1968 NBA Finals (BOS vs LAL) Retroactive Finals MVP Thread

[QUOTE=fpliii]np

for late games played in LA we're missing minutes played: The Globe only carried basic scores for those nights (since the paper was likely close to going to press when the games ended), and unfortunately the Times didn't keep track of that stat for another few years...my apologies, but the rest of the info should be complete (and the articles are very interesting)

you'd mentioned 66 (which we'll get to after this year and the 67 Finals voting is complete), are there any other years you're interested in?[/QUOTE]

To be honest, I'm very interested in any & all series from the 60s. It's an intruiging era to me. You'll hopefully get through all the Finals in due course, which is more than I could ask for :cheers:

[QUOTE=oolalaa][B][SIZE="4"]Game 1[/SIZE][/B]
West - 25/3/3 (7/24, 11/13)....43 minutes
Baylor - 24/12/0 (11/31, 2/2)....42
Russell - 19/25/3 (5/16, 9/14)....48
Hondo - 19/9/8 (7/17, 5/5)....47

Boston wins 107-101

-- The fast pace in the 1st half suited the Lakers (They were 61-48 up at the interval). Both teams were shooting the ball well but, because of the speed in which the shots were being chucked up, Russell in particular wasn't always in the ideal rebounding position. Russell commented after the game "I had to tell my players (Presumingly Bailey Howell) that he was taking bad shots even though he had hit 3 in a row". A great example of Russell's basketball IQ and leadership.
-- West and Baylor then combined to choke away a 15 point lead with 18 minutes to go. West went 4/18 in the 2nd half, including a 1/9 4th quarter. Baylor went 5/17 in the 2nd half. This was the overwhelming reason the Lakers lost. Their 2 stars went cold. Both West and Baylor blamed tiredness, which is a little odd considering that L.A had an 8 day layoff before the start of game 1 to rest up.
-- Russell scored "some" of his 19 points in the "vital minutes" of the 4th quarter.


Player of the game - Russell



[B][SIZE="4"]Game 2[/SIZE][/B]
West - 35/6/6 (14/28, 7/9)....40
Baylor - 23/7/6 (9/17, 5/8)....30
Russell - 15/24/5 (5/13, 5/6)....48
Hondo - 24/6/4 (9/25, 6/8)....48

Lakers win 123-113

-- The Lakers pushed the tempo and Boston couldn't keep up.
-- Baylor sat with 5 fouls mid-way through the 3rd period but came back in with 7:10 left in the 4th. He then effectively sealed the game for the Lakers with 4 steals in quick succession, as the lakers went on a 13-6 run. He also made key contributions in the early 3rd quarter spurt that would ultimately be the game winning lead.


Player of the game - West



[B][SIZE="4"]Game 3[/SIZE][/B]
West - 33/7/9 (12/24, 9/12)....44
Baylor - 28/18/3 (12/25, 4/5)....42
Russell - 25/16/9 (9/16, 7/10)....48
Hondo - 27/10/5 (11/23, 5/6)....48

Boston wins 127-119

-- The Lakers were playing catch-up the entire game.
-- Russell was at his defensive/shot blocking best. Was switching out onto the perimiter to guard Baylor (And others) in the 1st half. He also made 3 key plays in the final 5 minutes (A leaping "save", a reverse dunk and blocked 2 shots).
-- Larry Siegfried had a big game. 26 points & 7 assists, including 6 clutch free throws late in the 4th quarter.


Player of the game - Russell



[B][SIZE="4"]Game 4[/SIZE][/B]
West - 38/10/5 (13/21, 12/15)....44
Baylor - 30/10/5 (12/21, 6/8)....45
Russell - 11/22/6 (2/7, 7/19)....48
Hondo - 23/7/8 (8/21, 7/7)....48

Lakers win 118-105

-- Van Breda Kolff got tossed from the game after picking up a 2nd technical mid-way through the 3rd quarter. That was his 28th technical of the season.
-- Big contributions from Archie Clark (17 second half points) and Imhoff (20 boards & 2 key blocks in the last couple of minutes).
-- Russell missed 6 straight free throws during the final 7 minutes of the 4th Q.
-- Playing in garbage time with the game already wrapped up, West sprained his left ankle after a collision with Havlicek.


Player of the game - West



[B][SIZE="4"]Game 5[/SIZE][/B]
West - 35/4/6 (14/24, 7/8)....41
Baylor - 24/15/6 (9/26, 6/12)....48
Russell - 22/25/5 (8/20, 6/9)....53
Hondo - 31/10/8 (10/26, 11/14)....53

Boston wins 120-117 in OT

-- West received pain killing injections before the game and at half time for his sprained ankle.
-- Baylor missed a game winning 25 foot buzzer beater at the end of regulation. Incidentally, a double dribble called on Russell with 3 seconds left in regulation set up that game winning chance.
-- Russell blocked a Baylor turnaround jumper that would have tied the game with less than 30 seconds remaining in OT. He managed to divert the block to Don Nelson who was then fouled by Baylor. Nelson missed the 1st free throw but made the all important 2nd one to give Boston a 3 point cushion with seconds remaining. Nelson was big throughout the game, too (26 points, 12 boards and 4 points in the OT).
-- Hondo chipped in with 4 points in the OT, including the go-ahead jumper from the right corner with 38 seconds left.
-- Van Breda Kolff partly blamed the Lakers not boxing out on the boards for the loss. Siegfried scored a go ahead bucket from an offensive rebound with a minute to go in the OT.


Player of the game - Havlicek



[B][SIZE="4"]Game 6[/SIZE][/B]
West - 29/5/5 (8/19, 6/7)....42
Baylor - 28/13/6 (13/22, 2/4)....43
Russell - 12/19/6 (5/7, 2/2)....47
Hondo - 40/10/7 (14/28, 12/12)....47

Boston wins 124-109

-- The Lakers were comprehensively outplayed in every facet of the game. The Celtics seemingly couldn't miss. L.A appeared lethargic (West, still playing with a sore ankle, was "sub-par"). The Los Angeles crowd were booing their team as they went off at half time with a 20 point deficit.
-- Hondo went 8/14 with 22 points in the 1st half.
-- Baliey Howell saved his best for last. 36 points & 11 rebounds.
-- The L.A Times had Hondo with 34 points, instead of his actual 40 :oldlol:


Player of the game - Havlicek




It's interesting, Havlicek's name was hardly ever mentioned at all regarding the first 4 games. He seemed like an after thought. He clearly wasn't heavily involved in the key moments & periods. He was indeed instrumental in last 2 games, when the series was balanced on a knife-edge, but is that enough to gift him the FMVP?

Russell was the clear, unquestioned leader of the Celtics (He was their friggin coach, don't forget!!). It was his drive and competitiveness that pushed and motivated those around him. Hondo was a very talented player (The best player Russell played with during his 13 year career), but he was merely "one of the guys", one of Bill Russell's teammates. A very good argument can be made that he became the Cs best player in 68/69, but that was primarily because Russ was running on fumes by the post season.


