Lol at guys making exceptions for Reggie.
"Reggie is more clutch."
"Reggie did what Ray is doing first."
GTFO. Ray > Reggie
/thread
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Lol at guys making exceptions for Reggie.
"Reggie is more clutch."
"Reggie did what Ray is doing first."
GTFO. Ray > Reggie
/thread
It's close to me and many people are selling Reg short.
Dude was one of the most clever players ever.
[QUOTE=I<3NBA]well just saying "your reasoning was faulty so i don't have to goddamn rationalize my argument" is a bigger stupidity. anyone can just say that, puff up his chest, and feel good he made an argument. but lol.[/QUOTE]
I made no argument. I demonstrated the glaring flaw in that guy reasoning. THat's what I did. Next time he should just not make such obvious faults.
And it's good that i didn't write what you wrote in your quote I guess. :oldlol:
Reggie
Ray has never been the #1 guy on any of his teams.
I'm going with Reggie...Reggie has more clutch moments than just the Knicks...The Bucks, Sixers, Bulls, Nets, have all been his bitch at one point...He basically was the only reason they had a chance against NJ that year...he was super clutch....how about donning the superman shirt against the Bucks and then going out and dropping 40?...there's more too...
Ray Allen = Poor man's Reggie Miller.
[QUOTE=swi7ch]Reggie
Ray has never been the #1 guy on any of his teams.[/QUOTE]
F*CK how could we forget Ray got to play with the HOF front court of Jerome James and Reggie Evans while in Seattle
Either people don't remember or didn't watch REggie play.
There's certain aspects that Ray is better at no doubt about that. But people always have the misconception that Reggie was solely a catch and shoot player, when he wasn't.
I mentioned this on another thread and I'll mention this again (specially since this thread is made because of me).
The way Kobe's offensive game has evolved into, is very similar to how Reggie played.
Tons of step backs, up and unders, curls, fadeaways, pull ups, etc.etc.
Obviously, Kobe is the better player but their offensive game isn't as apart as some would think. What made Reggie such a dangerous scorer was his shot which you had to respect. He had a very quick trigger and had a high release point that made it difficult to challenge. And although he was skinny, he had amazing stamina for a player his size. He could post you up better than most players today and was still very dangerous with the ball in his hands because he was smart/crafty and had good footwork (UCLA old school). While his defense wasn't Payton level, he was tough and had long arms (he was also anchored by a great front court).
As far as who would you take in your team? that's a toss up depending on your team's needs. Ray is more athletic and a better playmaker. Then again, Reggie was never really asked to be a playmaker, so honestly we don't really know how well he could've been as a playmaker.
But in today's game, with today's rules and style of play, Reggie's game would shine even more than it did because the entire environment caters to him.
You have multiple players on teams shooting 3-5 3pt shots per game, this was unheard of back then. He was also smart enough to know how to penetrate and get to the line. One of the 'flopping' godfathers, he'd be averaging around 9-11 FTA per game.
And like some may have already mentioned, Reggie's intangibles may take him over the edge over Ray. Along with Reggie's better post up game.
[QUOTE=pauk]Pleeeeeasssee.... for Ray Allens game/gamestyle to exist there had to be Reggie Miller and hence Reggie Miller has to come first, he is the ORIGINAL.. the best one....
Ray has said (and Rip Hamilton) multiple times that he patterned his game after Reggie, that he "stole" all Reggies moves especially of the ball movement, screen tricks, how to get open and so on... Reggie was by extremly far the best of the ball/screen abusing/catch n shoot player in basketball history, Michael Jordan has said that to... you will never see somebody as good as him in that department, he had so many tricks up his sleeve to get open, running around and around like a marathon runner, grabbing his own teammate who set the screen to lever himself around him at the opposite side, hesitating all over the court between the screens/players in and out, left, right, up, down, spin, flop, spin, frustrate you, using your own teammates as screens, exhaust you, spit at you, hit a J over and over, trashtalk and so on... it was freakin scientific, it was ART watching him work without the ball...
There is a reason Kobe said: "[I]Reggie is the hardest player i ever had to guard[/I]".. and that says alot considering he did guard Michael Jordan aswell..
