overplays the ball in his hands till he makes something out of it. In the regular season Lebron usually set up his teammates well enough, however in the Playoffs I remember many occasions how Lebron froze out his teammates, and they couldnt get into rhythm. Many possessions with Lebron dribbling the ball almost out of time, and when he couldnt do something for himself, he passed the ball for bail out shot. Thats a bad team game. Cavs fans themselves were criticizing Lebron for it.
[QUOTE=Harison]
Simple, he overplays the ball in his hands till he makes something out of it. In the regular season Lebron usually set up his teammates well enough, however in the Playoffs I remember many occasions how Lebron froze out his teammates, and they couldnt get into rhythm. Many possessions with Lebron dribbling the ball almost out of time, and when he couldnt do something for himself, he passed the ball for bail out shot. Thats a bad team game. Cavs fans themselves were criticizing Lebron for it.
[/QUOTE]
i sorta agree with this, but mostly not.
maybe lebron didnt trust his teammates enough, but really, none of those guys ever have shown that they can consistently make plays for themselves, before or after lebron.
delonte could make a step back j here and there, and mo could hit a pullup off of a pick and roll, or occassionally get into the lane to create for himself or a big man, jamison could post up to a degree of success, but nobody on lebron's teams in cleveland was ever a legit second option to generate offense.
and i think this has hurt lebron's development. he never had a second guy to rely on, and along with this, he never had to learn to co-exist with another offensive play maker, so now that he is in miami he has to learn a whole other side to basketball, in playing along another capable play maker.
[QUOTE=chips93]i sorta agree with this, but mostly not.
maybe lebron didnt trust his teammates enough, but really, none of those guys ever have shown that they can consistently make plays for themselves, before or after lebron.
delonte could make a step back j here and there, and mo could hit a pullup off of a pick and roll, or occassionally get into the lane to create for himself or a big man, jamison could post up to a degree of success, but nobody on lebron's teams in cleveland was ever a legit second option to generate offense.
and i think this has hurt lebron's development. he never had a second guy to rely on, and along with this, he never had to learn to co-exist with another offensive play maker, so now that he is in miami he has to learn a whole other side to basketball, in playing along another capable play maker.[/QUOTE]
this is why a lot of people think players should go to college at least 2 years. lebron is a huge victim of circumstances. he never had the chance to develop as a player. high school straight to the worst team in the league with no veteran players or solid foundation to learn. it was a one man show for lebron from age 10 to 25. last year was the first year of his basketball life in which he played with quality teammates.
it really is a shame. i can't imagine what kind of player he'd be today if he spent a year or two learning to play in a system at Duke or something.
Lebron is at fault as well for not developing certain aspects of his game, but generally speaking he's never been in the situation (until now) to learn how to play basketball without being a 1 man show.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]this is why a lot of people think players should go to college at least 2 years. lebron is a huge victim of circumstances. he never had the chance to develop as a player. high school straight to the worst team in the league with no veteran players or solid foundation to learn. it was a one man show for lebron from age 10 to 25. last year was the first year of his basketball life in which he played with quality teammates.
it really is a shame. i can't imagine what kind of player he'd be today if he spent a year or two learning to play in a system at Duke or something.
Lebron is at fault as well for not developing certain aspects of his game, but generally speaking he's never been in the situation (until now) to learn how to play basketball without being a 1 man show.[/QUOTE]
nice post, id agree with most of it
im not sure what kind of lebron we'd have today had he been forced to play with some real quality teammates when he was younger, or went to college, having said all that, a young player having the freedom to make mistakes, to dominate the ball, and to be creative, can help develop a player
young players need freedom to develop, and while that freedom may have stunted lebron's growth in seom areas, i dont think we can unequivocally say that lebron would be a better player having played with more restrictions.
so really, i cant say either way whether the freedom lebron had for his entire basketball life up until this season was a good or bad influence on him. its definitely an interesting topic though.
Harison's has made some points that I agree with on why I think Lebron's 09 season is a bit overrated. It really depends on the context of how you view Lebron that season as a player.
From an indvidual perspective, he was about as good as it gets. However, from a team perspective? I'd hestitate to take him ahead of most of the all-time greats (let's say top 9-10). In other words, Lebron's skill at that point in time fits in very well for a team of mediocre talent. However, what's 09 Lebron gonna do when there's good talent on the roster? That's still a player who's a mediocre FT shooter, can't post up, can't play off the ball, and has a limited iso game as far as moves goes.
