The battle for rank #10 all time... Hakeem vs Kobe

Hakeem is a bit of an odd case in terms of his career ranking. His peak from 93-95 isn't long, but his level of play was extraordinary in that short window. From 84 to 92, he didn't really separate himself from Ewing and David Robinson( and then of course Shaq entered the picture). In fact prior to 1993, I imagine many people would have placed him lower than Ewing/Robinson. David Robinson's own legacy was probably ruined by Hakeem destroying him in the 95 playoffs. I think he'd be even more highly regarded if not for that.

Unfortunately for Hakeem, people are always going to place an asterisk to those years because Jordan was off swinging at( and mostly missing) baseballs. But I believe those mid 90's Rockets teams, especially the 95 team, would have been a handful for the Bulls, especially coming off a 3peat.

For one season, I'd pick Hakeem at his 94/95 level over Kobe at his best level( 02-03, 05-06,07-08) but Kobe's definitely had the better overall career and when it's all said and done, their GOAT rankings should reflect that.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]
For one season, I'd pick Hakeem at his 94/95 level over Kobe at his best level( 02-03, 05-06,07-08) but Kobe's definitely had the better overall career and when it's all said and done, their GOAT rankings should reflect that.[/QUOTE]
Succinctly put.

It's kind of a pity that Kobe's best statistical season came with his worst team around him. Or... maybe it was because of that.

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Debate for 10th is between Kobe and Wilt.[/QUOTE]
Wait what? I actually have Wilt 8th and Kobe 9th.

sorry i'm not too familiar with the rules for this... does this mean whoever loses this is ranked outside of the top ten? i feel like both Kobe and Hakeem should be top 10. i'd have a hard time naming 9 guys better than BOTH of them.

[QUOTE=with malice]Succinctly put.

It's kind of a pity that Kobe's best statistical season came with his worst team around him. Or... maybe it was because of that.[/QUOTE]

I assume you're referring to the 06 season? Personally, I think Kobe's 2003 season across the board was better. Scoring average aside, he shot a career high in 3's, put up 5.9 assists( second highest average for career), and career high in steals and rebounds. He wasn't at the level of leadership he displayed in 08 and beyond, but I believe his athleticism/physical peak and skills were perfectly in sync in 2003.

[QUOTE=millwad] And I wouldn't rank Duncan or Wilt ahead of Hakeem either.[/QUOTE]


:facepalm

[QUOTE=with malice]Yet you'll be fine with LeBron winning 'em if they come alongside Wade and Bosh... right?[/QUOTE]

:wtf:

when...did...i...say...that..? :confusedshrug:

and what does that have to do with anything anyway?

[QUOTE=jlauber]
Hakeem has NO case over Wilt...and in fact, he was a BORDERLINE Top-10 player. Hell, the man was seldom regarded as even a Top-4 player in HIS era.

[/QUOTE]

I don't really think that matters much. Much of Hakeem's career was with 4 other top 10 players of all-time (Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq), 2 other top 15-20players of all-time (Barkley, Malone), and then 5 other players you can argue for top 20-30 players of all-time (Robinson, Ewing, Drexler, Pippen, Stockton). Even with that being the case I don't think there's any argument for him not being the 2nd best player overall of the time period of his career (85-02).

[QUOTE=guy]I don't really think that matters much. Much of Hakeem's career was with 4 other top 10 players of all-time (Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq), 2 other top 15-20players of all-time (Barkley, Malone), and then 5 other players you can argue for top 20-30 players of all-time (Robinson, Ewing, Drexler, Pippen, Stockton). Even with that being the case I don't think there's any argument for him not being the 2nd best player overall of the time period of his career (85-02).[/QUOTE]

And one can argue that his peak( during the Rockets 3peat) was every bit as dominant as guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird. If you took what Hakeem did between 93 and 95 and projected that level over 10 years, that's an easy top 5 player. The case against him being in the top 5, and in the 8-12 range, is because THAT level of play was only for a short time window.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]And one can argue that his peak( during the Rockets 3peat) was every bit as dominant as guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird. If you took what Hakeem did between 93 and 95 and projected that level over 10 years, that's an easy top 5 player. The case against him being in the top 5, and in the 8-12 range, is because THAT level of play was only for a short time window.[/QUOTE]

Right. By the way I completely forgot about Isiah as well who would be in that 20-30 range.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]And one can argue that his peak( during the Rockets 3peat) was every bit as dominant as guys like Jordan, Magic, Bird. If you took what Hakeem did between 93 and 95 and projected that level over 10 years, that's an easy top 5 player. The case against him being in the top 5, and in the 8-12 range, is because THAT level of play was only for a short time window.[/QUOTE]
I'm critical of Hakeem's career outside of 1993-95 as well.