For you who say Ray Allen was a more complete player, watch some of Reggies games when he was in his athletic prime from 1987-1992, you know, the fade Reggie... he was very quick, fast, deceptive, dunking on everybody, creating his own baskets over and over and was a better man to man defender than Ray Allen during that time aswell....
Reggie was also a MUCH better clutch player, Ray Allen is great in that department, but what Reggie did was matched ONLY by Michael Jordan & Larry Bird..........
Last but not least, when talking about shooting... Reggie was a better shooter because Reggie was a much more versatile shooter, he had a better shooting arsenal....... Ray Allen is more of a set shooter/standstill shooter, with that i mean he is not comfortable taking of balance shots, infact Ray Allen is a very bad of balance shooter (notice that next time you see him play during any time of his career).......... Ray Allen wants to go straight UP and shoulders/body faced towards the rim at all times when he shoots during any situation......... but Reggie? [B][COLOR="Red"]Reggie basically made his shots at that ridicilous percentage from any god damn range taking Kobe Bryant / Michael Jordan type of fadeaway/of balance shots.... Reggie made his shots however you wanted it, runners, floaters, hooks, left handed-right handed, skoops, you name it....
[/COLOR][/B]
This is for the same exact reason Larry Bird was also a better shooter than Ray Allen.......[/QUOTE]
Most people forget or don't know this.
They mad he was a more versatile scorer then Bron, Wade and Durant. Possibly only Kobe today is a more skilled and multi dimensional scorer.
[QUOTE=rodman91]Reggie Miller was natural born killer. He was still killing it at old age. He was 34 years old when he led his team to finals. 24 ppg during playoffs including 24.3 ppg in finals.
He killed Ray Allen in 2000 playoffs in 5th game (back then it was 5 game series)
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eOuUO0lif4[/url]
Reggie : 41 points (%60)
Allen: 18 points (%27)
Pacers : 3 Bucks : 2[/QUOTE]
ONLY Kobe, Melo (to some degree) and perhaps Durant could do some of the stuff he did in that vid.
Rip and Ray are good using the screens and moving without the ball, but don't have the same game with the ball. Ray is more explosive to the rim, but can't hit you up with all those jab steps and post game (mainly cause he was smaller).
[QUOTE=KayHaven]F*CK how could we forget Ray got to play with the HOF front court of Jerome James and Reggie Evans while in Seattle[/QUOTE]
Lol...Ray Allen never carried a team like Reggie did, nor does he have the clutch playoff moments.....Ray Allen may have been more well rounded in terms of athleticism, but lets quit acting like Ray Allen was somehow better than Reggie.....90% of this board saw 30+ year old Reggie....cuz dude would go to the hole and create his own shot on the regular....not many better one dribble, create space pull up jumper guys then Reggie
[QUOTE=Go Getter]He was the man on some pretty poor Sonics/Bucks teams though.[/QUOTE]
No, that's not true at all. The '00-'01 Bucks almost played for the championship. They had that epic 7-game series against AI and the Sixers in the EC Finals. It was classic, Ray and AI going back and forth.
In '04-'05, the Sonics went six games in the second round with the eventual champion Spurs.
In '98-'99 and '99-'00, the Bucks at least made the playoffs, but didn't make it past the first round.
That's three respectable years, and one potential championship year. Not that I think they would have taken the Lakers, but still..... can't say they were a "poor team".
Ray allen is just as clutch as Reggie Miller.
[QUOTE=andgar923]ONLY Kobe, Melo (to some degree) and perhaps Durant could do some of the stuff he did in that vid.
Rip and Ray are good using the screens and moving without the ball, but don't have the same game with the ball. Ray is more explosive to the rim, but can't hit you up with all those jab steps and post game (mainly cause he was smaller).[/QUOTE]
No one from the 90's is better than these guys current heroes....its a Damn shame when Kobe says just 2 years ago at his camp on video, that Reggie Miller was the hardest guy he's ever had to guard, because how crafty he is and how he creates foul calls....yet that was past ur prime Reggie he faced...somehow on ISH...no way u can be better in ur prime years.....oops my bad only there current heroes are better in there prime....Reggie was not better at 24-28 and how dare u believe that Reggie could avg 3 more points a game, in a league with more 3 point shooting and favorable perimeter rules:lol
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Ray allen is just as clutch as Reggie Miller.[/QUOTE]
Yeah ok
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Ray allen is just as clutch as Reggie Miller.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :oldlol: :roll:
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]Ray allen is just as clutch as Reggie Miller.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDSF8otJH8Y[/url]
[QUOTE=swi7ch]Reggie
Ray has never been the #1 guy on any of his teams.[/QUOTE]
I think he was the clear cut franchise player on his sonics team and lead them to the WCF in 2004-2005 Season.
