Most of Griffin's wind-up Dunks are Offensive Fouls

[QUOTE=Phong][IMG]http://www.nbadunks.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Blake-Griffin-Dunk-on-Kris-Humphries.jpg[/IMG] [/QUOTE]
I was thinking twice about this one because Griffin's clearly squared to the rack, but photos often offer only 1/100th of the truth, which in this case was that Griffin initially rose for a two-hand dunk before switching to one to avoid the defense. The off-hand did not have an affect, intentionally or unintentionally, on Humphries' contest and typically I don't think it'd be there on a squared up slam unless the situation occurred as it did (beginning as a two-hander): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJjaqINUjIo[/url]

[IMG]http://sportsinvasion.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/756-Opu67.St_.551.jpg[/IMG]

:lol :lol :lol @ Blake's hand actually [I]GRAB [/I]the defenders arm

He'd foul at at Rucker Park before he'll ever foul out of an NBA game :roll:

[QUOTE=BGriffin's Dad]most players stick out their off-hand when they go up for a dunk, its a natural motion when you're dunking... and when there's a little contact on the off-hand it doesn't automatically mean it's a foul... has to actually be a clear-out where the dunker pushes [/QUOTE]

b-b-b-but it's natural motion!

[IMG]http://stacheketball.neswblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/spuddwebb.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0221/nba_g_erving_gb1_400.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/ClydeDrexlerDunk_display_image.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://everydaydolce.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/michael-jordan-free-throw-line-dunk-.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.hoopsdaily.com/files/images/jrich01.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://jaydubbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/michael20jordan20dunk1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://lsnhs.leesummit.k12.mo.us/webclasseslsn/dtwp06-07/spring07/choice/hour5/basketball_jordanl/images/mj1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1999/jordan_retires/news/1999/01/12/jordan_bythenumbers/lg_jordan45_ap_01.jpg[/IMG]






:lol

that shit aint natural dude, It's a cheap move that some players do to sneak a bump on the defender to improve the odds that they won't be rejected, and these new (lack of) defensive contact rules favor them getting a call over the defender. But it's always been minimal contact, just enough to fool gullible fans into thinking it's all purely incidental, (as all sneaky moves should appear at first glance).

The Golden Boy takes cheap play and obvious ref favortism to a level unseen since Shaq's elbows to the face, and shoulder dip offensive fouls. Blake is "incidentally" grabbing arms, elbowing throats, and stiff-arming the shit out of everyone on virtually every dunk like he's the NBA's greatest football player of all time. And yet when someone body checks his ass to return the favor they get ejected and the Clippers fans start crying getting their panties in a knot because it was "dangerous" and bwake gwiffin coulda got hurt! :roll:

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]
that shit aint natural dude[/QUOTE]
I would say refer to my post with the Vince Carter picture for a deeper explanation on that front. All one-handed dunks are not created equal. I'm not sure who can dunk on this message board and who can't, but I think even if one has just goofed around on a lowered bucket, it'd probably be relatively easy to notice what happens to one's off arm when dunking perpendicular to the rack (as opposed to slamming with body directly facing the rim).

To be completely honest, you probably don't even need a rim to mimic this action. I honestly just gave it a shot while walking down the hallway. If I mimic a slam while facing the basket, off-hand won't be in front. But if I tilt my jump a la Blake and vintage breakaway alley-oop catching Vince, the off-arm's naturally arising.

Here is what that jumping like that looks like without a defender: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnVC_t2ufR4#t=0m16s[/url]

To further illustrate, here's an example three different types of Russell Westbrook dunks. And surely, I wouldn't expect three examples from one dunker to fully convince you. But I find these to be good indicators:

1. One hand, one foot (thus no arm lead): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq15yGbop7k#t=0m32s[/url]

2. One hand, two feet, squared (off-arm raised but not leading): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzpaSeIbpLQ[/url]

3. One hand, two feet, leaning (off-arm leads by nature): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY-pw-Qs9vw#t=0m16s[/url]

To be clear, this doesn't mean Griffin has never been able to simultaneously clear someone out with an off-arm. I'm pretty sure we've all been guilty of it at some point. My stance is more or less that the arm in that specific dunk motion, is coming up no matter what. It's not a matter of a player consciously saying, "You know what? I'm going to lift up my arm and beat someone with it."

