Was Scottie Pippen at least once robbed for Defensive Player of the Year?

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]The first team I watched and was a pseudo fan of before becoming a Clippers diehard in 98-99 was the Sonics. I was a huge Gary Payton fan. I was obviously young at the time though so I won't pretend to have experienced the Sonics on a mature, analytic level I do now when I watch footage/classic games etc.

So the answer is yes I was watching but may not have perceived things clearly or well. I didn't remember the campaigning you're talking about and that indeed is shameful. When I rank Payton at the top it has to do with footage I watch in comparison to what I saw of Pippen. I have often said they are pretty much equals and neck and neck. What people will NOT be able to convince me of though is that Payton has no case for the top spot. Maybe you don't agree he is the best perimeter defender ever but don't tell me he has no case (Angeleyes).[/QUOTE]

You're basing this off of old footage of Payton and Pippen when Pippen was doing they same things except on a greater variety of players with greater team results. He's probably the best defender at the point guard position I've ever seen (back when point guards were allowed to defend) but I don't see him having a logical case over Pippen/Jordan.

[B]He was Robbed when they Gave it To Mutombo...I Think It was 1995-96 When He hasd the Highest Defensive Rating as a SF and The Rest where PFs and Cs with Hight Defensive Ratings.

Yes he Was Robbed that Year[/B]

He had very valid cases in '94 and '95. I always felt got robbed of MVP in '94.

[QUOTE=D.J.]He had very valid cases in '94 and '95. [B]I always felt got robbed of MVP in '94.[/B][/QUOTE]

Over Olajuwon? :facepalm

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Over Olajuwon? :facepalm[/QUOTE]



Why not? Stats aren't everything. He took a Jordan-less team with Pete Myers starting at the 2 to 55 wins. Also remember the Bulls went 4-6 in the 10 games Pip missed. Give them an extra 3 wins with him playing and the Bulls are the #1 seed. People expected Houston to be up there. They won 55 games the prior year and were 1 win from the WCF. No one expected the Bulls to win 55 games that year or be 1 win from the ECF.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Ill give a specific year. 1995. He was the best defender in the league. And shouldve won it over mutombo.

He led the league in steals, the bulls were second in team defense. Mutombos nuggets were like 14th. He had the highest defensive rating. Made allnba first team defense and waas the leading vote getter. And the bulls had a better record than the nuggets.

The only thing mutombo had over pippen is blocks. And pippen avg 1a game too.[/QUOTE]
Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).

Clippersfan86 you don't know shit. Gary Payton the best perimeter defender of all time? He never had close to the impact that Pippen or Jordan had. Gary didn't even deserve that DPOY in 96 either, David Robinson did. In 1995 was the only legit season where an actual perimeter player (Scottie Pippen) actually deserved to be named DPOY and instead they gave it to Mutombo because he led the league in bpg.

[QUOTE=D.J.]Why not? Stats aren't everything. He took a Jordan-less team with Pete Myers starting at the 2 to 55 wins. Also remember the Bulls went 4-6 in the 10 games Pip missed. Give them an extra 3 wins with him playing and the Bulls are the #1 seed. People expected Houston to be up there. They won 55 games the prior year and were 1 win from the WCF. No one expected the Bulls to win 55 games that year or be 1 win from the ECF.[/QUOTE]
Doing it based on "expectations" just shows how flawed expectations were. Just because people didn't get how good Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Kerr and indeed Pippen could be and that the holdovers were capable of taking a larger share of the offense that doesn't make Pippen the best player in the league. And the Bulls weren't a legit 55 win team, their points differential was inicative of a team quality that should on average lead to a 50-32 record.

Team performance (in terms of win loss record) versus expectations has been this basis for the most dubious MVPs (Unseld, maybe Cowens, Iverson, maybe Nash, Rose). Just because prognosticators underestimated a teams talent, fit, coaching etc that doesn't mean the team's best player is deserving of the MVP.

