Scoring Wise:Kareem Abdul Jabbar vs Wilt Chamberlain?

I'll generally agree with kblaze's post the most. I believe Wilt would shoot better than 60% for his whole career had he decided to leave aside his finesse moves and get better team results, although Kareem would have the obvious advantage in FT shooting. Having said that:

[QUOTE]And based on offensive skillset this shouldn't be a debate.[/QUOTE]

If you define skillset as the main "go to" move and maybe dribbling in traffic, then maybe. But going beyond this, sorry, but I just don't see why there's not a debate on offensive skillset. You are among the ones who state they are "unimpressed" by Wilt's skillset after viewing him making fade-aways, jump shots, generally tough shots that not many big men can make (speaking of this, here's a new clip of college footage, apart from the one I posted some time ago [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB43A-ODuLc)[/url]. Well, I ask you, what makes you (I suppose) impressed by Kareem's moves apart from his main one? It seems like every time some people (including most Wilt naysayers) see Kareem make some good finesse move, they act as if they saw some super rare acrobatic Jordan move or a super quick Dream Shake. Hell, it sometimes even makes news that Kareem took and made jump shots, since most people are too used on seeing him only taking sky-hooks. I've seen the same people claim that Wilt was bothered when double-teammed, but I don't remember Kareem not being at least equally bothered when he didn't have the space to launch a sky-hook, either. I remember having seen a couple of plays when he had to take a few tougher than average jump-shots and missed badly (airballing). Some times he'd make a few good moves that people view as incredible, and other times he'd just fail.

I've never argued against Kareem being among the most skilled big men ever (hell, he's among my own favorite players ever, and I've maintained that he had the GOAT overall basketball career ever - I know that people including my fellow Wilt fan Jlauber may disagree with this), but I find it weird that people going against Wilt's skills to take shots speak that highly of Kareem's own ones, as if he's on Dirk's or prime Hakeem's level at this field. I would agree if you compared Wilt to Dirk (then again, I'll obviously take Wilt overall), but Wilt to Kareem, sorry, if I'm not supposed to be that impressed with prime Wilt, I don't see why I should be with Kareem.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I agree 100%. Wilt's scoring numbers(particularly early 60's) were largely a product of their era. I don't know why the 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA aren't brought up every time the 50.4 ppg are. Not to mention the 48.5 mpg which included him playing every minute of 40, even 50 point blowouts. And then dropping to 35 ppg on Iverson-esque TS% in the playoffs.

Along with the pace of the game rapidly slowing, the lane widening and starting centers(rotation players getting bigger), his scoring numbers started coming down to earth, and they always did in the playoffs.

Not to mention that in his his 2 high scoring seasons(post lane-widening), he averaged 34.7 ppg on 51 FG%/51.3 TS% and 33.5 ppg on 54 FG%/54.7 TS%.

Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on 57.4 FG%/60.3 TS% in 1972 and he said himself that he was better later which showed how deceiving stats are.

Another important point is how defensive strategies changed. Kareem mentioned in a '77 interview that he was pretty much played one on one during his first few years in Milwaukee, but that he was constantly doubled and tripled by the late 70's.

In most of the Wilt footage available, he seems to face far more single coverage than double teams, and I've heard many from that era mention that double teaming was rare.

By the time Kareem got stronger and improved his repertoire with the left hand sky hook and turnaround, he had no real weakness offensively, which makes him the greatest offensive center ever, imo.

His greater team success as a high scorer and Kareem's edge as far as go to moves and counters seals it for me.

From the footage I've seen, I don't see their footwork or touch as comparable, and Wilt's strength advantage isn't that big of a factor for me because he didn't seem to use it like a true power player. Part of that may have been that his lower body strength wasn't as great as people might think(just speculation, but it makes sense) and the fact that he looked awkward dribbling the ball while backing in. As well as Wilt's own claim that he didn't want to overpower people and wanted to prove he was skilled.[/QUOTE]

I came here to post something... but-
whenever ShaqAttack posts,
he'd already summed up whatever it was I had to say, plus much much more.

My contribution therefore shall be in the form of some REP.

