Derrick rose = shooting guard

[QUOTE=Kyle_korver]I completely agree.. Anyone notice that tyreke evans is a sg now??.. That's where Derrick rose should be .. Why should he be the pg?..the best part to his game is scoring .. N no matter what .. No nba teams NEEDS a pg to take more than 30 fga n I seen Derrick do it alot like he was Kobe or something .. If Derrick rose Is a pure pg why shouldn't lebron be.. He's the guy running plays n making the tempo N was a pg his rookie year.. The nba position labels always been stupid to me.. Derrick is a sg .. Plan n simple[/QUOTE]


Derrick bring the ball up the court, initiates the offense, is the leader of the team, and Thibs says, "he's our point guard."

You have no argument other than "I dislike his style as a PG."

oolalaa = retard :D

[QUOTE=Kyle_korver]I completely agree.. Anyone notice that tyreke evans is a sg now??.. That's where Derrick rose should be .. Why should he be the pg?..the best part to his game is scoring .. N no matter what .. No nba teams NEEDS a pg to take more than 30 fga n I seen Derrick do it alot like he was Kobe or something .. If Derrick rose Is a pure pg why shouldn't lebron be.. He's the guy running plays n making the tempo N was a pg his rookie year.. [B][SIZE="3"]The nba position labels always been [SIZE="5"][COLOR="Red"]stupid to me[/COLOR][/SIZE].. Derrick is a sg .. Plan n simple and Im stupid[/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]


Derrick Rose is a Combo Guard and more Towards a Point Guard so what does that mean

DERRICK ROSE = POINT GUARD [SIZE="7"][COLOR="Lime"][COLOR="Blue"].[/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]Then what's the point of having positions.....? Just because every play should be able to do all these things doesn't mean a center shouldn't be significantly better at rebounding than a guard. Just because football roles are more defined doesn't mean there's not a role that each position should fill in basketball.[/QUOTE]


A lot of teams don't use these positions in the classical sense anymore, just go by numbers instead.

Say you play spread pick'nroll a lot with 3 guys along the 3pt line as shooters. 2 weak or 2 strong side. You'd want to change the positions in which the players set up switching between left and right corner, and left and right slot so the defensive players has to do the different rotations. A sg and a sf would have the exact same responsibilities, so why call them something that would seem they do different things?

On my team we have a "4" position and it's being the trailer in a two guard front. Even though I say guard, we can use all players in this position, usually we use a 2nd big here or a 2nd guard, what we can do from the position obv changes depending on who's in it, but it's still the 4 position.

If we don't use numbers we define our positions as guards, wings and bigs.

A good coach won't let his players be defined by position, but his positions defined by his players i guess..

[QUOTE=ZaaaaaH]Derrick Rose is a Combo Guard and more Towards a Point Guard so what does that mean

DERRICK ROSE = POINT GUARD [SIZE="7"][COLOR="Lime"][COLOR="Blue"].[/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Derrick rose averaged more fga than Kevin Durant!!?? What other pg does that!!!??.. The scoring leader in the nba!.. Get real

What he does need is a bigger shooting guard who can handle the rock and defend. Someone like Eric Snow. Rose is basically playing AI's role in Phili. He needs another guard alongside him who can take over some pg duties from time to time. It would be ideal for this guard to have a jumper as well. Easier said than done, but Rose can still be a scoring pg and win, as long as he gets the right partner in the backcourt.

[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]What he does need is a bigger shooting guard who can handle the rock and defend. Someone like Eric Snow. Rose is basically playing AI's role in Phili. He needs another guard alongside him who can take over some pg duties from time to time. It would be ideal for this guard to have a jumper as well. Easier said than done, but Rose can still be a scoring pg and win, as long as he gets the right partner in the backcourt.[/QUOTE]
Eric Snow was barely 6'3" though.....

A player who avereges ~20 fga is not PG for me personaly. But in todays NBA there arent many true star PGs left. Anybody that can score wants to score. For me guys like Rose, Westbrook,... are just guards, not PGs or SGs.

