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Considering OP is a Dirk's fanatic and hates KG, it automatically invalidates his [I]opinion[/I].
Oh, and in case anyone missed, KG already won the ring as a "lead dog", [I]post-prime[/I]. Dirk doesnt have more rings either, while having much better teams through most of his career.
It is because Garnett didn't have as good of teams as Dirk did when he was the lead dog.
When Garnett had a good team such as 2004 and 2008, he made it to the WCF and won the title. The only reason why they only made it to the WCF in 2004 is because Sam Cassell and Troy Hudson, the starting PG and the backup PG of the team were both injured in the WCF. Garnett had to play PG himself in that series. If those two were healthy in that series, Twolves could have very well reached the Finals and maybe even win it and we would be talking about two championships for KG here.
It is too bad that injuries ultimately held KG back from winning more than one title. It held him back in 2004 and it held him back after 2008 when he got injured himself and was never the same.
Most people ignore the fact that Minny's FO was not much better than the current Knicks' FO. Not to mention the Joe Smith fiasco. The one time KG had even decent help, Minny was two wins from making the Finals and having home court in it. Cassell getting hurt cost the T-Wolves a Finals appearance and possibly a title.
And KG never lost in the first round with a 67 win team.
[QUOTE=D.J.]Most people ignore the fact that Minny's FO was not much better than the current Knicks' FO. Not to mention the Joe Smith fiasco. The one time KG had even decent help, Minny was two wins from making the Finals and having home court in it. Cassell getting hurt cost the T-Wolves a Finals appearance and possibly a title.
And KG never lost in the first round with a 67 win team.[/QUOTE]
KG never had a 67 win team, stupid argument :lol
[QUOTE=bmulls]KG never had a 67 win team, stupid argument :lol[/QUOTE]
He had a 66 win team in Boston.
[QUOTE=D.J.]He had a 66 win team in Boston.[/QUOTE]
:oldlol: Iced....
I forgot to add that KG has never lost as the favorite either. Every time KG was suppose to win a playoff series, he got the job done. Dirk? We all heard of what happened in the 1st round in 2007 and the Finals of 2006.
Ever since Dirk was the #1 option he has always had mediocre teams at best. Don't act like he's been playing with ****ing Ray Allen and Paul Pierce..
Dirk's 06-07 team was trash, it's a miracle that they got 67 wins..
KG got carried enough times with boston.. dirk, never.
prime KG actually missed the playoffs multiple times.. sad.
Id love it if we had ISH in the 60s and some archives to see the same kind of idiots who dont believe KG led the 08 Celtics to a rin calling Bill Russell a Robin type because Sam Jones or Hondo led the teams in scoring. And even that really wouldnt be the same because KG actually led the 08 Celtics in playoff scoring. And 4th quarter scoring. While being the DPOY..on a defense first team....and leading rebounder...and the on the floor and in practice leader from an emotional standpoint.
Really....picture this happening with anyone else...
The leagues DPOY....the guy 3rd in MVP voting...all NBA first team...leads his team in playoff scoring/rebounds as well...puts up like 27/16 totally dominating the closeout game...clear best player for the teams in the playoffs.
Doesnt win finals MVP because someone else had a 38 point loss in the series.
Hes then said to not be the teams leader/best player/whatever.
The DPOY...is also his teams leading scorer in the playoffs...and has the least off games...the only one of the big 3 who played better in the playoffs than regular season.
But he didnt lead his team to a title.
Its just a joke. If KGs first half destruction of the Lakers in game 6 to open up the lead wasnt a snatch the ring "This is MY time!" moment nothing ever was.
He led that team. Period. The other players were calling him the best leader they ever saw from day one. Doc pretty much said he changed everything about their lockerroom. KGs intensity and defense meant more to that team than anything. And he led them in scoring too...
But he didnt lead the team......