[QUOTE=Psileas]I'll generally agree with kblaze's post the most. I believe Wilt would shoot better than 60% for his whole career had he decided to leave aside his finesse moves and get better team results, although Kareem would have the obvious advantage in FT shooting. Having said that:



If you define skillset as the main "go to" move and maybe dribbling in traffic, then maybe. But going beyond this, sorry, but I just don't see why there's not a debate on offensive skillset. You are among the ones who state they are "unimpressed" by Wilt's skillset after viewing him making fade-aways, jump shots, generally tough shots that not many big men can make (speaking of this, here's a new clip of college footage, apart from the one I posted some time ago [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB43A-ODuLc)[/url]. Well, I ask you, what makes you (I suppose) impressed by Kareem's moves apart from his main one? It seems like every time some people (including most Wilt naysayers) see Kareem make some good finesse move, they act as if they saw some super rare acrobatic Jordan move or a super quick Dream Shake. Hell, it sometimes even makes news that Kareem took and made jump shots, since most people are too used on seeing him only taking sky-hooks. I've seen the same people claim that Wilt was bothered when double-teammed, but I don't remember Kareem not being at least equally bothered when he didn't have the space to launch a sky-hook, either. I remember having seen a couple of plays when he had to take a few tougher than average jump-shots and missed badly (airballing). Some times he'd make a few good moves that people view as incredible, and other times he'd just fail.

I've never argued against Kareem being among the most skilled big men ever (hell, he's among my own favorite players ever, and I've maintained that he had the GOAT overall basketball career ever - I know that people including my fellow Wilt fan Jlauber may disagree with this), but I find it weird that people going against Wilt's skills to take shots speak that highly of Kareem's own ones, as if he's on Dirk's or prime Hakeem's level at this field. I would agree if you compared Wilt to Dirk (then again, I'll obviously take Wilt overall), but Wilt to Kareem, sorry, if I'm not supposed to be that impressed with prime Wilt, I don't see why I should be with Kareem.[/QUOTE]


First of all, that video footage of Chamberlain in the NCAA's is pure GOLD. He was easily the most skilled, fastest, athletic player on the floor. Your 9 block total might be right, but it sure seemed like more. And he challenged almost EVERY shot. Truly a ONE-MAN team. In the Finals that season he was QUAD-TEAMED, and, as usual, his pathetic teammates couldn't hit the garage door with a beach ball. Of course, we both know that Kansas didn't win any games when Wilt was out either.

And, as usual, he was hitting a variety of shots from up to 15 ft (as well as making two FT's in row....and looking very comfortable in doing so.) If only we had some of his truly monumental NBA games. Even one of his 271 40+ point games. And what I would give to see one of his 118 50+ point games, or one of his 32 60+ point games (especially the one in which he shot 29-35.)

As for the rest of your post. I have Kareem at #5 on my all-time list. And, I was a HUGE Alcindor fan when he was at UCLA (and he was easily the greatest college player of all-time BTW.) BUT, I just can't OVER-RATE the man, as so many other's do. Clearly though, is he is way ahead of Hakeem. A 38 year old Kareem dominated a 23 year old Hakeem. Can you imagine how bad it would have been had it been the other way around?

He won TWO scoring titles...in 20 seasons. He won ONE RPG title. And he won ONE FG% title...and HALF of his career was played in the weak 70's (AFTER Wilt "retired" in '73.) Wilt had THREE seasons in which he led the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG%...at the SAME TIME.

And, as I have said many times, if Kareem were truly a greater scorer than Chamberlain, how come he couldn't ELEVATE his scoring with average rosters in '75 and '76? And, as we know, McAdoo, with equal rosters, was way ahead of Kareem in scoring in both of those seasons.

That also applied to Hakeem, BTW. I have continually read the idiotic posts by Dickwad on just how poor Hakeem's rosters were. Ok, where were his 30-35 ppg seasons then? He simply couldn't do it. Nor could he get his team's out of the first round in over half of his post-season career. His best post-season scoring and rebounding series came in a four game FIRST ROUND blowout loss.

Secondly, Kareem faced Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and many of the same centers that a PRIME Wilt battled. Where were Kareem's HUGE games against those guys? Wilt had FAR greater higher scoring (and more efficient games) against those same guys. Hell, a Wilt in '69, when he was no longer interested in scoring, hung TWO 60+ point games on two centers that Kareem would face the very next year. Where were Kareem's 60+ point games?

Skillset? Those that argue that Kareem was more skilled are deluding themselves. Just looking at the more-and-more footage which is now showing up on YouTube, and Wilt had a FAR greater VARIETY of moves and shots.

And you can't argue the obvious, either. Wilt was much stronger, faster, and far more athletic (and in better shape...even at 11 years older...he was running Kareem into the ground in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six win in the '72 WCF's.)

So, no, Kareem was NOT in Wilt's class as either a scorer, or a shooter (despite his advantage at the line...and of course, Wilt MADE nearly 100 MORE FTs per season played.) Wilt was not only winning scoring titles, he was winning them by 19 ppg (and even 11 ppg.) He was not only winning FG% titles, he was winning them by margins as much as .162 (and .157), and outshooting leagues by as much as .271 (and .244.)