But to be fair, he showed the ability to win early in his career when he dismantled the Lakers in 1986 and caught everybody's attention. That series transformed him into a true superstar and he played well against the Celtics as well. Not his fault for that loss at all. Sampson couldn't guard McHale and rattled under pressure @ the Garden. The Celtics also played pressure defense and forced turnovers with their traps. Bird was playing free safety.

They were also without John Lucas, their starting PG who was suspended for coke halfway into the season.

Then Ralph got injured, Lloyd and Wiggins were suspended and that team broke apart. That is the time where Hakeem's weaknesses were a bit more glaring because he wasn't a leader and he didn't trust his teammates (unwillingess to pass). He was also a hot tempered guy, even knocked his teammate out in practice because he was accused of snorting coke. So, at this point, you have a extremely talented superstar but not quite in the same mold as a Jordan, Bird or Magic because he doesn't have some of their qualities.

He still had a few great playoff performances like his series with the Mavs in 1988 and Seattle in 1987 but for the most part, 1987-1992 is a blemish on his career relative to the ELITES of the game.

So how do you interpret that stretch?

Is Olajuwon talented enough to win in the 1980s despite the leadership issues? I think that depends on who you ask.

I think so because he clearly showed the ability to do so in 1986. I feel his talent can get you through even if he's not a leader. If he didn't, then I would buy the claims.

I also wish Houston wasn't blatantly robbed in 1993. That's a robbery if I ever saw one.

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]I'm critical of Hakeem's career outside of 1993-95 as well.

But to be fair, he showed the ability to win early in his career when he dismantled the Lakers in 1986 and caught everybody's attention. That series transformed him into a true superstar and he played well against the Celtics as well. Not his fault for that loss at all. Sampson couldn't guard McHale and rattled under pressure @ the Garden. The Celtics also played pressure defense and forced turnovers with their traps. Bird was playing free safety.

They were also without John Lucas, their starting PG who was suspended for coke halfway into the season.

Then Ralph got injured, Lloyd and Wiggins were suspended and that team broke apart. That is the time where Hakeem's weaknesses were a bit more glaring because he wasn't a leader and he didn't trust his teammates (unwillingess to pass). He was also a hot tempered guy, even knocked his teammate out in practice because he was accused of snorting coke. So, at this point, you have a extremely talented superstar but not quite in the same mold as a Jordan, Bird or Magic because he doesn't have some of their qualities.

He still had a few great playoff performances like his series with the Mavs in 1988 and Seattle in 1987 but for the most part, 1987-1992 is a blemish on his career relative to the ELITES of the game.

So how do you interpret that stretch?

Is Olajuwon talented enough to win in the 1980s despite the leadership issues? I think that depends on who you ask.

I think so because he clearly showed the ability to do so in 1986. I feel his talent can get you through even if he's not a leader. If he didn't, then I would buy the claims.

I also wish Houston wasn't blatantly robbed in 1993. That's a robbery if I ever saw one.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but I give him a little bit of a pass because he didn't pick up a basketball until he was [I]15 years old.[/I] Lebron was already playing in the NBA at that age! :oldlol:

Seriously, though. Maybe his career wasn't A++ from start to finish but his prime sure was.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Yeah, but I give him a little bit of a pass because he didn't pick up a basketball until he was [I]15 years old.[/I] Lebron was already playing in the NBA at that age! :oldlol:

Seriously, though. Maybe his career wasn't A++ from start to finish but his prime sure was.[/QUOTE]
Good point about the age. It probably explains why his ability to read defenses wasn't top notch early on. Its something that improves with experience. Tom Heinsohn in that 1987 Seattle vs Houston series brought up his passing as a weakness on several occasions. I think it had more to do with an unwilligness to pass than inability though.

