Magic Johnson vs Larry Bird. Year-by-Year.

[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]Excuses. That was only one game but it just happened to be the most important game of their college careers and a game in which they competed directly with one another. This is a results oriented world we live in and all excuses in the world cant take away these simple facts. Bird competed against Magic in the final, he didn't play well, and he lost. Period.[/QUOTE]

In sports if you want to say a player is better than another player - in a given year or overall - you need a bigger sample than 1 game. This is merely straw-clutching on your behalf.

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]I would give Magic in '85 but the rest is correct and I think most people already know this though, at least the people that know anything about the two.[/QUOTE]

You have to be joking. The 1985 season was probably Larry Bird's Greatest season. There is no way you can give Magic 85. Larry Bird was the MVP of the season. Just because the Celtics lost to the Lakers in the finals that doesn't mean Magicwas better that season. He wasn't even the FMVP, Kareem was.

[QUOTE=LeBird]In sports if you want to say a player is better than another player - in a given year or overall - you need a bigger sample than 1 game. This is merely straw-clutching on your behalf.[/QUOTE]

How can you be the best player if you don't play well when it matters the most? Also, at what point did I say that this 1 game is what my entire opinion is based on? It's an important benchmark used as an example.

it's acknowledged by everybody that Magic and Bird's popularity ushered in the modern nba...ratings, game show on tv live....finals airing LIVE,etc



Nobody since russell in the 1960s has gotten 3 consecutive mvp awards except Bird. Do you think it's a legit accomplishment, or do you think it was the league and reporters working to market the nba to white audience?

not Jordan,KAJ, Magic,Moses,Shaq, Duncan,Dream,...literally nobody else has done it.

I say there's no legit way that anyone can say that Bird enjoyed the most dominant 3 year stretch(relative to other players) in the NBA....post 1970..and that the 3 consecutive mvps were bullshit, to promote a white superstar to mainstream audiences.

Bird was in fact a Great player....an alltime great..legit superstar and winner..but I'm calling bull on the fact that he got award three straight years ...first and only player since Russell.

The most dominant 3 year run was by Jordan. In fact it was so dominant that it lasted for 7 years.

[QUOTE=Smoke117]You have to be joking. The 1985 season was probably Larry Bird's Greatest season. There is no way you can give Magic 85. Larry Bird was the MVP of the season. Just because the Celtics lost to the Lakers in the finals that doesn't mean Magicwas better that season. He wasn't even the FMVP, Kareem was.[/QUOTE]
You could argue that that was when Bird was at his best but that was not his best season.

His best season was either 1986 or 1984, I would go with 1986.

Bird was the MVP in that 1985 season but he didn't particularly play well in the post-season mainly because of his hand injury. That hand injury was his own problem considering how he only injured it because he got in a bar fight. It's not like he just hurt it in a game or he just hurt it on accident, he put himself in a situation where he hurt his own hand.

Kareem was the Finals MVP in 1985 but Magic was the best player in LA. Plus, Magic had a great Finals series in '85 too, maybe not better than Kareem but still great.

18.4/14.0/6.8/2.2 with 49.4% shooting.

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic[/QUOTE]

[B]This[/B]

[QUOTE=1987_Lakers]1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic[/QUOTE]

This

&

Give Bird Kareem & take away The Chief. I say Bird will have run table on Magic every year. Bird will have like 8-9 yrs & magic will have 2 yrs over him.

[QUOTE=get these NETS]it's acknowledged by everybody that Magic and Bird's popularity ushered in the modern nba...ratings, game show on tv live....finals airing LIVE,etc



Nobody since russell in the 1960s has gotten 3 consecutive mvp awards except Bird. Do you think it's a legit accomplishment, or do you think it was the league and reporters working to market the nba to white audience?

not Jordan,KAJ, Magic,Moses,Shaq, Duncan,Dream,...literally nobody else has done it.

I say there's no legit way that anyone can say that Bird enjoyed the most dominant 3 year stretch(relative to other players) in the NBA....post 1970..and that the 3 consecutive mvps were bullshit, to promote a white superstar to mainstream audiences.

