How far short of GOAT consideration is Shaq?

[QUOTE=JMT]Nope, but it sure doesn't qualify you to speak as an expert on players that you never saw play.

Everybody's entitled to opinions. But when yours consists pretty much solely of one stat that you've hand selected...and is delivered complete with calling those who disagree "retard" and "idiot"...it pretty much diminishes the value of anything you've got to say.

Hell, at 22 you want to claim "following" the NBA as a four year old? You didn't even see[I] Shaq's [/I]whole career.[/QUOTE]

I've been following Shaq since 94, he has been my favorite player since then till now.

And I have made plenty of arguments outside of PER, your just biased and dont want to understand or accept them because you are already dead set in your hateful opinions of him.

Anyway I am done in this thread, I expressed my opinions have fun.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]I've been following Shaq since 94, [B]he has been my favorite player since then till now[/B].

.[/QUOTE]

:roll: And since he's not my favorite, I'm biased?

Are you sure you're 22?

I see this was edited in afterwards:

[QUOTE=32Dayz]Why would I lie about something that can easily be looked up in 5 seconds? :facepalm[/QUOTE]

Conversely, why would you make a mistake about something that can easily be looked up in 5 seconds?

:confusedshrug:

In my experience, enthusiastic fans of certain players don't let facts get in the way, and frequently make assertions without verifying their validity. Since it is so easily looked up, there's really no excuse for it.

[QUOTE=32Dayz][QUOTE=Pointguard]You a funny dude. You know full well that isn't Jlauder.[/QUOTE]

Well whatever I got them mixed up.

Forgive me.

They are both the main Wilt fans of this forum.[/QUOTE]

Yet another "mistake." I am not jlauber, as Pointguard already said, and I am not one of "the main Wilt fans of this forum." I am neither a "Wilt fan," nor a "Wilt hater/detractor." I find this dichotomy irritating, that one must either be a stan or a hater. One can't impartially discuss a player since impartial/unbiased/agendaless discussion occurs so infrequently here.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I am not one of "the main Wilt fans of this forum." I am neither a "Wilt fan"[/QUOTE]

I know who "you" are.

Dont feed me that obvious and "MASSIVE' lie.

:facepalm

You are a huge Wilt fan and have been for a very long time.

I am familiar with your posts on RealGM and other forums.

There is nothing wrong with that either so I dont see why you'd try to cover it up.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]I know who "you" are.

Dont feed me that obvious and "MASSIVE' lie.

:facepalm

[B]You are a huge Wilt fan and have been for a very long time.[/B]

I am familiar with your posts on RealGM and other forums.

There is nothing wrong with that either so I dont see why you'd try to cover it up.[/QUOTE]

:confusedshrug:

I find it ironic, considering the fact that I have been lumped into the category of "Wilt haters" on this very board, and now I'm "a huge Wilt fan."

:oldlol:

Funny.

Wilt Chamberlain is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. As a long-time basketball fan and student of basketball history, I respect that. I have posted when certain things have been said because I dislike falsehoods being stated, but for the most part, there are people like jlauber and PHILA to address most things Wilt-related. I am neutral. I have spoken for Wilt on certain occasions, and I've also spoken against him on certain occasions. I have no particular agenda either way, I just call it as I see it. I am now certain though, that you aren't in fact "familiar with my posts on RealGM and other forums."

3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.[/QUOTE]

Eh, for me it's more of an attitudinal adjustment than simply more accolades or more stats. If his attitude about certain things had been different, then everything else would have come along with it. If his attitude had been different, then he could have gotten more MVPs and more titles "as the #1 option." For me at least, he would have needed to change the underlying problem.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Eh, for me it's more of an attitudinal adjustment than simply more accolades or more stats. If his attitude about certain things had been different, then everything else would have come along with it. If his attitude had been different, then he could have gotten more MVPs and more titles "as the #1 option." For me at least, he would have needed to change the underlying problem.[/QUOTE]
Yea.. He's actually extremely lucky to have won as much as he didin the first place. 2000 and 2002 were pretty lucky. 2006 was very lucky. Although I guess you could say he could have won it in 03 and 04.

One ring and 2 points on his scoring Average.



He would have the extra ring if Kobe didnt ballhog in 2004.

He would easily have the 2 points(25.69 ppg) if he practiced more from the FT line.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]:confusedshrug:

I find it ironic, considering the fact that I have been lumped into the category of "Wilt haters" on this very board, and now I'm "a huge Wilt fan."

:oldlol:

Funny.