[QUOTE=Kyle_korver]Derrick rose averaged more fga than Kevin Durant!!?? What other pg does that!!!??.. The scoring leader in the nba!.. Get real[/QUOTE]


Does FGA show what position you play now? :lol

Why is it so hard for people to understand that Derrick Rose is a Point Guard that scores a lot? Are PG's not allowed to be scorers anymore? It isn't about just getting Assists. Derek Fisher has never gotten lots of Assists. Is he not a PG?

Who gives a shit if he takes 20 FGA per game? What's he supposed to do? Just pass the ball all day to Deng and Boozer hoping they average 20+ a game? He has to score a lot on his team. His best ability is scoring. He does that [B][I]in addition[/I][/B] to being a facilitator on his team.

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]Why is it so hard for people to understand that Derrick Rose is a Point Guard that scores a lot? Are PG's not allowed to be scorers anymore? It isn't about just getting Assists. Derek Fisher has never gotten lots of Assists. Is he not a PG?

Who gives a shit if he takes 20 FGA per game? What's he supposed to do? Just pass the ball all day to Deng and Boozer hoping they average 20+ a game? He has to score a lot on his team. His best ability is scoring. He does that [B][I]in addition[/I][/B] to being a facilitator on his team.[/QUOTE]

I think it's just a situation that if he is a pass first point guard (though yes, that's not his nature), it would make life easier for him and the team. Derek Fisher has also spent a lot of his career in triangle system man, it's hard to get assists in that system because of how much you have to move the ball around. Plus he has been surrounded by a lot of great talent during his time.

I think it's problem if anyone is taking that many shots and not converting a lot of those attempts, that's the problem. I think there should a balance between him and his teammates. That's how it should always be really. Just like when they play defense.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I think it's just a situation that if he is a pass first point guard (though yes, that's not his nature), it would make life easier for him and the team.[/QUOTE]

How so? Have Boozer or Deng ever been a #1 option who can carry the scoring load? It isn't about just passing. If he's a good scorer and the best at it on his team, why not do it? I mean, they won 62 games and got to the ECF and very well could have won (those games were pretty close outside of the blowout in Game 1). The way they play now seems to work well to me.

[QUOTE=LegeLegends66NBA7]Derek Fisher has also spent a lot of his career in triangle system man, it's hard to get assists in that system because of how much you have to move the ball around. Plus he has been surrounded by a lot of great talent during his time.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you brought that up. I wanted you to. That leads to another point. Players' roles are defined by personnel, system and jobs within that system, not necessarily their position on paper, like another poster was saying earlier. Chicago doesn't have the offensive firepower or have another player who can draw major defensive attention like Rose. If he doesn't pose the threat to drop 25-30 points in a game, Chicago is significantly worse offensively.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I think it's problem if anyone is taking that many shots and not converting a lot of those attempts, that's the problem. I think there should a balance between him and his teammates. That's how it should always be really. Just like when they play defense.[/QUOTE]

That's the case with any player though, not just a point guard. If you're your team's best scorer you are going to take more shots. Kobe takes more shots than Gasol or anyone else. LeBron took more shots than Mo Williams. Jordan took more shots than Pippen and Iverson took more shots than anyone else on his team. It's what they are supposed to do.

And who's to say his teammates would convert those shots if given more? Does giving Boozer 17 shots a game instead of 14 automatically mean he is going to score more and maintain or improve efficiency? No. Besides, it isn't like Rose is horribly inefficient anyway. He shot 45% last season, which is not really bad for a perimeter player and understandable due to his improved 3 ball and the injuries his team faced all season long.

Some of these guys never played ball.

In HS (not trying to brag) but sometimes the coach and my teammates would just tell me to shoot the ball when I wanted to.

After 20-24 points in a HS game it started to look and feel like I was hogging the ball. It feels uncomfortable as a point guard yes, but Rose is playing in the pros, damn your feelings we trying to get wins.

This is not a developmental league. We are not on camera trying to prove that fundamental basketball is the best way to go. We not trying to get everyone touches if it's not working we are going to get this dub. They feed their families off this (coaches too).