The biggest difference I've seen between Blake's dunks and many normal dunkers, is he drops a heavy hammer.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I would say refer to my post with the Vince Carter picture for a deeper explanation on that front. All one-handed dunks are not created equal. I'm not sure who can dunk on this message board and who can't, but I think even if one has just goofed around on a lowered bucket, it'd probably be relatively easy to notice what happens to one's arm when dunking perpendicular to the rack (as opposed to slamming with body directly facing the rim).

To be completely honest, you probably don't even need a rim to mimic this action. I honestly just gave it a shot while walking down the hallway. If I mimic a slam while facing the basket, off-hand won't be in front. But if I tilt my jump a la Blake and vintage breakaway alley-oop catching Vince, the off-arm's naturally arising.

Here is what that jumping like that looks like without a defender: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnVC_t2ufR4#t=0m16s[/url][/QUOTE]

It's a balancing reaction/mechanism. You're completely right.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]photos of 7 completely uncontested, wide open dunks (some in the dunk contest? lol) and 1 of MJ going up for a layup[/QUOTE]

:lol :facepalm

[QUOTE=Rake2204]I would say refer to my post with the Vince Carter picture for a deeper explanation on that front. All one-handed dunks are not created equal. I'm not sure who can dunk on this message board and who can't, but I think even if one has just goofed around on a lowered bucket, it'd probably be relatively easy to notice what happens to one's off arm when dunking perpendicular to the rack (as opposed to slamming with body directly facing the rim).

To be completely honest, you probably don't even need a rim to mimic this action. I honestly just gave it a shot while walking down the hallway. If I mimic a slam while facing the basket, off-hand won't be in front. But if I tilt my jump a la Blake and vintage breakaway alley-oop catching Vince, the off-arm's naturally arising.

Here is what that jumping like that looks like without a defender: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnVC_t2ufR4#t=0m16s[/url]

To further illustrate, here's an example three different types of Russell Westbrook dunks. And surely, I wouldn't expect three examples from one dunker to fully convince you. But I find these to be good indicators:

1. One hand, one foot (thus no arm lead): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq15yGbop7k#t=0m32s[/url]

2. One hand, two feet, squared (off-arm raised but not leading): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzpaSeIbpLQ[/url]

3. One hand, two feet, leaning (off-arm leads by nature): [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY-pw-Qs9vw#t=0m16s[/url]

To be clear, this doesn't mean Griffin has never been able to simultaneously clear someone out with an off-arm. I'm pretty sure we've all been guilty of it at some point. My stance is more or less that the arm in that specific dunk motion, is coming up no matter what. It's not a matter of a player consciously saying, "You know what? I'm going to lift up my arm and beat someone with it."

The biggest difference I've seen between Blake's dunks and many normal dunkers, is he drops a heavy hammer.[/QUOTE]

exactly.. finally someone who understands the mechanics of in-game dunking :applause:

[QUOTE=BGriffin's Dad]exactly.. finally someone who understands the mechanics of in-game dunking :applause:[/QUOTE]How does the mechanics of in-game dunking explain griffin grabbing the defender's arm?

[IMG]http://sportsinvasion.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/756-Opu67.St_.551.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/media/motion/2012/0411/dm_120411_Dunk_of_the_night.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://yfrog.com/oescslj:iphone[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Phong]How does the mechanics of in-game dunking explain griffin grabbing the defender's arm?

[IMG]http://sportsinvasion.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/756-Opu67.St_.551.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/media/motion/2012/0411/dm_120411_Dunk_of_the_night.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://yfrog.com/oescslj:iphone[/IMG][/QUOTE]

:roll:

It's natural motion don't you get it? It's totally natural to grab an opponents arm and push it away from you, just like it's totally natural to flair your elbows right into the softspot of your defenders neck :lol

That's an offensive foul.

lol @ long posts attempting to explain "the mechanics of dunking" to protect Blakes reputation :roll:

That's why people should not challenge his shot but just take THEIR forearm and drive it into his chest.

-Smak

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]:roll:

It's natural motion don't you get it? It's totally natural to grab an opponents arm and push it away from you, just like it's totally natural to flair your elbows right into the softspot of your defenders neck :lol[/QUOTE]It's funny how the mechanics of in-game dunkings change depending on the situation: sometimes it's an out streched arm straight in front of you, sometimes it's an elbow and sometimes it's a bent arm with a claw hand.