Basically, the question is, does Havlicek's extra 10 points per game, and his great close-out game 6, make up for Russell's vastly superior defense/shot blocking impact, his 13 extra rebounds per game and obviously superior "intangibles"? Nope, not to me. I think Russell is deserving of the FMVP.[/QUOTE]

Great job breaking it down. I now wish I hadn't done the same thing myself...

My only disagreement is with game five. I have Russell as the player of the game over Hondo. The numbers are pretty comparable however Russell made the key play in overtime and also had a few other blocks down the stretch to secure the series pivotal game.

It is his clutch play (even considering the second time he could have wore goat horns with that double dribble) coupled with his on point coaching analysis (and needed adjustments) throughout the series that pushed me in his favor just over Havlicek for the series MVP. Hondo's best game was game six, the closeout game, usually where Russell made his mark, however in this instance, the game was a blowout, so those 40 points aren't quite as big as some of his 40+ games the next finals.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Great job breaking it down. I now wish I hadn't done the same thing myself...

My only disagreement is with game five. I have Russell as the player of the game over Hondo. The numbers are pretty comparable however Russell made the key play in overtime and also had a few other blocks down the stretch to secure the series pivotal game.

It is his clutch play (even considering the second time he could have wore goat horns with that double dribble) coupled with his on point coaching analysis (and needed adjustments) throughout the series that pushed me in his favor just over Havlicek for the series MVP. Hondo's best game was game six, the closeout game, usually where Russell made his mark, however in this instance, the game was a blowout, so those 40 points aren't quite as big as some of his 40+ games the next finals.[/QUOTE]

You could be right about game 5. It was almost too close to call for me. I guess I would say this....Russell may well have been "clutch", but so was Havlicek, perhaps even more so. A double dribble during the most crucial posession of the entire season is not something I'm willing to ignore. Like you said, he did make some plays in the OT that somewhat made up for it, but he didn't score 4 points or hit the go ahead/game winning jumper that ultimately won the game for Boston, Havlieck did.

And your comment about game 6 being a blowout, therefore Hondo's 40 points weren't as impressive as other games, is not necessarily wrong, but it's double edged. It was a blowout primarily because of Havlicek's relentless scoring through the first 3 quarters.

With that being said, I don't want to defend Hondo too much because I honestly believe Russell deserved the FMVP for the reasons you mentioned.

I'm old enough to have seen this series, and I can remember watching at least some of it on ABC at the time, though I must say that most of my "memories" seem to be quite far from reality.

Before reading this thread, including the google documents and oolala's breakdown, I would have said Havlicek, but now I'm somewhat inclined to side with Russell. I'm curious as to why some of you guys, Regul8r in particular, are giving it to Havlicek. I'm siding with Russell at the moment, but my mind can change, and like I said, had I not taken the time to actually read the document and the responses in this thread before responding, I would have said Havlicek.

Well, the argument is between Russell and Havlicek. Havlicek had better stats, but Russell was probably the greater impact. That, and seeing how it was still Russell's team at the time, it'd be fair to give it to Russell. Defense was there and evident throughout, still put up solid stats, broke down the Lakers, etc.

Havlicek still played well though and could have an argument due to great defense also, solid shooting, impressive stats, etc. But [b]Russell[/b] seems to be the MVP here.

[IMG]http://cdn.wbur.org/media/special/2010/wbur_0602_celtics-lakers/images/celtics-lakers-1968.jpg[/IMG]


[QUOTE=NumberSix]foul[/QUOTE]
Not in a man's league

haha

Russell has a case of being the FMVP for every 11 Celtics rings. Maybe that year if there was a real voting, people back then would choose Hondo over Russell just because they would be tired or bored of Russell 7-8 possible FMVPs.

[QUOTE=julizaver]Russell has a case of being the FMVP for every 11 Celtics rings.[/QUOTE]

Obviously not, as he didn't win FMVP for their 11th ring in reality, when the award existed. Meaning that the maximum he could possibly have is 10, and thus the task is determining how many of those 10 FMVPs he would have won had the award existed for his entire career rather than the last year of it.

some great discussion so far, interesting points have been raised about the last two games of the series

(btw KG215 I haven't forgotten your request, I'm slowly collecting data)

[URL="http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3781699&postcount=3"]Gifted Mind's post[/URL]

(copied from OP, just added this edit) Petroslav from APBR has generously donated some of the fruits of his own labor to future editions this project. Here are the complete box scores from 66 and 67:

[url]http://www39.zippyshare.com/v/81758012/file.html[/url]
[url]http://www17.zippyshare.com/v/43744816/file.html[/url]

I'll add the articles from the LA Times and Boston Globe to add to the package, but this contribution has greatly reduced my work and has afforded everyone a sneak peak.

[QUOTE=fpliii]some great discussion so far, interesting points have been raised about the last two games of the series

(btw KG215 I haven't forgotten your request, I'm slowly collecting data)[/QUOTE]

Take your time.

Have you or anyone else seen this site or already know about it?

[url]http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/home.htm[/url]

That may have been one of the ones you posted earlier. Someone on here directed me to it a couple of years ago when I started compiling playoff and Finals game-by-game stat-lines for certain players.

It's even got game summaries for some of the Finals games. For the '67 Finals, or instance, it has a pretty good summary for all the games. Not so much for the '68 Finals, though. It's just hit-or-miss with some of the boxscores and game summaries for some of the earlier Finals.

If anyone is interested, I did a breakdown of the '69 Finals too, using the L.A Times and Boston Globe newspaper articles fpliii was good enough to provide, as well as various other papers....


[SIZE="4"][B]Game 1[/B][/SIZE]
West - 53/3/10 (21/41, 11/13)
Baylor - 24/8/5 (10/21, 4/8)
Wilt - 15/23/4 (6/11, 3/9)
Russ - 16/27/5 (6/12, 4/5)
Hondo - 37/12/4 (14/25, 9/9)
Jones - 21/1/6 (9/13, 3/4)

lakers win 120-118

-- There were 21 lead changes throughout the game.
-- West scored 17 points in the 4th quarter. Hondo scored 7.
-- With less than 2 minutes to go, West nailed 2 jumpers from the "side" to give L.A a 119-116 lead.
-- Wilt got an offensive rebound/basket from a West miss with 23 seconds to go. That gave L.A a 3 point cushion.
-- Emmette Bryant then missed a layup attempt whilst being harried by Wilt. The rebound went out of bounds off a Laker. Wilt proceeded to goaltended a Russell attempt with 9 seconds left.
-- West was fouled with 4 seconds remaining. He buried both FTs to give the Lakers a 3 point lead.
-- Wilt blocked at least a dozen shots but was called for several goal tending violations (He cut his hand on one block attempt).
-- West was moslty guarded 1v1 by Emmette Bryant. Russell wasn't closing out on West on his forays to the basket as often as he normally would becuase he was pre-occupied with Wilt. Russell had "only" 4 blocks.