[QUOTE=D.J.]Most people ignore the fact that Minny's FO was not much better than the current Knicks' FO. Not to mention the Joe Smith fiasco. The one time KG had even decent help, Minny was two wins from making the Finals and having home court in it. Cassell getting hurt cost the T-Wolves a Finals appearance and possibly a title.
And KG never lost in the first round with a 67 win team.[/QUOTE]
Did you see the roster of that team Dirk to 67 wins? Until the 09 Cavs, they were easily the worst 67 win team ever in terms of talent. They choked, no one is denying that. But KG was too busy not making the playoffs in his prime at the time. With Dirk you are guaranteed 50 wins and playoff every season. (not counting this strike-shotened season). People talk about how great KG is as a 2 way player, but the man missed the playoffs in his prime 3 times in a row. No way does that happen with Dirk.
And why do people keep saying Dirk's teams were built to suit him? Until 2010, that wasn't even close to true. Did people not notice Raef Lafrentz, Shawn Bradley, and Calvin Booth starting at center next to Dirk? Or how about when they tried to use a frontcourt of Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, and Dirk? Yea, thats really building around Dirk to his strengths :oldlol: Did people forget before Marion and Butler showed up the Mavs were regularly destroyed by opposing wing players and got not post scoring from their centers? Dirk's teams were far from stacked.
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]:oldlol: Iced....
I forgot to add that KG has never lost as the favorite either. Every time KG was suppose to win a playoff series, he got the job done. Dirk? We all heard of what happened in the 1st round in 2007 and the Finals of 2006.[/QUOTE]
The Mavs weren't a clear cut favorite going into the 06 Finals at all.
and any person who actually paid attention to basketball knew Avery made a mistake of massive proportions when he foolishly gave up the chance to knock GS out of the playoffs the last day of the season that year. It wasn't an upset at all regardless of the seeding.
GS had been murdering Dallas for quite a while at that point. It was something like 3 seasons running they had the Mavs number. They were perfectly constructed to take out Dallas but Avery in his hubris thought he could out coach the guy who taught him how to coach and helped create Dirk. On top of that, the dumbass decided to dump the one single advantage they had, their size at the C spot, and placed Devean f-ing George at C to try and match the run and gun style of GS even though they had not played that type of ball for nearly two years and didn't have the PGs to do it.
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.
Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?[/QUOTE]
Absolutely. He won a ring with a bunch of 3rd and 4th options.
lol using people's logic there then Lefraud has choked 3 times already (boston, mavs, and magic) to dirk's 2, so lefraud is worse than both dirk and garnett
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]And why do people keep saying Dirk's teams were built to suit him? Until 2010, that wasn't even close to true. Did people not notice Raef Lafrentz, Shawn Bradley, and Calvin Booth starting at center next to Dirk? Or how about when they tried to use a frontcourt of Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, and Dirk? Yea, thats really building around Dirk to his strengths :oldlol: Did people forget before Marion and Butler showed up the Mavs were regularly destroyed by opposing wing players and got not post scoring from their centers? Dirk's teams were far from stacked.[/QUOTE]
Lmao, Dampier was a great lowpost defender
Harris and Howard were one of the best defensive combos in the league....Howard was actually a pretty amazing player in his day, Howard is actually a criminally underrated player.
Stack was the one particularly poor fit.
[QUOTE=noosaman]lol using people's logic there then Lefraud has choked 3 times already (boston, mavs, and magic) to dirk's 2, so lefraud is worse than both dirk and garnett[/QUOTE]
Lebron didn't choke in 09. In the 2011 Finals? Most definitely. And he was awful in game 5 of the 2010 playoffs. Dirk is one of my favorite players, but he definitely choked in 07. Evev if his team wasn't as good as people pumped them up to be.
[QUOTE=Rubio2Gasol]Lmao, Dampier was a great lowpost defender
Harris and Howard were one of the best defensive combos in the league....Howard was actually a pretty amazing player in his day, Howard is actually a criminally underrated player.