[QUOTE=Owl]Doing it based on "expectations" just shows how flawed expectations were. Just because people didn't get how good Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, Kerr and indeed Pippen could be and that the holdovers were capable of taking a larger share of the offense that doesn't make Pippen the best player in the league. And the Bulls weren't a legit 55 win team, their points differential was inicative of a team quality that should on average lead to a 50-32 record.

Team performance (in terms of win loss record) versus expectations has been this basis for the most dubious MVPs (Unseld, maybe Cowens, Iverson, maybe Nash, Rose). Just because prognosticators underestimated a teams talent, fit, coaching etc that doesn't mean the team's best player is deserving of the MVP.[/QUOTE]


And it doesn't mean the guy with the best stats should be MVP either. Point differential doesn't play a role. They won 55 games, regardless of whether they should have won 50 games or 5 games. And if you want to talk about teammates, Olajuwon didn't play alone.

[QUOTE=D.J.]And it doesn't mean the guy with the best stats should be MVP either. Point differential doesn't play a role. They won 55 games, regardless of whether they should have won 50 games or 5 games. And if you want to talk about teammates, Olajuwon didn't play alone.[/QUOTE]
Points differential (and especially SRS) are more accurate indicators of a teams quality than wins (because they give more information than a binary won-loss). One proof of this is that they are better predictive of title winners.

If you don't think the list I gave was of some of the worst MVP awards given and if you think team record vs expectations is a good way to judge individual players then you should feel free to believe Pip deserved an MVP. Otherwise he just plain didn't, which doesn't mean he wasn't very good indeed.

[QUOTE=Owl]Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).[/QUOTE]

Pippen was a 98 to the Bulls teams overall 104.3, so what is your point? He was still more dominant in that aspect too as far as compared to Mutombo.

[QUOTE=Punpun]He fell to the hype machine that Jordan was. AKA[B], Jordan the ballhog stole a Dpoy from Pippen.[/B][/QUOTE]


You talking about the one in 1988 when Pippen was picking splinters out of his ass on the bench??

:coleman:

The thing is that Payton is probably the best pure man defender in NBA history. My opinion, at least on the perimeter.



Pippen and Jordan did more things on defense, and I think they were the two better defenders. But Gary Payton's defense puts Bruce Bowen, even with flying kicks, to shame.

Jordan and Pippen were pretty easily better defenders then Payton IMO. I feel like people that say otherwise must've not watched them play enough or they are doing what alot of people do here and pick the player that isn't nearly as talked about as much just cause they think its way too much to give even more credit to someone thats already praised so much like Jordan and Pippen.

No, he was never robbed. The best defenders in the league were Rodman from 90-96ish Mutumbo from 94ish-01 Zo during the late 90's and early 00's, and David Robinson in 99 (other years too, but I thought Robinson in 99 was especially fantastic). Hakeem can get thrown in during the early 90's too. I don't think there is a single year Pippen really has a case for being the best defender in the league. Not taking away from anything he did, but he was the second best defender on his team quite a few years during his prime.
EDIT: If we're talking about best perimeter defender though, he was probably from like 95-97, though Rodman was just as good and much more versatile. Payton was probably just as good in 96 and 97, though I think his impact was more in his full court defense then his halfcourt defense (not that his halfcourt wasn't good too)

[QUOTE=Smoke117]Pippen was a 98 to the Bulls teams overall 104.3, so what is your point? He was still more dominant in that aspect too as far as compared to Mutombo.[/QUOTE]
My point was (well read the post again, but to reiterate)
Defensive Rating is flawed as an individual measure. Especially for comparing players on different teams.
Your reference to Mutombo's team DRating was irrelevent, they were in the same ballpark for influence on their team, even if you do accept DRating on an individual level as being a very accurate tool.
Mutombo had statistical (blocks+steals total, defensive rebounds) and entangiable (intimidation) advantages.
Nonetheless I can see someone preferring Pip to Mutombo.

But I absolutely can't see Pip over (league leader in defensive win shares, incidentally) David Robinson.