What kills me is random people think they know more than Paxson and Thibbs...two people that know a lot about being a PG.

[QUOTE=bingo123]A player who avereges ~20 fga is not PG for me personaly. But in todays NBA there arent many true star PGs left. Anybody that can score wants to score. For me guys like Rose, Westbrook,... are just guards, not PGs or SGs.[/QUOTE]


That's because you don't know shit about basketball to be honest.

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]How so? Have Boozer or Deng ever been a #1 option who can carry the scoring load? It isn't about just passing. If he's a good scorer and the best at it on his team, why not do it? [/QUOTE]

Well Boozer was in Utah. Deng just isn't good enough to create his own shot. I'm not saying it's all about passing, but Rose can share the load to take pressure of him. I think there's enough talent on the team (though need more of an offensive player @ the SG position) to get more scoring out of people. The Bulls are a young team, they will get better at this.

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]I mean, they won 62 games and got to the ECF and very well could have won (those games were pretty close outside of the blowout in Game 1). The way they play now seems to work well to me. [/QUOTE]


Yes, but I guarantee more teams (teams that are better defensively) will try and copy that Miami Heat strategy on Rose. I think there are ways they can get more out of their offense to try and counter attack, so that they won't get into that situation of Rose struggling in the 4th.

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]I'm glad you brought that up. I wanted you to. That leads to another point. Players' roles are defined by personnel, system and jobs within that system, not necessarily their position on paper, like another poster was saying earlier. Chicago doesn't have the offensive firepower or have another player who can draw major defensive attention like Rose. If he doesn't pose the threat to drop 25-30 points in a game, Chicago is significantly worse offensively.[/QUOTE]

You are spot on here. I still do think the Bulls can get some offensive talent elsewhere if there is still room in their salary cap. Who knows if they can groom a guy like Taj Gibson or have a healthy Boozer for the season. I think Chicago will get better offensively after a full year together. They were ranked 11th in offense, but yes Rose did have a big factor play in it, obviously.


[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]That's the case with any player though, not just a point guard. If you're your team's best scorer you are going to take more shots. Kobe takes more shots than Gasol or anyone else. LeBron took more shots than Mo Williams. Jordan took more shots than Pippen and Iverson took more shots than anyone else on his team. It's what they are supposed to do. [/QUOTE]

Though yes they won 62 games last season, you have to really factor in their defense too. Also like I said, that's not the best recipe to win, Kobe had more teammates converting better on his team, LeBron converts better from the field, Jordan does too, where as Iverson doesn't convert well at all, he had better defense complimentary parts to help him in that area. They are supposed to do all that, but it's not always the recipe of winning unless you have more weapons on your team on both sides of the floor.

[QUOTE=Mr. I'm So Rad]And who's to say his teammates would convert those shots if given more? Does giving Boozer 17 shots a game instead of 14 automatically mean he is going to score more and maintain or improve efficiency? No. Besides, it isn't like Rose is horribly inefficient anyway. He shot 45% last season, which is not really bad for a perimeter player and understandable due to his improved 3 ball and the injuries his team faced all season long.[/QUOTE]

Well Boozer hit over 51% of his 14 shots, Deng hit 46% of his 14 shots, Noah 52.5% of 8 shots (I know he isn't a great shooter), etc...

Boozer would have a stronger chance of making more shots because he's a post player, but yeah you have a point, it doesn't necessarily mean he will make it more regularly. Rose is around the average, but he's also the MVP right ? He's not supposed to be just some "perimeter player".

That's just me though, when you are the MVP and the main weapon, I would expect a little more better efficiency that that.

People act like Rose wasn't playing any defense I remember a vast improvement in defense and a few:eek: blocks on high flying PF's & all-star PG's...

One series doesn't predicate a career. Rose has about the same career shooting percentage as Dirk Nowitzki. He damn near shot 50% as a rookie.

It's logical that with him becoming more comfortable with the three, gaining more experience, and some help on offense so he doesn't have to shoot as much, that his shooting percentage will only get better.