Wilt Chamberlain is one of the greatest players ever to play the game. As a long-time basketball fan and student of basketball history, I respect that. I have posted when certain things have been said because I dislike falsehoods being stated, but for the most part, there are people like jlauber and PHILA to address most things Wilt-related. I am neutral. I have spoken for Wilt on certain occasions, and I've also spoken against him on certain occasions. I have no particular agenda either way, I just call it as I see it. I am now certain though, that you aren't in fact "familiar with my posts on RealGM and other forums."[/QUOTE]

Remember, Shaq's been his favorite player since he was 4 years old, cemented when he went to see Kazaam! at age 6...but everybody else is biased.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]3 more MVP's and another title as the #1 and he'd be in the conversation. Not the GOAT, but in the convo.[/QUOTE]

What does MVP's have to do with anything for Shaq? Anyone who watched him play knows he deserves a few more MVP awards than what he currently has, which is one.

So him not having extra MVP awards doesn't impact his legacy at all. You can't let an award voted on by media determine your ability to be considered in the discussion for GOAT when they pretty clearly got it wrong with regards to Shaq.

Shaq as a playoff performer based on Production/Intangibles and Performances is easily the 2nd greatest player of all time after Jordan.

lol at people thinking he needs more titles to be the GOAT.

if not for the failure of his teammates in 95 and the sabotage of Kobe in 04 he'd have 6 Rings and 5FMVP's.

His resume speaks for itself at this point.

Outside of Jordan no one can touch him as a playoff performer and his Prime and best 5 year stretch and 7 year stretch and 10 and 13 year stretch in the playoffs are superior to everyone besides Jordan.

From 94-06 There has only been maybe 1-2 playoff series where they were eliminated and he wasn't the best player in the series. I am talking 97 and 99.

Shaq and Jordan are the two greatest players ever.

[QUOTE]#1.
Jordan : Post Season - PER
Peak : 32
Top 5 : 30.16
Top 7 : 29.61
Top 10 : 28.89
Top 13 : 28.6

------------------------------------------------------------

#2.
Shaq : Post Season - PER
Peak : 31
Top 5 : 30
Top 7 : 29.56
Top 10 : 28.52
Top 13 : 26.55
14th to 16th Season (Final 3 Seasons) - 18.33[/QUOTE]

The lowest Shaq should ever be ranked without looking like a fool is #5.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]
Shaq and Jordan are the two greatest players ever.
[/QUOTE]

This seals it

[QUOTE=Doctor Rivers]This seals it[/QUOTE]

Thanks Doc, you always know best. :cheers:

This was on the way to be a good thread, but we let 32 dayz ruin it. Please ignore him, he is obviously trying to troll/argue or is an idiot. Either way he should be ignored.

To further my way point of view, imagine Shaq with Kobe's work ethic and his own personality. Or imagine Shaq with MJ or Magic or Bird or Russell's approach...WOW!

[QUOTE=Carbine]What does MVP's have to do with anything for Shaq? Anyone who watched him play knows he deserves a few more MVP awards than what he currently has, which is one.

So him not having extra MVP awards doesn't impact his legacy at all. You can't let an award voted on by media determine your ability to be considered in the discussion for GOAT when they pretty clearly got it wrong with regards to Shaq.[/QUOTE]

Err, no. You can say that about many great players. Unfortunately, to be ranked highly on the GOAT list, you need several MVP's.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]:rant [/QUOTE]

No lets ignore people like you who cant property appreciate the greatness of Shaqs Career because you think he should have been better then he was.

:facepalm

If you cant handle facts that isnt my problem.

Shaq is a GOAT candidate with his current career and at the very worst a top 5 goat player.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Not far. His peak puts him in the conversation because at his best he is arguably as good as any player has ever been.

However he is not someone I consider for the top spot for the following reasons...

1) [B]Wasted prime years[/B]. Being out of shape or not in harmony with his coaches/teammates cost him, that's not acceptable if a player of equal credentials/ability has set a higher standard as Jordan and Russell have for me. Both players took their teams as far as they could possibly go in every healthy full season they played.

2) [B]Inconsistent dominance bourne out of worth ethic[/B]. Shaq could have had a five or so year run as the insanely dominant player he was for 2000 and most of 2001 but first immaturity and second lack of discipline squelched that chance. Again Russell and Jordan never let those flaws arise and deter them.

3) [B]Hung on to long.[/B] This is a personal thing, but seeing 1989 Kareem or 1990whatever Moses or Toronto Raptor Hakeem is unsettling. Shaq post-Phoenix was a disaster. On occasion when a team dedicated their offense to his strengths he was efficient and effective, but otherwise he was a liability. That sucked. Russell and Jordan went out on top, even Wizard MJ was still a top 20-30 player in the league.

