Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

[QUOTE=jlauber]Dantley was on the downside of his career when he was playing with the Pistons. He was still an efficient shooter, but his scoring had dropped considerably by the time he was in Detroit, and his career was basically over after the Pistons traded him.

And you certainly couldn't fault him for Detroit not winning the title in '88. Dantley averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting from the floor, and .859 from the line (and he was BY FAR, the Pistons leading scorer from the line.)

And given the fact that the Lakers were wiped out by injuries in the '89 Finals, I think AD would have won a title with that team.[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I can't claim to be an expert on Dantley's game with Utah, but are you sure he was past his prime when he went to Detroit?

You just mentioned his scoring going down, but isn't that to be expected when going to a better team? Particularly a team like Detroit with so many weapons?

1985-1986 w/ Utah- 29.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3 TO, 56.3 FG%, 62.9 TS%, 36.1 mpg (29 years old)
1986-1987 w/ Detroit- 21.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2 apg, 2.2 TO, 53.4 FG%, 61.4 TS%, 33.8 mpg (30 years old)

He played less minutes with Detroit and dropped from 19.1 FGA to 13.9 FGA.

In '88, Detroit was 54-28 overall, 44-25 with Dantley and 13-6 when Dantley came off the bench. A 10-3 record without him is pretty damn good.

Detroit was 30-12 with Dantley in '89, but 30-6 with Mark Aguirre and 28-4 with Aguirre starting.

Dallas was also better with Dantley than Aguirre. The Mavs went 25-19 with Aguirre and 11-20 with Dantley, 9-16 when Dantley started.

And speaking of Dantley's scoring falling off when he went to Detroit, well Mark Aguirre was 29 in 1989. And he went from 21.7 ppg with Dallas in 34.8 mpg to 15.5 ppg in 29.7 mpg with Detroit.

So while I'm not making a statement one way or the other, there is evidence to suggest that Dantley's impact wasn't half as big as the stats suggest. The knock on him from everything I've heard was that he was a black hole who held the ball for an extremely long time to get his shot. I thought he was impressive with Detroit, but I have my doubts that a contending team was ever going to have him averaging 30.

I would agree that Detroit would've won in '89 with him, though.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]

I would agree that Detroit would've won in '89 with him, though.[/QUOTE]

Hey man, what happened to your YT channel?

[QUOTE=WillC]
More serious and older basketball fans will have a better perspective on things and realise that Worthy was a very talented player and deserving of his credit, but realise that he wasn't necessarily much better than an Alex English or a Dominique Wilkins.
[/QUOTE]
Incidentally, no one in the league made Worthy look great on offense better than those 2. Not a fan of Nique, love English but I would take Worthy over them any day.

[quote]Dantley was on the downside of his career when he was playing with the Pistons. He was still an efficient shooter, but his scoring had dropped considerably by the time he was in Detroit[/quote]

Don't think he'd lost much if anything by that time. His numbers went down a bit his last year in Utah but that had more to do with Karl Malone joining him.

[quote] he was not a good rebounder[/quote]

He hit the offensive boards and I've heard it said he was really only 6'2 not the 6'5 he was listed at.

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Hey man, what happened to your YT channel?[/QUOTE]

Got banned for copyright shit. Started a new one, but I've only uploaded 1 game so far.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Got banned for copyright shit. Started a new one, but I've only uploaded 1 game so far.[/QUOTE]

What's the new name of you're YT channel ?

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]What's the new name of you're YT channel ?[/QUOTE]

returnofshaqattack. I'll have a few more games up soon, but as I said, just have 1 right now.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]

He was a good/very good scorer, a fantastic athlete who was as devastating on the fast break as he was hitting mid range jumpers. But, he was an average defender, an average playmaker and an average rebounder. [/QUOTE]

He was actually considered a very good defender. Not all-league or anything, but very good. The other points I'll definitely concede.

I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

[B]Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%.[/B] He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.[/QUOTE]

Sort of deceptive. Worthy battled injuries all year (consequently missed 30 games). Guy was never the same afterwards.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.[/QUOTE]

While I don't agree with your assessment of Worthy at all, I do agree with this part. Circumstances are extremely important when looking at how much a player excelled and how much they accomplished.