The real tragedy, of course, was that we never got to a PRIME Chamberlain go H2H against a PRIME Kareem. Judging by everything that is out there, Wilt would easily have outscored, and outshot Kareem (outshooting him would be a given BTW.) A PRIME Chamberlain could hang 40+ games on a PRIME Thurmond (and seasons of .562 shooting); 50+ games on Reed; 60+ games on a PRIME Bellamy. He could also pour in 66 on 29-35 shooting against Jim Fox, whom Kareem would face often, even at well past his peak. He even had a 31-32 game on 6-11 HOFer Lanier in his 71-72 season...in a league in which he hardly shot the ball. Where are ANY of those games by Kareem?

And CLUTCH? I have already provided MANY examples of Wilt's BIG-TIME games. He was arguably the greatest all-around game-seven player of all-time (24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and on .626 shooting.) Kareem? SEVERAL post-season meltdowns, including FOUR in which he failed to even shoot the league average. He had series in which he was reduced to as low as .405 shooting and .428 shooting against Thurmond. He had a series in which he shot .457, and only .414 over the last four games (and his sky-hook being smacked all over the gym by a 35 year old Wilt.) He had two series in which Moses Malone just pounded him. He had a series in the '84 Finals in which he shot .481 (in a league that shot .492) and in which Magic was criticized (and all Magic did was average 18 ppg, 8 rpg ...leading LA, 13 apg, and shooting .560 from the field.) He had a game seven where 6-9 Dave Cowens outplayed him in EVERY facet of the game. He had a critical game five of 7-25 shooting in the '84 Finals. He had a Finals of 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 shooting. He had a game seven of four points, 3 rebs, and on 2-7 shooting (along with 5 PF's.) I could go on...but, clearly, Kareem was not as clutch as so many make him out to be.

Not only that, but Kareem had loaded rosters in the late 70's, and in the weakest leagues in NBA history, that were blown out in the early rounds. He had TWO 60+ win teams go down in flames in that decade (one to a 47-35 team...in a series in which he shot .428.) He had another 59 win team lose to an underdog Celtic team in the Finals (and once again, in a game seven blowout loss on his HOME court, Kareem was easily outplayed by a Cowens who was saddled with five fouls going into the 4th quarter.) He had TWO teams that he couldn't even get into the playoffs. He had a team with the best record in the league get SWEPT.

So, Kareem over Wilt? I just don't see it.

[QUOTE=Psileas]I'll generally agree with kblaze's post the most. I believe Wilt would shoot better than 60% for his whole career had he decided to leave aside his finesse moves and get better team results, although Kareem would have the obvious advantage in FT shooting. Having said that:



If you define skillset as the main "go to" move and maybe dribbling in traffic, then maybe. But going beyond this, sorry, but I just don't see why there's not a debate on offensive skillset. You are among the ones who state they are "unimpressed" by Wilt's skillset after viewing him making fade-aways, jump shots, generally tough shots that not many big men can make (speaking of this, here's a new clip of college footage, apart from the one I posted some time ago [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB43A-ODuLc)[/url]. Well, I ask you, what makes you (I suppose) impressed by Kareem's moves apart from his main one? It seems like every time some people (including most Wilt naysayers) see Kareem make some good finesse move, they act as if they saw some super rare acrobatic Jordan move or a super quick Dream Shake. Hell, it sometimes even makes news that Kareem took and made jump shots, since most people are too used on seeing him only taking sky-hooks. I've seen the same people claim that Wilt was bothered when double-teammed, but I don't remember Kareem not being at least equally bothered when he didn't have the space to launch a sky-hook, either. I remember having seen a couple of plays when he had to take a few tougher than average jump-shots and missed badly (airballing). Some times he'd make a few good moves that people view as incredible, and other times he'd just fail.

I've never argued against Kareem being among the most skilled big men ever (hell, he's among my own favorite players ever, and I've maintained that he had the GOAT overall basketball career ever - I know that people including my fellow Wilt fan Jlauber may disagree with this), but I find it weird that people going against Wilt's skills to take shots speak that highly of Kareem's own ones, as if he's on Dirk's or prime Hakeem's level at this field. I would agree if you compared Wilt to Dirk (then again, I'll obviously take Wilt overall), but Wilt to Kareem, sorry, if I'm not supposed to be that impressed with prime Wilt, I don't see why I should be with Kareem.[/QUOTE]
That footage was the closest I seen to the film I saw when Wilt scored 50+ points. There are several films now that show Wilt outrun fast-breaks - it happens twice in that film (1:10 and 2:40). His speed and timing in a center you rarely ever see. That pass at 1:40 is sick!