Player of the game - West



[SIZE="4"][B]Game 2[/B][/SIZE]
West - 41/3/8 (12/22, 17/20)
Baylor - 32/10/5 (11/15, 10/12)
Wilt - 4/19/4 (1/6, 2/4)
Russ - 9/21/13 (4/7, 1/5)
Hondo - 43/12/6 (15/27, 13/14)
Jones - 21/4/0 (10/26, 1/1)

Lakers win 118-112

-- Baylor scored 18 points in the 4th Q. He scored the Lakers last 12 points (10 of them in the final 2 and a half minutes), including 4 crucial FTs in the final 42 seconds when the game was tied.
-- West had 5 points in the 4th.
-- Johhny Egan poured in 26 points (A playoff career high). The attention West received can be attributed to this. His man would often sag off him to keep close to West.
-- Wilt had several offensive rebounds.
-- Nelson had to have 6 stitches after colliding with Wilt's jaw in the Final period. Wilt was icing said jaw after the game.
-- West was being guarded by Jones, Seigfried, and Hondo for the last 4 minutes. He was getting periodically doubled by Bryant, too.


Player of the game - Baylor



[SIZE="4"][B]Game 3[/B][/SIZE]
West - 24/1/6 (9/24, 6/7)
Baylor - 11/14/1 (4/18, 3/4)
Wilt - 16/26/2 (6/11, 4/11)
Russ - 11/18/3 (5/12, 1/2)
Hondo - 34/13/7 (13/24, 8/9)
Jones - 15/3/3 (6/16, 3/4)

Boston wins 111-105

-- The Lakers were down by 17 at the half before rallying back in the 3rd.
-- West and Baylor then went ice cold in the 4th quarter, as Hondo and Siegfried (28 points for the game playing with a pulled hamstring & bruised hip) got hot. West 1-9 in the 4th, Baylor 0-5. West blamed tiredness. Hondo scored 13 in the 4th, Siegfried 11.
-- Egan was seemingly the entire Laker offense in the final period. At one point, he had scored 14 of the Lakers 16 points.
-- Erickson, Hewitt and Hawkins were all on Hondo at different times.
-- The Celtics were allowed to take far too many uncontested mid-range jumpers.


Player of the game - Havlicek



[SIZE="4"][B]Game 4[/B][/SIZE]
West - 40/6/4 (15/30, 10/10)
Baylor - 5/10/4 (2/14, 1/5)
Wilt - 8/31/1 (3/8, 2/11)
Russ - 6/29/2 (2/12, 2/4)
Hondo - 21/8/2 (7/18, 7/8)
Jones - 16/4/1 (6/14, 4/4)

Boston wins 89-88

-- West had 25 points in the 2nd half, 11 in the 4th quarter, 5 points in the final 2 minutes, including 2 FTs to put L.A up by a basket with 21 seconds left.
-- Up by 1 point with 15 seconds left, the Lakers inbounded the ball to Egan who was quickly double teamed. He lost the ball to Bryant (Egan said he should have been awarded a foul claiming Bryant hit him). Sam Jones then missed a 15 foot go-ahead jumper, which ended up out of bounds after Baylor couldn't save a Wilt tip (Baylor was adamant that he didn't step out of bounds when flipping the ball back to teammate Erickson). Celtic ball.
-- Down by 1 with 7 seconds left, the Celtics set a "triple pick" for Sam Jones who launched a high arching shot that hit the rim twice before falling in for the game winner. Hondo with the assist. Russell was on the bench for the play.
-- Keith Erickson contained Havlicek in the 4th quarter. He was the only other Laker who scored in double figures.
-- Van Breda Kolff questioned the workings of the 24 second shot clock on Boston posessions in the final period. He claimed it often started too late. "A lot of teams are concerned about the clock here" he said.
-- "I must be a loser....I don't know" said a disconsolate West said after the game.


Player of the game - West



[SIZE="4"][B]Game 5[/B][/SIZE]
West - 39/3/9 (16/31, 7/8)
Baylor - 8/5/5 (4/13, 0/4)
Wilt - 13/31/3 (5/9, 3/8)
Russ - 7/13/5 (5/5, 1/1)
Hondo - 18/14/5 (6/21, 6/8)
Jones - 25/4/4 (11/21, 3/5)

Lakers win 117-104

-- Hondo only had 6 points thru 3 quarters with Erickson guarding him.
-- Russell was passive defensively after picking up his 4th foul mid-way through the 3rd. Several Lakers proceeded to drive to the basket without the usual resistance.
-- West scored 28 points in the 2nd half, 14 in the 4th quarter, including 13 in a 4 minute span that ripped the game wide open at the beginning of the final period. He had poured in 10 field goals in a row at one point.
-- West pulled his left hamstring with around 2 minutes to go in the final period, when the game was already wrapped up.
-- The second chance shots really hurt the Celtics. Lakers took 17 more shots than Boston. Most of the credit has to go to Wilt for this. Wilt also had 7 blocks.
-- West was double teamed throughout the game. He consistently found the open man. Egan had 23 points.
-- "Can we win without Jerry? No, I don't think so. If Jerry can't play, I guess I'll have to do more on offense. I have to be ready to play" Wilt remarked after the game.


Player of the game - West



[SIZE="4"][B]Game 6[/B][/SIZE]
West - 26/4/3 (9/19, 8/11)
Baylor - 26/10/0 (9/18, 8/10)
Wilt - 8/18/4 (1/5, 6/10)
Russ - 9/19/2 (3/8, 3/3)
Hondo - 19/9/2 (8/26, 3/4)
Jones - 9/2/0 (4/8, 1/1)

Boston wins 99-90

-- Sam Jones received an 85 second standing ovation by the Celtics fans before the game. It was his last ever home game.
-- A pretty abject all-around performance form the Lakers. They commited 26 turnovers.
-- West was playing with a heavily bandaged left leg. He claimed the lack of power in his leg prevented him from driving to the basket when he wanted.
-- Don Nelson had a big game (25 points & 9 boards in only 23 minutes). He was mainly responsible for the 16 point half time lead that the Celtics would cling on to for the remainder of the game, and stemmed the tide when L.A were surging back early in the 4th.
-- Baylor wasn't always sticking to the game plan. Wasn't giving it to Wilt and cutting as often as Breda Kolff would have liked.
-- Still, Breda Kolff had this to say regarding Wilt - "We got the ball into him at times but he didn't do anything with it". So much for stepping up when needed, huh Wilt?
-- A pulled groin muscle the reason for Hondo's poor play in the last 3 games? So he claims.