Thats it repeated again. But this was all in the original message. What don't you get?

Pippen if anything is highly overrated these days. he should be thankful his legacy is greater in hindsight than it was when he was playing. to me he's one of the most overrated players in the 80's era of stars....

[QUOTE=Owl]Defensive rating is flawed at an individual level, I don't know that it splits credit between players properly.

Assuming it could split credit accurately your point could (and I would argue should) be reviewed in the reverse manner, Denver had Def Rating of 108.2 but Mutombo had 103 that is to say he was ahead of his team by better than 5 points per hundred plays. That puts him in the same ball park as Pippen. The total of his blocks and steals is above Pippen's and he adds intimidation and the league's fifth best defensive rebound %.

But I can see Pippen ahead Mutombo (or equal).

I can't see him above David Robinson though. Probably not over Olajuwon either for that matter (though Olajuwon missed 10 games so for that year, based on missing games you could have Pip ahead).[/QUOTE]
Why not over Robinson? Robinson had Dennis Rodman playing alongside him. What did Pippen have? His bigs were Will Perdue, Luc Longley, who missed half the season if i remember correct, Bill Wennington who was decent, Dickey Simpkins, Corie Blount, Larry Krystsowiak, and Toni Kukoc. How the bulls finishe second in the league in defense is a testament to Pippen. SECOND. None of the players i named should be considered defensive anchors.

And whats with this "intimidation" factor? The fact is the spurs finished ninth and the nuggets fourteenth in team defense, while the bulls finished second. So opposing offense werent too intimidated by the spurs and nuggets

What more could pippen have done?

[QUOTE=magnax1]No, he was never robbed. The best defenders in the league were Rodman from 90-96ish Mutumbo from 94ish-01 Zo during the late 90's and early 00's, and David Robinson in 99 (other years too, but I thought Robinson in 99 was especially fantastic). Hakeem can get thrown in during the early 90's too. I don't think there is a single year Pippen really has a case for being the best defender in the league. Not taking away from anything he did, but he was the second best defender on his team quite a few years during his prime.
EDIT: If we're talking about best perimeter defender though, he was probably from like 95-97, though Rodman was just as good and much more versatile. Payton was probably just as good in 96 and 97, though I think his impact was more in his full court defense then his halfcourt defense (not that his halfcourt wasn't good too)[/QUOTE]
He wasnt robbed in 95? And your post doesnt really make sense. We all know jordan was the best player from 87-98. He didnt deserve the mvp every one ofof those years

[QUOTE=Godzuki]Pippen if anything is highly overrated these days. he should be thankful his legacy is greater in hindsight than it was when he was playing. to me he's one of the most overrated players in the 80's era of stars....[/QUOTE]



:oldlol:

The question should ask, "Did Pippen deserve a DPOY"....maybe. Was he "robbed". NO...There were other guys deserving as well.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Why not over Robinson? Robinson had Dennis Rodman playing alongside him. What did Pippen have? His bigs were Will Perdue, Luc Longley, who missed half the season if i remember correct, Bill Wennington who was decent, Dickey Simpkins, Corie Blount, Larry Krystsowiak, and Toni Kukoc. How the bulls finishe second in the league in defense is a testament to Pippen. SECOND. None of the players i named should be considered defensive anchors.

And whats with this "intimidation" factor? The fact is the spurs finished ninth and the nuggets fourteenth in team defense, while the bulls finished second. So opposing offense werent too intimidated by the spurs and nuggets

What more could pippen have done?[/QUOTE]
I would ask why Pippen SHOULD be ahead of Robinson. Robinson is superior by defensive win shares, is superior statistically. Pippen's case is exclusively at the team level.

What is intimidation? Well, do you not know? Good shot blockers deter players from driving, alter shots without ever making contact with the ball, either by coming close to blocking or purely psychologically. Mark Eaton has suggested (something along the lines of) his being a better shot blocker when his numbers came down because he knew he was dettering players from taking shots, or driving when they otherwise would have. Elite wing or perimeter defenders may have a psychological effect to some extent (say the primes of Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Kirilenko and Payton), but they would not (unless as part of a team's trapping/pressing system) change an oppossing teams offense the way a dominant shot blocker can.