There is an intentional shadow on Wilt. It's funny how there are only a couple of references to Wilt's bank shot and jump shot touch as it might be one of the most unstoppable shots ever. Far above any center's at that time.

[QUOTE=jlauber] Secondly, Kareem faced Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and many of the same centers that a PRIME Wilt battled. Where were Kareem's HUGE games against those guys? Wilt had FAR greater higher scoring (and more efficient games) against those same guys. Hell, a Wilt in '69, when he was no longer interested in scoring, hung TWO 60+ point games on two centers that Kareem would face the very next year. Where were Kareem's 60+ point games? [/quote]
Kareem made that statement about '77 being his best year scoring year (when he averaged 8 points less per game) because he knew those guys shut him down when when he was a much more prolific scorer. Kareem was very sensitive to how he was compared to Wilt. He was very sensitive about the scoring thing in general. I remember he went to league office to campaign for shorter seasons to protect his scoring record. [quote]

Skillset? Those that argue that Kareem was more skilled are deluding themselves. Just looking at the more-and-more footage which is now showing up on YouTube, and Wilt had a FAR greater VARIETY of moves and shots.

And you can't argue the obvious, either. Wilt was much stronger, faster, and far more athletic (and in better shape...even at 11 years older...he was running Kareem into the ground in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six win in the '72 WCF's.)

So, no, Kareem was NOT in Wilt's class as either a scorer, or a shooter (despite his advantage at the line...and of course, Wilt MADE nearly 100 MORE FTs per season played.) Wilt was not only winning scoring titles, he was winning them by 19 ppg (and even 11 ppg.) He was not only winning FG% titles, he was winning them by margins as much as .162 (and .157), and outshooting leagues by as much as .271 (and .244.)

And CLUTCH? I have already provided MANY examples of Wilt's BIG-TIME games. He was arguably the greatest all-around game-seven player of all-time (24.4 ppg, 26.3 rpg, and on .626 shooting.) Kareem? SEVERAL post-season meltdowns, including FOUR in which he failed to even shoot the league average. He had series in which he was reduced to as low as .405 shooting and .428 shooting against Thurmond. He had a series in which he shot .457, and only .414 over the last four games (and his sky-hook being smacked all over the gym by a 35 year old Wilt.) He had two series in which Moses Malone just pounded him. He had a series in the '84 Finals in which he shot .481 (in a league that shot .492) and in which Magic was criticized (and all Magic did was average 18 ppg, 8 rpg ...leading LA, 13 apg, and shooting .560 from the field.) He had a game seven where 6-9 Dave Cowens outplayed him in EVERY facet of the game. He had a critical game five of 7-25 shooting in the '84 Finals. He had a Finals of 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and .414 shooting. He had a game seven of four points, 3 rebs, and on 2-7 shooting (along with 5 PF's.) I could go on...but, clearly, Kareem was not as clutch as so many make him out to be.

Not only that, but Kareem had loaded rosters in the late 70's, and in the weakest leagues in NBA history, that were blown out in the early rounds. He had TWO 60+ win teams go down in flames in that decade (one to a 47-35 team...in a series in which he shot .428.) He had another 59 win team lose to an underdog Celtic team in the Finals (and once again, in a game seven blowout loss on his HOME court, Kareem was easily outplayed by a Cowens who was saddled with five fouls going into the 4th quarter.) He had TWO teams that he couldn't even get into the playoffs. He had a team with the best record in the league get SWEPT.

So, Kareem over Wilt? I just don't see it.[/QUOTE]

Whoa, JL is on a role once again. My points were supplemented here and I don't think it possible to do it better than you did JL. I will add on the most basic level Kareem never had the energy to be at Wilt's level. At another basic level was mindset. KAJ just wasn't a guy that would lead the league in scoring for four or five years. Lastly, he didn't have the natural know how either. At the basic core (Mindset, Physicality, Knowhow and energy) KAJ's go to move isn't going to trump all of that.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]Kareem made that statement about '77 being his best year scoring year (when he averaged 8 points less per game) because he knew those guys shut him down when when he was a much more prolific scorer. Kareem was very sensitive to how he was compared to Wilt. He was very sensitive about the scoring thing in general. I remember he went to league office to campaign for shorter seasons to protect his scoring record.