I love Shaq, I'll always take his side over Kobe and he may very well be the last GREAT center for a long, if not all-time. A player of his make-up would dominate in any era, physically he held a greater advantage over his peers than anyone in my opinion and only Wilt rivals him in that regard. I have often been tempted to rank him as high as fourth all-time, I struggle with him, Wilt and Kareem. He deserves to get the nod based on consistency during his peak, but those other guys were so much better for the rest of their primes and more importantly hold a defensive edge over Shaq that is more significant than any other distinction relevant to the conversation. At worst, Shaq is the ninth greatest player ever.[/QUOTE]

Agree with pretty much everything here. I rank Shaq higher than most, but don't think he's a legit candidate for best ever. I consider there to be 3 players who I can see why people who know about them can rank them number 1 without bias. And this is of course accounting for different criterias, but the 3 players who I see with a case are Jordan, Kareem and Russell. Unless you're going purely by peak, then I don't see Shaq's case.

[QUOTE=Odinn]If 1985-86 season would be Kareem's last season;

His career numbers;
35108 points (all-time scoring leader until 2002-12-18) / 16105 rebounds / 5248 asissts / 1025 steals / 2915 blocks / 2087 turnovers
26.4 ppg / 12.1 rpg / 4.0 apg / 1.0 spg / 2.9 bpg / 3.0 tpg / 0.562 fg% / 0.720 ft%

His playoff numbers;
4912 points / 2168 rebounds / 676 asissts / 161 steals / 393 blocks / 339 turnovers
27.3 ppg / 12.0 rpg / 3.8 apg / 1.2 spg / 2.8 bpg / 3.0 tpg / 0.541 fg% / 0.732 ft%

His accomplishments;
6x MVP (6.203 total MVP share, only 2 times left out top5)
2x FMVP
4x NBA Champion (in 1971 and 1980, clear-cut best player on a championship team and "arguably" best player in 1982 and 1985)
16x All-Star
10x All-NBA First Team
5x All-NBA Second Team
5x All-NBA Defensive First Team
6x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
NBA Rookie of The Year
3x NCAA Champion
3x NCAA MOP
Naismith College Player of the Year

In conclusion; his last 3 years only lowered his career averages. He still would have a legitimate case for GOAT if he was retired after 1985-86 season.[/QUOTE]

In 1985-86 season, Kareem was at Shaq's retirement age.

As for accomplishments; Kareem would have 4 rings, 2 as the man(clear cut) and 2 as the 1a or 1b and he would still have a case for goat. Shaq has 4 rings, 3 as the man. It's quite clos imo. But Shaq should have won more MVPs to be called GOAT. Kareem won 6 MVPs, Jordan and Russell 5, Wilt 4, Magic and Bird 3. Also he would have better numbers. At least; he had a very good chance to pass 30K points.

As for peaks; Shaq has a case for goat peak but Kareem and Jordan had greater peak than Shaq imo.

As for intangibles; Lack of intangibles... That was the Shaq's biggest problem.

[QUOTE=Odinn]As for peaks; Shaq has a case for goat peak but Kareem and Jordan had greater peak than Shaq imo.[/QUOTE]


I don't see Kareem's peak as being as good as Shaq's. During Kareem's peak individual seasons he was on average teams and never even made it to the finals. Kareem never had the devastating impact Shaq did and he certainly never inspired his teammates the way Shaq did when he was at his best. During Shaq's peak no one was on his level. There was always someone arguably as good or better than Kareem.

I think it's so hard to call Shaq the GOAT or compare him to others. He was physically gifted with a 7 foot 300something pound body. He was LITERALLY unstoppable from a physical stand point, then he was also incredibly talented basketball/skill wise. I don't think you can compare him to, lets say Jordan, because thousands of basketball players have Michael Jordans athleticism, but very few have what makes Michael Jordan the best.. the work ethic, the understanding of the game, the clutch factor, the cockiness, the I will do anything to beat you mentality.

I'm not saying Shaq shouldnt be considered, but I think it is SO hard to compare him to others just based on the pure physical ability he was born with that made him so unstoppable.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I don't see Kareem's peak as being as good as Shaq's. During Kareem's peak individual seasons he was on average teams and never even made it to the finals. Kareem never had the devastating impact Shaq did and he certainly never inspired his teammates the way Shaq did when he was at his best. During Shaq's peak no one was on his level. There was always someone arguably as good or better than Kareem.[/QUOTE]

I actually agree with much of this. I am one of the few here who believes that Kareem's career has been over-rated on the forum. On the other hand, a PEAK Shaq was just overwhelming.