With that being said, you stated that Worthy couldn't be doubled because of the Lakers talent, but he was doubled quite a bit in the post because he was a devastating post player. And he could pass out of double teams quite well. That's why I think he could do just fine on more of a halfcourt team. He had arguably his best season in 1990, and the Lakers pace had slowed considerably by that point with both Magic and Worthy's post up games being as important as their transition game, if not more.

[QUOTE=jlauber]
[B]Having said that, IMHO, Dantley was truly one of the greatest offensive players of all-time.[/B] He was clearly the best scorer in the league from the early 80's until MJ came along later in the decade. And his ability to score 30+ ppg on 18-20 FGAs per game in a span of several seasons was just phenomenal. 30 ppg on .559 to .580 shooting...and all from a 6-5 210 POST player![/QUOTE]

That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??

Dantley was a product of his era.

I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.

[QUOTE=chadcas]I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 [B]he may be top 10 all time.[/B][/QUOTE]

Steady on now :lol . You're right though, Nique would have been seen in a much different light if he was drafted by L.A. I'm fairly confident they could have rattled off 3 titles in 4 years with him instead of Worthy.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

[B]This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.[/B][/QUOTE]

Well said, especially the bolded.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I don't see how someone would come to the conclusion that Kiki or Alex English were better than Worthy. Or Aguirre for that matter. Bernard King during his short prime? Yes. Haven't seen much of Dantley on the Jazz, but he wasn't as good as Worthy when he was a Piston, and he had a chance to win as a guy who wasn't the best player on a loaded team. Maybe they should've won in '88, but he wasn't as good in that role on a contender as Worthy, and Detroit got better after he left.

Worthy was a beast in transition, a reliable mid-range shooter, almost unstoppable in the post, a very good passer out of the post and he almost always raised his game in the playoffs.

There were series when you could argue he was the Lakers MVP. Take the '87 WCF for example when he averaged 30 and was their most consistent player in the series.[/QUOTE]

I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]While I don't agree with your assessment of Worthy at all, I do agree with this part. Circumstances are extremely important when looking at how much a player excelled and how much they accomplished.

With that being said, you stated that Worthy couldn't be doubled because of the Lakers talent, but he was doubled quite a bit in the post because he was a devastating post player. And he could pass out of double teams quite well. That's why I think he could do just fine on more of a halfcourt team. He had arguably his best season in 1990, and the Lakers pace had slowed considerably by that point with both Magic and Worthy's post up games being as important as their transition game, if not more.[/QUOTE]
What is there to disagree with? Weren't a large portion of his pts off the fastbreak?

And like I stated earlier, look at his 92 season. Was he injured? Yes but in thee games he played in the lakers were 28-26. So he wasn't a game changer. And they still had scott, green and a pretty good PG in sedale threat

[QUOTE=97 bulls]What is there to disagree with? Weren't a large portion of his pts off the fastbreak?

And like I stated earlier, look at his 92 season. Was he injured? Yes but in thee games he played in the lakers were 28-26. So he wasn't a game changer. And they still had scott, green and a pretty good PG in sedale threat[/QUOTE]

I think he was a much better passer than you do, I think he was better than an "ok at best" defender, I did see him get doubled quite a bit when he posted up and think he would've done just fine on a team that didn't run as much.

Yes, he did score quite a bit in transition, but I don't think he relied on it.

So I disagree with those parts. As far as the '92 Lakers? They had a lot of injuries. Not just Magic's abrupt retirement, but Sam Perkins and Worthy went down around the same time, that's their 2 leading scorers and Vlade Divac missed more than half of the season.

The Lakers were 23-15 before Worthy missed a game.


[QUOTE=oolalaa]I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc[/QUOTE]

From everything I've seen of Kiki, he was a good shooter, had some nice fairly deceptive moves and good size for a small forward as well as a player with his shooting touch, but his scoring was inflated due to his extremely fast-paced teams and the era. Plus, he seemed to be one-dimensional and a horrible defender.