That's just my opinion anyways. I'd take Lebron over Garnett if both players had teams that fit a high-school style of play, but if we're talking about building actual teams, i'd probably take Garnett.
[QUOTE=Harison]Then read my posts again, I didnt had to "moved on to the 61 win team", you mentioned 61 wins team among Cavs teams whom "KG wouldnt get to 60+", I proved you wrong, posts are still up if you want to read up :rolleyes: My posts are based on pure logic and facts, if you have data on the contrary - provide it. [/QUOTE]
Drawing baseless conclusions about the 2010 team isn't proving anything.
Facts are, Spreewell and Cassell were >> anything LeBron had to work with and certainly more reliable in the playoffs.
58 wins is a bit different than 66.
[QUOTE=cteach111]Harison's has made some points that I agree with on why I think Lebron's 09 season is a bit overrated. It really depends on the context of how you view Lebron that season as a player.
From an indvidual perspective, he was about as good as it gets. However, from a team perspective? I'd hestitate to take him ahead of most of the all-time greats (let's say top 9-10). In other words, Lebron's skill at that point in time fits in very well for a team of mediocre talent. [B]However, what's 09 Lebron gonna do when there's good talent on the roster? That's still a player who's a mediocre FT shooter, can't post up, can't play off the ball, and has a limited iso game as far as moves goes. [/B]
That's just my opinion anyways. I'd take Lebron over Garnett if both players had teams that fit a high-school style of play, but if we're talking about building actual teams, i'd probably take Garnett.[/QUOTE]
Lebron certainly has some flaws, but how about just giving him players that are good and fit well with him. Its not like Lebron has to either have a sorry roster or a stacked roster with a player that plays just like him in Wade.
Take the 09 team. How about just give it a quality all nba player. Give the 09 Cavs a Bosh or Gasol. That is what they needed. Its not like the 09 roster needed a huge makeover. It just needed a reliable 2nd option and a threat to score from the post.
I've been really hard on Lebron after this year...and rightfully so...but I think people forget that he's playing alongside a player in Wade that is a terrible fit for him. It would be like Jordan and Kobe playing on the same team. Yea, they might win because they are so great individually....just like Lebron and Wade might win....but its not a great fit. If you had the chance to put an elite player alongside Lebron....Wade would be one of the last players you would choose. Two players that need the ball to be effective and can't consistently make spot up shots is far from optimal.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
Take the 09 team. [B] How about just give it a quality all nba player. Give the 09 Cavs a Bosh or Gasol. That is what they needed.[/B] Its not like the 09 roster needed a huge makeover. It just needed a reliable 2nd option and [B]a threat to score from the post.[/B][/QUOTE]
Honestly, I don't even think so.
Yes, the lack of a better 2nd option was exposed, and if Mo shoots anywhere near as well as he usually does(instead of 37% like in the ECF), then the Cavs make it to the '09 finals at least.
But even with that, it came down to Orlando being a bad match up with lewis at the 4 and nobody to guard Howard, and also everything going wrong.
Games 1 and 4 are Cleveland victories if not for a single 3 by Lewis at the end of each game(or end of regulation in game 4).
And as good as Howard was(and I think he was already a top 4 player in the league), you simply don't expect him to do the things that he did in that series. Nobody would've said he'd average 26/13/3 on not only 65% from the field, but 70% from the line. Nobody would've thought he'd score 10 points in OT in game 4 or drop 40 in any game, much less to close out the series.
And it's pretty amazing that Lebron kept Cleveland competitive with bad luck and Orlando being a horrible match up for them(as well as a very talented team).
Now, Lebron wasn't perfect(nobody is), but it'd be really picky to point out his play down the stretch in game 4 and his quiet game 6 given how unstoppable he was throughout the series(39/8/8, 49 FG% with the gamewinner in game 2).
But honestly, the best realistic scenario is '09 Ray Allen on that team in place in place of either Mo or Delonte. Better player than either, but not even all-nba by that point. But Ray would've also been an ideal fit due to his ability to play off the ball. I think Cleveland wins a title if he has Ray, and not even just adding him to the Cavs, but replacing one of their guards and I think that's enough to put them over the top given Lebron's historically great play, the Cavs defense, rebounding and shoting. The '09 Cavs players fit well around him, but that's merely a good cast and built for the regular season.
And something that nobody brings up is that while Brown is a very good defensive coach, other all time greats like Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan ect. were all winning with superior coaches, and that's very important in a series. I don't see Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich or Pat Riley looking as clueless as Brown and failing to make adjustments during that series.