Players playing alongside them is a distraction from the issue of comparing two players, but for the record I would suggest Rodman was not the defender he had been in Detroit (more single-mindedly persuing rebounds, and whilst still regarded as an elite defender, because D is tough to measure the media often hail players as elite long after they drop off, a la Gary Payton). Furthermore, whilst Pippen played in an established defensive system with stable coaches (Bach had gone but his system was established), Robinson was once again adjusting to a new coach (Bob Hill who replaced John Lucas, who replaced Jerry Tarkanian who replaced Bob Bass, who replaced Larry Brown, note that this list does not include short term interim coaches).

The idea that intimidation played no part just because team defensive ratings were high (or higher) ignores the multiple other factors which affect defensive rating such as pace (which is nominally accounted for but faster paced teams, as San Antonio were, tend to have worse defensive ratings and better offensive ratings than slower paced teams), teammates and especially coaching.

What more could Pippen have done? Very little, it is simply the nature of basketball that a good defensive big man will have more impact than an equally able wing/perimeter player. Bigs can guard their man and protect the rim from other guys, perimeter guys tend to stick with their man, doubling occasionally. Pip might have been the closest thing to an exception because the Bulls trapping (illegal? zone?) defense allowed Pippen some freedom to roam, but not enough that he could impact the game like an elite shot blocker (who also notched a few steals).

better defender than Hakeem and Mutombo? nah

[QUOTE=Owl]I would ask why Pippen SHOULD be ahead of Robinson. Robinson is superior by defensive win shares, is superior statistically. Pippen's case is exclusively at the team level.

What is intimidation? Well, do you not know? Good shot blockers deter players from driving, alter shots without ever making contact with the ball, either by coming close to blocking or purely psychologically. Mark Eaton has suggested (something along the lines of) his being a better shot blocker when his numbers came down because he knew he was dettering players from taking shots, or driving when they otherwise would have. Elite wing or perimeter defenders may have a psychological effect to some extent (say the primes of Pippen, Jordan, Artest, Kirilenko and Payton), but they would not (unless as part of a team's trapping/pressing system) change an oppossing teams offense the way a dominant shot blocker can.

Players playing alongside them is a distraction from the issue of comparing two players, but for the record I would suggest Rodman was not the defender he had been in Detroit (more single-mindedly persuing rebounds, and whilst still regarded as an elite defender, because D is tough to measure the media often hail players as elite long after they drop off, a la Gary Payton). Furthermore, whilst Pippen played in an established defensive system with stable coaches (Bach had gone but his system was established), Robinson was once again adjusting to a new coach (Bob Hill who replaced John Lucas, who replaced Jerry Tarkanian who replaced Bob Bass, who replaced Larry Brown, note that this list does not include short term interim coaches).

The idea that intimidation played no part just because team defensive ratings were high (or higher) ignores the multiple other factors which affect defensive rating such as pace (which is nominally accounted for but faster paced teams, as San Antonio were, tend to have worse defensive ratings and better offensive ratings than slower paced teams), teammates and especially coaching.

What more could Pippen have done? Very little, it is simply the nature of basketball that a good defensive big man will have more impact than an equally able wing/perimeter player. Bigs can guard their man and protect the rim from other guys, perimeter guys tend to stick with their man, doubling occasionally. Pip might have been the closest thing to an exception because the Bulls trapping (illegal? zone?) defense allowed Pippen some freedom to roam, but not enough that he could impact the game like an elite shot blocker (who also notched a few steals).[/QUOTE]
This whole post is contradictory Owl. You want to give credit to Robinson for his role in a defensive scheme but dismiss Pippens. Even suggesting that what pippen did was illegal? I hope you understand that what your doing is giving credit to robinson based on TEAM DEFENSE. But you want to dismiss Pippens role and thecompetiton Bulls being second in team defense as a Team accompplishment but fail to realize that robinson blocked shot based on his role on the Spurs defense.