I doubt you'll find many who would put him in Worthy's class.

[QUOTE=bizil]Well I think Worthy could have been a scoring machine franchise player a hair below the level of Nique, King, English, and Dantley. Meaning putting up around 27 points a night peak value wise. The other four were getting 30 points a night at their best. But Worthy was a better defender than all four of them. He was also the biggest at 6'9 230 pounds. And he played lots of PF early in his career. James was a beast and in my book passes the eye test for an alpha dog caliber SF, even though he was the second or third option for some of those Laker teams.

In terms of GOAT u factor longevity being great,numbers, team accolades,and solo accolades. In this sense, I would rank these at the GOAT SF's:

Bird
Doc
Hondo
Baylor
Barry
Lebron
Pip
Nique
Billy C
Pierce

I think Worthy has a case to be in the top ten SF's ever considering all factors along with English, Dantley, King. But peak value wise I would say: (no order after the top 4)

Bird
Lebron
Doc
Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Nique
G Hill
King
Billy C.

So James in my book is probably rated just right. I feel Nique should have been on the 50 greatest and was better than Worthy. However I would leave James on and take off somebody else like Shaq, who had played only 5 years.[/QUOTE]

I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe [I]he[/I] was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I think he was a much better passer than you do, I think he was better than an "ok at best" defender, I did see him get doubled quite a bit when he posted up and think he would've done just fine on a team that didn't run as much.

Yes, he did score quite a bit in transition, but I don't think he relied on it.

So I disagree with those parts. As far as the '92 Lakers? They had a lot of injuries. Not just Magic's abrupt retirement, but Sam Perkins and Worthy went down around the same time, that's their 2 leading scorers and Vlade Divac missed more than half of the season.

The Lakers were 23-15 before Worthy missed a game.




From everything I've seen of Kiki, he was a good shooter, had some nice fairly deceptive moves and good size for a small forward as well as a player with his shooting touch, but his scoring was inflated due to his extremely fast-paced teams and the era. Plus, he seemed to be one-dimensional and a horrible defender.

I doubt you'll find many who would put him in Worthy's class.[/QUOTE]
The lakers were 28-26 in the games he played in. And finished with a 43 win season. Now I'm not saying divac and perkins missing games didn't have an effect. But let's be honest, you can say that about a lot of players. Hell most players and teams. It wasn't like he missed these guys and still led the lakers to 50 plus wins.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
[B]Where's McHale?[/B]
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - [B]where's Chet Walker?[/B] Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe [I]he[/I] was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, Kevin McHale was a power forward!!

Secondly, i like Chet Walker aswell - i think he has a decent case for the HOF - but he wasn't in Cunninghams class offensively.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc[/QUOTE]

Kiki was a gun. His D was never real high quality, lotta guys got into shootouts with him.
Kiki could really drive early on in his career. He was a real slasher but then he hurt his back about midway through his career, so he changed his style into a bomber. He played in the early era of the 3 point line when strategy was real confused.

It was the offensive plan for 40 years that you get the ball into the paint to score. The 3 point line left coaches groping for a plan because although guys all the way back to Bill Sharman in the 50s were taking 25 foot shots, they were usually done on the flat run in a transition game. They'd do bombs away on a fast break while the center or a big forward crashed into the paint for the putback.

Kiki tho.... to me he understood what that 3 point line was doing to the game maybe before some other guys... and being a good shot, he took advantage of it sooner.

Other thing about VandeWeghe is - he didn't [I]invent[/I] the Dirk one foot fadeaway jumper - guys like Don Ohl, Lou Hudson & Wali Jones were dropping lots of them in the 60s - but he sure did perfect it. His fadeaway was money

Coaches at all levels teach the Kiki jab step & you see it everywhere today.
This is real primitive compared to Kiki but it's the idea
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FffYX2sPaPc[/url]


Here's a little clip of Kiki's fadeaway exactly copied by Carmelo
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB0CFX8p7VM[/url]

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe [I]he[/I] was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.[/QUOTE]


McHale was a PF not SF. I was talking about my view on SF's in that post. In terms of PF, McHale is a top 6-7 GOAT PF of all time. McHale gets mad props from me always!