I also believe that a motivated Shaq could have been even more dominant, and for a longer period of time. There was really no excuse for him to have NEVER led the NBA in rebounding, especially when he pounded Mutombo in the Finals one year. To be an athletic 7-1, and 325+ lbs, he should have won SEVERAL rebounding titles. He was also a proven shot-blocker in the post-season (again, he had more blocks than Mutombo in that series), so he should have won at least a couple of shot-blocking titles.

Still, as big as he was, and with the weight he was carrying, he was a marvel. In his "three-peat", he had regular seasons of 40.0 mpg, 39.5 mpg, and a slight dropoff to 36.1 mpg. But, then in the post-season, he averaged 43.5 mpg, 42.3 mpg, and 40.8 mpg.

And the man played for 19 seasons. Granted, he was a shell in his 3-4 years, but for a huge chunk of his career, he was a top-5 player (and IMHO, he was the best player in the game from '98 thru '05.)

I personally have Shaq at #6 on my list (for whatever that is worth), and behind Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem. And the more I study their careers, the more I am becoming inclined to give Shaq a slight nod over Kareem for the 5th spot. But for now, I'll keep Kareem at #5.

[QUOTE=AI3Anthony]because thousands of basketball players have Michael Jordans athleticism[/QUOTE]

Err, try like 3-4 players tops in history at SG/SF. MAYBE. lol @ "thousands." :oldlol:

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]I don't see Kareem's peak as being as good as Shaq's. During Kareem's peak individual seasons he was on [B]average teams and never even made it to the finals. [/B][B]Kareem never had the devastating impact Shaq did[/B] and he certainly never inspired his teammates the way Shaq did when he was at his best. [B]During Shaq's peak no one was on his level.[/B] There was always someone arguably as good or better than Kareem.[/QUOTE]
Oh come on.

Also; like Shaq went to the finals with an average teams, supporting casts?:facepalm

Lastly you can't name an all-time great center which is in his prime during Shaq's championship years. What about that?

[QUOTE=Odinn]Oh come on.

Also; like Shaq went to the finals with an average teams, supporting casts?:facepalm

Lastly you can't name an all-time great center which is in his prime during Shaq's championship years. What about that?[/QUOTE]

Kareem went to the Finals with average teams?

3rd Year Shaq absolutely beasted against Prime Hakeem
29/12.5/6.3/2.5 60%FG

Kareem was

Shaq's 00 Cast was average certainly not one of the better all around Casts in the league that year.

Other Bigmen he destroyed.
DPOY Mutombo.
Wallace Twins.
Duncan + DRob.
Portland Defense...

Who did Kareem have in the 70's?
Willis Reed and Walton?

Shaq proved he could perform at the highest level against the best competition.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]Kareem went to the Finals with average teams?

3rd Year Shaq absolutely beasted against Prime Hakeem
29/12.5/6.3/2.5 60%FG

Other Bigmen he destroyed.
DPOY Mutombo.
Wallace Twins.
Duncan + DRob.
Portland Defense...

Who did Kareem have in the 70's?
Willis Reed and Walton?[/QUOTE]
You are not even worthed for a reply...

[QUOTE=Odinn]You are not even worthed for a reply...[/QUOTE]

Your average post's are not even worth reading they are so illogical.

Kareem played on some of the most stacked teams ever in LA and along side the greatest PG ever.

Dont think that helped him greatly?

Shaq played with a ballhog SG who although was also a GOAT player certainly didnt benefit him the way Magic did Kareem.

[QUOTE=32Dayz]3rd Year Shaq [B]absolutely beasted[/B] against Prime Hakeem
29/12.5/6.3/2.5 60%FG[/QUOTE]
Look what you wrote and you're still trying. What can I say... Keep trolling.

[QUOTE=Odinn]Look what you wrote and you're still trying. What can I say... Keep trolling.[/QUOTE]

lol?

Guess your one of those Morons who think Hakeem "Dominated" or significantly outplayed Shaq that year.

It's a team game you dont blame a single player for success or failure especially not when that player is playing at a level few players in history have matched.

And you call me a troll.

:facepalm

he got 3 rings as the go to guy, if he had 4-5 as a alpha dawg he would be a goat contender + maybe 1 more mvp

[QUOTE=jlauber]I actually agree with much of this. I am one of the few here who believes that Kareem's career has been over-rated on the forum. On the other hand, a PEAK Shaq was just overwhelming.