Bird was in fact a Great player....an alltime great..legit superstar and winner..but I'm calling bull on the fact that he got award three straight years ...first and only player since Russell.[/QUOTE]


other times I've posted this...people have avoided answering the question..so this will be last time I bring this up..

clearly makes some people uncomfortable to mention this,but hey...c'est la vie.

Think about who votes for the regular season MVP award. If you don't know let me help you. Since the 1980

the 3 consec. mvps were bull...

when they talk about magic and bird "rescuing the league" , it was based on both of those guys winning games....winning rings...playing at a high level..and about them both being highly marketable players.

Bird and Magic doc. goes into detail about how the rise of the Celtics and white star players helped the league expand.
Nobody with a straight face can honestly say that Bird dominated the league over a 3 year stretch more than any other player...but he was nba dream come true....had backstory...played for storied franchise in huge sports city AND....lived up to the hype...and was white.

I like to think that alltime great players are in contention for mvp (1-5 finish in voting) for the bulk of their careers..so I mean Bird was obviously in contention those 3 years..legitimately, but him getting those 3 straight was bullshit.....especially in light of dominant all time great players before him and after him who haven't gotten same shine.

Don't expect any serious rebuttal on this topic because there is none....

People identify with Bird because he was a legitimately great white superstar....so logic and reasoning goes out of the window when his name comes up.

1979-80: tie (edge to Magic)
1980-81: Bird
1981-82: Magic
1982-83: tie (edge to Bird)
1983-84: Bird
1984-85: Bird
1985-86: Bird
1986-87: Magic
1987-88: Bird
1988-89: Magic
1989-90: Magic
1990-91: Magic

total: 5-5-2 (6-6 if you want to eliminate ties)

it's pretty close :confusedshrug: Magic is the better player IMO

Rubbish. The documentary did nothing of the sort. It just said that some people tried to play the white angle and Bird was having none of it. It was more than just their skin colour that drew comparisons.

You can't get a serious rebuttal because most people think he deserved the 3, and you think he didn't. Obviously, there are contenders most years and it can go either way sometimes. It can be subjective. But your initial point that Bird had to have the 3 consecutive best years of any player ever to win the 3 MVPs in a row is fallacious. He just had to be the best during those 3 years. A runner up in one year may be better than a winner in another year. Thems the breaks.

[QUOTE=get these NETS]the 3 consec. mvps were bull...

when they talk about magic and bird "rescuing the league" , it was based on both of those guys winning games....winning rings...playing at a high level..and about them both being highly marketable players.

Bird and Magic doc. goes into detail about how the rise of the Celtics and white star players helped the league expand.
Nobody with a straight face can honestly say that Bird dominated the league over a 3 year stretch more than any other player...but he was nba dream come true....had backstory...played for storied franchise in huge sports city AND....lived up to the hype...and was white.

I like to think that alltime great players are in contention for mvp (1-5 finish in voting) for the bulk of their careers..so I mean Bird was obviously in contention those 3 years..legitimately, but him getting those 3 straight was bullshit.....especially in light of dominant all time great players before him and after him who haven't gotten same shine.

Don't expect any serious rebuttal on this topic because there is none....

People identify with Bird because he was a legitimately great white superstar....so logic and reasoning goes out of the window when his name comes up.[/QUOTE]

Of course there's a rebuttal; I had one for you on the last thread and you've already forgotten about it.

To refresh your memory, it's not about race -- he was the best player in the league during each of those three years.

But by all means, please go ahead and enlighten the rest of us on who you think deserved the award more in '84, '85, and '86.

[QUOTE=LeBird]Rubbish. The documentary did nothing of the sort. It just said that some people tried to play the white angle and Bird was having none of it. It was more than just their skin colour that drew comparisons.

[/QUOTE]

Just because Bird didn't care about in and feed into it doesn't mean that him being a white superstar wasn't a huge factor in revitalizing the league. Of course it's not the only thing that drew comparisons between Bird and Magic but I feel the documentary is pretty clear that race was a big issue.