Player of the game - Nelson



[SIZE="4"][B]Game 7[/B][/SIZE]
West - 42/13/12 (14/29, 14/18)
Baylor - 20/15/7 (8/22, 4/5)
Wilt - 18/27/3 (7/8, 4/13)
Russ - 6/21/6 (2/7, 2/4)
Hondo - 26/9/5 (11/19, 4/7)
Jones - 24/7/2 (10/16, 4/4)

Boston wins 108-106

-- Jerry West was noticably limping throughout the game.
-- Russell picked up his 5th foul early in the 4th quarter.
-- The Lakers trailed by 17 points with less than 10 minutes remaining, thanks to a big 3rd period by Boston.
-- Jones fouled out of his last ever game mid-way through the 4th.
-- After jarring his knee with around 5 minutes left in the final period, Wilt wanted out of the game, which Breda Kolff duly granted. But when Wilt asked to come back in a couple of minutes later Breda Kolff ignored him before finally declaring "We're playing better without you" (L.A scored 6 unanswered points with Wilt warming the bench). He sat for the remainder of the game. Mel Counts replaced him.
-- West scored 17 points in the 4th quarter. He was single handily leading a furious Laker charge. Seemingly every trip down the court he was swishing mid range jumper after mid range jumper, or getting to the line and making free throw after free throw (5/7 FGs & 7/9 FTs in the 4th) before finally running out of steam with around 4 minutes to go. He only took 1 shot in the last 4 minutes.
-- Don Nelson's "lucky" shot with a minute to go gave the Celtics a 3 point cushion. It bounced straight up, high off the inside of the rim, and swished through the Laker net on the way down.
-- Russell blocked a Mel Counts attempt with around 30 seconds to go, with the Lakers still down by 3.
-- Siegfried grabbed a rebound, was fouled, and buried 2 crucial free throws to put Boston up by 5.
-- For the game, the Lakers were 28/47 from the line.
-- Auerbach wasn't exactly magnanamous in defeat - "What are they gunna do with all those ****ing balloons now? And all that champaigne??" referring to the balloons that were set to be released from the ceiling upon a Laker victory.
-- Hondo echoed his teammates sentiments - "Just once, I'd like to see an individual like Jerry West be on a championship team"
-- A women stepped in front of Russell as he was walking out of the building and pushed a notepad and pen in front of him - "You've refused all these years. How about signing this now, just for once?". Russell ignored her.


Player of the game - West

Any let-down whatsoever by West and his own team absolutely murdered him. Essentially, there were only 2 blemishes that marked West's entire series; Poor 4th quarter in game 3 (Understandibly induced by tiredness), and an "average" performance in the potentially close-out game 6 (With a pulled, heavily bandaged left hamstring). Both times, his teammates failed miserably to pick up the slack (With the exception of Egan's big final period in game 3).

Baylor was abominabally pathetic in the decisive games 3, 4 & 5. Over that span, he averaged 8/10/3 on 22% shooting. TWENTY TWO PERCENT!!!! At this point in his career, outside of his scoring and rebounding, Baylor was contributing absolutely NOTHING to the Lakers. He was completely worthless defensively, and was never a great or willing passer/playmaker. You can imagine, then, the type of player the Lakers were lumbered with in the middle of that series. A one-legged, arthritic eskimo who was legally blind in one eye would have been more productive.

Where was Wilt?? He exhibited an obscene level of passiveness throughout the entire series. It's no secret that Breda Kolff didn't make him the focus of the Laker offense, that he played Wilt in the high post to accommodate Baylor, but there is absolutely no excuse for taking less shots per game than Johnny Egan AND Keith Erickson. Clearly he didn't want the ball. When the lakers needed him to step up in game 6, and take on more of the offensive load, he shrunk, scoring just 1 measly field goal on only 5 shot attempts. His terrible free throw shooting performance in game 4 cannot be ignored, either. He missed 9 of 11 foul shots in a game that the Lakers lost by 1 one point. Oops.

Game 4 was the absolute killer and the turning point. If Wilt and Baylor didn't inexcusably combine to shoot 5/22 from the field and 3/16 from the line, then Sam Jones wouldn't have been given the opportunity to convert perhaps the luckiest game winner in Finals history. Boston were there for the taking. They were old and tiring. Hondo, likely due to a pulled groin, had his first poor game of the series, and Russell scored just 6 points on 12 shots. They say the NBA is a 'make or miss' league. MAKE SOME ****ING SHOTS!! GIVE JERRY WEST SOME ****ING HELP!! After that loss, it was inevitably going to go to a seventh and deciding game. Bill Russell was 9-0 in game 7s prior to the '69 Finals. A team with Bill Russell on it didn't lose close series.


Other than West, only Havlicek has a case for FMVP, and that's ONLY because he was a member of the winning team. He was really great in the first 3 games, but West was even greater, and the Lakers won 2 out of 3. He then rattled off 3 incredibly mediocre performances in games 4, 5 & 6. It wasn't just his shooting (32%), his non-stop motor deserted him as well, and, as a resuIt, his all-around game suffered. He did say he was playing with a pulled groin, though. Considering his sharp drop off in performance, I'm certainly willing to believe him. I also find it curious why he wasn't Jerry West's primary defender throughout the series (Even in the first 3 games), considering he was easily Boston's best perimiter defender. Maybe Russell didn't want to wear him out, but West was the entire Laker offense. Stopping him should have been the primary goal.

Speaking of Russell, he was clearly fatiguing as the series progressed. There wasn't much from him in crunch time, and in the key moments/periods. His best performance was in game 1, and he seemed to reach rock bottom by the 5th game, in which his getting abused by Wilt on the boards was mainly responsible for the loss. He was still operating the mid-post really well - spreading the floor, finding open shooters cutters etc. His 5 assists per game average, including 13 assists in game 2, are an indication of this - but there is almost no mention of Russell's defense/shot blocking in any of the 7 games.


Jerry West didn't just deserve the FMVP, he deserved his 1st championship as well....

[QUOTE=oolalaa]
Speaking of Russell, he was clearly fatiguing as the series progressed. There wasn't much from him in crunch time, and in the key moments/periods. His best performance was in game 1, and he seemed to reach rock bottom by the 5th game, in which his getting abused by Wilt on the boards was mainly responsible for the loss. He was still operating the mid-post really well - spreading the floor, finding open shooters cutters etc. His 5 assists per game average, including 13 assists in game 2, are an indication of this - but there is almost no mention of Russell's defense/shot blocking in any of the 7 games.


Jerry West didn't just deserve the FMVP, he deserved his 1st championship as well....[/QUOTE]

Russell blocked 4 shots in Game 1 and Wilt blocked 13 shots in that game also. And Wilt blocked 7 shots in Game 5.

Awesome thread.

Will try to participate with my busy schedule.

[QUOTE=julizaver]Russell blocked 4 shots in Game 1 and Wilt blocked 13 shots in that game also. And Wilt blocked 7 shots in Game 5.[/QUOTE]

Thanks a lot. I updated the breakdown. Do you have an opinion on the '68 or '69 Finals? Do you think Russell deserved the FMVP in '68, or Hondo? Are you okay with a member of the losing team winning the FMVP, like West did in '69?

[QUOTE=oolalaa]
[SIZE="4"][B]Game 4[/B][/SIZE]
Wilt - 8/31/1 (3/8, [B][SIZE="5"]2/11[/SIZE][/B])

[B]Boston wins 89-88[/B]

[SIZE="4"][B]Game 7[/B][/SIZE]

Wilt - 18/27/3 (7/8, [B][SIZE="5"]4/13[/SIZE][/B])

[B]Boston wins 108-106[/B]
[/QUOTE]
Wilt Chokedagain

So you guys have had some time to sit on this now...