Make no mistake, players like Robinson accumulate a large portion of their blocks based on the defensive scheme. The perimeter players funnel their man to their teams shotblocker. Rarely do players block the shots of the man theyre defending. Pippens role on the Bulls was much bigger. Due to personnel, jackson leaned heavily on pippen defensively. The bulls defensive scheme was to try to chew up the oppositions shot clock by pressuring the PG and then trapping. The theory was that by doing this, the opposiition would only have 1 chance to run a play, late in the shotclock. Pippen would pick up the PG at full court, then trap at halfcourt, then play man defense (often on the oppositons best perimeter scorer) then help out on the post. All robinson had to do was block shots.

And my point is that what pippen did was so strenuous that i feel he more than deserved the dpoy award due to the success of the teams defense was due to pippen. Especially considering that the bulls roster was filled with bad to mediocre defenders.

I also feel the amount of coaches robinson had shouldnt matter, i doubt very seriously that any of those coaches would stray from the defensive scheme of funneling to robinson.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]This whole post is contradictory Owl. You want to give credit to Robinson for his role in a defensive scheme but dismiss Pippens. Even suggesting that what pippen did was illegal? I hope you understand that what your doing is giving credit to robinson based on TEAM DEFENSE. But you want to dismiss Pippens role and thecompetiton Bulls being second in team defense as a Team accompplishment but fail to realize that robinson blocked shot based on his role on the Spurs defense.

Make no mistake, players like Robinson accumulate a large portion of their blocks based on the defensive scheme. The perimeter players funnel their man to their teams shotblocker. Rarely do players block the shots of the man theyre defending. Pippens role on the Bulls was much bigger. Due to personnel, jackson leaned heavily on pippen defensively. The bulls defensive scheme was to try to chew up the oppositions shot clock by pressuring the PG and then trapping. The theory was that by doing this, the opposiition would only have 1 chance to run a play, late in the shotclock. Pippen would pick up the PG at full court, then trap at halfcourt, then play man defense (often on the oppositons best perimeter scorer) then help out on the post. All robinson had to do was block shots.

And my point is that what pippen did was so strenuous that i feel he more than deserved the dpoy award due to the success of the teams defense was due to pippen. Especially considering that the bulls roster was filled with bad to mediocre defenders.

I also feel the amount of coaches robinson had shouldnt matter, i doubt very seriously that any of those coaches would stray from the defensive scheme of funneling to robinson.[/QUOTE]
No I credited Robinson for helping on other men. Not a defensive scheme.
Obviously all defense is played at a team level but Robinson was simply playing the role all good defensive bigs do, helping and blocking shots. Occasionally there would be funnelling but usually guys don't deliberately allow their man to pass them by.

As to the legality of the defense
"To The Brink" by Michael Lewis: p268-271: Discussion of Pippen roaming from nominal coverage of Greg Ostertag and whether or not it was legal
I could go through other books and direct you to other debates on whether the Bulls D was actually legal or not if you want.

I think the Bull's themselves on their whiteboard in their lockerroom wrote that it was "barely legal". The Bulls D was notorious, it was very good and it was also controversial in terms of whether they were playing a one man zone.

Pippen's role was strenuous. But strenuousness isn't a measure of effectiveness. Myers, Harper, Longley, Perdue were, I would suggest above average. Armstrong (specifically around that time) was considered not bad too. Plus they got some games out of Jordan. I can dig up the Rick Barry scouting report book if you really think that Bulls team was packed with average or below defenders.

And your argument on funnelling and coaching not mattering, even if it were correct and led to all his blocks fails to account for the the huge steal numbers that Robinson put up for a center. Though to be honest given you seem to value (and more questionably, measure individuals through) team defense so much I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't think coaching matters on the defensive end (I believe it does, quite significantly).