[QUOTE=ILLsmak]That's why people should not challenge his shot but just take THEIR forearm and drive it into his chest.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

But then Stern would slap them with a 10 game suspension because he "risked" injury to Blake. It'd be interesting if another STAR did it though. I.e. another ticket-seller. I can definitely see an increasingly bold Bynum doing this sooner than later.

Cavaliers you've become an annoying troll overnight bud. You're actually a lot like the CP3 butthurt crew that use every single post here trying and failing to degrade CP3. You need to find something else to contribute outside of Blake Griffin hate and Wilt Chamberlain dick sucking.

You're the offspring of Joyner and Celticsfag clearly.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Cavaliers you've become an annoying troll overnight bud. You're actually a lot like the CP3 butthurt crew that use every single post here trying and failing to degrade CP3. You need to find something else to contribute outside of Blake Griffin hate and Wilt Chamberlain dick sucking.

You're the offspring of Joyner and Celticsfag clearly.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.lilomaternity.com/blog/images/baby-crying.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Phong]It's funny how the mechanics of in-game dunkings change depending on the situation: sometimes it's an out streched arm straight in front of you, sometimes it's an elbow and sometimes it's a bent arm with a claw hand.[/QUOTE]

someone cue up VC's dunk on Zo. I think that's the best example of a body-absorbing posterizing without resorting to using the off hand.

I miss old Vince. Seeing that failed layup the other day actually made me sad for a minute.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][IMG]http://www.lilomaternity.com/blog/images/baby-crying.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Cute baby.

[QUOTE=ILLsmak]That's why people should not challenge his shot but just take THEIR forearm and drive it into his chest.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

Why do you put your username at the end of your posts? It's completely pointless.

-Heavincent

[QUOTE=Phong][IMG]http://sportsinvasion.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/756-Opu67.St_.551.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://blake-griffin.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Blake-Clippers-Dunk.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://lakeshowlife.com/files/2012/04/6160642.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/media/motion/2012/0411/dm_120411_Dunk_of_the_night.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.nbadunks.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Blake-Griffin-Dunk-on-Kris-Humphries.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://yfrog.com/oescslj:iphone[/IMG][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Phong][IMG]http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/2095-2/kobe-dunks-over-tim-duncan-full_getty-71796446ng017_spurs_lakers_8_20_46_pm.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/_lebron_dunk1.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3YNF4DPI1og/T4EoVUBWZTI/AAAAAAAAPOM/Dzc0OcJ7M5U/s1600/Kevin%2BDurant%2BDunks%2BOn%2BRoy%2BHibbert.jpeg[/IMG] [IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_42w5-R0zz2g/S1qXBZFGVTI/AAAAAAAAKqw/gxxoH4yxDIM/s400/Andre%2BIguodala%2BDunks%2BOn%2BErick%2BDampier%2B3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Good work Phong.

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]lol @ long posts attempting to explain "the mechanics of dunking" to protect Blakes reputation :roll:[/QUOTE]
I felt as though it took a relatively extended post to go beyond the mere "No it's not/yes it is" back and forth. I attempted to explain as a lifelong fan of the dunk, not as a backer of Blake Griffin's reputation. I thought what I had to say had a lot of merit and I supported my claim with examples. I'm not saying it's my way or the highway, but I like to think what I said was worthy of consideration.

[quote=NBA.com]

a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an opponent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a position that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.[/quote]

Obviously there is grey area, room for interpretation, with any foul, but the rules are pretty clear on this. There's a difference between using your arm for mid-air stability/balance and kind of colliding naturally with the defender... and using your arm to hold, push, or impede the defender for the sake of making room for your attempt. Players get called for this all time time, and rightfully so. you can't tell me that Griffin's off hand getting as high up as the defender's blocking hand is "normal".

[QUOTE=SCdac]Obviously there is grey area, room for interpretation, with any foul, but the rules are pretty clear on this. There's a difference between using your arm for mid-air stability/balance and kind of colliding naturally with the defender... and using your arm to hold, push, or impede the defender for the sake of making room for your attempt. Players get called for this all time time, and rightfully so. you can't tell me that Griffin's off hand getting as high up as the defender's blocking hand is "normal".[/QUOTE]
If I had to be truthful, I actually would in fact find the off-hand height to be normal. I think it's completely dependent upon where the defender's at in terms of height.