Dude took more shots than he ever took, played more games than he every played in a year (with the USA team and the season and playoffs), and handled more responsibility than many 23 year-olds ever have in life.

He was understandable gassed and facing Lebron James and a Heat team that basically slept walked and took games off all season to be fresh for the Finals that they knew they'd win.

The Bulls overachieved and pushed their way into the playoffs trying to glean as many wins as possible. Which is cool they wanted Rose to get MVP, they wanted to win the EC and make a statement...in the back of everyone's head they knew we weren't the best team in the NBA, but why not see how far we can go right?

When we have another 2 pieces in place I feel like we can take any team.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]Eric Snow was barely 6'3" though.....[/QUOTE]

He was able to defend opposing shooting guards though. My point still remains Rose needs someone next to him like Snow. A player who made smart decisions, handled the ball, defended opposing shooting guards. A guy who can be a pg if he needs to. Bulls do not have anyone like that at all currently.

Rose sure has become underrated, for somebody who's young and probably on an upward curve. 7.7 assist a game and 20 games of 10+ assists in the RS... how many shooting guards in the league did that?

[QUOTE=ihatetimthomas]He was able to defend opposing shooting guards though. My point still remains Rose needs someone next to him like Snow. A player who made smart decisions, handled the ball, defended opposing shooting guards. A guy who can be a pg if he needs to. Bulls do not have anyone like that at all currently.[/QUOTE]
I agree but I'd rather have a guy a bit taller that could hit jumpshots.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]That's because you don't know shit about basketball to be honest.[/QUOTE]

Two words in my post: [B]true[/B] star [B]PGs[/B]. I am not saying that Rose plays the wrong way (obviously he and his team benefits from his scoring) but he is not true PG like lets say Nash and Kidd, thats all.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]Derrick Rose needs to move to shooting guard as soon as this pathetic lockout is over!

I think this for a couple of reasons...

1. It's incredibly hard to win a championship with a slashing point guard who is also your main scorer. In fact, it's so hard that no team in history has done it (A.I came closest in 01').

2. His skills are more suited to the 2 guard position. He is a good playmaker but not a great one and is always looking to attack the rim.

Although he would be a slightly undersized shooting guard, he has more than enough athletic ability to make up for it and he wouldn't be burdened with the task of running an offense.

Does anyone else agree with me?[/QUOTE]

Why slashing? He's a penetrate and kick guy, like Marbury or KJ. If he can master the pick and roll, there's no reason why his style of play would prevent him from being a great PG, and running the offense is not a burden to him.

[QUOTE=bingo123]Two words in my post: [B]true[/B] star [B]PGs[/B]. I am not saying that Rose plays the wrong way (obviously he and his team benefits from his scoring) but he is not true PG like lets say Nash and Kidd, thats all.[/QUOTE]


He plays Point Guard (remember, the COACH says who the PG of the team is not the fans), averages 8 assists, and just won an MVP.

That is a true star PG.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]He plays Point Guard (remember, the COACH says who the PG of the team is not the fans), averages 8 assists, and just won an MVP.

That is a true star PG.[/QUOTE]

But at the end of the day fans are gonna percive what position a player is based on what they belive that position is supposed to be played liked.

Just like how Shaqattack considers Duncan a center
Just like how some people claim Curry is just an undersized sg
A lot of people still put put Amare as a pf even though now he's playing the C

Ext.

I mean a lot of people list Oscar as an sg
And a lot of people question whether Magic was a pg considering a lot of times he wasn't even guarding his postion ext.