Race is ALWAYS an issue, especially when it comes to the NBA. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]Just because Bird didn't care about in and feed into it doesn't mean that him being a white superstar wasn't a huge factor in revitalizing the league. Of course it's not the only thing that drew comparisons between Bird and Magic but I feel the documentary is pretty clear that race was a big issue.[/QUOTE]

In College the race issue didn't exist (the rivalry barely did) and he still got an incredible amount of attention. He was a phenom and he got the attention his talent merited. This is about as stupid as saying that any black player got their MVP because of their race.

[QUOTE=LeBird]In College the race issue didn't exist (the rivalry barely did) and he still got an incredible amount of attention. He was a phenom and he got the attention his talent merited. This is about as stupid as saying that any black player got their MVP because of their race.[/QUOTE]


highest rated ncaa finals ever was ...guess which year?
still the highest rated..


coincidence?????

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2009-03-08-bird-magic-cover_N.htm[/url]


[B]Larry Bird of Indiana State and Earvin "Magic" Johnson of Michigan State embarked on a path through the NCAA tournament that would take them to the championship game of the Final Four, a showdown that remains the highest rated televised college basketball game. [/B]

[QUOTE=LeBird]In College the race issue didn't exist (the rivalry barely did) and he still got an incredible amount of attention. He was a phenom and he got the attention his talent merited. This is about as stupid as saying that any black player got their MVP because of their race.[/QUOTE]

At no time did I say the only reason Bird gets attention or wins awards is because he's white but I think you'd be a fool to ignore race and it's impact.

HIGHEST selling Sports illustrated cover EVER????


happens to be a special mid week edition they put out....when Mark McGwire beat the (then) single season home run record of Maris


[IMG]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/1998/62/coverfront.jpg[/IMG]


remember....the regular issue had come out already...but the midweek special edition sold more than any edition they had ever put out...

coincidence?

sammy and mark "brought back" baseball......... and we both know that had sosa broken the record that there is no way that the American public reaction would have been the same

one Sosa is not American
two..he's Black

[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]At no time did I say the only reason Bird gets attention or wins awards is because he's white but I think you'd be a fool to ignore race and it's impact.[/QUOTE]

Race gives the rivalry more exposure because they contrasted in so many ways: black, white; recluse, partygoer; Celtics, Lakers; College adversaries; two great players. But to suggest that Larry was pushed to the front as a conspiracy and didn't deserve his MVPs is bullcrap.

Are people here suggesting that Bird won those 3 MVPs because he was white? I would love to hear who people would have voted over Bird in the MVP race in '84, '85, & '86 because Bird was clearly the best player in the league at that time.

In 1941 Joe Dimaggio won the regular season AL MVP award largely on the strength of his 56 game hitting streak. A legend for the ages and a season for the ages. Also in the 1941 season Ted Williams hit .406 and won the AL Triple Crown.

So because Dimaggio won the MVP then we can say with certainty that Dimaggio > Williams in 1941, right?

:biggums:

[QUOTE=Champ]Of course there's a rebuttal; I had one for you on the last thread and you've already forgotten about it.

To refresh your memory, it's not about race -- he was the best player in the league during each of those three years.

But by all means, please go ahead and enlighten the rest of us on who you think deserved the award more in '84, '85, and '86.[/QUOTE]

I think I did reply to you that in ANY given year...there are 2-3 players who could legitimately considered the MVP of the league..
if things are close..generally other criteria is used..such as best player on team with best record is going to win the award

Barkley could have gotten mvp one year that Magic got it...had phenomenal year but off court stuff and being outspoken kept CB from getting it..and Sixers record was bad

Kidd could have gotten it one year, but domestic issue doomed him and Duncan got it.

I think in any one of those years that there were 2 other players who had equal or close to equally phenomenal years....or who were the best players on teams with better records.

if things are close...the white superstar who plays for the big sports city gets the knod.....
3 straight years....which neither KAJ..nor Jordan ever did...

[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]In 1941 Joe Dimaggio won the regular season AL MVP award largely on the strength of his 56 game hitting streak. A legend for the ages and a season for the ages. Also in the 1941 season Ted Williams hit .406 and won the AL Triple Crown.

So because Dimaggio won the MVP then we can say with certainty that Dimaggio > Williams in 1941, right?

