Kyle Lowry: It's Either Me Or Dragic.

[QUOTE=BallsOut]Take everything in context. A #2 pick in last year's draft isn't worth drooling over. Let me fix that for you.

Why would they trade the #2** pick for Kevin Martin?

**: Weakest draft in recent memory and an incredibly underachieving first season.[/QUOTE]

Skip the formalities. I've posted enough about this.

Answer this:

[size=3][B]Why do you want the Lakers to acquire Derrick Williams?[/B][/size]

In that you'll have the answer as to why the T'Wolves wouldn't trade Williams after just 1 season. If he truly was such a "bust" and didn't offer much value/potential moving forward after an unimpressive rookie season, then he shouldn't be a focal point of your trade scenario for a [I]"top 3 PF"[/I] in Pau Gasol. You don't have the Lakers picking up "busts" like Wes Johnson or Martell Webster. Better yet, Darko.

[QUOTE=Rowe]
Williams was the better player in college, projected with a higher upside to the NBA, and it isn't even close.[/QUOTE]

Or maybe you were just brainwashed by the media hype. Are we gonna act like Brandon Jennings, a #10 pick in the same draft as Jordan Hill wouldn't have been a #2 pick in last year's draft? That should explain how weak the talent pool was in last year's draft after Irving.

William's horrible first year only further proves my point.

[QUOTE=BallsOut]Or maybe you were just brainwashed by the media hype. Are we gonna act like Brandon Jennings, a #10 pick in the same draft as Jordan Hill wouldn't have been a #2 pick in last year's draft? That should explain how weak the talent pool was in last year's draft after Irving.

[B]William's horrible first year only further proves my point[/B].[/QUOTE]

See my post above.

Answer that and get back to me.

Right now you're pulling out all the stops to justify how Minnesota doesn't need Williams, how Jordan Hill is so much better than Williams, & how Hill would've been the #2 pick in the 2011 NBA Draft. :lol Sure.

[QUOTE=Rowe]Skip the formalities. I've posted enough about this.

Answer this:

[B]Why do you want the Lakers to acquire Derrick Williams while giving up Pau Gasol?[/B]

In that you'll have the answer as to why the T'Wolves wouldn't trade Williams after just 1 season. If he truly was such a "bust" and didn't offer much value/potential moving forward after an unimpressive rookie season, then he shouldn't be a focal point of your trade scenario for a "top 3 PF" in Pau Gasol. You don't have the Lakers picking up "busts" like Wes Johnson or Martell Webster. Better yet, Darko.[/QUOTE]

The Lakers need to part ways with Pau after the vetoed Cp3 trade. It's obvious he's affected by it and can't play his best on this team with rumors constantly flying around.

Williams is definitely not the focal point. In fact out of the 3 players the Lakers would be getting, he'd be third. Lowry is the focal point obviously after Sessions proved he is nothing more than a bench PG. Then Lakers obviously need a bench scorer in Beasley. To replace Gasol, I would like the Lakers to get a younger PF that can at least move quick laterally to guard the pick n roll and hustle and be active for rebounds. I think Williams can fill that need.

It's not like I'm expecting Williams to become Amare or anything. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=Rowe]Skip the formalities. I've posted enough about this.

Answer this:

[size=3][B]Why do you want the Lakers to acquire Derrick Williams?[/B][/size]

In that you'll have the answer as to why the T'Wolves wouldn't trade Williams after just 1 season. If he truly was such a "bust" and didn't offer much value/potential moving forward after an unimpressive rookie season, then he shouldn't be a focal point of your trade scenario for a [I]"top 3 PF"[/I] in Pau Gasol. You don't have the Lakers picking up "busts" like Wes Johnson or Martell Webster. Better yet, Darko.[/QUOTE]

wouldn't mind the Lakers picking up Wes Johnson...I think he has potential. Martel Webster could be helpful too. Derrick Williams would serve no purpose on this team because he doesn't know how to play basketball. He prob wouldn't even start.