I blame Lebron more for 2010 because despite being on a less talented team, you can reasonably say that Cleveland could've won that series if Lebron plays anywhere near his usual level the final 3 games(when they had a 2-1 lead). The same can't be said for 2009 when Lebron did just about all you could ask an individual to do in that series.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Honestly, I don't even think so.
Yes, the lack of a better 2nd option was exposed, and if Mo shoots anywhere near as well as he usually does(instead of 37% like in the ECF), then the Cavs make it to the '09 finals at least.
But even with that, it came down to Orlando being a bad match up with lewis at the 4 and nobody to guard Howard, and also everything going wrong.
Games 1 and 4 are Cleveland victories if not for a single 3 by Lewis at the end of each game(or end of regulation in game 4).
And as good as Howard was(and I think he was already a top 4 player in the league), you simply don't expect him to do the things that he did in that series. Nobody would've said he'd average 26/13/3 on not only 65% from the field, but 70% from the line. Nobody would've thought he'd score 10 points in OT in game 4 or drop 40 in any game, much less to close out the series.
And it's pretty amazing that Lebron kept Cleveland competitive with bad luck and Orlando being a horrible match up for them(as well as a very talented team).
Now, Lebron wasn't perfect(nobody is), but it'd be really picky to point out his play down the stretch in game 4 and his quiet game 6 given how unstoppable he was throughout the series(39/8/8, 49 FG% with the gamewinner in game 2).
But honestly, the best realistic scenario is '09 Ray Allen on that team in place in place of either Mo or Delonte. Better player than either, but not even all-nba by that point. But Ray would've also been an ideal fit due to his ability to play off the ball. I think Cleveland wins a title if he has Ray, and not even just adding him to the Cavs, but replacing one of their guards and I think that's enough to put them over the top given Lebron's historically great play, the Cavs defense, rebounding and shoting. The '09 Cavs players fit well around him, but that's merely a good cast and built for the regular season.
And something that nobody brings up is that while Brown is a very good defensive coach, other all time greats like Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan ect. were all winning with superior coaches, and that's very important in a series. I don't see Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich or Pat Riley looking as clueless as Brown and failing to make adjustments during that series.
I blame Lebron more for 2010 because despite being on a less talented team, you can reasonably say that Cleveland could've won that series if Lebron plays anywhere near his usual level the final 3 games(when they had a 2-1 lead). The same can't be said for 2009 when Lebron did just about all you could ask an individual to do in that series.[/QUOTE]
Well sure. They were already close with the very average roster they had....but that might not have been enough to beat the Lakers.
Ray Allen is a great fit on paper, but even he is not immune to going cold from the field....as we saw him in 2010 finals.
I would have just loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another top 15 or 20 player in the NBA that actually complemented his game. Usually that is what it takes to win. Two all nba players, a quality supporting cast, and a good to great coach.
Until this year, Lebron has simply never had that.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Well sure. They were already close with the very average roster they had....but that might not have been enough to beat the Lakers.
Ray Allen is a great fit on paper, but even he is not immune to going cold from the field....as we saw him in 2010 finals.
I would have just loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another top 15 or 20 player in the NBA that actually complemented his game. Usually that is what it takes to win. Two all nba players, a quality supporting cast, and a good to great coach.
Until this year, Lebron has simply never had that.[/QUOTE]
Rip Hamilton would've been the best fit IMO. Though one of the big problems I think has become apparent though is that he needs the ball way to much. Even Shaq didn't really fit with Cleveland in 10 because when they ran anything through the post Lebron didn't do anything but stand around.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]
It would be like Jordan and Kobe playing on the same team.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure why you think this wouldn't work. Both players have every skill in the book. They both defend. Would taking over a game be an issue? Maybe. I don't think it would be though.
However, as far as them being able to coexist on the court, it would work. The only problem i see is that neither are a true SF. MJ could do it, but i'd rather have a bigger body for that position.
[QUOTE=cteach111]I'm not sure why you think this wouldn't work. Both players have every skill in the book. They both defend. Would taking over a game be an issue? Maybe. I don't think it would be though.
However, as far as them being able to coexist on the court, it would work. The only problem i see is that neither are a true SF. MJ could do it, but i'd rather have a bigger body for that position.[/QUOTE]
What is your definition of work? I mean, Lebron and Wade worked to a degree this year. They both put up great numbers and they both were beasts on defense. They made the NBA finals.....and they did all of that while having one of the worst benches in the history of the league.