Overrated? :confusedshrug: If anything, Big Game James was underrated. I mean from 1985-86 through 1991-92, his lowest PPG total was 19.4 and his highest was 21.4. He was a very efficient scorer, solid defender, and an underrated passer. I don't see how he could be overrated.

I think Worthy is underrated for his ablity to be an alpha dog scorer. It was clear to me Worthy was on that level at his best. He was on a team though that had guys like Magic, Kareem, McAdoo, Wilkes, Scott, etc. at different times. But as the years went on, James got the Finals MVP and led the Lakers in scoring for a season. The thing is when u got Magic, Kareem,and Worthy as your top three options, u have three alpha dog type guys. I would say Kareem at his best would be the number one option though. But an alpha dog in an alpha dog, and the Lakers had the fortune to have three.

But I feel Worthy is also overrated at times in terms of his career to other premier SF's. Team accolades definitely add to a player's legacy and rightfully so. But in my book, Nique and Bernard King are better players than Worthy. For Worthy to get on the 50 greatest list, but not have Nique is fishy to me. It would be the equivalent damn near of having McHale on the list but not having Malone or Barkley due to rings.

Not saying Worthy doesn't deserve 50 greatest, but to say he's a better player than Nique or King simply due to rings doesn't add up. This is the view of many when comparing Worthy to Nique and a Bernard King. So in that sense Worthy is overrated at times. The glow of Showtime definitely made him even more formidable when looking at his legacy. I actually blame the media and many of the former players (in particular the guys from the 50's and 60's) for this instead of many knowledgable fans like us on here. The 50 greatest and lists like that are media and former player driven.

What's puzzling to me about Nique is he was a household name and made the L a lot of money. And on top of it, he was one of the most prolific scorers of all time. For him not to make the Dream Team, 50 greatest, or first ballot HOFer makes him the most underrated superstar (for a guy who was a superstar on the court in terms of numbers and a superstar in terms of ratings, ticket sales, etc.) possibly ever.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??

Dantley was a product of his era.[/QUOTE]

And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.

[QUOTE=jlauber]And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. His '88 Piston team came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426 shooting in that series.

The fact was, Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable, but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.[/QUOTE]

Chamberlain was the ultimate scorer. Easily.

[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]Chamberlain was the ultimate scorer. Easily.[/QUOTE]

I guess I should have worded it along the lines that Dantley was AMONG the ULTIMATE scorers. 30 ppg on .560+ FG% and .850 from the line.

Chamberlain, MJ, Kareem, and McAdoo were also be in the category of explosive, efficient scorers, and UNSTOPPABLE scorers.

The only player to ever win an MVP with Michael Jordan as a teammate!

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Like I said, I can't claim to be an expert on Dantley's game with Utah, but are you sure he was past his prime when he went to Detroit?

You just mentioned his scoring going down, but isn't that to be expected when going to a better team? Particularly a team like Detroit with so many weapons?

1985-1986 w/ Utah- 29.8 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 3.5 apg, 3 TO, 56.3 FG%, 62.9 TS%, 36.1 mpg (29 years old)
1986-1987 w/ Detroit- 21.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2 apg, 2.2 TO, 53.4 FG%, 61.4 TS%, 33.8 mpg (30 years old)

He played less minutes with Detroit and dropped from 19.1 FGA to 13.9 FGA.

In '88, Detroit was 54-28 overall, 44-25 with Dantley and 13-6 when Dantley came off the bench. A 10-3 record without him is pretty damn good.

Detroit was 30-12 with Dantley in '89, but 30-6 with Mark Aguirre and 28-4 with Aguirre starting.

Dallas was also better with Dantley than Aguirre. The Mavs went 25-19 with Aguirre and 11-20 with Dantley, 9-16 when Dantley started.

And speaking of Dantley's scoring falling off when he went to Detroit, well Mark Aguirre was 29 in 1989. And he went from 21.7 ppg with Dallas in 34.8 mpg to 15.5 ppg in 29.7 mpg with Detroit.