[QUOTE=IGOTGAME]wouldn't mind the Lakers picking up Wes Johnson...I think he has potential. Martel Webster could be helpful too. [B]Derrick Williams would serve no purpose on this team because he doesn't know how to play basketball.[/B] He prob wouldn't even start.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.

They should just waive Derrick Williams or send him to the Knicks for Toney Douglas & the draft rights to Ahmad Nivins. :applause:

[QUOTE=Rowe]
Right now you're pulling out all the stops to justify how Minnesota doesn't need Williams, how Jordan Hill is so much better than Williams, & how Hill would've been the #2 pick in the 2011 NBA Draft. :lol Sure.[/QUOTE]

1)Minnesota does not need Derrick Williams. In fact, they could put any PF in the NBA in his position and not miss a beat. Let's remember Love is top 3 in the NBA in minutes per game.

2)I never said Jordan Hill is better than Derrick Williams. I never said Derrick Williams is better than Jordan Hill. I think they're a wash to be honest. That's why I said if Jordan Hill entered last year's draft out of college, he'd be right there with Williams because of how weak the draft was.

Would love to hear you try and debate against either of these points though :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=ImmortalNemesis] Is sad that Lowry is acting this way. I thought he was better than Brooks. Brooks reacted the same way when Lowry took his starting spot. I had a small hope Houston could keep both PGs, guess that's over now. Houston will trade Lowry and Martin if they can. I wouldn't surprise me at all if Lowry, Martin, and Scola are gone by the start of the season.

Lowry used to be one of my favorite players, sad that it has to end this way.[/QUOTE]

I definitely get what your saying. It's dissapointing but completely understandable.

Dragic is in the best position, has proven himself as a starter and a durable one, while Lowry is also definitely starter quality, just not as durable and a tad older.

I'd keep the Dragon.

Fair enough to either of them, should be entering their prime, are both starters and worth some good coin, can't blame them to say it's me or him.

[QUOTE=BallsOut]
Williams is definitely not the focal point. In fact out of the 3 players the Lakers would be getting, he'd be third. Lowry is the focal point obviously after Sessions proved he is nothing more than a bench PG. Then Lakers obviously need a bench scorer in Beasley. To replace Gasol, I would like the Lakers to get a younger PF that can at least move quick laterally to guard the pick n roll and hustle and be active for rebounds. I think Williams can fill that need.[/quote]

Well we've already gone over that Beasley can't be traded. He'll be a Free Agent this offseason regardless even if Minnesota gives him a QO or not.

So who else is LA supposed to be getting?

Also Derrick Williams is the complete opposite of what you're describing for a Forward. He is far from a "hustle player" who crashes the boards to make up for a lack of offensive game. He has an offensive game, just is trying to transition into playing on the wing full-time.

You're confusing him with Jordan Hill, who already plays for the Lakers. Williams is an athletic scoring Forward. He dropped 20/10 on the Lakers earlier in the season, I'm sure you remember that right? It was televised. Basically a less refined version of Antawn Jamison early in his career when he was still slashing to the basket and not roaming the perimeter.

I find it funny you'd want Derrick Williams considering he'd benefit greatly from playing PF instead of SF, and that Andrew Bynum is the perfect Center compliment to him on both ends of the floor.

Firstly, you might want to post the source of the CBS blog post form the Chron (written by Jonathan Feigen):


[url]http://blog.chron.com/ultimaterockets/2012/05/disgruntled-lowry-feels-its-his-time-to-move-on/[/url]

And I've already posted this in the Rockets sub forum but nobody ever goes there :cry:


Anyway, HOW THE HELL DID THIS THREAD TURN INTO A LAKERS-WOLVES TRADE THREAD?!

[QUOTE=irondarts]That trade does not benefit the Wolves at all, maybe if it were only Beasley, the Wolves aren't going to trade a guy they took #2 overall a year after they drafted him, and they aren't going to trade both for Kevin Martin, come on man.[/QUOTE]

Who knows? The Heat traded Beasley who was a former #2 pick a season or two after he was drafted. Knicks traded Jordan Hill #8 pick a season after he was drafted. There are countless examples out there. I just saw his stats for the season, 8pts 5rbs 41% shooting in 21 minutes. Not terrible, but not good either. Certainly not typical of #2 draft picks.

