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[QUOTE=plowking]Seems like you're perfectly okay with gargling another mans balls though, as long as its Jordan.
I on the other hand don't roll that way. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Yeah the whole world knows you're such a manly man. :rolleyes:
Not that it matters to anyone though. :roll:
Keep on sucking Lechoke's nuts plowedking. :applause:
[QUOTE=Asukal]For being one of the greatest scorers known in NBA history why the hell did they ask him to pass more? If he was so good on scoring, why should he pass more? Unless of course his scoring isn't really working and he is just stat padding to the detriment of his team. :roll:
Jordan was asked to trust his team mates more yet his scoring only dipped a few points down. They told him, nobody won the title as the scoring champ and he went out to prove them wrong. Wilt? He listened to the coaches and won 2 rings lol. :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
As far as the first paragraph is concerned, this is not a even a conversation that would have been had pre late 1980's. At one point in NBA history individual scoring was not viewed as the benchmark for greatness. Playing the game like Bill Russell where the focus was solely on contributing to winning whether you scored or not was how pre 1980's basketball minds understood greatness. That's partially why players like Wes Unseld and Bill Walton were able to win MVP's (Finals and regular season) while never averaging even 20ppg. Read [URL="http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=EmMaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MyoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6402,3265566&dq=wilt+had+all+the+stats+and+personal+glory+but+bill+russell+won+the+championships+and+was+held+in+higher+esteem&hl=en"]this article[/URL] from 1979 about Kareem. Kareem was averaging a career low in points that season, but the story was that he was more valuable to his team that season than ever before. He was getting praised for contributing to his teammates scoring more as opposed to raising his scoring.
As to the 2nd paragraph, MJ's scoring only dipped a little because he was consumed with proving that a dominant scorer could win. He basically admits this in his Hall of Fame speech. Jordan "trusting his teammates" did not fundamentally change his role on the team. Even with trusting his teammates he was yet able to attempt more shots than everyone else in the league practically every full and healthy season of his career. A person's scoring is not supposed to dip that much when that's their approach to the game.
When Wilt modified his game his role totally changed where he was told to impact the game without concentrating on scoring. It was once felt that big men had an advantage over guards in being able to affect the game without having to score by anchoring a defense, controlling the backboard, and facilitating an offense from the high post.
To show you how the idea of greatness has changed over the generations I've seen several educated and informed people consider Wilt's '72 season one of his best ever despite avg. 14.8ppg in the regular season and 14.7 ppg in the playoffs.
[QUOTE=3LiftHeatCurse]------ copy paste from another site -----------
I've absolutely had it with the blind Wilt homerism and willful ignorance of the media. They are all textbook examples of people who look at the stats without placing them in the proper context, and I expect more from "professionals." Old school players like Kareem and Oscar don't know any better, so their ignorance is excusable, but not people who try to debate who the greatest players are.
Alas, I will take my shots at Kareem. First of all, that man's letter was one giant contradiction. Is he weighing total points or averages more heavily? I ask because he brings up Wilt's season averages to debunk the notion MJ is the best scorer ever, in the same letter that he not so subtly emphasizes the fact that he's the all-time leader in points scored.
Let's keep perspective here, Kareem. Or did you just happen to overlook the fact Jordan has a higher career, playoff and finals scoring average than Wilt while also accumulating more Playoff points than you and claiming the record you once held, in considerably less games?
Enough said there.
Going back to Wilt, why don't people call out this man for being the ultimate stat padder? He refused to play defense with five fouls, because of his having never fouled out in a game his entire career. He aggressively gave up perfectly good quality shots to pass the ball excessively, just to prove he could pass. In his 100 point game, his teammates were intentionally fouling the other team so that Wilt could have more possessions.
Why do we praise this as an example of all-time greatness? For example, I keep hearing about Wilt's 50 PPG season average over and over and over, but I never hear people mention the fact he took 40 shots to get those 50 points. To put it in perspective, since that's so important to Kareem, when Jordan averaged 37 PPG, he did so on 28 shots, and in my opinion, against much more competition than Wilt, with rules that favored his defender.
Do people really think a Jordan, Kobe or Shaq couldn't rack up close to 50 point averages in their prime, if they literally took 40 or more shots per game?. Wilt was the epitome of a statpadding ballhog, and the reason Jordan or Kobe never did that is because it's not winning basketball, and Wilt's lack of success in the post-season and against Bill Russell is a testament to that.
Why doesn't he have 50 PPG averages in the post-season? Why doesn't he lead in points in the post-season? Where did all his glorious stats go on the biggest stages? Oh, that's right. Wilt was all about me until the lights shined brightest and he pulled a Houdini on his team mates. Hell, Wilt wasn't even very efficient for a big man; he barely cracked 50% shooting in that 50 PPG season, whereas Shaq has had 58-60% averages for his entire career.