:biggums:[/QUOTE]


speaking of Ted Williams..I'm not a baseball guy nor am I from boston but I read this story when I was a very young kid and never really respected sports reporters

Forget the details but ....Ted didn't get along with a reporter...and after a stellar,even for him..year...he either missed out on unanimous mvp or didn't get some award because the reporter left him off the ballot or didn't vot eofr him in the top 3 or something

really petty shit....even though Williams' numbers...and in baseball numbers do all of the talking....williams' number justified him being mvp?

maybe someone can clarify the real story but petty ass, childish reporter tried to screw Williams.

[QUOTE=get these NETS]
if things are close...the white superstar who plays for the big sports city gets the knod.....
3 straight years....which neither KAJ..nor Jordan ever did...[/QUOTE]

What's your point? Some people consider Bird better than both those players, so why wouldn't he deserve an accolade that they didn't get? Then again, you could consider them better but say that they weren't consistently - 3 years in a row, at least - the best in the NBA.

Your argument is just shambolic and embarrassing. Especially since you've brought up Mark McGwire into this as well. The thing to take away is that the MVP award is not the be-all and end-all.

[QUOTE=Kobe 4 The Win]In 1941 Joe Dimaggio won the regular season AL MVP award largely on the strength of his 56 game hitting streak. A legend for the ages and a season for the ages. Also in the 1941 season Ted Williams hit .406 and won the AL Triple Crown.

So because Dimaggio won the MVP then we can say with certainty that Dimaggio > Williams in 1941, right?

:biggums:[/QUOTE]

What's the comparison that you're making? Joe DiMaggio was either #1 or #2 in the game playing for the best team in the world that was a clear juggernaut at the time. Larry Bird was being already called the GOAT during his 3 year MVP run winning 2 titles and dominating the game. Are you comparing Magic to Ted Williams or something?

[QUOTE=get these NETS]speaking of Ted Williams..I'm not a baseball guy nor am I from boston but I read this story when I was a very young kid and never really respected sports reporters

Forget the details but ....Ted didn't get along with a reporter...and after a stellar,even for him..year...he either missed out on unanimous mvp or didn't get some award because the reporter left him off the ballot or didn't vot eofr him in the top 3 or something

really petty shit....even though Williams' numbers...and in baseball numbers do all of the talking....williams' number justified him being mvp?

maybe someone can clarify the real story but petty ass, childish reporter tried to screw Williams.[/QUOTE]

Thes douchebags play favorites and screw over players they don't like or get along with all the time. They usually favor the guys that kiss their asses. I f**king hate sportswriters. some of the lowest scum of society in my opinion.

Just to clarify Larry Bird did not kiss the ass of sportswriters. Quite the opposite. He ignored them and treated them with distain. Another reason why I love Larry Bird.

[QUOTE=nycelt84]What's the comparison that you're making? Joe DiMaggio was either #1 or #2 in the game playing for the best team in the world that was a clear juggernaut at the time. Larry Bird was being already called the GOAT during his 3 year MVP run winning 2 titles and dominating the game. Are you comparing Magic to Ted Williams or something?[/QUOTE]

What I'm pointing out is that people overrate the signifigance of regular season MVP awards. In any given year there could be 2, 3 or more guys that are worthy of winning the damn thing. Just because one guy wins it doesn't mean he is hands down the better player than the guys who didn't. It's an arbitrary award decided by petty douchbags.

Bird won 3 in a row from 84 to 86. Great.

Magic won 3 out of 4 from 87 to 90. So what?

[QUOTE=get these NETS]I think I did reply to you that in ANY given year...there are 2-3 players who could legitimately considered the MVP of the league..
if things are close..generally other criteria is used..such as best player on team with best record is going to win the award

Barkley could have gotten mvp one year that Magic got it...had phenomenal year but off court stuff and being outspoken kept CB from getting it..and Sixers record was bad

Kidd could have gotten it one year, but domestic issue doomed him and Duncan got it.