Pippen is one of the all-time great wing defenders, and Robinson Pippen is an interesting defensive comparison as they both shot up early in college and retained their quickness and both contributed blocks and steals. But if I can get blocks and steals and elite athleticism and I get to pick it from 6'8 small forward or a 7'1 center and the center's stats are better (and if looking over a longer period of their careers, the center has once led the league in blocks and finished top 5 in steals) and (less important to me) he has higher defensive win shares, and all Pippen has is the lower defensive rating (which as stated before I'm not convinced is a great measure at the individual level) then I'll take Robinson.

[QUOTE=Owl]No I credited Robinson for helping on other men. Not a defensive scheme.
Obviously all defense is played at a team level but Robinson was simply playing the role all good defensive bigs do, helping and blocking shots. Occasionally there would be funnelling but usually guys don't deliberately allow their man to pass them by.

As to the legality of the defense
"To The Brink" by Michael Lewis: p268-271: Discussion of Pippen roaming from nominal coverage of Greg Ostertag and whether or not it was legal
I could go through other books and direct you to other debates on whether the Bulls D was actually legal or not if you want.

I think the Bull's themselves on their whiteboard in their lockerroom wrote that it was "barely legal". The Bulls D was notorious, it was very good and it was also controversial in terms of whether they were playing a one man zone.

Pippen's role was strenuous. But strenuousness isn't a measure of effectiveness. Myers, Harper, Longley, Perdue were, I would suggest above average. Armstrong (specifically around that time) was considered not bad too. Plus they got some games out of Jordan. I can dig up the Rick Barry scouting report book if you really think that Bulls team was packed with average or below defenders.

And your argument on funnelling and coaching not mattering, even if it were correct and led to all his blocks fails to account for the the huge steal numbers that Robinson put up for a center. Though to be honest given you seem to value (and more questionably, measure individuals through) team defense so much I find it difficult to believe you genuinely don't think coaching matters on the defensive end (I believe it does, quite significantly).

Pippen is one of the all-time great wing defenders, and Robinson Pippen is an interesting defensive comparison as they both shot up early in college and retained their quickness and both contributed blocks and steals. But if I can get blocks and steals and elite athleticism and I get to pick it from 6'8 small forward or a 7'1 center and the center's stats are better (and if looking over a longer period of their careers, the center has once led the league in blocks and finished top 5 in steals) and (less important to me) he has higher defensive win shares, and all Pippen has is the lower defensive rating (which as stated before I'm not convinced is a great measure at the individual level) then I'll take Robinson.[/QUOTE]
Funneling doesnt imply that the perimeter defender ALLOW the ball handler to go past him deliberately. The idea is that its virtually impossible to stay in front of a ball handler so if he does drive, be sure he goes the way the defense wants him to go. And i never saiid coaching doesnt matter. But i fail to see why a coaching change would be brought into this argument when they most likely wouldnt change the defensive strategy. Besides, there wasntt a coaching change for the spurs in 95. So thats a moot point.

I dont see how youu could say pippens contributions didnt net the desired result. They were second in team defense. Obviously the whole team played a role in that accomplishment, but the fact is none of those player outside of pippen were considered even good defenders. Or at least of the players that saw considerable time. Harper barely played cuz he just couldnt pick up the offense that first season. Longley only played half the season and he didnt play very many minutes either due to injuries. So outside of pippen, his next two best defenders were myers and perdue. Both of them were serviceable man defenders, but more known as hustlers and scrappers. Armstrong was never considered much of a defender, as for the rest? You wanna talk about musical chairs? The bulls had five different players start at power forward in kukoc, krystowiak, a rookie in dimpkins, another rookie in blount, and perdue. And four different centers in perdue, wennington, foster, and longley. Out of that group, only Longley, Perdue, and Wennington could be considered decent defnders. But none of them should be considered defensive anchors. Seeing as how you put so much stock and credit defense to bigs, id think youd see how dominant pippen was defensively in 95.

Pippen finished 2nd in defensive of the year voting from 1994 to 1996. Many people thought that he should have been the DPOY in 1996.