Wilt was such a selfish, choking statpadder, that there were teams who did not want him on their team in his prime. Can you imagine anyone not wanting a Prime Jordan or Prime Shaq if the option was available? Hell no.
To be perfectly honest, Wilt doesn't crack my top five list, and that's because he doesn't deserve it. He's easily one of the greatest athletes to have ever played his game, and it's wrong to hold his level of competition against him--to a degree--but why are we rewarding selfish statpadding so much? Wilt has accumulated the most meaningless, fraudulent statistics in NBA History, and it's a shame to the game of basketball that he is often mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan by old ignoramuses like Kareem who have no business trying to make informed analysis on other great players.
For the record, Kareem is the second best player of all time on my list. Doesn't make him any less wrong, however.[/QUOTE]
I don't know what's worse. The content of this garbage or the fact that you copied it from another site.
This argument that the reason for his huge playoff ppg drop (30.1 to 22.5) was because he became more focused on defense and stopped being the primary scorer later on in his career doesn't even make sense. He did the same thing in the regular season too. From '60-'66 Wilt averaged over 33 ppg every regular season. From '66-'73 he never averaged more than 25 ppg in a regular season. Meaning he changed his role in the regular season too, not just in the playoffs.
Even if you look at his scoring prime and compare the regular season and playoff stats you will see a huge decline.
Wilt '60-'66 Regular season ppg: 39.6
Wilt '60-'66 Postseason ppg: 32.8
6.8 ppg drop-off, which is almost the same as his career 7.6 ppg drop-off.
[QUOTE=Deuce Bigalow]This argument that the reason for his huge playoff ppg drop (30.1 to 22.5) was because he became more focused on defense and stopped being the primary scorer later on in his career doesn't even make sense. He did the same thing in the regular season too. From '60-'66 Wilt averaged over 33 ppg every regular season. From '66-'73 he never averaged more than 25 ppg in a regular season. Meaning he changed his role in the regular season too, not just in the playoffs.
Even if you look at his scoring prime and compare the regular season and playoff stats you will see a huge decline.
Wilt '60-'66 Regular season ppg: 39.6
Wilt '60-'66 Postseason ppg: 32.8
6.8 ppg drop-off, which is almost the same as his career 7.6 ppg drop-off.[/QUOTE]
The ratio of playoff games he played while playing his different roles is not congruent with the ratio of regular season games he played while playing his different roles.
For example:
50% of his career playoff games were played as a defensive anchor in his 30's
But only 33% of his career regular season games were played as that defensive anchor role in his 30's.
This skews his cumulative career vs regular season career stats immensely. It's not difficult to understand.
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]The ratio of playoff games he played while playing his different roles is not congruent with the ratio of regular season games he played while playing his different roles.
For example:
50% of his career playoff games were played as a defensive anchor in his 30's
But only 33% of his career regular season games were played as that defensive anchor role in his 30's.
This skews his cumulative career vs regular season career stats immensely. It's not difficult to understand.[/QUOTE]
He dropped off in the playoffs immensely during his scoring prime. That is a fact that I already posted. He dropped off in his scoring years and in his defensive anchor years. I guess the old adage is once a choker, always a choker.
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][IMG]http://kommein.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/For-Dummies.gif[/IMG]
His playoff games played with his 3 different team roles were disproportionate in frequency relative to his regular season career stats.