I also believe that a motivated Shaq could have been even more dominant, and for a longer period of time. There was really no excuse for him to have NEVER led the NBA in rebounding, especially when he pounded Mutombo in the Finals one year. To be an athletic 7-1, and 325+ lbs, he should have won SEVERAL rebounding titles. He was also a proven shot-blocker in the post-season (again, he had more blocks than Mutombo in that series), so he should have won at least a couple of shot-blocking titles.

Still, as big as he was, and with the weight he was carrying, he was a marvel. In his "three-peat", he had regular seasons of 40.0 mpg, 39.5 mpg, and a slight dropoff to 36.1 mpg. But, then in the post-season, he averaged 43.5 mpg, 42.3 mpg, and 40.8 mpg.

And the man played for 19 seasons. Granted, he was a shell in his 3-4 years, but for a huge chunk of his career, he was a top-5 player (and IMHO, he was the best player in the game from '98 thru '05.)

I personally have Shaq at #6 on my list (for whatever that is worth), and behind Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, and Kareem. And the more I study their careers, the more I am becoming inclined to give Shaq a slight nod over Kareem for the 5th spot. But for now, I'll keep Kareem at #5.[/QUOTE]

Good post. For the record jlauber who rounds out your top 10? 7 through 10 that is.

[QUOTE=Odinn]Oh come on.

Also; like Shaq went to the finals with an average teams, supporting casts? [/quote]

Objectively Kareem's roster with the '78 Lakers is better than the '00 Lakers.

And besides that's not my point. I'm saying the circumstances of Kareem's career were such that during his best individual seasons he had the least talent around him.

[QUOTE=Odinn]Lastly you can't name an all-time great center which is in his prime during Shaq's championship years. What about that?[/QUOTE]

That's my point. The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]Err, try like 3-4 players tops in history at SG/SF. MAYBE. lol @ "thousands." :oldlol:[/QUOTE]

No. A lot of players and athletes around the world possess athleticism close to him. Jordans athleticism isn't what broke him apart from all the others. It was all the intangibles.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]That's my point. The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.[/QUOTE]
That's why said "oh come on".

Shaq didn't make that difference, it was already there.

I'm not trying to discredit Shaq. His peak was top5 at least and can be called arguably the best. But your this argument is invalid I think.

[QUOTE=Odinn]Shaq didn't make that difference, it was already there.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? Without Shaq creating the gap, it's not there

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]What do you mean? Without Shaq creating the gap, it's not there[/QUOTE]
The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.

It's because of Kareem's peers were much better.

[QUOTE=Odinn]The Gap between Shaq and his peers was greater than the gap between Kareem and his.

It's because of Kareem's peers were much better.[/QUOTE]

Shaq had 2 GOAT Finalz performances against Prime Hakeem and DPOY Mutombo.

Regularly dominated against the Spurs duo of Duncan + DRob.

Dominated the Portland defense.

Destroyed the SAC Kings who had Divac.

Made a mockery out of B.Wallace.

owned Mourning/Ewing etc..

Shaq definitely faced better competition then Kareem and had far worse luck with supporting Casts.

Imagine if Shaq got to play on stacked teams like those showtime Lakers or the Big O or had Magic Johnson setting him up for easy baskets instead of Kobe who at times wouldn't even give him his touches due to selfishness/arrogance.

:facepalm

Who did Kareem have to face? Undersized unseld? Undersized Reed?
Bill Walton for 1 or 2 years? Grandpa Wilt with a broken knee?

Most of the C's Kareem faced were either old, undersized or injury prone.

Prime Shaq was a Tier or two above Prime Kareem.

Peak/Prime wise Jordan and Shaq are clearly the two best ever with maybe Wilt a close 3rd.

lol at 32gayz getting bitchslapped by everyone in this thread. gotdamn kid youre like the slut that just keeps coming back to get smacked around and jizzed on

[QUOTE=BlackJoker23]lol at 32gayz getting bitchslapped by everyone in this thread. gotdamn kid youre like the slut that just keeps coming back to get smacked around and jizzed on[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=BlackJoker23]:rant :rant :rant [/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm217/Allume-Le-Cirque/Sig/Kobe-U-Mad.jpg[/IMG]

I piss all over you everytime we have a debate, I understand why you hate me. :lol

Not that you can really debate anything with a retarded Troll.

Nice to see Bigalow hopping on the Troll train and assuming his true form.
Must feel good to drop that "Im a real knowledgeable poster act".