He had cases several years but 95' was the most egregious IMO. The Bulls had the #2 defense with no Grant, Rodman, and no Jordan for 80% of the season. Denver had the #14 defense but Mutumbo was given the DPOY by lazy voters enamored with blocks over more subtle team defense on the perimeter that Pippen provided.

[QUOTE=Lebron23;13993670]Pippen finished 2nd in defensive of the year voting from 1994 to 1996. Many people thought that he should have been the DPOY in 1996.[/QUOTE]

Pippen definitely should've win the DPOY Award in 1995.

Where are Pippen's legendary defensive plays like MJ, lebron or tayshaun has?

Where are his signature shut-downs as the primary defender?

Why did the Bulls only rank 7th defensively for the 1st three-peat?? And worse than 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents?

The answer to these questions is are the same - Pippen is a vastly overrated defender

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13993684]He had cases several years but 95' was the most egregious IMO. The Bulls had the #2 defense with no Grant, Rodman, and no Jordan for 80% of the season. Denver had the #14 defense but Mutumbo was given the DPOY by lazy voters enamored with blocks over more subtle team defense on the perimeter that Pippen provided.[/QUOTE]

I think Pippens outburts like sitting out and throwing that chair hurt his overall NBA Market ability. Mutombo was being touted as the next Bill Russell at that time. If Pip hadn't done that, they might've awarded him the DPOY. Pippens career came at a time where great Centers were plentiful. I so wish he could played today. With todays style and the evolution of the game to being more perimeter oriented, he would've had at least won 2 DPOY while averaging 24/9/8. Maybe even an MVP. And that's with him playing alongside Jordan.

.
[INDENT]DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)[/INDENT]


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender [B]AT THE TIME[/B], and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s][B]NBA[/B][/url]) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13993703]I think Pippens outburts like sitting out and throwing that chair hurt his overall NBA Market ability. Mutombo was being touted as the next Bill Russell at that time. If Pip hadn't done that, they might've awarded him the DPOY. Pippens career came at a time where great Centers were plentiful. I so wish he could played today. With todays style and the evolution of the game to being more perimeter oriented, he would've had at least won 2 DPOY while averaging 24/9/8. Maybe even an MVP. And that's with him playing alongside Jordan.[/QUOTE]

Good points. I think there was a big bias towards centers and blocks back then. Jordan and Payton bucked the trends but Jordan was the NBA golden child and Payton won in a year where Bulls' won MVP, COY, and 6th man so Pippen getting DPOY would have been a clean sweep.

Pippen also was hurt in 94' in both DPOY and MVP by missing 10 games early in the year due to injury. Can you imagine his MVP case if the Bulls won the #1 seed without MJ?

[QUOTE=3ball;13993699]Where are Pippen's legendary defensive plays like MJ, lebron or tayshaun has?

Where are his signature shut-downs as the primary defender?

Why did the Bulls only rank 7th defensively for the 1st three-peat?? And worse than 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents?

The answer to these questions is are the same - Pippen is a vastly overrated defender[/QUOTE]

91 Finals game 2 vs Magic
92 Finals when he shut down Drexler in game 6
98 Finals Game 4
98 ECF when he shut down Mark Jackson
As far as plays?
The multiple game saving blocks on Charles Smith

The game saving steal vs the Jazz in 97 that won the Bulls the Chip

The Block vs Danny Ainge to save Game 4 of the 93 NBA Finals. To name a few.

[QUOTE=3ball;13993708].
[INDENT]DPOY VOTING

1988.... MJ (1st).... Pip (none)
1989.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1990.... MJ (5th).... Pip (none)
1991.... MJ (7th).... Pip (7th)
1992.... MJ (3rd).... Pip (3rd)
1993.... MJ (2nd)... Pip (none)
1996.... MJ (5th).... Pip (2nd)
1997.... MJ (5th).... Pip (4th)
1998.... MJ (4th).... Pip (9th)[/INDENT]


^^^^ MJ was clearly considered the better defender [B]AT THE TIME[/B], and Pippen's defensive capabilities have been vastly overrated by revisionist historians since... :confusedshrug:... the dpoy voting and various other sources (like the [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s][B]NBA[/B][/url]) confirm the actual sentiment at the time (that MJ was the Bulls' best defender)

the reason for the revisionist history is simple: when new fans (including media) first heard about MJ's 6 rings, they looked up his roster and didn't see the star-laden cast they expected, or great stats from a sidekick.... so they concluded that Pippen's defense offset the lack of star power or good offensive stats - but this is simply ignorance about what was actually happening at the time

the reality is that the 1st three-peat Bulls were only ranked 7th defensively, so many guys had better defensive help than MJ, including Clyde's Blazers and 4 of 6 ECF/Finals opponents[/QUOTE]

What about 94 and 95?

1995 Pippen was robbed for sure. That was the greatest defensive season ever for a wing player. Anchored Bulls to the #2 ranked defense despite having three worse than average defenders leading the team in minutes (Kukoc, BJ, Steve Kerr) and an out of shape Michael Jordan playing just 18 games.

I'm one of those guys that thinks it's a joke when perimeter players get DPOY as they never actually deserve them. Like Gary Payton? If we're talking about impact he wasn't even close to top 10. The DPOY of the year in 96 should have been David Robinson. Pippen was 2 in voting, but he shouldn't have won either. David Robinson basically had the Spurs at 3 on defense all by himself. You know how that's true? When he played 8 games in 97 they dropped to DEAD LAST. Having said that, Scottie Pippen actually DID deserve the DPOY in 95. He carried the bulls defense like no perimeter player ever had. Jordan and Grant were the other 2 best defensive players on Bulls during the first threepeat and he had neither and he had them at 2nd in defense while putting up 3spg and a block. He also led the league in drating. Of course, they gave it to Mutombo who averaged a lot of blocks despite the Nuggets being 13th in defense. It was a complete joke. It becomes an even bigger joke when weaker defenders like Payton and Artest were given the DPOY.

[QUOTE]1995 Pippen was robbed for sure. That was the greatest defensive season ever for a wing player. Anchored Bulls to the #2 ranked defense despite having three worse than average defenders leading the team in minutes (Kukoc, BJ, Steve Kerr) and an out of shape Michael Jordan playing just 18 games.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13993732]91 Finals game 2 vs Magic
92 Finals when he shut down Drexler in game 6
98 Finals Game 4
98 ECF when he shut down Mark Jackson
As far as plays?
The multiple game saving blocks on Charles Smith

The game saving steal vs the Jazz in 97 that won the Bulls the Chip

The Block vs Danny Ainge to save Game 4 of the 93 NBA Finals. To name a few.[/QUOTE]

:applause:

Just because this isn't replayed 24/7 doesn't mean it wasn't important.

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileFriendlyAmericanpainthorse-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=97 bulls;13993732]91 Finals game 2 vs Magic
92 Finals when he shut down Drexler in game 6
98 Finals Game 4
98 ECF when he shut down Mark Jackson
As far as plays?
The multiple game saving blocks on Charles Smith

The game saving steal vs the Jazz in 97 that won the Bulls the Chip

The Block vs Danny Ainge to save Game 4 of the 93 NBA Finals. To name a few.[/QUOTE]

That guy has Jordan goggles and only sees through them I guess, what ignorant questions he asked. Mark Jackson was scared shitless of Scottie Pippen by game 7 ECF.

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock;13993766]Agreed.



:applause:

Just because this isn't replayed 24/7 doesn't mean it wasn't important.

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/InfantileFriendlyAmericanpainthorse-size_restricted.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

One more notable defensive playoff for Pip. Scottie Pippen is 1 of only 2 players in history (Olajuwan being the other) to record 5 or more blocks and 5 steals in 1 playoff game when he had 6 steals and 5 blocks vs the Bad Boy Pistons in the 91 ECF game 1