Any last comments before I start counting up votes?

(BTW next up is the 67 Finals, remember that we're going backwards)

[QUOTE=fpliii]So you guys have had some time to sit on this now...

Any last comments before I start counting up votes?

(BTW next up is the 67 Finals, remember that we're going backwards)[/QUOTE]

Give it to Russell and let's keep mowing 'em down!

[QUOTE=oolalaa]Give it to Russell and let's keep mowing 'em down![/QUOTE]

:cheers:

there are a few votes for Havlicek so I need to tally them up (haven't decided who I'm voting for yet), but I think Russell will win

I expect to put up the new thread at 8PM EST (need to find some articles first)

[QUOTE=fpliii]:cheers:

there are a few votes for Havlicek so I need to tally them up (haven't decided who I'm voting for yet), but I think Russell will win

I expect to put up the new thread at 8PM EST (need to find some articles first)[/QUOTE]

Great stuff. The next one should be very fun, even though it's obvious who the FMVP should be.

Dark horse candidate for '68 has to be Bailey Howell. Worst shooting game was 8 of 15 (53.33% in both game 1 and game 5); shot 56.667% from the field over the series, 21ppg plus 7.5rpg in approx 35mpg (couldn't find minutes for Game 3). Still it's hard to get a good read on who played best without actually seeing the games, who guarded who for what period etc. So I wouldn't actually cast a vote but by the boxscore on the winning side it might be Howell (though one assumes he didn't have the same impact on the defensive end as Havlicek and Russell), overall West's numbers might be more impressive though less consistent (and Boston triumphed in his two "down" games).

Anyway like I said don't feel confident that I know enough to choose but thanks for the research, great info.:cheers:

[QUOTE=oolalaa]Any let-down whatsoever by West and his own team absolutely murdered him. Essentially, there were only 2 blemishes that marked West's entire series; Poor 4th quarter in game 3 (Understandibly induced by tiredness), and an "average" performance in the potentially close-out game 6 (With a pulled, heavily bandaged left hamstring). Both times, his teammates failed miserably to pick up the slack (With the exception of Egan's big final period in game 3).

Baylor was abominabally pathetic in the decisive games 3, 4 & 5. Over that span, he averaged 8/10/3 on 22% shooting. TWENTY TWO PERCENT!!!! At this point in his career, outside of his scoring and rebounding, Baylor was contributing absolutely NOTHING to the Lakers. He was completely worthless defensively, and was never a great or willing passer/playmaker. You can imagine, then, the type of player the Lakers were lumbered with in the middle of that series. A one-legged, arthritic eskimo who was legally blind in one eye would have been more productive.

[B][COLOR="Red"]Where was Wilt?? He exhibited an obscene level of passiveness throughout the entire series. It's no secret that Breda Kolff didn't make him the focus of the Laker offense, that he played Wilt in the high post to accommodate Baylor, but there is absolutely no excuse for taking less shots per game than Johnny Egan AND Keith Erickson. Clearly he didn't want the ball. When the lakers needed him to step up in game 6, and take on more of the offensive load, he shrunk, scoring just 1 measly field goal on only 5 shot attempts. His terrible free throw shooting performance in game 4 cannot be ignored, either. He missed 9 of 11 foul shots in a game that the Lakers lost by 1 one point. Oops.
[/COLOR][/B]
Game 4 was the absolute killer and the turning point. If Wilt and Baylor didn't inexcusably combine to shoot 5/22 from the field and 3/16 from the line, then Sam Jones wouldn't have been given the opportunity to convert perhaps the luckiest game winner in Finals history. Boston were there for the taking. They were old and tiring. Hondo, likely due to a pulled groin, had his first poor game of the series, and Russell scored just 6 points on 12 shots. They say the NBA is a 'make or miss' league. MAKE SOME ****ING SHOTS!! GIVE JERRY WEST SOME ****ING HELP!! After that loss, it was inevitably going to go to a seventh and deciding game. Bill Russell was 9-0 in game 7s prior to the '69 Finals. A team with Bill Russell on it didn't lose close series.


Other than West, only Havlicek has a case for FMVP, and that's ONLY because he was a member of the winning team. He was really great in the first 3 games, but West was even greater, and the Lakers won 2 out of 3. He then rattled off 3 incredibly mediocre performances in games 4, 5 & 6. It wasn't just his shooting (32%), his non-stop motor deserted him as well, and, as a resuIt, his all-around game suffered. He did say he was playing with a pulled groin, though. Considering his sharp drop off in performance, I'm certainly willing to believe him. I also find it curious why he wasn't Jerry West's primary defender throughout the series (Even in the first 3 games), considering he was easily Boston's best perimiter defender. Maybe Russell didn't want to wear him out, but West was the entire Laker offense. Stopping him should have been the primary goal.

Speaking of Russell, he was clearly fatiguing as the series progressed. There wasn't much from him in crunch time, and in the key moments/periods. His best performance was in game 1, and he seemed to reach rock bottom by the 5th game, in which his getting abused by Wilt on the boards was mainly responsible for the loss. He was still operating the mid-post really well - spreading the floor, finding open shooters cutters etc. His 5 assists per game average, including 13 assists in game 2, are an indication of this - but there is almost no mention of Russell's defense/shot blocking in any of the 7 games.


Jerry West didn't just deserve the FMVP, he deserved his 1st championship as well....[/QUOTE]

Some guys just don't have that killer instinct. They don't want it as much as the other guy and it shows when it matters most. I've always thought that Baylor was similar to Ilt. I mean some things just can't be coincidence. Like him never winning a ring and his team going on a historical 33 game winning streak right after he retires. Some guys are flow killers and don't help you win.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Some guys just don't have that killer instinct. They don't want it as much as the other guy and it shows when it matters most. I've always thought that Baylor was similar to Ilt. I mean some things just can't be coincidence. Like him never winning a ring and his team going on a historical 33 game winning streak right after he retires. Some guys are flow killers and don't help you win.[/QUOTE]

Looks like you have spent hours and weeks trying to come up with something disparage Wilt...

even reopening an old thread from 4 years ago,...

and that does not even pertain to this topic of the [B]'68[/B] Finals...this was from the '69 Finals.

Excellent work.

No agenda here...

:applause: :applause: :applause:


BTW, that [B]opinion[/B] of the [B]'69[/B] Finals was pure shit, as well.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Looks like you have spent hours and weeks trying to come up with something disparage Wilt...

even reopening an old thread from 4 years ago,...

and that does not even pertain to this topic of the '68 EDF's.

Excellent work.

:applause: :applause: :applause:[/QUOTE]

Actually, it's a link from this thread, which was made yesterday:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396804[/url]

But I have a love for the history of the game and want to find out the truth about the past. So that would exclude you from anything regarding Ilt. Sad part about all of this is that with your decades of watching the game, you can really give the younger folks a solid education on the history of the game but you just can't bring yourself to be OBJECTIVE. And wiithout objectivity, you have NOTHING.