Like I said, Kobe and Jordan could work because they are so great...but that doesn't mean its optimal.
You would simply rather have a player like Pippen next to MJ than Kobe....Kobe is obviously better, but you don't need two guys that want to get 30 every night and need the ball in their hands a lot. Could it work? Sure...but its not a great fit.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Well sure. They were already close with the very average roster they had....but that might not have been enough to beat the Lakers.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but I don't think LA would have caused as many match up problems as Orlando did. And at the very least, Cleveland would have clear advantages at 2 positions(PG and SF), center as well if you're looking at starting lineups considering Bynum was injured and so foul prone, but because of that, Odom came in and played starters minutes with Gasol at center so LA really has the advantages on paper at 3 positions and the superior coach.
Either way, I don't see Odom doing what Lewis did to Cleveland simply because he's not the 3 point shooter Lewis was. Lewis led the NBA in 3s made and during the Cleveland series he could pretty much get open 3s, or put the ball on the floor and get an easy shot if one of Cleveland's 4s tried to get out and guard him. And as good as Gasol is, he's not going to dominate to the extent that Howard did.
But it probably would've been a great series because Lebron and Kobe were both playing so well. Lebron was playing the best basketball of his career and even Kobe was playing some of the best basketball of his longer career during the '09 playoffs.
[QUOTE]Ray Allen is a great fit on paper, but even he is not immune to going cold from the field....as we saw him in 2010 finals.
I would have just loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another top 15 or 20 player in the NBA that actually complemented his game. Usually that is what it takes to win. Two all nba players, a quality supporting cast, and a good to great coach.
Until this year, Lebron has simply never had that.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and Ray didn't have a good series vs Orlando in 2009, but he was still an all-star(and not a particularly questionable all-star like Mo), about as good of a fit as I can see looking over both the all-nba and all-star teams and he had a great season. He finished 2nd in TS%, 2nd in 3s made, 2nd in FT%, 5th in eFG% and averaged 18+ ppg. And even if it was a triple OT game, you have to be a real threat to score 51 in a playoff game as Ray did in 2009.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yeah, but I don't think LA would have caused as many match up problems as Orlando did. And at the very least, Cleveland would have clear advantages at 2 positions(PG and SF), center as well if you're looking at starting lineups considering Bynum was injured and so foul prone, but because of that, Odom came in and played starters minutes with Gasol at center so LA really has the advantages on paper at 3 positions and the superior coach.
Either way, I don't see Odom doing what Lewis did to Cleveland simply because he's not the 3 point shooter Lewis was. Lewis led the NBA in 3s made and during the Cleveland series he could pretty much get open 3s, or put the ball on the floor and get an easy shot if one of Cleveland's 4s tried to get out and guard him. And as good as Gasol is, he's not going to dominate to the extent that Howard did.
But it probably would've been a great series because Lebron and Kobe were both playing so well. Lebron was playing the best basketball of his career and even Kobe was playing some of the best basketball of his longer career during the '09 playoffs.
Yeah, and Ray didn't have a good series vs Orlando in 2009, but he was still an all-star(and not a particularly questionable all-star like Mo), about as good of a fit as I can see looking over both the all-nba and all-star teams and he had a great season. He finished 2nd in TS%, 2nd in 3s made, 2nd in FT%, 5th in eFG% and averaged 18+ ppg. And even if it was a triple OT game, you have to be a real threat to score 51 in a playoff game as Ray did in 2009.[/QUOTE]
For sure. I love their chances with Ray Allen....its just not a slam dunk for sure title or anything.
But we agree. The 09 team was close...and possibly could have won the title with what they had. That team really did suffer from some terrible luck against the Magic. Mo was awful, and the Lewis made those big shots....even if he just misses one...I bet the Cavs win.
However, that doesn't change the fact that the 09 Cavs were a flawed team. I just would have loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another quality player that fit well with him. You see teams with:
Duncan/Manu/Parker
KG/Pierce/Allen
Kobe/Gasol/Odom
Those teams all had quality supporting casts and coaching as well. I would love to have seen what Lebron could have done playing with similar talent that fit around him. Lebron/Allen/Bosh....I know its crazy to say this after we just saw Lebron/Wade/Bosh lose with some decent player 4 through 8, but I don't see how that team doesn't win in 09....and really 10 as well.