For instance, using the Frye/Griffin example. A snapshot (provided a page earlier) can make it seem as if Griffin has a secret motive, and it's to perform a prolonged grab on a defender rising high to make a block. However, I feel as though videos tend to provide more truth in this regard. Here's the play: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cLEDVvwVUA[/url]

To be clear, that video doesn't mean there wasn't a grab. But as fans of the game, I think one can recognize the incidental nature of such contact (or at least it's non-importance to the play). As in, if we were honest with ourselves, and we were officiating such a game, we're likely not going to bat an eye at what his left arm may have done to a player who was well on his way toward descent and was not challenging Griffin's dunk to begin with.

Sometimes photos can in fact tell the whole story. Oftentimes, they cannot. To be completely truthful, when I was younger, I used to look at this picture in my Inside Stuff magazine . . .

[img]http://tzovas.net/nbastars/webb.jpg[/img]

For years, I thought it was a photo of Spud Webb performing a "cross-heels" trick dunk. I thought that was what made his slam so special. I used to "cross-heel" dunk on my lowered rim as a 3rd grader to be like Spud. I mean, as it turns out, it wasn't a cross-heel thing, it was a double pump two handed: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5wBI98NXEE#t=0m14s[/url] . And that's kind of my point. I see how folks were up in arms about the Gasol dunk, but to pull photo stills and draw by-the-books-that's-illegal-and-he-should-be-fined conclusions might be a little much.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]For instance, using the Frye/Griffin example. A snapshot (provided a page earlier) can make it seem as if Griffin has a secret motive, and it's to perform a prolonged grab on a defender rising high to make a block. However, I feel as though videos tend to provide more truth in this regard. Here's the play: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cLEDVvwVUA[/url][/QUOTE]Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.

[img]http://nsa22.casimages.com/img/2012/04/13/120413015526977886.gif[/img]

Damn Phong delivering fatal blow after blow to them trolls :applause:

[QUOTE=Phong]Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.

[img]http://nsa22.casimages.com/img/2012/04/13/120413015526977886.gif[/img][/QUOTE]

:applause:

thats one heavy dose of ether :lol

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]:roll:

It's natural motion don't you get it? It's totally natural to grab an opponents arm and push it away from you, just like it's totally natural to flair your elbows right into the softspot of your defenders neck :lol[/QUOTE]

It's totally natural to travel but unfortunately it's against the rules.

I like how the BG fanboys had nothing to say until they had someone to bandwagon off of (Rake) :lol

[QUOTE=Phong]Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.

[img]http://nsa22.casimages.com/img/2012/04/13/120413015526977886.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
I feel as though my second paragraph on the Griffin/Frye exchange was overlooked.

[quote]To be clear, that video doesn't mean there wasn't a grab. But as fans of the game, I think one can recognize the incidental nature of such contact (or at least it's non-importance to the play). As in, if we were honest with ourselves, and we were officiating such a game, we're likely not going to bat an eye at what his left arm may have done to a player who was well on his way toward descent and was not challenging Griffin's dunk to begin with.[/quote]
Initially, I referred to the grab as "incidental" but I realized that was likely the wrong word for the situation. "Non-important" (which I mentioned in the parentheses) is at least closer to what I was going for. Some may feel Frye would have successfully blocked the dunk had there been no off-arm contact. I am not in that camp, which is why I refer to it as being non-important (or I suppose unimportant might be the correct word).

The only point I was trying to make there was how a photo is left open to interpretation. Maybe I could look at the Frye photo and assume "Hey, you know what? I bet that was a super quick grab that occurred in the blink of an eye and is likely comparable to a number of other grabs that occur in the game of basketball". Or I could have looked at that photo and thought, "Wow, look how long he's hanging onto him, how could the officials miss that?"

Essentially, to spell the point out, I feel photos only tell part of the story. Full videos often provide perspective for what we're seeing. And as I mentioned, I acknowledge the grab, but I feel the video shows it wasn't as prolonged, devious or integral to the play as many are led to believe.