I think in any one of those years that there were 2 other players who had equal or close to equally phenomenal years....or who were the best players on teams with better records.

if things are close...the white superstar who plays for the big sports city gets the knod.....
3 straight years....which neither KAJ..nor Jordan ever did...[/QUOTE]

Trying to stay on topic here.

Yes. Sadly, race is always a factor.

However, it had far, far less to do with Bird winning three straight MVPs than the fact that he was simply the best player in the league during those three years.

Were you watching the NBA then? I would venture that most anyone who was at that time and paying attention would agree that Bird was the best player in the game.

You had said that during that period, the award could've gone to perhaps 2 or 3 other guys who also had great years, and I'm still waiting to hear who those guys might be.

King in '84? He came in second and it wasn't close.

Magic in '85? Bird had 73 first place votes and Magic had one.

And who, pray tell, would it have been in '86? Again, Bird had 73 votes, and Wilkins got 5.

Bird's accomplishments had permeated American sports so deeply that year that he was voted the AP athlete of the year -- unprecedented at the time for an NBA athlete and the only other player ever to do it since is Jordan.

Bird was superior to Magic every single year until he had that gruesome back injury. Magic just had better team accolades in certain years because....welll he had the better team. Kareem has a better case for being the GOAT than Magic does. I mean LOL. Magic forced his way to LA because he specifically wanted to play with Kareem, while Bird inherited a 29 win Celtics team and built them as a dynasty.

The 80s Lakers had more success than the 80s Celtics, but to say Magic was a better player is laughable for anyone that watched them both. During the 80s people were talking about Bird as the GOAT. Magic didn't get overrated until after Bird got hurt.

[QUOTE=MiamiThrice] During the 80s people were talking about Bird as the GOAT.[/quote]
They said the same about Magic as well and they said that even in the 90s.

Plus, I read a post about it earlier saying that the main reason why Bird may have gotten more GOAT recognition because most news and broadcasts were from the East coast which is to Bird's advantage. It doesn't mean he is better, it just means Bird was in a better situation to get more recognition.

[quote]Magic didn't get overrated until after Bird got hurt.[/QUOTE]
Magic didn't get overrated, Magic just got better and was utilized more for the Lakers. Magic's prime was from like '87-'90 whereas Bird's prime was '84-'86. Magic always did whatever it took to win. Earlier in his career, he set up his teammates a lot because he played on a great team and he won. Later in his career, he started having more responsibility with the scoring load because his teammates weren't that great anymore and they still won.

It's not Magic's fault that he happens to be very good at the game of basketball.

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]

Plus, I read a post about it earlier saying that the main reason why Bird may have gotten more GOAT recognition because most news and broadcasts were from the East coast which is to Bird's advantage. It doesn't mean he is better, it just means Bird was in a better situation to get more recognition.

[/QUOTE]

Not buying it. They both got plenty of press.

Magic was in a bigger media market, and sought public attention far more than Bird did.

This has become tiresome. Bird had a slightly better peak. Magic won more championships and had better longevity.

Bird = Magic

/Thread

[QUOTE=LeBird]What's your point? Some people consider Bird better than both those players, so why wouldn't he deserve an accolade that they didn't get? Then again, you could consider them better but say that they weren't consistently - 3 years in a row, at least - the best in the NBA.

Your argument is just shambolic and embarrassing. Especially since you've brought up Mark McGwire into this as well. The thing to take away is that the MVP award is not the be-all and end-all.[/QUOTE]

I've never heard of sports fan who believes that Bird was a better player or had a better career than either KAJ or Jordan. I note that you're not even saying that..

highest rated ncaa finals ever...think highest rated college basketball game EVER...as in EVER..

and the Sycamores weren't shit before Bird..haven't been shit since..

why do you think that game drew such high ratings?

[QUOTE=Champ]Not buying it. They both got plenty of press.

Magic was in a bigger media market, and sought public attention far more than Bird did.[/QUOTE]

Bird played for a storied franchise..in fact THE storied franchise of the NBA at the time....in a MAJOR sports town...and he lived up to the incredible hype immediately....reflected in addition team wins from previous year

he resurrected the Celtics...was a legitimately great clutch player...white guy dominating a sport where majority of the players were Black..and he played in one of the top 3 sports cities in America



central casting couldn't have created a better sports icon for the NBA...