You fail to realize that bball is a team game. Just because one guy is filling up the stat sheets doesn't necessarily mean he's playing optimal, team ball. You can get yours at the expense of the team instead of within the flow. Sometimes it's not about the points/rebounds, it's about playing the right way. Like I said before, if you don't know what I'm talking about, you never will.

So continue on with your Wilt obsession with his individual stats. :applause:

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Looks like you have spent hours and weeks trying to come up with something disparage Wilt...

even reopening an old thread from 4 years ago,...

and that does not even pertain to this topic of the [B]'68[/B] Finals...this was from the '69 Finals.

Excellent work.

No agenda here...

:applause: :applause: :applause:


[B][COLOR="Red"]BTW, that [B]opinion[/B] of the [B]'69[/B] Finals was pure shit, as well[/COLOR][/B].[/QUOTE]

Duh. Ya think? Coming from YOU? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Actually, it's a link from this thread, which was made yesterday:

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=396804[/url]

But I have a love for the history of the game and want to find out the truth about the past. So that would exclude you from anything regarding Ilt. Sad part about all of this is that with your decades of watching the game, [B]you can really give the younger folks a solid education on the history of the game but you just can't bring yourself to be OBJECTIVE[/B]. And wiithout objectivity, you have NOTHING.

You fail to realize that bball is a team game. Just because one guy is filling up the stat sheets doesn't necessarily mean he's playing optimal, team ball. You can get yours at the expense of the team instead of within the flow. Sometimes it's not about the points/rebounds, it's about playing the right way. Like I said before, if you don't know what I'm talking about, you never will.

So continue on with your Wilt obsession with his individual stats. :applause:[/QUOTE]

Ok, my friend, let's do some real research on the fabled '69 Lakers and their Finals, shall we...

First of all...Butch "the Butcher" Van Breda Kolff. Just so you know, he was vehemently against the trade that brought Chamberlain to the Lakers to begin with. From day one he hated Wilt.

Now, when a team brings in the GOAT low-post center of all-time, you would them to utilize him in that fashion, wouldn't you?

[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+the+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=onepage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain%20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false[/url]

[QUOTE]Chamberlain: "[B]Butch wanted me to play the high post[/B] so Elgin could drive to the basket, but they got me for rebounding. Why pull a guy away from the basket when you want him to rebound?"[/QUOTE]


And here is one of my personal all-time favorites from Van Breda Kolff...

[QUOTE]Butch Van Breda Kolff: "Not having enough basketballs wasn't the problem at all for us. The trade changed our chemistry. Elgin's favorite move was the drive from the left wing and into the middle. Now, when he did that, he ran into Wilt, and Wilt's man. Wilt took that move away from Elgin. Imhoff loved to pick-and-roll with Elgin, but that wasn't something Wilt did very well. [B]So we were able to throw the ball down low to [COLOR="DarkRed"]Wilt and he'd score[/COLOR], but it was an awful offense to watch.[/B] When the ball stops moving, then guys don't rebound or play defense as well as they normally would."[/QUOTE]

So, VBK decided that instead of getting the ball down low and into Chamberlain, where he would SCORE, that he preferred Baylor to roam the baseline and get his offense. And, of course, Wilt complied. The result? Baylor had a good regular season, averaging 24.8 ppg (West was at 25.9 ppg, and Wilt at 20.5 ppg BTW), but he was completely exposed in the playoff as the shell that he was, and in fact, had the WORST FG% on the entire team in the post-season (.385.)


Now, let's get down to the Finals. Where a COACH LOST the series.

As we already know, VBK had basically SHACKLED Wilt in that post-season. It was bad enough that during the regular season, Wilt had averaged a career-low 13.6 FGAs per game (Baylor was at 21.5 FGA per game, and West at 19.0 BTW), but then, in the post-season, Wilt hardly the saw the ball at all. His FGAs dropped down to 9.8 (West's went to 23.5 and Baylor 15.4.) And in the Finals... Wilt was at 8.3, Baylor at 17.3, and West at a staggering 28.0!

Obviously, VBK was rolling his dice with West and Baylor, and Wilt was an afterthought. And that is why I always find it comical that WILT gets blamed for that series loss. Obviously Baylor would be, by far-and-away, the biggest culprit...but also, why not West? After all, he was putting up "Wilt-type" shot attempts, and his team ultimately lost. When Wilt's teams lost with Chamberlain shooting the ball...he was a selfish ball-hog. When he didn't shoot...well, he was a coward and choked. Why not blame West as well?

How about the matchups?

The Lakers were favored coming into that series, but the reality was...they had an edge at TWO positions.and with TWO players. West and Wilt. Baylor was on paper only. In fact, it turned out that he was a complete LIABILITY. From players 3-9, it was all Boston. And while Havlicek and West were not normally assigned to defend one another, the fact was, that match-up was REALLY close. As was the Wilt-Russell duels. However, the reason that that battle was close, was again, because VBK's offense did NOT include Wilt.

BTW, the 4th quarter of game seven is available on Youtube. Just watch it. Immediately after Russell picked up his 5th PF, the Lakers went right into Wilt, and he went right around the "matador" defense of Russell for an easy lay-in. It would basically be the last time he touched the ball down low the rest of the game (obviously he missed the last five minutes, as well.) BTW, as a side-note...while you are watching that footage...look for Russell. You will seldom find him. He was essentially hiding the entire quarter...and as the Lakers stormed back from a 17 point deficit with 10 minutes left, down to a one point game with two minutes left.


Ok, now let's get into some game specifics. First of all, and as I have said before, this was Chamberlain's worst post-season series of his entire career. He played poorly in three games...albeit, he still averaged 22.7 rpg in those three contests. In one of them, game two, his team still eked out a 118-112 win (and by god, Baylor miraculously played well in that game, too.)

So, the first poor game didn't hurt the Lakers at all. And they jumped out to a 2-0 series lead. Wilt actually played well in game three, scoring 16 points, on 6-11 shooting, with 26 rebounds (and he easily outplayed Russell, who had scored 11 pts, on 5-12 shooting, with 18 rebounds. HOWEVER, BOTH West and Baylor were terrible. West scored 24 points, but on 9-24 shooting, while Baylor couldn't have played much worse (wait, he will) with 11 points on 4-18 from the field.

Oh, and how well did West and Baylor play in the 4th quarter of that game three, six point loss?

[url]http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1969.htm[/url]

[QUOTE]L.A. fails to rally in the 4th in large part due to [B]Jerry West & Elgin Baylor shooting a combined 1-14[/B] from the floor in the period.
[/QUOTE]

So, had WEST and BAYLOR even played a decent game, the Lakers would have been up 3-0, and essentially the series was over. Instead, it was now 2-1.

Continued...

Ok, now on to game four, and the pivotal PLAY that ultimately cost the Lakers a title in 1969 (albeit, there were several other's, as well.)