To be truthful, I feel as though we could study small portions of any given possession and discover numerous by-the-book infractions. It's not something I'm terribly interested in doing, but it's there. Still, I find the vast majority of Griffin's dunks to be of legal nature. Contrary to popular belief, I do not think the NBA has conspired to allow Blake Griffin to complete a style of dunk they'd otherwise deem illegal. This doesn't mean all his dunks are devoid of illegalities, but as a whole, I support his finishes.

[QUOTE=Jameerthefear]I like how the BG fanboys had nothing to say until they had someone to bandwagon off of (Rake) :lol[/QUOTE]
I apologize in that regard.

[QUOTE=taucesays]It's totally natural to travel but unfortunately it's against the rules.[/QUOTE]

good call

-Smak

[QUOTE=Phong]Using all 3 angles on the video, and going frame by frame, you can see Frye raising his arm for a block attempt, Griffin grabbing it and pushing it down until it's no longer raised.

[img]http://nsa22.casimages.com/img/2012/04/13/120413015526977886.gif[/img][/QUOTE]
You're my new favorite poster.

Rake, I get what you're saying, and nobody wants the game grinded to a halt because of foul call after foul call... but your explanations make me wonder, at what point [I]would[/I] you call it an offensive foul? Regardless of height differential, at what point is the offensive player using the off-arm too much in your opinion (as far as slam-dunks)? ... Assuming the defender isn't going to block the shot anyways (thus making it "unimportant") seems kind of like shaky logic. We would never know if he was going to block the shot if they don't get a fair chance to, and certainly it won't appear like they were if not given a fair chance. Griffin I believe was the league leader in dunks last season, I'd venture to say the majority of them were legit, not just criticizing to do it, but for example that dunk on Gasol the other day looked like an offensive foul (imo). Was it "natural" to drive his arm into Pau's face? seems pretty cheap to me, however nasty and intense.

[IMG]http://wac.450F.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/club937.com/files/2012/04/Blake-Gasol-e1333626847504.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=SCdac]Rake, I get what you're saying, and nobody wants the game grinded to a halt because of foul call after foul call... but your explanations make me wonder, at what point [I]would[/I] you call it an offensive foul? Regardless of height differential, at what point is the offensive player using the off-arm too much in your opinion (as far as slam-dunks)? ... Assuming the defender isn't going to block the shot anyways (thus making it "unimportant") seems kind of like shaky logic. We would never know if he was going to block the shot if they don't get a fair chance to, and certainly it won't appear like they were if not given a fair chance. Griffin I believe was the league leader in dunks last season, I'd venture to say the majority of them were legit, not just criticizing to do it, but for example that dunk on Gasol the other day looked like an offensive foul (imo). Was it "natural" to drive his arm into Pau's face? seems pretty cheap to me, however nasty and intense.

[IMG]http://wac.450F.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/club937.com/files/2012/04/Blake-Gasol-e1333626847504.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
To be short with it for the time being, I believe the line is crossed when someone blatantly and obviously skews from what their normal action may have looked like had they not been contested. It's obviously just my opinion, but in the Gasol dunk situation, if Griffin were all by himself, I feel his dunk would have looked the same in terms of where his arm would have been. Had Gasol had been a little to the left of Griffin, I still feel Griffin's arm would have gone to the same spot, perhaps brushing Gasol's shoulder or chest.

I know there's portions of that first paragraph to address and clarify, and I feel there's more to say on this topic but for now I must go watch a new episode of The Office circle the drain.

I really like Blake Griffin but at this point there is some pretty damning evidence about what he does with that off arm during his dunks.

A lot of these are fouls.

[QUOTE=Rake2204]To be short with it for the time being, I believe the line is crossed when someone blatantly and obviously skews from what their normal action may have looked like had they not been contested. It's obviously just my opinion, but in the Gasol dunk situation, if Griffin were all by himself, I feel his dunk would have looked the same in terms of where his arm would have been. Had Gasol had been a little to the left of Griffin, I still feel Griffin's arm would have gone to the same spot, perhaps brushing Gasol's shoulder or chest.

I know there's portions of that first paragraph to address and clarify, and I feel there's more to say on this topic but for now I must go watch a new episode of The Office circle the drain.[/QUOTE]

Sorry dude but you're wrong. It's right there in the pic you quote.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]It's a balancing reaction/mechanism. You're completely right.[/QUOTE]

And you're just a moron.