Derrick Williams isn't that good. I still can't believe the T-Wolves refused to trade him for Pau Gasol straight up.:lol

[QUOTE=brantonli]Firstly, you might want to post the source of the CBS blog post form the Chron (written by Jonathan Feigen):


[url]http://blog.chron.com/ultimaterockets/2012/05/disgruntled-lowry-feels-its-his-time-to-move-on/[/url]

And I've already posted this in the Rockets sub forum but nobody ever goes there :cry:


Anyway, HOW THE HELL DID THIS THREAD TURN INTO A LAKERS-WOLVES TRADE THREAD?![/QUOTE]

As a well known Rockets fan, what are your thoughts on this proposed 3-team trade?

Rockets send: Lowry, Martin
Rockets receive: Gasol, Blake

Wolves send: Williams, Beasley
Wolves receive: Martin

Lakers send: Gasol, Blake
Receive: Lowry, Williams, Beasley

i'll take dragic, better PG imo. but lowry is the better player.

[QUOTE=Rowe]Well we've already gone over that Beasley can't be traded. He'll be a Free Agent this offseason regardless even if Minnesota gives him a QO or not.

So who else is LA supposed to be getting?

Also Derrick Williams is the complete opposite of what you're describing for a Forward. He is far from a "hustle player" who crashes the boards to make up for a lack of offensive game. He has an offensive game, just is trying to transition into playing on the wing full-time.

You're confusing him with Jordan Hill, who already plays for the Lakers. Williams is an athletic scoring Forward. He dropped 20/10 on the Lakers earlier in the season, I'm sure you remember that right? It was televised. Basically a less refined version of Antawn Jamison early in his career when he was still slashing to the basket and not roaming the perimeter.

I find it funny you'd want Derrick Williams considering he'd benefit greatly from playing PF instead of SF, and that Andrew Bynum is the perfect Center compliment to him on both ends of the floor.[/QUOTE]

Damn Williams is only 6'8? That's pretty undersized for a PF, at least what the Lakers have been accustomed to. If he could shoot jumpers, he'd be a good fit next to Bynum, because that's basically what Gasol was relagated to after Bynum took sole possession of the low block in the paint this season. I thought he was at least a good defensive player like a Verajao type, but if he's a less refined version of Antwan Jamison, no thanks. Jamison couldn't play a lick of defense against anybody.

[QUOTE=Rowe]Well we've already gone over that Beasley can't be traded. He'll be a Free Agent this offseason regardless even if Minnesota gives him a QO or not. [/QUOTE]

If true, this kinda bums me out. Beasley would've been the perfect bench player for the Lakers. :cry:

[QUOTE=BallsOut]1)Minnesota does not need Derrick Williams. In fact, they could put any PF in the NBA in his position and not miss a beat. Let's remember Love is top 3 in the NBA in minutes per game.[/quote]

Yes, they do need Derrick Williams. They need him to continue to develop his perimeter skills so that he can play on the floor with Kevin Love as a SF. Its not just improving ballhandling but also being able to be a solid defensive player when guarding wings. Thats the difference that seperates Williams from being a perpetual 6th Man who comes off the bench for maybe 10-12 PPG or a guy who could average 16-20 PPG. This is a team that badly needs not only talent, but another scorer to go to outside of Kevin Love.

[QUOTE]2)I never said Jordan Hill is better than Derrick Williams. I never said Derrick Williams is better than Jordan Hill. I think they're a wash to be honest. That's why I said if Jordan Hill entered last year's draft out of college, he'd be right there with Williams because of how weak the draft was.[/QUOTE]

So 1 year defines his career, huh?

Jordan Hill would not have been up there with Derrick Williams. He was basically a 1 year wonder in college and he just happened to measure out at 6'10 and get the GM's attention. There wasn't any scouting service that projected him to be more than a role player on this level, but at least the Knicks got to be the ones who found that out. Season to season comparisons with him & Williams go completely in Williams favor. Any team in their right mind would take Williams over Hill.