[B]Wilt played 24 playoff games as the teams dedicated volume scorer...[/B]
[CODE]Season Age Tm Lg [B]G[/B] MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS [B]FG%[/B] 3P% FT% MP [B]PTS[/B] [B]TRB[/B] [B]AST[/B]
1959-60 23 PHW NBA 9 415 125 252 49 110 232 19 17 299 .496 .445 46.1 33.2 25.8 2.1
1960-61 24 PHW NBA 3 144 45 96 21 38 69 6 10 111 .469 .553 48.0 37.0 23.0 2.0
1961-62 25 PHW NBA 12 576 162 347 96 151 319 37 27 420 .467 .636 48.0 35.0 26.6 3.1
[B]Combined[/B] NBA [B]24[/B] 1135 332 695 166 299 620 62 54 830 [B].478[/B] .555 47.3 [B]34.6[/B] [B]25.8[/B] [B]2.6[/B]
[/CODE]
[B]
Wilt played 56 playoff games as a high-post playmaker and balanced defensive/offensive anchor.[/B]
[CODE]
Season Age Tm Lg [B]G[/B] MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS [B]FG%[/B] 3P% FT% MP [B]PTS TRB AST[/B]
1963-64 27 SFW NBA 12 558 175 322 66 139 302 39 27 416 .543 .475 46.5 34.7 25.2 3.3
1964-65 28 PHI NBA 11 536 123 232 76 136 299 48 29 322 .530 .559 48.7 29.3 27.2 4.4
1965-66 29 PHI NBA 5 240 56 110 28 68 151 15 10 140 .509 .412 48.0 28.0 30.2 3.0
1966-67 30 PHI NBA 15 718 132 228 62 160 437 135 37 326 .579 .388 47.9 21.7 29.1 9.0
1967-68 31 PHI NBA 13 631 124 232 60 158 321 85 29 308 .534 .380 48.5 23.7 24.7 6.5
[B]Combined[/B] NBA [B] 56[/B] 2683 610 1124 292 661 1510 322 132 1512 [B].543[/B] .441 47.9 [B]27.0[/B] [B]26.9[/B] [B]5.8[/B]
[/CODE]
[B]Wilt played 80 playoff games as defensive anchor and an [I]opportunistic[/I] scorer.[/B]
[CODE]
Season Age Tm Lg [B]G[/B] MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS [B]FG%[/B] 3P% FT% MP [B]PTS TRB AST[/B]
1968-69 32 LAL NBA 18 832 96 176 58 148 444 46 46 250 .545 .392 46.2 13.9 24.7 2.6
1969-70 33 LAL NBA 18 851 158 288 82 202 399 81 42 398 .549 .406 47.3 22.1 22.2 4.5
1970-71 34 LAL NBA 12 554 85 187 50 97 242 53 33 220 .455 .515 46.2 18.3 20.2 4.4
1971-72 35 LAL NBA 15 703 80 142 60 122 315 49 47 220 .563 .492 46.9 14.7 21.0 3.3
1972-73 36 LAL NBA 17 801 64 116 49 98 383 60 48 177 .552 .500 47.1 10.4 22.5 3.5
[B]Combined[/B] NBA [B] 80[/B] 3741 483 909 299 667 1783 289 216 1265 [B].531[/B] .448 46.7 [B]15.8 22.3 3.6[/B]
[/CODE]
A whopping [I]50 percent[/I] of his career [B]playoff games[/B] are played from the age of 32-36, as a defensive anchor.
Where as only [I]32 percent[/I] of his career [B]regular season[/B] games are played from that same age with that same role.
Basically, career playoff and career regular season stats should not be compared directly w/o an understanding of differences like this. Season to season is a better gauge, or simply using the stats I calculated above and comparing them with his regular season stats from the seasons played with that same team-role.[/QUOTE]
Even in the three seasons in which he was the team's "dedicated volume scorer", he still had a fairly significant ppg drop-off from the regular season to the playoffs...
[QUOTE=LoneyROY7]Even in the three seasons in which he was the team's "dedicated volume scorer", he still had a fairly significant ppg drop-off from the regular season to the playoffs...[/QUOTE]
No shame there, he was going up against prime Bill Russell and the Celtics dynasty the majority of those playoff games. Remember, it was only best of 5 in the first round, best of 7 once he faced the Celtics. That team and Bill Russell held him under his normal regular season numbers during the regular season too, not just the playoffs.
nba needs to release video footage of wilt to dvd. i know they got it. figuratively f[B]u[/B]ck stern.
[QUOTE=MiseryCityTexas]nba needs to release video footage of wilt to dvd. i know they got it. figuratively f[B]u[/B]ck stern.[/QUOTE]
They don't have much if anything that hasn't already been shown in some documentary form or another. That said here's some clips of Wilt in his prime - I'm prepping for a prime Wilt highlight reel.
[url]http://youtu.be/exvv6EqawL4?t=44s[/url]
Good thread bump
So in simple terms, how did Wilt go from a guy who averaged 50 points in one season, and a career 30 point scorer into a 19ppg finals performer??
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]No shame there, he was going up against prime Bill Russell and the Celtics dynasty the majority of those playoff games. Remember, it was only best of 5 in the first round, best of 7 once he faced the Celtics. That team and Bill Russell held him under his normal regular season numbers during the regular season too, not just the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Oh, come on.
You guys are always making such a big deal out of Bill Russell defending Wilt in the playoffs.
First and most important, the defense was just not as good as you like to claim, if you watch the footage Wilt is being guarded by Russell alone almost every single time. In fact, I have heard you guys talk about the crazy defense he faced but the defensive schemes are no where to be found and he is beign guarded single handedly almost every time unless his own team spread the floor poorly.
Guys like Shaq and Olajuwon faced much tougher defense and you didn't see guys like them drop in terms of scoring and FG%.