I actually think that Joe Johnson would have been a great fit on the Cavs. Mo/JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z in 09 would have been sick. JJ would be a great fit in my opinion because he's perfectly suited for that 2nd option role. He's a knock down shooter. He can create his own shot. He doesn't want to be the superstar and dominate the ball. And he's capable of guarding sg's even though he's big. The size alone of JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z would be a great asset. Mo could do less creating and just spot up more...which is really what he's good at. I think that ability of someone else being able to create for themselves or others consistently is really important. That is what has killed Mo in the playoffs. He's been asked to do too much for what he's capable of. Mo is a third option on a contending team....and a really good one in my opinion. JJ would have given that team another guy to rely on to create and score...and also another knock down shooter to space the floor.
And is not like Mo/JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z is some amazingly stacked team that is unfair or something...it would just be the norm for title winning teams.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]For sure. I love their chances with Ray Allen....its just not a slam dunk for sure title or anything.
But we agree. The 09 team was close...and possibly could have won the title with what they had. That team really did suffer from some terrible luck against the Magic. Mo was awful, and the Lewis made those big shots....even if he just misses one...I bet the Cavs win.
However, that doesn't change the fact that the 09 Cavs were a flawed team. I just would have loved to see Lebron play from 07 through 10 with another quality player that fit well with him. You see teams with:
Duncan/Manu/Parker
KG/Pierce/Allen
Kobe/Gasol/Odom
Those teams all had quality supporting casts and coaching as well. I would love to have seen what Lebron could have done playing with similar talent that fit around him. Lebron/Allen/Bosh....I know its crazy to say this after we just saw Lebron/Wade/Bosh lose with some decent player 4 through 8, but I don't see how that team doesn't win in 09....and really 10 as well.
I actually think that Joe Johnson would have been a great fit on the Cavs. Mo/JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z in 09 would have been sick. JJ would be a great fit in my opinion because he's perfectly suited for that 2nd option role. He's a knock down shooter. He can create his own shot. He doesn't want to be the superstar and dominate the ball. And he's capable of guarding sg's even though he's big. The size alone of JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z would be a great asset. Mo could do less creating and just spot up more...which is really what he's good at. I think that ability of someone else being able to create for themselves or others consistently is really important. That is what has killed Mo in the playoffs. He's been asked to do too much for what he's capable of. Mo is a third option on a contending team....and a really good one in my opinion. JJ would have given that team another guy to rely on to create and score...and also another knock down shooter to space the floor.
And is not like Mo/JJ/Lebron/Andy/Z is some amazingly stacked team that is unfair or something...it would just be the norm for title winning teams.[/QUOTE]
I don't trust Joe at all in the playoffs, I'd much rather have Ray, who, imo had a better season in '09 and also seems like a better fit with Lebron. But Lebron/Bosh/Allen with that type of defense and 3 point shooting is really loaded.
I still think that Miami will win a title or 2, and Bosh seems to have found his place on the team(during the end of the season and during the playoffs, Bosh fitting in was no longer a problem, imo).
Actually the funny thing is that Miami was looking like the team that many expected them to be prior to the finals. So in the end, I'm not sure if the fit is as much of a problem.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I don't trust Joe at all in the playoffs, I'd much rather have Ray, who, imo had a better season in '09 and also seems like a better fit with Lebron. But Lebron/Bosh/Allen with that type of defense and 3 point shooting is really loaded.
I still think that Miami will win a title or 2, and Bosh seems to have found his place on the team(during the end of the season and during the playoffs, Bosh fitting in was no longer a problem, imo).
Actually the funny thing is that Miami was looking like the team that many expected them to be prior to the finals. So in the end, I'm not sure if the fit is as much of a problem.[/QUOTE]
I think JJ is a victim of circumstances in the playoffs. He's not a number 1 guy. Yet he's asked to be....and that is why he doesn't come through. If you put him next to Lebron...I think you would see a much different player. That is just my opinion though.
Fit will always be an issue for the Heat. They can definitely overcome it, but it will always be an issue. Wade/Lebron will not just randomly become spot up shooters or excellent off ball players. The only hope for Heat fans is that Lebron actually develops a low post game and pretty much plays out of low block or wing post exclusively while Wade is on the floor. I don't see that happening though. The team still has no threat to score on the low block consistently...as Bosh is forced to float around the perimeter taking jumpers because he's a bitch and because that fits better with Wade/Lebron.
Having said that, that team is a quality backup sg that can spot up and a starting center away from being by far the best team in the league. But it will never be optimal...it can't be when you have two ball dominant players on the perimeter that can't consistently shoot.
A guy even like George hill would be a great role player to fit besides lebron an wade in spot minutes