Stack was the one particularly poor fit.[/QUOTE]
Dampier guarded guys like duncan and shaq well but that 04-05 postseason was comical. He couldn't stay on the floor for more than 2 minutes without picking up fouls. He eventually got replaced by Diop thats right Diop in big moments in 05-06, thats how bad he was.
Howard was good but had horrendous court vision and was selfish on offense.
They were still worse than Cassell and Sprewell who Garnett worked with.
[QUOTE=Rubio2Gasol]Lmao, Dampier was a great lowpost defender
Harris and Howard were one of the best defensive combos in the league....Howard was actually a pretty amazing player in his day, Howard is actually a criminally underrated player.
Stack was the one particularly poor fit.[/QUOTE]
Dirk wasn't a fan of playing with Harris. Plus, Harris got his handed by anyone he was guarding during the 07 playoffs. Howard was a good player, but calling him "amazing" is a little much. Injuries limited him over the years. Stackhouse was wasn't a bad fit. They could have used a slasher over him, but he was a better fit than Jamison.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Dirk wasn't a fan of playing with Harris. Plus, Harris got his handed by anyone he was guarding during the 07 playoffs. Howard was a good player, but calling him "amazing" is a little much. Injuries limited him over the years. Stackhouse was wasn't a bad fit. They could have used a slasher over him, but he was a better fit than Jamison.[/QUOTE]
You think KG was a fan of playing with Sprewell and Sczerbiak? :roll:
That was a pretty good team man , anyway you cut it and it was accommodating to Dirk for the most part.
Better than KG's definitely, Cassel was a reliable player, but the rest of those guys just had a very bad team dynamic, KG was feuding with Wally and Sprewell was...well Sprewell.
I asked this question in the Top 11-20 players thread as well... Which Maverick teams had the most talent during the 2000's ? Also, which years were they considered the clear cut best ?
i dont care, i'm taking KG any day
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Did you see the roster of that team Dirk to 67 wins? Until the 09 Cavs, they were easily the worst 67 win team ever in terms of talent. They choked, no one is denying that. But KG was too busy not making the playoffs in his prime at the time. With Dirk you are guaranteed 50 wins and playoff every season. (not counting this strike-shotened season). People talk about how great KG is as a 2 way player, but the man missed the playoffs in his prime 3 times in a row. No way does that happen with Dirk.[/QUOTE]
That Dallas team in '07 lost just 15 times all year. There's no excuse to lose in round 1 to a team that struggled to stay over .500 and went 16-5 in their final 21 just to make the playoffs. At least if Dirk or another top player went down, you could see why they would lose. They didn't lose because of injuries. They lost because they were badly outcoached and Dirk not stepping up.
As for KG, tell me how he should be blamed for lack of team success in Minnesota? Cassell missed 23 games in '05 and Sprewell was utter shit, yet Minny still won 44 games. In '06, guys were traded and Cassell and Sprewell were both gone. In '07, the best players after KG were Ricky Davis and Mark Blount. There's a reason Minny hasn't cracked 30 wins since KG left. Dirk's supporting cast was way better than KG's. Dirk had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Nick Van Exel, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Shawn Bradley. He had scorers, jump shooting big men, elite shot blocking, a very good point guard, respectable bench players. Outside of Cassell and Sprewell, who did KG have? Wally Szczerbiak, Ricky Davis, Troy Hudson, Trenton Hassell, Michael Olowokandi. Very good supporting cast. :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.
Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?[/QUOTE]
Not sure why not. He took a team without much in 06 all the way to the finals...going through the Spurs in the midst of only losing 1 series in three years.
[QUOTE=D.J.]That Dallas team in '07 lost just 15 times all year. There's no excuse to lose in round 1 to a team that struggled to stay over .500 and went 16-5 in their final 21 just to make the playoffs. At least if Dirk or another top player went down, you could see why they would lose. They didn't lose because of injuries. They lost because they were badly outcoached and Dirk not stepping up.