I agree about his prime. Hakeem in that three year stretch is flat-out amazing. Flawless. I wish we had more games of his from those years. I know you have some playoff games up but there's still a lot of games missing.

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Good point about the age. It probably explains why his ability to read defenses wasn't top notch early on. Its something that improves with experience. Tom Heinsohn in that 1987 Seattle vs Houston series brought up his passing as a weakness on several occasions. I think it had more to do with an unwilligness to pass than inability though.

I agree about his prime. Hakeem in that three year stretch is flat-out amazing. Flawless. I wish we had more games of his from those years. I know you have some playoff games up but there's still a lot of games missing.[/QUOTE]

Trust is sometimes harder than work. I know a little something about that. I'm trying to learn a 2nd language and I've been working at it since 2007. Hard. Twice a week classes, doing homework, reading novels, etc. Working my ass off. And I just realized this year what I'm doing wrong, even though people have been telling me over and over and over the same damn message. Listen. That's it. Sit down and listen every day until I understand. Watch the news, soap operas...anything. In other words, TRUST that my mind will catch on. That was harder for me to do than the work I put in for almost 5 years!

So I realized 2 things...

1) Those 5 years were a waste of time (because no one EVER has learned a language through classwork and books). And

2) Those 5 years were NOT a waste of time (it was needed to show me what I was doing wrong).

Now I watch the news in french every night with no problem and several other shows (soaps give me problems due to the slang but hey...).

ANYWAY, the point of it all is...I give guys like Olajuwon a little slack. Hakeem picked up a basketball and immediately started banging Moses Malone in those hot Houston summers trying to get better. He put in the work. Every year he got better. From novice at 15 to best player in the world. His desire and work ethic was never questioned. It was just hard for him to trust the other players when they had drug problems, were lazy, selfish or just flat out sucked. It's hard to trust the system when you have a new coach every other year. So a guy that talented with that much work ethic...it was harder for him to trust than it was for him to put in work. I almost don't blame him. Look at all the crackheads on that roster during his "dead years".

But he eventually did learn to trust and we saw what happened.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]Trust is sometimes harder than work. I know a little something about that. I'm trying to learn a 2nd language and I've been working at it since 2007. Hard. Twice a week classes, doing homework, reading novels, etc. Working my ass off. And I just realized this year what I'm doing wrong, even though people have been telling me over and over and over the same damn message. Listen. That's it. Sit down and listen every day until I understand. Watch the news, soap operas...anything. In other words, TRUST that my mind will catch on. That was harder for me to do than the work I put in for almost 5 years!

So I realized 2 things...

1) Those 5 years were a waste of time (because no one EVER has learned a language through classwork and books). And

2) Those 5 years were NOT a waste of time (it was needed to show me what I was doing wrong).

Now I watch the news in french every night with no problem and several other shows ([b]soaps give me problems due to the slang but hey...). [/b]

ANYWAY, the point of it all is...I give guys like Olajuwon a little slack. Hakeem picked up a basketball and immediately started banging Moses Malone in those hot Houston summers trying to get better. He put in the work. Every year he got better. From novice at 15 to best player in the world. His desire and work ethic was never questioned. It was just hard for him to trust the other players when they had drug problems, were lazy, selfish or just flat out sucked. It's hard to trust the system when you have a new coach every other year. So a guy that talented with that much work ethic...it was harder for him to trust than it was for him to put in work. I almost don't blame him. Look at all the crackheads on that roster during his "dead years".

But he eventually did learn to trust and we saw what happened.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: I liked your analogy but I disagree a bit.

I feel Hakeem is just as much to blame as his teammates and the management.

Their was a time early in 1991 where Hakeem went down with an eye injury and was out for a couple of months. Bill Cartwright at his best.

Everybody was expecting the Rockets to stink it up without Hakeem. But that's not what happened. They flourished and thrived speeding up the game and didn't have to worry about Hakeem demanding the ball anymore. All of a sudden they were one of the hottest teams in the league and Rocket fans even wanted Hakeem traded. You had guys like Kenny Smith and Otis Thorpe winning player of the week (IIRC). Hell, Smith even got a 3rd place MVP vote.