Such is life. At the end of the day if you rank Rose as a shooting guard he's still top 3. If you rank him as a pg he's top 1-3 depending on what you value.

to those saying that boozer and deng need to take more shots, and rose needs to take fewer, rose as it stands, being the main point of attention for the opposing defense has a high TS% than both of them. and in almost every circumstance, when you increase the number of possessions a player takes, his efficeincy goes down. (its pretty logical, say a player takes 10 shots, they are presumably the ten best opportunities to shot he gets, so if he takes a few more shots, they will be worse shots than he was originally taking, so his efficeincy goes down.)

so if rose takes fewer shots, the defense pays less attention to him and more to deng and boozer, so if you have deng and boozer take a few more shots per game, those shots would be even worse than the shots that they are currently taking, and the bulls offense actually gets worse. ideally korver, who has a higher TS% than all three players, would force things a little bit more, and take a few more shots.

this is all very stat heavy analysis of course, but it is backed up by watching the bulls play on offense.

(its worth mentioning that deng was more efficeint in the playoffs than rose, but the playoffs are a smaller sample size of games)

PG is an easy position to define in comparison to the PF/C debate.

-Brings the ball up.
-Initiates the offense.
-Calls the plays/floor general.

Rose does all of those.

Really, there is no debate on this in my mind. People still hold onto these antiquated ideas of what a PG should be...

Mind you, Rose averaged 8 assists on an offensively anemic team which is pretty good.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]But at the end of the day fans are gonna percive what position a player is based on what they belive that position is supposed to be played liked.

Just like how Shaqattack considers Duncan a center
Just like how some people claim Curry is just an undersized sg
A lot of people still put put Amare as a pf even though now he's playing the C

Ext.

I mean a lot of people list Oscar as an sg
And a lot of people question whether Magic was a pg considering a lot of times he wasn't even guarding his postion ext.

Such is life. At the end of the day if you rank Rose as a shooting guard he's still top 3. If you rank him as a pg he's top 1-3 depending on what you value.[/QUOTE]

really, positions arent as descriptive as roles. i think if you describe a player by his role, and what kind of player he is capable of defending, you would get a much better idea of what kind of player they are.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]PG is an easy position to define in comparison to the PF/C debate.

-Brings the ball up.
-Initiates the offense.
-Calls the plays/floor general.

[/QUOTE]


so was mo williams a pg when bron was doing all of those things in cleveland?

positions are close to obselete, roles are far more important. thats why wade and bron dont play well together. they play different positions, but play very similar roles.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]PG is an easy position to define in comparison to the PF/C debate.

-Brings the ball up.
-Initiates the offense.
-Calls the plays/floor general.

Rose does all of those.

Really, there is no debate on this in my mind. People still hold onto these antiquated ideas of what a PG should be...

Mind you, Rose averaged 8 assists on an offensively anemic team which is pretty good.[/QUOTE]

There's no debate in your mind because you feel the role of a pg is the three things you listed.

Other people might think differnt of what exactly defines a pg. That's my point. Just like people think differntly of what defines a Pf/C/SG/SF ext

Rose has point guard skills and he can definitely go the Wade route and be an undersized sg. He has the athleticism to make up for his lack of height. He needs someone to be more of a consistent offensive threat along with being a decent facilitator. Also, Thibs need a better offensive assistant coach. He's not great at making offensive plays from what I remember.
[QUOTE=chips93]so was mo williams a pg when bron was doing all of those things in cleveland?

positions are close to obselete, roles are far more important. thats why wade and bron dont play well together. they play different positions, but play very similar roles.[/QUOTE]
They also have similar styles of play, which actually is the reason why they don't play as well together. The 2 and the 3 have been meshed together as the main scorers.

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]There's no debate in your mind because you feel the role of a pg is the three things you listed.

Other people might think differnt of what exactly defines a pg. That's my point. Just like people think differntly of what defines a Pf/C/SG/SF ext[/QUOTE]
I forgot to include who you guard and of course what the coach designates the player as.

People's only argument against Rose is that he shoots too much to be a PG and I think that's absurd.

[QUOTE=Go Getter]I forgot to include who you guard and of course what the coach designates the player as.

People's only argument against Rose is that he shoots too much to be a PG and I think that's absurd.[/QUOTE]

As I said if a person thinks that a there's a certain limit on the numbers of fg attempts you should take to be considered a pg that's that's persons perspectice I don't really care as long as they stay consistent.

I personally consider him a pg.