[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=b7bB1FXutcMC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=johnny+egan+had+the+ball+stolen+by+emmette+bryant&source=bl&ots=Kkcu4JS0-j&sig=MdVUhvva2_PEnjIea_737nMAeYg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWoemgkMvKAhXKJiYKHbhtBLAQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=johnny%20egan%20had%20the%20ball%20stolen%20by%20emmette%20bryant&f=false[/url]

[QUOTE][B]The Celtics proved that again in Game 4 as Sam Jones hit a dramatic off-balance, game-winning shot with a second to play to lift his team to a wild 89-88 victory over the Lakers[/B]. "I thought Sam's shot was going to miss when he put it up, "Russell confessed, "I said to myself__'Oh damn!" But the ball looked like it had fingers and just crawled in. To Lakers coach Bill van Breda Kolff, the basket represented a nightmare come true. "I've lost tough one's before," he sighed, "but never any tougher." Elgin Baylor concurred: "[B]It was a lucky shot. But [Jones] made it[/B]. And that's what counts. He slipped, went off-balance and still put the ball in the hoop."

An improbable series of events set the stage for the victory shot, [B]starting with a nondescript out-of-bounds play iniated by Baylor under the Los Angeles basket with 14 seconds remaining. Protecting an 88-87 Lakers lead, Baylor passed the ball to Johnny Egan, who promptly had it stolen away from him by Boston's Emmette Bryant.[/B] "He slapped me right on the arm and knocked the ball loose," Egan said. "It was the key play in the game and [the officials] didn't call it." Bryant immediately flicked a pass to Jones, who launched a 15-foot jumper from the right of the key. The ball bounced off the front of the rim, but the Celtics retained possession, and called time-out with 7 seconds to play. While contemplating his options in the huddle, player-coach Russell was successfully lobbied by Havlicek and Siegfried to use a play straight out of their old Ohio State playbook. "There's just enough time for it," said Havlicek, who had introduced the play to his teammates at an earlier practice session during the Philadelphia series. The play call for the use of a triple screen to give the intended shooter, in this case Jones, a clean look at the basket. "We walked through it one time in the huddle, just to make sure everyone would be sure of what he had to do," said Jones, who had 16 points and 4 rebounds. When play resumed Bryant inbounded the ball to Havlicek, who then "broke" to form a defensive barrier along-side Bailey Howell and Don Nelson near the free-throw line. While this was taking place, Jones wheeled around the screen on the right to receive the anticipated pass from Havlicek. [B]After momentarily stumbling on the parquet floor, Jones tossed up a prayer that hit both the front and back rims before finally dropping.[/B]

"I didn't think the ball was going in," said Jones. "In fact. I didn't think it was going in the right general direction and I didn't think it was going to even make the front rim. I slipped as I tried to plant my foot."[/QUOTE]

ONE DAMNED LUCKY PLAY won the series.

But, think about this. Why didn't VBK call a time-out after the made Celtic free-throw had cut the lead to 88-87? Furthermore, what was Baylor thinking inbounding the ball to EGAN? Where was WEST?

There was plenty of blame to go around, including Wilt. Chamberlain had scored 8 points, on 3-8 from the field, and 2-11 from the line (in a one point loss), BUT, he had STILL managed to outplay Russell, who was even worse. Russell was ghastly. He scored 6 points, on 2-12 from the field, and 2-4 from the line. On top of that, Chamberlain outrebounded him,m 31-29. Of course, it was BAYLOR who REALLY blew chunks in that game. He scored FIVE points, on...get this... 2-14 from the field. BUT, it gets even worse...he also went an unfathomable, 1-5 from the line...in a ONE POINT loss!

That [B]one stupid play[/B], (and subsequent miracle shot) cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp. Because, in game five, back in LA, the Lakers, behind Wilt finally just beating the stuffing out of Russell (outscoring him 13-7, and outrebounding him by a massive 31-13 margin)...pounded Boston, 117-104.

ONE PLAY.

Continued...

[SIZE="7"]You think I give a fu*k about your thoughts on Ilt? You have proven time and time again that you bring no objectivity to the table on this topic.[/SIZE]

Chamberlain VERY SELDOM played a truly poor game in his entire post-season career. Hell, in his 160 playoff games, he had at least 20 rebounds in 124 of them. And a 20-20 game was a BAD game for a PRIME Wilt.

Furthermore, in their 49 post-season H2H games, Russell almost never outplayed Chamberlain.

However, both occurred in game six of the '69 Finals. With Wilt playing poorly, the Celtics built a 17 point lead going into the 4th quarter, and coasted to a 99-90 win. Russell outscored Wilt, 9-8, outshot Wilt, 3-8 to 1-5 (and 3-3 to 6-10 from the line), and outrebounded Wilt, 19-18. Obviously, the difference wasn't much, but had Chamberlain just put up even a near normal game, the series would have been over.

Instead, the series was now tied, 3-3. Still, game seven was back in LA, where the Lakers would be favored. Their owner was so confident that his Lakers would win, that he had a ton of balloons hanging from the ceiling, the USC marching band in attendance, and champagne on ice in the locker room. None of which sat well with Russell and his proud Celtics.

Boston immediately jumped out a 24-12 lead, and slowly took control of the game. Late in the third period, the margin was up to 15, and even worse, Wilt picked up his 5th personal foul. However, he remained in the game, and in fact, was a defensive factor for the rest of his time in the contest.

Early in the 4th quarter, it was now Russell who picked up HIS 5th personal foul, but, unlike Wilt, who was still contesting shots, Russell completely went into hiding. Right after that foul, the Lakers inbounded the ball into a low-post Wilt, and he went right around the "statue" Russell for an easy lay-in. However, and mainly do the the incompetence of Van Breda Kolff, Chamberlain never got another low-post touch again.

With ten minutes remaining, Boston had extended their lead to 17 points. It was then that the Lakers started mounting a furious rally. Aided by Sam Jones fouling out shortly thereafter, LA stormed back and cut the margin to 11 with over six minutes remaining. BUT, Chamberlain, while grabbing a rebound, came down awkwardedly, and injured his knee. He still threw an outlet that led to another Laker basket, and the lead was now only nine points. He stayed hobbled at the defensive end, and then grabbed yet another rebound (BTW, those two rebounds, on successive possessions, equaled Russell's entire total in his 4th quarter), and his outlet led to a play in which West was fouled. Wilt HAD to come out. The Lakers called time-out, and VBK sent in Mel Counts to replace Chamberlain. West subsequently hit both FTs, and the lead was now down to seven, with about five-and-a-half minutes remaining.

After the game, there were rumors that were circulating that Wilt had "feigned" his injury. However, even Van Breda Kolff, who absolutely despised Wilt, defended Wilt's injury. Furthermore, if Wilt were somehow trying to protect his image, why wouldn't he have "faked" it late in the 3rd quarter, and after his 5th foul, and with his team trailing by 15 points? And why would he pull himself out of the game, when the Lakers had chopped a full 10 points off of a 17 point margin, and in a little over four minutes, and with over five minutes left in the game?