As for KG, tell me how he should be blamed for lack of team success in Minnesota? Cassell missed 23 games in '05 and Sprewell was utter shit, yet Minny still won 44 games. In '06, guys were traded and Cassell and Sprewell were both gone. In '07, the best players after KG were Ricky Davis and Mark Blount. There's a reason Minny hasn't cracked 30 wins since KG left. Dirk's supporting cast was way better than KG's. Dirk had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Nick Van Exel, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Shawn Bradley. He had scorers, jump shooting big men, elite shot blocking, a very good point guard, respectable bench players. Outside of Cassell and Sprewell, who did KG have? Wally Szczerbiak, Ricky Davis, Troy Hudson, Trenton Hassell, Michael Olowokandi. Very good supporting cast. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Most of this is true, but you can't discount how much better the Warriors were than their record. Nearly all of their good players were hurt for big chunks of the year....and they were all healthy and on fire going into the playoffs.
Combine that with the style they played and the coaching of Nellie vs Avery...and you had the perfect storm.
That does not excuse Dirk from playing like ass, but between the matchups and Avery losing his ****ing mind...it honestly wasn't a huge shock to a lot of Mavs fans. I was furious when we drew the Warriors in the first round.
I also think you under-rate the 04 team for the Wolves. Not great or anything, but not bad. A lot like the 07 Mavs. A team that had no business winning 67 games...that was absurd.
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Most of this is true, but you can't discount how much better the Warriors were than their record. Nearly all of their good players were hurt for big chunks of the year....and they were all healthy and on fire going into the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
They weren't that much better than their record indicated. They were probably a 45 win team if everyone was healthy, but their first round series win was largely because of Don Nelson and Avery Johnson not making any adjustments. Golden State got smacked around by Utah the next round, so they really weren't that good of a team.
[QUOTE]Combine that with the style they played and the coaching of Nellie vs Avery...and you had the perfect storm.[/QUOTE]
But all that could have been avoided had Avery Johnson made adjustments. Could have been an easy five game series win.
[QUOTE]That does not excuse Dirk from playing like ass, but between the matchups and Avery losing his ****ing mind...it honestly wasn't a huge shock to a lot of Mavs fans. I was furious when we drew the Warriors in the first round.[/QUOTE]
Granted 3 of their 15 losses were to GS, but the Mavs were still a 67 win team. Playoffs is a whole nother ball game.
[QUOTE]I also think you under-rate the 04 team for the Wolves. Not great or anything, but not bad.[/QUOTE]
Not at all. I've praised that team numerous times and mentioned several times that was the only year in Minny that KG had any decent, consistent help. Sam Cassell's injury cost them the Western Conference and quite possibly a title.
[QUOTE]A lot like the 07 Mavs. A team that had no business winning 67 games...that was absurd.[/QUOTE]
Maybe not 67 wins, but still 55-60 easily. The '07 Mavs were a deeper team.
[quote=SilkkTheShocker]And its not even close, really.[/quote]
LOL @ your title. Typical troll title. More successful? Of course. That doesn't help Dirk top Garnett any day of any week and you know it.
More successful in that he was much more fortunate through out his career. Even KG's best teams in minnesota were comparable to most of Dirk's worst.
[QUOTE=KingBeasley08]Does anyone dispute that..?[/QUOTE]
Only racist and stupid people.
[QUOTE=04mzwach]LOL @ your title. Typical troll title. More successful? Of course. That doesn't help Dirk top Garnett any day of any week and you know it.[/QUOTE]
Dirk >>>> KG
Like I said, give me the lead-dog.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Dirk >>>> KG
Like I said, give me the lead-dog.[/QUOTE]
Stop acting like you've seen KG in his prime. You started watching basketball in 2010 at the earliest.
[QUOTE=CJ Mustard]Stop acting like you've seen KG in his prime. You started watching basketball in 2010 at the earliest.[/QUOTE]
I think you are still upset about your dogs.hit franchise trading Dirk for Robert Traylor.