But I never understood why people harp so much about positions. I remember having a big argument with Shaqattack as to why I don't think whether Duncan's a pf or c makes any differnce because whether you switch their positions it doesn't make them any less of a player; it's not like if I label Luke Walton, to a differnt position based on what I think a small forward is it gonna make him any less sucky I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

Hell I remember early in D-Will's career I used to just call him a combo-guard and leave it at that since he played off the ball a lot because of Sloan

[QUOTE=Yung D-Will]As I said if a person thinks that a there's a certain limit on the numbers of fg attempts you should take to be considered a pg that's that's persons perspectice I don't really care as long as they stay consistent.

I personally consider him a pg.

But I never understood why people harp so much about positions. I remember having a big argument with Shaqattack as to why I don't think whether Duncan's a pf or c makes any differnce because whether you switch their positions it doesn't make them any less of a player; it's not like if I label Luke Walton, to a differnt position based on what I think a small forward is it gonna make him any less sucky I just don't think it's that big of a deal.

Hell I remember early in D-Will's career I used to just call him a combo-guard and leave it at that since he played off the ball a lot because of Sloan[/QUOTE]

That was major weird. Sloan said he was going to move him to shooting guard. I wasn't getting it at all. Obviously it could be something we didn't see and he hasn't made his mark yet in New Jersey either. But from the outside, he looks like he could be one of the best of his time if he just stays healthy.

The point is a leadership position and the primary decision maker on the team. You move a guy off of the point position he's really a fish out of water. Of all of the positions its something that a star player would have a problem with. AI was indeed a penetrating point more so than a distributing point. He like, Chauncey or Tony Parker would feel very awkward moving off of the ball. Coaches know it, teammates know it. Fans that play know it. The point is the captain of the ship... the other roles won't work. Fans, yeah you right, they will see it their way.

[QUOTE=pauk]i agree i have said this since day 1.....

there is no such thing as a scoring point guard........... there is only a point guard who can score well but always keeps his pointguard duties..... thats more like steve nash or cp3 or deron williams or mark price and so on....

a 25-30 ppg scorer from pointguard position who is not facilitating enough (derrick rose) has always been moved to SG despite the size.... monta ellis, allen iverson and soon... derrick rose... but rose is 6'3".. 1 inch less than Wade... he should be fine....

a pointguards duty is ALWAYS and i mean ALWAYS to set his teammates up and make the correct decisions..... then you can score however much you like..... thats not how Derrick Rose plays...... he brings the ball up and often immediately starts driving or chucking a shot often ignoring the open man or setting up a play for a teammate and so on.......... that is NOT a pointguard.......... that is Monta Ellis, Allen Iverson......... that is Francis/Marbury....... that is DERRICK ROSE.... that is a pure undersized Shooting-Guard...[/QUOTE]

It's amazing how Pauk actually says things that aren't completely idiotic every once in awhile.

[QUOTE=Pointguard]That was major weird. Sloan said he was going to move him to shooting guard. I wasn't getting it at all. Obviously it could be something we didn't see and he hasn't made his mark yet in New Jersey either. But from the outside, he looks like he could be one of the best of his time if he just stays healthy.

The point is a leadership position and the primary decision maker on the team. You move a guy off of the point position he's really a fish out of water. Of all of the positions its something that a star player would have a problem with. AI was indeed a penetrating point more so than a distributing point. He like, Chauncey or Tony Parker would feel very awkward moving off of the ball. Coaches know it, teammates know it. Fans that play know it. The point is the captain of the ship... the other roles won't work. Fans, yeah you right, they will see it their way.[/QUOTE]
AI was really good off the ball tho

He can absolutely carry this team as a scoring point guard. Billups, Parker, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, they have all had tremendous success as point guards who were there crunch time scorers and could easily get 20+ a year if they tried to.

I do though agree that the percentage of our offense that he is currently carrying is not a healthy one and will not churn out a championship in the next few years given the current amount of elite and growing teams in the East. This is already known tho... it's already pretty given that the Bulls need another scorer who can create his own shot.