1 guy has a limited upside but could be a cheap bench player and the other guy is equally productive but his upside is unlimited as he develops his perimeter game. Makes perfect sense.

The draft was weak as a far as guys who would immediately be a "Franchise player", but there were plenty of talented players in the 2011 draft who many thought would become good starters in the NBA and a few maybe could sneak into an All Star game.

[quote]
Would love to hear you try and debate against either of these points though :confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]
I did. :confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=BallsOut]beat you to it :lol

I prefer Williams over Scola though. [B] I don't like Scola's contract[/B], and Williams is younger with more room to develop. Plus, how could Houston say no to a Dragic/Scola/Gasol combination they'd be like the all-star Euroleague team of the NBA :eek:[/QUOTE]
he probably has the best contract in the nba right now

Lowry is a highly overrated PG. He takes random shots, can become a little too wild at times, and doesn't play smart all the time. Not a PG you want running your ball club...

[QUOTE=BallsOut]Damn Williams is only 6'8? That's pretty undersized for a PF, at least what the Lakers have been accustomed to. If he could shoot jumpers, he'd be a good fit next to Bynum, because that's basically what Gasol was relagated to after Bynum took sole possession of the low block in the paint this season. I thought he was at least a good defensive player like a Verajao type, but if he's a less refined version of Antwan Jamison, no thanks. Jamison couldn't play a lick of defense against anybody.[/QUOTE]
He's undersized at 6'8 but he's a very good athlete.

Williams isn't a consistent shooter at this point in his career, but nearly 1/4 of his shots were 3 point attempts. Mainly because the T'Wolves have him out on the perimeter at the 3. Assuming he continues to improve from that area then he offers the true Inside/Out threat that Brown was trying to get out of a Gasol/Bynum combo. He'd definetly be productive there at his natural position of PF. Nowhere near as skilled as Gasol, but he's athletic and knows how to drive to the basket and draw fouls.

On defense yeah he is Jamison-like or better yet Jamison-lite.

Doesn't do much for post defense, espescially with an average wingspan.

[QUOTE=BallsOut]If true, this kinda bums me out. Beasley would've been the perfect bench player for the Lakers. :cry:[/QUOTE]

:lol I posted a thread about this a few days ago on how much he'd help off the bench if they had made that deal.

All the stuff I'm saying about Williams, but Beasley is clearly a far superior player talent-wise just is missing a brain. He just needs somebody like Kobe to slap the shit out of him, frequently, and maybe he'd put it together.

It made no damn sense that the Lakers couldn't get that deal done with Minnesota. So what if they had to take back Fisher? He was going to want a buyout no matter where he was traded. Throw in a future protected 1st or something.:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=BallsOut]As a well known Rockets fan, what are your thoughts on this proposed 3-team trade?

Rockets send: Lowry, Martin
Rockets receive: Gasol, Blake

Wolves send: Williams, Beasley
Wolves receive: Martin

Lakers send: Gasol, Blake
Receive: Lowry, Williams, Beasley[/QUOTE]

Hmm from a Rockets perspective, not bad, but ONLY if we can keep Dragic (which isn't a sure fire thing btw). I'd be disappointed we didn't get anything better (frankly I think the Rockets will use Martin and Lowry to move up in the draft) but Lakers give up Gasol and get Lowry, 2nd overall pick and Beasley? That's a bit too nice isn't it?

[QUOTE=blablabla]he probably has the best contract in the nba right now[/QUOTE]
He's older than Gasol and never has been as good as Gasol.

Yeah hes being paid modestly at $9.5 Million next season, but he's no more than a 4th option on any good team.:confusedshrug:

Just having him as a 2nd option for Houston hasn't gotten them far has it?

Scola is Houston's number one option, that's why they haven't been able to make the playoffs. Scola is a decent 2nd option and an EXCELLENT 3rd option.