[QUOTE=04mzwach]LOL @ your title. Typical troll title. More successful? Of course. That doesn't help Dirk top Garnett any day of any week and you know it.[/QUOTE]
At least he acknowledges his limitations. :lol
[QUOTE=DMAVS41]Not sure why not. He took a team without much in 06 all the way to the finals...going through the Spurs in the midst of only losing 1 series in three years.[/QUOTE]
That Mavs team was #1 in offensive rating. They were much better than Minny in '04.
What the Wolves lose on defense they don't get much back on offense. Not sure why people forget KG in his prime was a monster offensively.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]I think you are still upset about your dogs.hit franchise trading Dirk for Robert Traylor.[/QUOTE]
The Bucks didn't trade Dirk, they moved up to get Tractor Traylor. They were picking on behalf of the Mavs at #9. But you wouldn't know this because you weren't watching basketball back then.
Like heck Dirk was more successful as lead dog over KG!!! I will say they were even given what they were dealt with. Dirk had a team particular built around him. Each season Mark Cuban would spend $$$ trying to get the right parts around Dirk. KG did not have that option here in Minnesota. To me, I still rank KG over Dirk because KG was a better all-around player. Let Dirk try to guard the point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward, or a center, and then carry a team on the offensive end like KG had to do day in and day out. Puh-lease.
[quote=SilkkTheShocker]Dirk >>>> KG
Like I said, give me the lead-dog.[/quote]
KG >>>>> Dirk
OP has a real thirst for the topic:
[url]http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=271953[/url]
Duncan was more successful than Shaq and Karl Malone more successful than Barkley. Magic was more successful than Bird. If you go by playoff rounds and great franchise competition, Magic was the most successful guy in the modern era - moreso than Jordan.
Teams are built around certain players. You get guys to compliment your stars. Dallas is a good organization and they've done that throughout Dirk's career. Minny wasn't a good organization so they didn't build anything. KG had to be the many things that the team and organization wasn't. Dirk wasn't a multiple faceted player at anythime in his career. So if the GM doesn't get defense, rebounds, other shooters, leaders, step up guys in the playoffs, and setup guys his team can't win. Minny was never able to bring in those type of players [B]at all [/B]- and the one time they did, their health gave away.
Dirk in a bad organization/coaches would more than likely be Alex English or Kiki Vandeweghe.
In terms of who I who want as an alpha dog type give me Dirk, even though KG was a very good-great scorer who I also consider an alpha dog. But I wouldn't put KG on Dirk's, Barkley, Petitt's, or Malone's level in those terms. Those four I feel put the foot on the gas more scoring than Timmy or KG. However KG and Timmy come up big in the huge moments and were known to average around 25 a night.
But in terms of who is flat out the better player, give me KG all day over Dirk. This is the case of the epic great scorer with an average to good all around game against the epic great all around player who's a very good to great scorer. In this partiucular case, I go for the epic great all around player. At times though I will go for the epic great scorer, it depends on the comparison.
...I can't really disagree with OP here. To be fair though, KG didn't have a lot of help in Minnesota, where Dirk tended to have better teams.
[QUOTE=SilkkTheShocker]Dirk >>>> KG
Like I said, give me the lead-dog.[/QUOTE]
This your point was debunked MANY times, and yet you keep repeating it and remaking the same thread over and over again. Its obvious you are just a troll, hence welcome to the ignore list :rolleyes:
Dirk is the more valuable piece. You can pick up a few role players to give you what KG would give you, but Dirk is special.
Dirk is one of the few players who can be a true number 1 option on a winning team. There aren't many in NBA history, most of them are top players.
You are just nit picking if you talk about Dirks lack of D or rebounding, such things are easily picked up (as you saw by guys like Marion and Chandler who, while good, were nowhere near all-star level impact.)
-Smak