From 2004-2007 Ray Averaged about 24-26PPG / 4RPG / 4APG
The next best player was Rashard Lewis who was a 22PPG/6RPG guy.
With the Bucks he you could argue he was the best.
Ray Allen- 21.8PPG / 4.5RPG / 3.8APG
Glenn Robinson - 20.7PPG / 6.2RPG
Sam Cassell - 19.7PPG / 4.2RPG / 6.7APG
Gary Payton 19.6PPG / 7.4APG
And back on to the topic, Ray>Reggie.
Ray is a more complete player.
[QUOTE=Calabis]Yeah ok[/QUOTE]
People are seriously selling Ray short in the clutch category. Reggie's last minute shots, particularly on the biggest stages like MSG, are more legendary, but Ray is plenty clutch.
If I'm on an opposing team, I don't want to see either of them going up for a shot in the last seconds.
We're not just talking last second shots...we're talking about being clutch through entire playoff series...multiple clutch shots in the same game...clutch sequences..I mean the guy dunks on the entire Nets team, sends the game to OT, hits a bank 3 to send it to double OT, I don't even remember the sequence, he was doing so much...
I dont understand why people are laughing at me. Allen is one of the clutchest players in NBA History. When it comes to last shots, he's just as scary as anyone who has ever played.
[QUOTE=RaininTwos]I dont understand why people are laughing at me. Allen is one of the clutchest players in NBA History. When it comes to last shots, he's just as scary as anyone who has ever played.[/QUOTE]
Ray Allen is clutch but Reggie is almost on Jordan/Bird level of clutchness...he's like right below them...Is Ray on that level of clutchness?
Reggie had a team greatly constructed around getting him off. There is nobody in the history of the game, that has had more screens set for him than Reggie. Given that advantage, I think its too hard to clearly say who is better. I would definitely say if a team used as much resources in getting Ray Allen off as the Pacers did for Reggie Miller it wouldn't be close.
Reggie was among the best clutch shooters ever. Ray Allen was very clutch and given his blazen close out game in the finals has a spot among the elite. Reggie wins here because of his uncanny ability to make it happen all the time.
Defense wise... Ray Allen in '08 is among the best defensive efforts ever by a shooting guard in the finals. Some of it was that he had KG behind him, but Reggie Miller played on a team that was consistently great in frontcourt help defense. Ray Allen has to be given the defensive edge.
To me Reggie held down a greater team offensive responsiblity to score as the primary option. The only argument to be made here would be that Pacers would frequently use all of their players to help get Reggie off or one could argue that the team truely eased the burden. Neither should have been primary options but pure shooters can and should be the key cog in secondary options and opening up the floor.
Creativity belongs to Ray Allen. He is the greater penetrator and could create his own shot. I remember when Bowen went on a two year humiliation tour of wing players. Ray Allen was the only player to light him up - amazingly he did it without picks. It was the most amazing jump shooting performance I ever seen. By contrast, I truly believe Bowen could have totally shut Reggie Miller down if screens weren't allowed. Ray was also a much better at putting the ball on the floor.
Ray Allen has had the more impressive career but Reggie had more star moments. I think Ray Allen would also be the better player to match-up with a great front court player (say Shaq). I think Ray Allen would have been one of the greatest support players for a great deep post player ever. Conceptually, I like a Ray Allen/Shaq combo as much as I like any other offensive combo.
[QUOTE=Dro]Ray Allen is clutch but Reggie is almost on Jordan/Bird level of clutchness...he's like right below them...Is Ray on that level of clutchness?[/QUOTE]
Ray and Reggie are both on that level of clutchness. In terms of last shots, you dont want any of those 4 getting anywhere NEAR the ball.
[QUOTE]
Possibly only Kobe today is a more skilled and multi dimensional scorer.
[/QUOTE]
So Reggie Miller is arguably a more well rounded/skilled scorer than Paul Pierce, Melo, and Durant? Reggie is more skilled than Steve Nash passing aside?