Hakeem came back and he adjusted and became more of a defensive stopper. In the end, it didn't work out (swept by LA in the first round) because you weren't going to win with those perimeter players as the focal point. Hakeem HAD to be the focal point to win and only Rudy T was able to convince him to blend in and focus throughout the season which is when he hit his otherwordly peak starting from the 1992-93 season. He also settled his contract issues that year.

So its not that talent was just the problem. The talent was there in 1991. Look at their roster in 1991, 1992 and then 1993 when they won 55. The core is still there besides Robert Horry. But their coach wasn't exactly the smartest tool in the shed and to a lesser extent Hakeem didn't quite play up to the max of his potential.

So I do feel Hakeem deserves some of the blame. I feel they could've done better in some of those early 90s years.

I don't want make it sound like Hakeem sucked in those years or anything. 1991 Hakeem would beast if today's league but when you stick him up against the best of the best, I don't feel he's quite there, more so in the mentality and team game than anything else. Not talent.

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]:oldlol: I liked your analogy but I disagree a bit.

I feel Hakeem is just as much to blame as his teammates and the management.

Their was a time early in 1991 where Hakeem went down with an eye injury and was out for a couple of months. Bill Cartwright at his best.

Everybody was expecting the Rockets to stink it up without Hakeem. But that's not what happened. They flourished and thrived speeding up the game and didn't have to worry about Hakeem demanding the ball anymore. All of a sudden they were one of the hottest teams in the league and Rocket fans even wanted Hakeem traded. You had guys like Kenny Smith and Otis Thorpe winning player of the week (IIRC). Hell, Smith even got a 3rd place MVP vote.

Hakeem came back and he adjusted and became more of a defensive stopper. In the end, it didn't work out (swept by LA in the first round) because you weren't going to win with those perimeter players as the focal point. Hakeem HAD to be the focal point to win and only Rudy T was able to convince him to blend in and focus throughout the season which is when he hit his otherwordly peak starting from the 1992-93 season. He also settled his contract issues that year.

So its not that talent was just the problem. The talent was there in 1991. Look at their roster in 1991, 1992 and then 1993 when they won 55. The core is still there besides Robert Horry. But their coach wasn't exactly the smartest tool in the shed and to a lesser extent Hakeem didn't quite play up to the max of his potential.

So I do feel Hakeem deserves some of the blame. I feel they could've done better in some of those early 90s years.

I don't want make it sound like Hakeem sucked in those years or anything. 1991 Hakeem would beast if today's league but when you stick him up against the best of the best, I don't feel he's quite there, more so in the mentality and team game than anything else. Not talent.[/QUOTE]

You know... you're right about that. I was mostly referring to the late 80's but you made a good point about 1991. That was Don Cheney, I believe. And they did well enough for him to earn Coach of the Year that year, iirc.

[QUOTE=Da_Realist]You know... you're right about that. I was mostly referring to the late 80's but you made a good point about 1991. That was Don Cheney, I believe. And they did well enough for him to earn Coach of the Year that year, iirc.[/QUOTE]
Chalk one more up for the infamous COY curse. :oldlol:

"Chaney was terrible." The words of every Houston fan I've ever come across.

EDIT: I don't blame Hakeem for the late 80s either since the drop off in talent was pretty big from that finals squad and he didn't have much to work with. I was mostly focusing on the early 90s where I do feel he deserves some flack.

Shouldn't Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, Jason Richardson, Michael Finley, Paul Pierce and Tracy McGrady be named as competition for Kobe?

Pierce played a lot of shooting guard in the early to mid 2000's. Monta Ellis??? LOL

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]
So how do you interpret that stretch?

Is Olajuwon talented enough to win in the 1980s despite the leadership issues? I think that depends on who you ask.

I think so because he clearly showed the ability to do so in 1986. I feel his talent can get you through even if he's not a leader. If he didn't, then I would buy the claims.