Whoa, JL is on a role once again. My points were supplemented here and I don't think it possible to do it better than you did JL. I will add on the most basic level Kareem never had the energy to be at Wilt's level. At another basic level was mindset. KAJ just wasn't a guy that would lead the league in scoring for four or five years. Lastly, he didn't have the natural know how either. At the basic core (Mindset, Physicality, Knowhow and energy) KAJ's go to move isn't going to trump all of that.[/QUOTE]

I really think Kareem underachieved in the 70's, despite some huge seasons. And we both agree that had Magic not arrived in '80, that Kareem's career would have been viewed as very disappointing.

Still, it seemed like he could get up for some great individual battles. He ALWAYS took a HUGE number of shots against Wilt. In fact, in their 28 H2H meetings, he had 18 games of 30+ FGAs, with a high of 39. BTW, he only shot above 50% in six of them.

And going on memory, I believe he hung 46 on Elvin Hayes in his very first NBA matchup with him. And I think he had 40+ against Walton in their first encounter. We know that he torched Hakeem for three 40+ games, and his 46 point game against him was within a week, I believe, of his 40-9 battering of Ewing.

As for Hakeem...I will say this, he and Russell almost always played at near 100%. I tend to point out his flaws, only because one poster here constantly places him among the gods, but there was no question that he played with heart. And, yes, it was too bad that he was saddled with relatively poor rosters for much of his career.

In fact, IMHO, if Kareem would have played at the intensity level that Hakeem brought, he clearly could have been much more dominant. Even Wilt, for all that he did at BOTH ends of the floor, probably didn't play as hard as Hakeem did in his career. Still, both Kareem, and Wilt, along with Shaq (who I also believe could have been more dominant) were so naturally blessed, that they were greater players, despite playing at lower levels.

And I wonder how many rings that Wilt and Hakeem would have won had they been fortunate enough to have had a prime Magic for ten years, too.

[QUOTE=jlauber]
In fact, IMHO, if Kareem would have played at the intensity level that Hakeem brought, he clearly could have been much more dominant. Even Wilt, for all that he did at BOTH ends of the floor, probably didn't play as hard as Hakeem did in his career. Still, both Kareem, and Wilt, along with Shaq (who I also believe could have been more dominant) were so naturally blessed, that they were greater players, despite playing at lower levels.

And I wonder how many rings that Wilt and Hakeem would have won had they been fortunate enough to have had a prime Magic for ten years, too.[/QUOTE]

Yeah Hakeem was hard work and highly developed skill. I think Kareem was one of the few players that could play disinterested and still be head and shoulders above the pack in the later 1970's - as he did a couple of years. If he had the work ethic or energy of Wilt or Hakeem he's GOAT without question. In that scenario we are talking about 9 scoring titles, 10 MVP's, 10 block titles, 7rebounding titles, 8 field goal percentage titles, and very close to Russel in Rings. Amazing when you think about it and it isn't an exaggeration at all. I don't know if that type of drop off, the comparison of potential to actual, exist in another top ten player.

The only knock on a motivated Kareem was that he isn't by nature a leader or people person, his impact on the game mysteriously wasn't gigantic until Magic knew how to feature him, and persistence in all around game. Which is small, perhaps, in comparison to everybody else, cept Jordan.

[QUOTE=jlauber]

As for Hakeem...I will say this, he and Russell almost always played at near 100%. I tend to point out his flaws, only because one poster here constantly places him among the gods, but there was no question that he played with heart. And, yes, it was too bad that he was saddled with relatively poor rosters for much of his career. [/QUOTE]

It's funny that you always spam about Hakeem's "flaws" when Wilt and Russell both had more flaws. And we all know you haven't seen Hakeem play, and that's a fact, you only check basketball-reference and then you think you've seen it all. Even your stupid comments about Olajuwon's play in the WCF vs the Lakers and his match-up vs Shaq tells the whole story about how little you really know.

[QUOTE=jlauber]
And I wonder how many rings that Wilt and Hakeem would have won had they been fortunate enough to have had a prime Magic for ten years, too.[/QUOTE]

Personally I wonder how many rings Hakeem would have won if he had been fortunate enough to have two 20 point scorers and two guys putting up more than 15 points per game while two of them being HOF:ers, like Wilt's teammates in '67 and the same about the Laker teams he was on...

Kareem in the playoffs

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: @ the bullshit Fatal9 used to spew on ISH

Anyways, you take Wilt. He can get you 50 if you need 50, he can get you 25 on a ridiculous 68% (with over 7 assists) if you've got other offensive players. Prime Wilt is a more dominant scorer than prime Jabbar, no refuting it really.

[url]http://youtu.be/WdmYTdjCXpU?t=2m2s[/url]