You need a very good defensive center next to Scola though to cover his defensive mistakes, a la what Spurs should've done :lol

[QUOTE=brantonli]You need a very good defensive center next to Scola though to cover his defensive mistakes, a la what Spurs should've done :lol[/QUOTE]

ya, i think people need to realize that scola and martin are amongst the worst defenders at their position. martin especially...the guy just sucks defensively. if he's not getting you 20 points while also getting to the line, he's pretty useless. he's arguably worse than boozer which is saying a lot. he was a pretty talented scorer in sac-town but that franchise seems to have always had those. then they go elsewhere and you see their liabilities.

at the same time, he'd still be a nice fit for minny because they desperately need a pure SG and one that can catch and shoot. martin can do that but they need to shore up that team's defense for it to work successfully. martin has also been pretty injury prone in the past so that's another thing to consider.

i agree with the overall sentiment of rowe in this thread...all signs point to minny being committed to williams, at least right now. i think he's one of the four they keep on their books unless a deal comes around that just makes the ground shake. and these proposed trades? just not enough.

i don't know if he'll fully come around. he's an offensive threat but i just feel that he's a tweener. he's too slow laterally to guard SF's straight up and he gets overpowered when he guards PF's. his P&R defense and general awareness is pretty awful.

still, you can't give up on him just yet. for now, they just have to hope he becomes better defensively at recognizing what is going on and starts developing a solid mid-range jumper. if he can do that, he can take guys off the dribble a bit. the same thing he's bad at defensively is something he can force upon offensively on other teams. he's a tweener though and if recent drafts have shown anything, it's that those guys don't really stick in the NBA. if he ends up being a slightly better version of marvin williams, that wouldn't surprise me much

I've been on this trade forever for the Heat, and it was reportedly offered by Houston to the Heat. If we lose again, I'd definetly do it:

Bosh/Cole (or any other role player really, I used him b/c he's cheap)
for
Lowry/Scola/Dalembert

[url]http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d4huy9c[/url]

[QUOTE=irondarts]Yes but you have Gasol going to the Rockets, not the Wolves. You're saying the Wolves trade Beasley and Derrick Williams for Kevin Martin, which is terrible for them. Derrick Williams is not Jordan Hill, he's a lot better and has more potential.[/QUOTE]


If Houston throws in a first round pick then that could get the deal done.

[QUOTE=Rowe]He's undersized at 6'8 but he's a very good athlete.

Williams isn't a consistent shooter at this point in his career, but nearly 1/4 of his shots were 3 point attempts. [B]Mainly because the T'Wolves have him out on the perimeter at the 3[/B]. Assuming he continues to improve from that area then he offers the true Inside/Out threat that Brown was trying to get out of a Gasol/Bynum combo. He'd definetly be productive there at his natural position of PF. Nowhere near as skilled as Gasol, but he's athletic and knows how to drive to the basket and draw fouls.

On defense yeah he is Jamison-like or better yet Jamison-lite.

Doesn't do much for post defense, espescially with an average wingspan.[/QUOTE]
T-Wolves played him at the 4 the majority of the time. He just wanted to keep shooting threes.

you obviously havent watched Williams very much. He lacks the athetism to play 3.

He doesn't know what a good shot is and seems to find tough step back jumpers and has trouble finishing drives. Plus, he is horrible on defense and loses focus when he isn't scoring. I personally don't like having horrible defenders in the front court.

[QUOTE=itsGameTime]If I'm Houston, I gotta love this trade. Lowry or Dragic is as good as gone, they won't have enough money to keep both PGs. They also get rid of Martin's contract and finally get Pau Gasol after the Dragic/Scola/Martin talk broke down with the Lakers earlier this season.[/QUOTE]

No, Lowry, Martin and Scola for Blake and Gasol...:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[QUOTE=NBA2k-Monster23]If Houston throws in a first round pick then that could get the deal done.[/QUOTE]

Haha, so Houston will give Martin, Scola, Lowry and a first round pick for Blake and Gasol? :roll: :roll: :roll:

How about Lowry to Heat for Chalmers and Miller..