That what im being told?
[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]So Reggie Miller is arguably a more well rounded/skilled scorer than Paul Pierce, Melo, and Durant? Reggie is more skilled than Steve Nash passing aside?
That what im being told?[/QUOTE]
you're too old to know.
[QUOTE=Dro]Ray Allen is clutch but Reggie is almost on Jordan/Bird level of clutchness...he's like right below them...Is Ray on that level of clutchness?[/QUOTE]
Your'e funny. Pierce is way more clutch than Miller was.
Just watch Ray Ray 50pts game against the Bulls in second round 2009 .Better yet, watch the whole series he had like 10 OMG clutch shots in one series alone.
[QUOTE=CeltsGarlic]Just watch Ray Ray 50pts game against the Bulls in second round 2009 .Better yet, watch the whole series he had like 10 OMG clutch shots in one series alone.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I forgot about that.
[QUOTE=CeltsGarlic]Just watch Ray Ray 50pts game against the Bulls in second round 2009 .Better yet, watch the whole series he had like 10 OMG clutch shots in one series alone.[/QUOTE]
Idiots are gonna laugh at you.
[URL="http://youtu.be/poVuS0PAuu8"]http://youtu.be/poVuS0PAuu8[/URL]
Ray Allen
easy choice
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Ray wasn't that good or capable in those two aspects of the game but he was certainly better than Reggie at it.[/QUOTE]
You clearly didn't watch Ray as a Buck or his first few years in Seattle. He was more than capable of defending. Definitely better than most gave him credit for.
Ray Allen EASY. The only people picking Reggie are those trying to hold onto their childhood and be 100% bias.
[QUOTE=D.J.]You clearly didn't watch Ray as a Buck or his first few years in Seattle. He was more than capable of defending. Definitely better than most gave him credit for.[/QUOTE]
Totally, it sickens me how people underrate Ray's defense.
[QUOTE=D.J.]You clearly didn't watch Ray as a Buck or his first few years in Seattle. He was more than capable of defending. Definitely better than most gave him credit for.[/QUOTE]
I would call him an above average defender but not a good one.
[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]
Well, Ray's Bucks were pretty talented from '00-'02 when they had the big 3, plus another talented scorer in Tim Thomas coming off the bench, and they added Anthony Mason in '02, while Michael Redd was also becoming a scoring threat off the bench.[/QUOTE]
That is only 2-3 years and those teams probably still weren't as good as Reggie's Pacers. Reggie just had the flat out better team when they were in their primes and that can't be disputed.
Reggie Miller owned Ray Allen when it matters. :confusedshrug:
Reggie had 21 on 5/18 shooting, 10 points on 4/12, 34 on 13/27, 15 on 5/9, and 41 on 15/25 in that series. It was great for him. 4 games not really of note for a scorer and one really good one. But really...its a series Michael Redd can have and have nobody care. Melo just had games along those lines and had people conclude that hes barely even a star.
The standards for Reggie are so low for a guy with his level of notoriety. He has games [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQn4TlHEnw"]Ben Gordon can have[/URL] and its legendary shit heard about for 20 years.
Hes had some legit outstanding moments but really...a lot of them are because hes Reggie Miller not because the level of play was just insane.
His series vs Ray Allens Bucks could be had by Penny and never be mentioned again. Im not sure if ive ever seen Reggie better than Arenas vs the cavs in 06 or 07 or whatever. He ended up losing(partly due to missed FTs if I remember correctly) but Reggie lost 19 years in a row so its not like Reggie was closing people out to win the big series.
Reggies series vs the Bucks isnt really worth a mention in the careers of most top flight swingmen. Its hardly what id call an owning.
Not from a HOF player known for nothing but scoring.
Ray Allen. Not close. Dumb question. Kill yourself....... Snitch.
Reggie and not even close....
[QUOTE=atljonesbro]Ray Allen EASY. The only people picking Reggie are those trying to hold onto their childhood and be 100% bias.[/QUOTE]
What's funny is that I was a kid watching Miller during the 90's and I completely agree. It sucks to see people of my generation turning out like some of those older people and holding players from our childhood on some lofty perch that they don't deserve to be on. Ray Allen wins this one.