So while I'm not making a statement one way or the other, there is evidence to suggest that Dantley's impact wasn't half as big as the stats suggest. The knock on him from everything I've heard was that he was a black hole who held the ball for an extremely long time to get his shot. I thought he was impressive with Detroit, but I have my doubts that a contending team was ever going to have him averaging 30.

I would agree that Detroit would've won in '89 with him, though.[/QUOTE]

I really can't argue with any of the above except to say that a prime Dantley was mired on poor teams. And, as I mentioned in a post above, his overall impact may have not been as much as a 30 ppg .560 shooter should have been,...perhaps because of poor defense and rebounding...but I still say that he was among the most unstoppable offensive players of all-time. It was truly remarkable that a 6-5 (or less) player, at around 210 lbs, and with really no range over 15 ft, could so thoroughly dominate opposing defenders and defenses. 30 ppg, .560 FG%, .850 FT%...just amazing.

[QUOTE=jlauber]And when Dantley came back in the 83-84 season, his team jumped from 30-52 to 45-37. He was traded to the Pistons, and Detroit improved from 46-36 to 52-30, and then went 54-28 in 87-88. [B]His '88 Piston team[/B] came within an eyelash of beating the Lakers in the Finals, too, in a series in which he averaged 21.3 ppg on .573 shooting (and was BY FAR the Pistons leading scorer from the line.) Meanwhile, [B]Isiah Thomas averaged 19.7 ppg on .426[/B] shooting in that series.

The fact was, [B]Dantley played on crappy TEAMS for the majority of his career[/B]. And, basketball is a TEAM game. A PRIME MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and Kobe all played on losing TEAMs.

As far as a "black hole", in his FOUR 30+ ppg seasons (in which he shot .558, .559, .570, and .580 from the floor), he averaged 3.9, 4.0, 4.0, and 4.8 apg. He was clearly NOT a "black hole."

[B]Dantley was among the most unstoppable OFFENSIVE players of all-time[/B]. MULTIPLE seasons of 30+ ppg and on just eye-popping efficiency. And it was truly remarkable considering that he was no more than 6-5, and seldom shot beyond 15 ft. I used to shake my head watching him play. How could that little guy score so easily even when doubled or guarded by 6-10 players?

[B]Perhaps his overall TEAM impact was questionable[/B], but don't kid yourself, the man was UNSTOPPABLE. He was scoring 30 ppg on 18-20 FGAs, and pounding teams at the line. He was the ULTIMATE scorer.[/QUOTE]

1. His '88 piston team? [B]HIS[/B] 88' PISTON TEAM?? you don't really mean that do you? You know Isiah was the leader and best player of those mid to late 80s pistons teams right? RIGHT??

2. Not sure he played on crappy teams throughout his career. He played with Kareem, Jamaal Wilkes and Norm Nixon in L.A. He played with a prime Darell Griffith (good SG before his injuries), Rickey Green (decent point guard), John Drew (when he wasn't injured), Thurl Bailey (ok centre), a young Stockton and a rookie Karl Malone in Utah. He played with Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer and Rodman in Detroit. He played with Mark Aguirre in Dallas.

He obviously had some very average teammates in his prime but he clearly had no ability to raise his their level of play either. He wasn't a leader and ive heard that he was a bit of an arsehole to boot (supposedly the reason he left Detroit).

3. He was one of the most unstoppable [B]scorers[/B] of all time. A distinction should be made between offense and scoring.

4. If you do think that Dantley was one of the greatest offensive players of all time then surely you must think very highly of Alex English and Bernard king as well...

Englishs best 4 scoring seasons were - 28.4 ppg on 52%, 27.9 ppg on 52%, 29.8 ppg on 50% and 28.6 ppg on 50%. Impressive stuff right?

Kings 2 best seasons before his injury were - 26.3 ppg on 57% and 32.9 ppg on 53%. :eek: holy moly!