Magic completely outplayed Peak Bird in the Finals despite being 3 years younger.

More versatile due to speed and ballhandling ability. More efficient scorer. Led the league in steals. It's Magic.

[QUOTE=Champ]Trying to stay on topic here.

Yes. Sadly, race is always a factor.

However, it had far, far less to do with Bird winning three straight MVPs than the fact that he was simply the best player in the league during those three years.

Were you watching the NBA then? I would venture that most anyone who was at that time and paying attention would agree that Bird was the best player in the game.

You had said that during that period, the award could've gone to perhaps 2 or 3 other guys who also had great years, and I'm still waiting to hear who those guys might be.

King in '84? He came in second and it wasn't close.

Magic in '85? Bird had 73 first place votes and Magic had one.

And who, pray tell, would it have been in '86? Again, Bird had 73 votes, and Wilkins got 5.

Bird's accomplishments had permeated American sports so deeply that year that he was voted the AP athlete of the year -- unprecedented at the time for an NBA athlete and the only other player ever to do it since is Jordan.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Champ]Trying to stay on topic here.

Yes. Sadly, race is always a factor.

However, it had far, far less to do with Bird winning three straight MVPs than the fact that he was simply the best player in the league during those three years.

Were you watching the NBA then? I would venture that most anyone who was at that time and paying attention would agree that Bird was the best player in the game.

You had said that during that period, the award could've gone to perhaps 2 or 3 other guys who also had great years, and I'm still waiting to hear who those guys might be.

King in '84? He came in second and it wasn't close.

Magic in '85? Bird had 73 first place votes and Magic had one.

And who, pray tell, would it have been in '86? Again, Bird had 73 votes, and Wilkins got 5.

Bird's accomplishments had permeated American sports so deeply that year that he was voted the AP athlete of the year -- unprecedented at the time for an NBA athlete and the only other player ever to do it since is Jordan.[/QUOTE]


ok..let's go by the same criteria I've been using all along

the amount of votes given to other players doesn't mean anything to as I've already established that I think reporters were promoting Bird

in 84 Magic went for 17.6 13.1 7.3 lakers went 54-28
...Magic in 85 for 18.3 points 12.6 assists 6.3 rebounds for 62-20 lakers team

86 magic went 18 12.3 5. 9 and lakers went 62-20

here is magic's statline for the 3 years he did win the mvp

1987 23.9 12.2 6.3 65-17

1988 22.5 12.8 7.9 62-20
1990 22.3 11.5 6.6 63-19 team record

[QUOTE=eliteballer]Magic completely outplayed Peak Bird in the Finals despite being 3 years younger.

More versatile due to speed and ballhandling ability. More efficient scorer. Led the league in steals. It's Magic.[/QUOTE]

Bird was every bit a versatile and multifaceted as Magic.

[QUOTE=get these NETS]ok..let's go by the same criteria I've been using all along

the amount of votes given to other players doesn't mean anything to as I've already established that I think reporters were promoting Bird

in 84 Magic went for 17.6 13.1 7.3 lakers went 54-28
...Magic in 85 for 18.3 points 12.6 assists 6.3 rebounds for 62-20 lakers team

86 magic went 18 12.3 5. 9 and lakers went 62-20

here is magic's statline for the 3 years he did win the mvp

1987 23.9 12.2 6.3 65-17

1988 22.5 12.8 7.9 62-20
1990 22.3 11.5 6.6 63-19 team record[/QUOTE]

If reporters were promoting Bird to such a degree, and he was the beneficiary of preferential voting as you say, then why did he suddenly fall out of favor with those same voters during the '87 and '88 seasons, when he was still one of the best players in the game? Did American sportswriters secretly conspire and agree that 3 MVPs were enough?

Of course not. The reason was the same as when Bird had one his awards -- other players, namely Magic and Jordan, had better seasons.

While we're at it, why didn't they give Bird the MVP award in '81 over Dr. J? Given how close it was, and how both players had very comparable seasons, you'd think an agenda-driven, racially-motivated votership would've given the award to Bird easily.