I also wish Houston wasn't blatantly robbed in 1993. That's a robbery if I ever saw one.[/QUOTE]

He definitely had some great pre 1993-5 moments, but apart from the 86 Finals run, I don't think many people had him over Robinson and Ewing. I think the Admiral was more or less considered the best center by 1992. Hakeem basically set himself apart from the bigmen pack in 1994, and then cemented his status as the best in the league, and his career legacy, in 95. I mean, think of the guys he went through, on the road, in the 95 playoffs: Barkley, Stockton and Malone,David Robinson, Shaq and Penny. All top 10 type talents at that point. Still one of the most impressive feats I've seen in Basketball.

Was he good enough to win in the 80's? Perhaps from a talent perspective, not from a leadership POV as you mentioned. It was really from the early-mid 90's when he put it all together at 32. He effectively peaked at a later point than you'd expect the average player to.

[QUOTE=Dragonyeuw]He definitely had some great pre 1993-5 moments, but apart from the 86 Finals run, I don't think many people had him over Robinson and Ewing. I think the Admiral was more or less considered the best center by 1992. Hakeem basically set himself apart from the bigmen pack in 1994, and then cemented his status as the best in the league, and his career legacy, in 95. I mean, think of the guys he went through, on the road, in the 95 playoffs: Barkley, Stockton and Malone,David Robinson, Shaq and Penny. All top 10 type talents at that point. Still one of the most impressive feats I've seen in Basketball.

Was he good enough to win in the 80's? Perhaps from a talent perspective, not from a leadership POV as you mentioned. It was really from the early-mid 90's when he put it all together at 32. He effectively peaked at a later point than you'd expect the average player to.[/QUOTE]
True. Robinson had unreal hype and he definitely was the best center till 1992 before Hakeem made that quantum leap in 1992-93.

There were people who thought he was the best player in the league and this is with Jordan and Magic in their primes. Of course, those people were wrong but that's what they were saying back then.

Robinson always lacked two things. First was lower body strength, people always mention his strength as a positive but that's all upper body mainly biceps. That helped him finish strong around the rim but he wasn't very strong on the lower body. Another thing is he had a higher center of gravity as opposed to Hakeem. Another thing that helps you get deeper position.

Second one just pure heart and will to win. That's why Robinson always made more of a second fiddle. Crumbling under pressure is something that was happening year in and year out for Robinson in the playoffs.

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Chalk one more up for the infamous COY curse. :oldlol:

"Chaney was terrible." The words of every Houston fan I've ever come across.

EDIT: I don't blame Hakeem for the late 80s either since the drop off in talent was pretty big from that finals squad and he didn't have much to work with. I was mostly focusing on the early 90s where I do feel he deserves some flack.[/QUOTE]

I always like your comments when it comes to Hakeem since you are one of few on this board who actually know what you're talking about.

Regarding the games during the back-to-backs I may be able to help you. My father worked abroad in the early to mid-90's (they don't show Rocket games in Sweden, no NBA games actually:oldlol:) and he became a huge Rocket fan during that time period and I have almost all the games on VHS from the back to backs (playoffs). When I have time I'll try to get them online when I find all of the tapes. I'll inform you then!

Regarding Hakeem and the Rockets in the early 90's before the '93 season.. Those 3 seasons really can't be blamed on Hakeem, sure, in the playoffs of the 90's playoffs he didn't play well but at the same time, no player would win it all with guys like Maxwell, Sleep "chucker" Floyd (hate him) and Otis Thorpe. No star power what so ever beside Hakeem.

In '91 even though earlier injury problems that season Hakeem still played really well in the playoffs but half on that team were scrubs. They played with 9 players in the playoffs and you don't win any playoff games when the name of your bench players are Dave Jamerson, David Wood, Larry Smith (worst FT-shooter ever, haha) and non-prime Sleepy.

In '92 they didn't even make the playoffs even though they had a winning record and yes, I agree that it was an off year for Hakeem but still he didn't have a good enough team to make it far.

And yeah, in '93 they got robbed big time..

Hakeem gets some crap for not being able to take his teams any further in the early 90's but at the same time, people give him that crap because he was able to take a bunch of role players all the way to the title in 94 and in 95 (minus Clyde) and therefor they expected him to do the same in the early 90's as well.

And some people think he just had 2 good years but just if they'd open their eyes they would see how epic some of his playoff performances in the 80's were. If he'd have some decent players at least around him at that time he'd get alot more recognition for his play back then and now.

Kobe>Hakeem.

:pimp: