Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

Thanks for reading my post and for the reply, Legends66NBA7.

I agree with you about Elliot Kalb. His rankings are nonsensical in places. However, his reasons for ranking Shaq so high are quite powerful; he argued that his dominance over the second best player in the league at the time (Duncan) was greater than any other player's level of dominance. Of course, the book was written shortly after Shaq's 3-peat and I'm sure he only ranked Shaq first to get a reaction from readers.

Regarding Robertson's lack of post-season success, to save myself time, I copied the following from a truly reliable source - bleacherreport (ha!). However, the writer has clearly done his homework, so it saves me some time.

[quote]Career on Cincinnati Royals (10 Seasons)

1960

[QUOTE]Jerry Lucas was a good player but not a true superstar. He was known for going out of his way to check his statistics rather than worrying about winning games.[/QUOTE]

Now this was the context I was looking forward too.

I knew about Oscar being an ass towards his teammates, but knowing Lucas was stat hunting... that's very interesting. Tells me a lot more about some of Oscar's internal problems, as well.

[QUOTE]Finally, it's unfair to criticise Oscar for missing the Playoffs. After all, Kobe missed the Playoffs in 2004-05 and he's a player who, according to this thread, many people think was better than Oscar.[/QUOTE]

Well, to be fair, Kobe missed 1 time (it was a hectic season for Bryant's Lakers) as opposed to Oscar missing multiple times. Though, I understand what your getting at.

[QUOTE]John Havlicek has 8 rings but he wasn't a better player than Elgin Baylor.

Elvin Hayes has 1 ring but he wasn't a better player than Karl Malone.

Robert Parish has 4 rings but he wasn't a better player than Patrick Ewing.[/QUOTE]

Well, at least you didn't make a Robert Horry/Derek Fisher/Steve Kerr/K.C. Jones comparison.

:oldlol:. Just kidding.

I agree with the examples. I actually thought Hayes vs Malone wasn't that vague at one point in time, but I knew better.

[QUOTE]Rings only tell you so much. You have to study the player, look at his strengths and weaknesses and make a judgement on the player's ability.

[B]Oscar arguably had more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any player in NBA history.[/B][/QUOTE]

Fair points, maybe the last sentence is a bit vague for me, but I can understand. He's was a special talent and perhaps if he did getter better teammates earlier on in his career, were looking at the Big-O in a different spectrum.

I think I did know his playoff averages from before, so I can't say he didn't step up (it's just hard to maintain the numbers he did under tougher defense and better teams in a playoff series).

[QUOTE=fpliii]did this quickly, let me know if there are any glaring omissions

11 Robertson
12 West
13 LeBron
14 Moses
15 Erving
16 Isiah
17 Havlicek
18 Garnett
19 Wade
20 Dirk
21 Baylor
22 Pippen
23 Robinson
24 Rodman
25 Barkley
26 Drexler
27 Pettit
28 Karl Malone
29 Cousy
30 Stockton

(before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)[/QUOTE]

Karl Malone is extremely low, under the likes of Rodman? Dirk? Wade?

[I]"Oscar arguably had more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any player in NBA history"[/I]

Oscar was above average (or indeed outstanding) in nearly every basketball skill. That's what I meant. He was a truly outstanding shooter, he could create his own shot better than anyone in his era, he was an excellent passer, skilled ball handler, exceptional rebounder and arguably the best post-up guard of all-time. His defense was above average but not exceptional.

Kobe missed the playoffs once when he had a poor support cast. In the majority of his other seasons of his career he had either Shaq or Gasol alongside him. Oscar had a weak support cast for the majority of his career. Had he played alongside someone of Kareem's calibre for his entire career, then he'd never have missed the playoffs.

Maybe a better comparison is Magic Johnson. Let's swap Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. Suddenly Oscar wins 4 or 5 championships in Los Angeles while Magic Johnson struggles to win a championship in Cincinatti. Who's career would be better than? No doubt it would be Oscar's. And yet, that doesn't tell us anything about how good the two players were, but it does tell us how good (or bad) their support casts were.

That's why we need to be more intelligent than to just look at team success. Sure, we need to factor it in, but, when evaluating individual players, looking at team success will only tell you so much.

Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal player on both ends of the court but played for some diabolical Magic teams.

Pete Maravich was one of the most talented offensive players in basketball history but how many of his Hawks and Jazz teammates can you name?

George Gervin was one of the finest scorers of all-time but how many of his Spurs teammates are household names?

All three of those players are underrated by ISH posters.

It's no coincidence; ISH posters (and fans in general) overrate team success when evaluating individual players.

11. LeBron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Kevin Garnett
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley

21. Bob Cousy
22. Bob Pettit
23. George Mikan
24. Isiah Thomas
25. John Havlicek
26. Rick Barry
27. Elgin Baylor
28. Scottie Pippen
29. Dwyane Wade
30. George Gervin
31. Elvin Hayes

[QUOTE=WillC][I]"Oscar arguably had more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any player in NBA history"[/I]

Oscar was above average (or indeed outstanding) in nearly every basketball skill. That's what I meant. He was a truly outstanding shooter, he could create his own shot better than anyone in his era, he was an excellent passer, skilled ball handler, exceptional rebounder and arguably the best post-up guard of all-time. His defense was above average but not exceptional.[/QUOTE]

Okay, I understand.

[QUOTE]Maybe a better comparison is Magic Johnson. Let's swap Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. Suddenly Oscar wins 4 or 5 championships in Los Angeles while Magic Johnson struggles to win a championship in Cincinatti. Who's career would be better than? No doubt it would be Oscar's. And yet, that doesn't tell us anything about how good the two players were, but it does tell us how good (or bad) their support casts were.[/QUOTE]

I actually like this comparison a lot, because Magic came out publicly and refused to play for the Chicago Bulls, if they had the #1 pick. He even said he wanted to play for Kareem. That tells me that Magic probably didn't want to be on a bottom level team. While I'm sure he would have had won titles, would have made the playoffs every year and make 9 trips to the Finals ? Probably not.

[QUOTE]That's why we need to be more intelligent than to just look at team success. Sure, we need to factor it in, but, when evaluating individual players, looking at team success will only tell you so much.[/QUOTE]

Yes, individual and team accomplishments both put into context provides us with the most logical answer.

[QUOTE]Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal player on both ends of the court but played for some diabolical Magic teams.

Pete Maravich was one of the most talented offensive players in basketball history but how many of his Hawks and Jazz teammates can you name?

George Gervin was one of the finest scorers of all-time but how many of his Spurs teammates are household names?[/QUOTE]

Well, I can see why all 3 can be overrated, just as much they can be underrated.

T-Mac, while a great peak, also didn't have the best practice habits and was consider a lazy player and a bad attitude earlier on in his career. I actually thought his best defensive days were in Toronto, because I don't think he was ever the same defensive player when he started to be the first option on the Magic.

Maravich, volume scorer and a great passer and your right, I probably can't name many on those Jazz/Hawks teams (I just thought of old Gail Goodrich :oldlol:). His negatives were that he was considered a poor defender. Charley Rosen might be crazy sometimes with his ramblings, but he has mentioned how Pistol Pete might have been "the worst defender in NBA History".

I agree with Gervin's teams as well. However, he was also criticized off not doing much else besides scoring, and like Maravich, considered a poor defender. Another one Rosen's overrated list.

Off course, these 3 might have benefited from better teammates more earlier on... though I think T-Mac had more than enough help in Houston. He should have stayed in Toronto and I don't just say that because Toronto is my home town team. He and Vince Carter would have benefited playing with each other.

But also, they weren't without their flaws either, but I get what you mean of the overrating of team achievements.

[QUOTE=pauk]11. LeBron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Kevin Garnett
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley[/QUOTE]

KG>Dirk & Karl Malone

Legends66NBA7, I'm not saying that Maravich, McGrady and Gervin were the best players ever (or even in the conversation), I'm just pondering how their careers might be remembered differently if they had been surrounded by Hall-of-Fame talent during their peaks.

That's a luxury that Magic, Kobe, Bird, Russell and others had.

It's not a luxury that Oscar had.

[QUOTE=Kews1]KG>Dirk & Karl Malone[/QUOTE]

Why not, its a very close call

[QUOTE=WillC]Legends66NBA7, I'm not saying that Maravich, McGrady and Gervin were the best players ever (or even in the conversation), I'm just pondering how their careers might be remembered differently if they had been surrounded by Hall-of-Fame talent during their peaks.

That's a luxury that Magic, Kobe, Bird, Russell and others had.

It's not a luxury that Oscar had.[/QUOTE]

Oh, my mistake then. I would say they probably would be remembered differently.

I would also say Charles Barkley would be in that conversation too. How different is his legacy if he's with all-time great teams and multiple titles ? He's most likely a lock for Top 10.

off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Oh, my mistake then. I would say they probably would remembered differently.

I would also say Charles Barkley would be in that conversation too. How different is his legacy if he's with all-time great teams and multiple titles ? He's most likely a lock for Top 10.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

And that's why we need to keep it in mind that some of the legends of the game were fortuitous to land on such talented teams. [B]And thus we need to evaluate players based on their individual talent - not on their team's collective talent.[/B]

On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships [I]in any era[/I] even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.

[QUOTE=Kews1]Karl Malone is extremely low, under the likes of Rodman? Dirk? Wade?[/QUOTE]

I'll address all three of those tomorrow (still up, haven't slept yet), but Dirk & Wade are pretty clear cut

as for Rodman, I now place him higher, but this is my list as it stood last summer (July, I believe)...here's a good read:

[url]http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222[/url]

[QUOTE=Kews1]off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson[/QUOTE]

That means you have Lebron in top 10? Nice! :cheers:

[QUOTE=WillC]On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships [I]in any era[/I] even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.[/QUOTE]

While it's your opinion, why Wilt?

He needed two of the greatest teams of all-time to win titles, who won 68 and 69 games a piece in the regular season.

For the Sixers, Wilt goes 2-17 from the free throw line, in a Finals game no less, and it doesn't matter because the Sixers are blowing out the opposition.

[QUOTE=Kews1]off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson[/QUOTE]

Who did you replace kobe with in top 10
Lebron???

[QUOTE=fpliii]I'll address all three of those tomorrow (still up, haven't slept yet), but Dirk & Wade are pretty clear cut

as for Rodman, I now place him higher, but this is my list as it stood last summer (July, I believe)...here's a good read:

[url]http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222[/url][/QUOTE]

I think I've come across this before. I've heard this old Russell and Wilt story about the Total Rebound Rate% (at least I believe it's about that one). Upon hearing about the formula, Russell told Wilt about the formula saying how Rodman was a better rebounder and how he would grab more rebounds in their era. Which Wilt responded:

"But I grabed more rebounds than him !"

:oldlol:

I got find the link on YouTube again in which Russell tells that story.

[QUOTE=arifgokcen]Who did you replace kobe with in top 10
Lebron???[/QUOTE]

obviously, lets not kid ourselfs Lebron > Kobe. even if its only by 1 place right now.

Erm, damn this is tough.
11. Oscar Robertson (second most impressive statistic man behind Wilt)
12. Jerry West
13. Mr. Moses Malone
14. Julius Erving
15. LelBron
16. KG
17. Isiah Thomas/John Havlichek
18. John Havlichek/Isiah Thomas
19. Dirk
20. Stockton

Damn that was tough

[QUOTE=jalbert009]The consensus Top 10 in ISH in no order is usually:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

So, let us discuss our Top 11-20 lists. Here are some of the criteria we should consider.

-Peak Play
-Longetivity
-Over all Impact (Including making team mates better)
-Dominance (Including NBA Accolades)
-Playoffs Success (Not necessarily a Ring)

Here is my List:

[B]11. Oscar Robertson:[/B] Still the only player in history to average a triple-double in a season, he averaged 26.5 PPG, 9.5 APG and 7.5 RPG. He won 1 MVP and was a 12x All-Star.

[B]12. Jerry West:[/B] He won 1 Championship but made the NBA Finals ten times. He made 13 All-Stars games and averaged 27 PPG, 6.7 APG.

[B]13. Lebron James:[/B] He won 1x NBA Championship, 3x MVP and an 8x All-Star.

[B]14. Moses Malone:[/B] In 20 years he won 3 MVPs, 11 All-Stars and a NBA championship. He averaged 20.6 PPG and 12.2 RPG.

[B]15. Bob Cousy: [/B] He was a 6x NBA Champion, 13-time All-Star and 1x MVP.
[B]
16. John Havlicek:[/B] He was a 8x NBA Champion, 13x All-Star and made 26k+ career points.
[B]
17. Isiah Thomas:[/B] He was a 2x NBA Champion, 12x All-Star and averaged 19.2 PPG and 9.3 assists for his career.
[B]
18. Julius Erving:[/B] He won 1 NBA Championship, 1 MVP and was an 11x All-Star while averaging 22 PPG during his career.
[B]
19. David Robinson:[/B] He won 2x NBA Championships, 1xMVP, 10x All-stars and 1x DPOY.

[B]20. Kevin Garnett:[/B] 1x NBA Champion, 1x MVP, 14x All-Star, 1x DPOY and he led the NBA in rebounds for 4 seasons. He also made it to 12 All NBA defensive Teams.[/QUOTE]


Noticeable lack of Chuck. NBA championships are very important to you I think?

Based on the consensus Top 10 you have selected, let's start with the players who belong their for sure (no order):

Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
Jerry West
LeBron James
Julius Erving

These are the only 5 players you could make a case for Top 10.

[QUOTE=Kews1]obviously, lets not kid ourselfs Lebron > Kobe. even if its only by 1 place right now.[/QUOTE]

LeBron shouldn't even be in top 20 in my opinion.

[QUOTE=Gifted Mind]Based on the consensus Top 10 you have selected, let's start with the players who belong their for sure (no order):

Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
Jerry West
LeBron James
Julius Erving

These are the only 5 players you could make a case for Top 10.[/QUOTE]

I agree, but maybe less so for Erving, since were not counting ABA achievements.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I agree, but maybe less so for Erving, since were not counting ABA achievements.[/QUOTE]
Are we not? Well in the case we are not, yes he doesn't belong in that group. But if we are, he definitely does.

[QUOTE=Gifted Mind]Are we not? Well in the case we are not, yes he doesn't belong in that group. But if we are, he definitely does.[/QUOTE]

Well, the title stated "NBA Players of all-time", so I'm assuming were going by just NBA criteria.

Agree on both counts.

5 pages and walt frazier doesn't even break the top 30? that's a glaring omission.

here are the top 9 in no particular order, all of whom i have seen play with the exception of russell and robertson:

jordan
magic
bird
russell
robertson
lebron
duncan
olajuwon
shaq

they made every one around them better, even shaq-- who learned how to pass out of double teams by the time he played for the lakers thanks to pete newell's big man camp. all were positive-sum players with extraordinary BBIQ.

the next 11 are trickier but in no particular order, though i never saw pettitt play.

abdul-jabbar
chamberlain
bob pettitt
havlicek
bryant
barkley
stockton
rick barry
scotty pippen
dirk nowitzki
julius erving

the next 10 players becomes an increasingly-biased free-for-all.

[QUOTE=WockaVodka]They were 5th on d that season, they werne't much of a defense team when saunders took over for brown[/QUOTE]

He dominated the Larry Brown Pistons in 05 too until the ab tear in Game 5.

I've done exhaustive individual comparisons of Wade v. Thomas, Pippen, Drexler on here. I did one vs. Thomas about a month ago. You can look up the threads. Wade dominates them-- stats, advanced stats, accolades-- especially against Drexler. I'm not going to retype them. I save most of my words for publication now.

I haven't done any of Wade vs. Barkley or Malone, but there's no way either of them were better than Wade at his peak. Neither had the all-around game.

But, I'm comfortable with Wade outside the top 20 for now. It's too early yet. But, some of these lists have some of these other guys way too high.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]While it's your opinion, why Wilt?

He needed two of the greatest teams of all-time to win titles, who won 68 and 69 games a piece in the regular season.

For the Sixers, Wilt goes 2-17 from the free throw line, in a Finals game no less, and it doesn't matter because the Sixers are blowing out the opposition.[/QUOTE]

Chamberlain MADE those two team's the greatest of all-time. The Sixers were a 34-46 team the year before Wilt arrived. They would have the best record in the league for the next three years with Wilt, including that dominating title. And his old team, the Warriors, who had gone 48-32 and reached the Finals before they traded him at mid-season the next year, drafted Rick Barry and replaced Wilt with HOF center Nate Thurmond...and they would not beat that 48-32 record as Warrior teammates the years they played together after that (which included a LOADED Warrior team going 44-37 in the '67 seasons.)

And the Warriors and Wilt would battle three times in the playoffs after that trade, and Wilt's teams bombed them in each.

And after Wilt left Philly, they not only dropped from 62-20 (and 68-13 in '67) down to 55-27, they were blown out in the first round of the playoffs, and then declined rapidly after that. By Wilt's last season, in 72-73, the Sixers were the laughingstock of the league, going 9-73.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain IMMEDIATELY led the 68-69 Lakers to a then best-ever LA record. And he did so by basically replacing THREE players (All-Star guard Archie Clark, journeyman center Darrall Imhoff, and then Gail Goodrich, who was lost to expansion, and not replaced.) So, Wilt basically replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg. And, as was often the case, Jerry West also missed 20 games that season.

In Wilt's five seasons in LA, they went to FOUR Finals, and won that dominating title in 71-72 (69-13...and then went 60-22 in his LAST season.)

After Wilt retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 47-35 record, and were murdered in the first round of the playoffs. The next year they fell to 30-52. They traded for Kareem, and all he could do was get them to a 40-42 record. It wasn't until Magic arrived in '80 that the Lakers picked up where Chamberlain left them.

As for that "2-17" comment. as ALWAYS, it was Wilt's IMPACT at the line that made a difference. Do you realize that Wilt had every Warrior in foul trouble in that game? And that his Sixers attempted 64 FTAs to SF's 29? And that they blew away the Warriors from the line in that series? And that EVERY Chamberlain team either LED the league in FTAs, or were near the top in that category?

You want a great example of Wilt's IMPACT at the line? In Wilt's 68-69 season with LA, the Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs. And they would easily lead in that post-season too. Early in the next season, in game nine, Chamberlain shredded his knee, and missed almost the entire season. The Lakers dropped from first to 12th (in a 14 team league) in FTAs. THEN, Chamberlain returned for the playoffs, and guess what? The Lakers shot 200 more FTAs than the next best team in that post-season, and shot 96 more FTAs just against the Knicks in the Finals.

Those that knock Wilt's FT shooting (and no one is arguing that it was bad) need to realize that his IMPACT more than made up for it. BTW, Shaq had some horrible Finals (he even won a ring when he shot 36-93 in a series); and Russell not only had some poor FT shooting post-seasons, he also had some downright ugly FG% post-seasons, as well. Yet Shaq and Russell combined for 15 rings.

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[QUOTE=Gifted Mind]Based on the consensus Top 10 you have selected, let's start with the players who belong their for sure (no order):

Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
Jerry West
LeBron James
Julius Erving

These are the only 5 players you could make a case for Top [B]11-20[/B].[/QUOTE]

Fixed

I agree though except for Erving. But the first 4 you mentioned seem to be a lock for everyone's Top 11-20. The next 6 seem to depend on peoples personal preferences. I have noticed a few posters here do not value some of the older generation of players from 70's or earlier and seem to overate the more contemporary players.

[QUOTE=WillC]Exactly.

And that's why we need to keep it in mind that some of the legends of the game were fortuitous to land on such talented teams. [B]And thus we need to evaluate players based on their individual talent - not on their team's collective talent.[/B]

On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships [I]in any era[/I] even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.[/QUOTE]

Basketball is a TEAM sport. I believe another poster made a good point a couple of years ago...

That, unless you could take, say all of the Top-20 all-time greats, and somehow put them onto absolutely equal (and healthy rosters), with the same coaching, and perhaps even the same system...there is simply no way of comparing TEAM success in these all-time discussions. I have long maintained that KG would have won considerably more rings in his career, had he not been saddled with poor rosters in the prime of his career.

And Oscar's TEAM success is under-rated, as well. He not only carried a 55-25 Royals team in the mid-60's, but he played on FOUR Milwaukee teams that went 66-16 (and won a title), 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (and lost a game seven in the Finals.) And while there were other factors, as well, the Bucks immediately plummetted to a 38-44 record after Oscar retired.

He certainly has an indivdual resume to be considered a Top-10 player, though. Personally, I have him in the 12th to 15th range.

[QUOTE=TMacMagic]LeBron shouldn't even be in top 20 in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

And why is that?

Speaking of bad-ass athletes...how about a prime Hulk Hogan? I have always found it fascinating what eating vitamins and saying his prayers at night did for that guy.

And, if he had the momentum and the fan support...well, no one could take on the Hulkster.

[QUOTE=jlauber]Speaking of bad-ass athletes...how about a prime Hulk Hogan? I have always found it fascinating what eating vitamins and saying his prayers at night did for that guy.

And, if he had the momentum and the fan support...well, no one could take on the Hulkster.[/QUOTE]

Well that was random

[QUOTE=jalbert009]Fixed

I agree though except for Erving. But the first 4 you mentioned seem to be a lock for everyone's Top 11-20. The next 6 seem to depend on peoples personal preferences. I have noticed a few posters here do not value some of the older generation of players from 70's or earlier and seem to overate the more contemporary players.[/QUOTE]

Normally when rankings are done, ABA is included. And if you include ABA, Erving is in that group. I don't value his ABA achievements equivalent to NBA achievements, but give them the credit they deserve.

[QUOTE=Kews1]And why is that?[/QUOTE]

2 many other good players, lb still has a lot to learn.

[QUOTE=jlauber]As for that "2-17" comment. as ALWAYS, it was Wilt's IMPACT at the line that made a difference. Do you realize that Wilt had every Warrior in foul trouble in that game? And that his Sixers attempted 64 FTAs to SF's 29? And that they blew away the Warriors from the line in that series? And that EVERY Chamberlain team either LED the league in FTAs, or were near the top in that category?[/QUOTE]

J, my stance on the 2-17 comment is meant to show that he finally had more than enough help to overcome any crucial problems he had on the free throw line. It wouldn't matter if Wilt was going 2-17 or 2-12 in Finals games, he had the help to complement the rest of his skills and show full impact on the game.

Never said Wilt didn't help those teams become great, especially the Sixers.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]J, my stance on the 2-17 comment is meant to show that he finally had more than enough help to overcome any crucial problems he had on the free throw line. It wouldn't matter if Wilt was going 2-17 or 2-12 in Finals games, he had the help to complement the rest of his skills and show full impact on the game.

Never said Wilt didn't help those teams become great, especially the Sixers.[/QUOTE]

Well, to be honest, my response was directed more at other posters on this board. To merely look at Wilt's poor FT shooting, without putting it into it's full context is misleading. Chamberlain's teammates benefitted from the pounding that Chamberlain leveled against his opponents in terms of fouls. He was getting them into the bonus much earlier, and more often, as well as reducing defensive effectiveness because of foul trouble. Furthermore, Wilt himself, was benefitting from the most "and-one's" in NBA history, as well as the mant "3-to-make-2" situations he had (and while the misses still counted, a 2-3 from the line was the equivalent to 2-2.)

And, as I pointed out, somehow Russell's teams were able to overcome his less than stellar FT%'s (as well as some poor FG% series), and Shaq won title with awful FT shooting, as well.

Instead of those ripping Chamberlain for his poor FT shooting, they should look at the entire picture. Sure, Wilt might have won a couple of more titles had he made some more FTs, but the fact remains, without Chamberlain, those teams probably would have been first round cannon-fodde, or worse, without Wilt (which, was, in fact the case.)

[QUOTE=TMacMagic]2 many other good players, lb still has a lot to learn.[/QUOTE]

theres no way you can name 20 players better than Lebron James without being extremely biased.

[QUOTE=Kews1]theres no way you can name 20 players better than Lebron James without being extremely biased.[/QUOTE]


The guy is a useless troll. Just put him on your ignore lists. LeBron is better than his favorite player homobe.