[QUOTE=pmj]I've been on this trade forever for the Heat, and it was reportedly offered by Houston to the Heat. If we lose again, I'd definetly do it:

Bosh/Cole (or any other role player really, I used him b/c he's cheap)
for
Lowry/Scola/Dalembert

[url]http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d4huy9c[/url][/QUOTE]

I like this trade, makes sense for both teams.

That means that the Rockets will do anything to get Goran back and if so, then the Rockets will have a team looking like this;

PG: Dragic
SG: Martin (as for now)
SF: Parsons
PF: Bosh
C: Camby

Sure, they would have to get a FA big guy but still, the trade would benifit them in the long run.

For all the guys that say Derrick Williams is too much to give up on the Timberwolves side, does anyone realistically see him reaching his full potential playing behind Kevin Love?

[QUOTE=Kingwillball]How about Lowry to Heat for Chalmers and Miller..[/QUOTE]

Keep dreaming.

[QUOTE=pmj]I've been on this trade forever for the Heat, and it was reportedly offered by Houston to the Heat. If we lose again, I'd definetly do it:

Bosh/Cole (or any other role player really, I used him b/c he's cheap)
for
Lowry/Scola/Dalembert

[url]http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=d4huy9c[/url][/QUOTE]

Done deal if you throw in a late 1st.

Rather have 28 years old Bosh over 31 years old Gasol

[QUOTE=ImmortalNemesis]Didn't read the article but so I don't know the context but I'll comment anyway. Is sad that Lowry is acting this way. I thought he was better than Brooks. Brooks reacted the same way when Lowry took his starting spot. I had a small hope Houston could keep both PGs, guess that's over now. Houston will trade Lowry and Martin if they can. I wouldn't surprise me at all if Lowry, Martin, and Scola are gone by the start of the season.

Lowry used to be one of my favorite players, sad that it has to end this way.[/QUOTE]


I wonder if there is a deal that could be worked out between Houston and Chicago? Maybe something along the lines of Houston getting Asik, Boozer, Player ?, Player ? (or the Bobcats pick) and Chicago gets either Courtney Lee/Martin and Lowry, Scola?

Can anyone think of anything realistic that is right for both teams?

[QUOTE=KelticForce1349]I wonder if there is a deal that could be worked out between Houston and Chicago? Maybe something along the lines of Houston getting Asik, Boozer, Player ?, Player ? (or the Bobcats pick) and Chicago gets either Courtney Lee/Martin and Lowry, Scola?

Can anyone think of anything realistic that is right for both teams?[/QUOTE]

Can't see the Rockets accepting this trade, they'd be stupid if they would do this.

Asik is a nice player but this trade would be stupid, the Rockets already have 2 centers in Camby and Dalembert. Boozer is soon to be 31 years old and obviously not in his prime anymore and not a big upgrade or upgrade at all over Scola.

Asik and Boozer as the main guys won't do it in a trade where Chicago wants Lowry, Scola and Martin/Lee..

Sorry.

[QUOTE=millwad]Can't see the Rockets accepting this trade, they'd be stupid if they would do this.

Asik is a nice player but this trade would be stupid, the Rockets already have 2 centers in Camby and Dalembert. Boozer is soon to be 31 years old and obviously not in his prime anymore and not a big upgrade or upgrade at all over Scola.

Asik and Boozer as the main guys won't do it in a trade where Chicago wants Lowry, Scola and Martin/Lee..

Sorry.[/QUOTE]

Ok. I see your point...unfortunately. I guess the Bulls would need to offer Deng, something they would never actually do.

[QUOTE=BallsOut]Rockets send: Lowry, Martin
Rockets receive: Gasol, Blake

Wolves send: Williams, Beasley
Wolves receive: Martin

Lakers send: Gasol, Blake
Receive: Lowry, Williams, Beasley

3-team trade that benefits all teams. :applause:[/QUOTE]

How do the Wolves get better from this?

No way we would do that awful trade.