5. His overall team impact was beyond questionable. His scoring had almost no impact on his teams results. Like i said - HE WAS A PRODUCT OF HIS ERA. Teams were scoring a tonne of points in the early 80s.

But back to the topic? Was he better than Worthy?

[QUOTE=jlauber]I guess I should have worded it along the lines that Dantley was AMONG the ULTIMATE scorers. 30 ppg on .560+ FG% and .850 from the line.

Chamberlain, MJ, Kareem, and McAdoo were also be in the category of explosive, efficient scorers, and UNSTOPPABLE scorers.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget George Gervin, Bernard King & Shaq :D

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]Anybody have Worthy's numbers from 1986-1991 in the games Magic didn't play in?[/QUOTE]
22.8 ppg on 57.3 fg%, not taking into account the final game of the 86 season when the team was resting for the playoffs (in which he dropped 15 points in 20 minutes) and his 35 point Nov 89 game against Phoenix in which Magic got ejected after 3 minutes into the game for brawling with KJ.

Also, "prime" (89-91) Worthy without Magic is at about 29 ppg.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]
This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.[/QUOTE]
Kind of how you are ignoring that he was plagued by injuries in 92 and also the psychological impact that Magic's sudden, pre-early retirement and what caused it might have had on him and his game, right?

[QUOTE=chadcas]I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.[/QUOTE]
OR, he puts similar numbers to Worthy due to playing next to 3 20 ppg guys, in addition to not being as good defensively and possibly causing more damage then good to the Showtime team play due to his ego?

Wade is more overrated than Worthy will ever be.

[QUOTE=DirtySanchez]How is Big Game James overrated in the first place?

Nobody calls him the GOAT forward. Nobody says he is better then such and such.

Really nobody says anything except he was a great player who won rings with Magic.

I see no reason for this thread.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

[quote]He played with a prime Darell Griffith (good SG before his injuries)[/quote]

He had a foot injury. What derailed him was a coach that put a white stiff in the line-up ahead of him because he held out one year not the injury.

[quote]Rickey Green (decent point guard)[/quote]

He was one of the best pg in the league for a few seasons.

[quote]John Drew (when he wasn't injured)[/quote]

Drew was with them very briefly and he lit it up too! The benefits of coke on display. Don't remember injury just a lifetime ban.

[quote]Thurl Bailey (ok centre)[/quote]

SF. Very good 6th man.

[quote]He played with Mark Aguirre in Dallas[/quote]

Was traded for Aquirre.

[QUOTE=Kovach]Kind of how you are ignoring that he was plagued by injuries in 92 and also the psychological impact that Magic's sudden, pre-early retirement and what caused it might have had on him and his game, right?[/QUOTE]
Lol pshycological impact? James worthy is a grown ass man. That was a 10 year vet when magic anouned his retirement.

And I acknowledged worthys injuries. But the lakers were 28-26 with him in the lineup. Now you caan excuse him for having nagging injuries but then that's literrally 90% of the players in the nba. Especially after 8-9 seasons. Id say most players have nagging injuries. He still played an avg of 37 minutes if I remember correct in 92.

Psyschologial impact lol

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol pshycological impact? James worthy is a grown ass man. That was a 10 year vet when magic anouned his retirement.
[/QUOTE]
Yes and? That wouldn't make him immune to a possible and, considering the circumstances, very probable loss of motivation.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]
And I acknowledged worthys injuries. But the lakers were 28-26 with him in the lineup. Now you caan excuse him for having nagging injuries but then that's literrally 90% of the players in the nba. Especially after 8-9 seasons. Id say most players have nagging injuries. He still played an avg of 37 minutes if I remember correct in 92.
[/QUOTE]
Worthy was not the same player in 92 as he was in the seasons prior by any stretch of imagination, one only really needs a functional set of eyes (focused on the games instead of b-r.com) to be able to comprehend that. Of course, you are a guy who takes pleasure in using past-prime, injury-ridden seasons players had against them (unless of course the player in question happens to be Pippen) so it doesn't really matter to you. Heck, you were even using the 93/94 season when he was barely walking to make some silly, meaningless points against him.