In any case, the Celtics were running on fumes, and were slowly dying. LA continued to cut into the deficit, and with a little over two minutes left, the margin was now 103-102. That is when Wilt, now feeling well enough to play, asked VBK to go back in. Van Breda Kolff refused, and that decision basically cost not only the city of Los Angeles their very first title, but it basically ruined VBK's coaching career.

Boston extended the lead back to 105-102, and then Wilt's "replacement' mel Counts, missed a shot. Boston would get the ball to Don Nelson at the free-throw line, where he put up a shot that clanked off the back of the rim...went straight up, and came straight down into the basket, for an insurmountable 107-102 lead. Counts threw an errant pass with under a minute remaining, as well, to seal the loss... 108-106. BTW, Counts shot 4-13 from the floor in that game.

Was game seven WILT's fault? In his 43 minutes, he scored 18 points, on 7-8 from the floor (and admittedly, 4-13 from the line), with 27 rebounds. Meanwhile, his counter-part, Russell, had just been pathetic. Russell scored six points, on 2-7 from the field, and 2-4 from the line, with 21 rebounds.

Even more damning...remove Wilt's and Russell's FG/FGAs from that game...and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's teammates from the floor by a staggering .477 to .360 margin! Even the brilliant West had his lapses. He missed more shots than he made (going 14-29 from the floor), and even missed two of his four missed free-throws down the stretch (going 14-18 overall.)

Unbelievably, the Lakers had lost a seven game series, including a game seven, two point loss, with a series of poor play, multiple miraculous game-winning shots from Boston, an injury to Wilt, and just a complete meltdown by a coach.

When West, and owner Jack Kent Cooke had learned that Wilt had asked to go back in, they were furious. But before Cooke could fire VBK, he quit. Again, the stubborn Van Breda Kolff put his own hatred for Wilt above even winning a world championship.

Chamberlain would eventually get Los Angeles their first ring a couple of years later. LA brought in Bill Sharman in the 71-72 season, and after he basically jettisoned Baylor following the ninth game, the Lakers immediately went on a 33 game winning streak, en route to a 69-13 record, and a dominating world title. Oh, and in the Finals, and with West just choking on his own puke the entire series, Chamberlain absolutely destroyed the Knicks, in a series in which he averaged 19 ppg, 23 rpg, and shot .600 from the field...which included a clinching game five performance of 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds (the entire NY team only had 39), and 8 blocked shots. All accomplished with one badly sprained wrist, and the other fractured.

Now, you know EVERYTHING you need to know about the '69 Finals.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival][SIZE="7"]You think I give a fu*k about your thoughts on Ilt? You have proven time and time again that you bring no objectivity to the table on this topic.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

So, next time when you go out of your way to bash Wilt, and so by using a post from an OPINION from a complete idiot...


just ask ME, and I will give you the REAL story.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]So, next time when you go out of your way to bash Wilt, and so by using a post from an OPINION from a complete idiot...


just ask ME, and I will give you the REAL story.[/QUOTE]


He's a troll Laz.....a mindless troll. Why even bother with him?

[QUOTE=Helix]He's a troll Laz.....a mindless troll. Why even bother with him?[/QUOTE]

I know I waste a lot of time here, as do other's, but hopefully some of my posts educate the few that might actually want to learn more about Wilt. As you know, having grown up in the Chamberlain-era, he was held in an almost god-like regard, despite his lack of rings. And almost daily you would read about either some unfathomable statistical accomplishment or physical feat.

Nowadays, he is regarded as a choking loser who feasted on the 6-5 white nerds of the 60's, but was dominated by Russell. Furthermore, none of his physical feats ever occurred, and were all bedtime stories.

BTW, take a look at these two clowns that Chamberlain dominated in the '60's...

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TnbhJr8iY[/url]

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=993UTozPECc[/url]

Can you imagine just how laughable it would be, if you were to transport those two "Jerry's Kids" to the current NBA?

I find it fascinating that Chamberlain was basically the ONLY one putting up those eye-popping numbers in his era. And he was accomplishing them year-after-year, and even into his last season.

As for his staggering physical feats...they are plastered all over the internet. Page-after-page of articles and eye-witness accounts, even photos, and footage (much of which has been unearthed in the last few years BTW.) And just as mind-boggling...virtually zero eyewitness accounts that DISPUTE any of them.

If Chamberlain were not capable of dunking on a 12 foot rim, or touching the top of the back-board, or taking a couple of steps and then dunking from the free-throw line, or bench-pressing 500 lbs, or curling 100 lbs dumb-bells "like you or I would pick up a telephone", or running a 4.4 40, etc., etc....where are those that witnessed him NOT doing them? Surely, in his four years of high school, his three years of college, and then his 14 seasons in the NBA, and then his public appearances into his late 50's...surely at least ONE LEGITIMATE source would have come forth and claimed that, "hey, I watched him attempt to touch the top of the backboard, and he was nowhere near it."

Not only that, but so many respected eye-witness accounts, too. Sonny Hill, Hank Stram, Tex Winter, and Arnold himself...and many other's...players, coaches, members of the media, and thousands of fans...all just awe-struck by what they witnessed.

In any case...I'll keep wasting my time. I actually enjoy it.

BTW, 1969 is THE season that the bashers ALWAYS bring up in Wilt's career. This one post-season, and particularly his Finals...is considered the norm for Chamberlain's entire career.

You seldom see anyone bring up, say his '65 post-season, in which he dragged a 40-40 team to a 3-1 romp over Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals, and then to the brink of the greatest upset in NBA playoff history, and did so with a 30-31 .555 seven game series, against Russell and his 62-18 Celtics.

Nor his 65-66 season, when he absolutely carpet-bombed his HOF peers (Russell, Thurmond, and Bellamy) that season, including Russell in both the regular season, and the post-season.

And about the only time a basher mentions Wilt's '67 season...well, he was only their 5th leading scorer in the Finals. Of course, they conveniently ignore his crushing dominance in all three post-season series, and his demolition of two of the GOAT defensive centers in NBA history. They will gloss over his 29-36-13-7 clinching game five game against Russell in the '67 EDF's, or his 24-23 clinching game in the Finals...and in both games, he completely shut down Russell and Thurmond. Or that he had two straight playoff series of 28-27-11 .617, and then 22-32-10 .556 against Russell. Or that in his first playoff game, he scored a team playoff high for that post-season, of 41 points (and then in the next game scored 37.)

Oh, some of them will cite his '68 EDF's, but only the last two games (and even in one of those he pulled down 34 rebounds). They will ignore his overwhelming play against the Bellamy-Reed-Frazier trio in the first round, and also fail to mention his 24-23 .539 first five games of that seven game series. And for sure they will have amnesia when it comes to his and his teammates health in that series.

Some will also point out a crippled Reed winning the FMVP in his '70 Finals, but no mention at all of Wilt playing in that series only four months after major knee surgery (and certainly no mention of his 23-24 .625 seven game Finals.)

The bashers will also disparage his '72 title run and FMVP, by claiming that he was only the Lakers third leading scorer in the Finals. And, of course, no mention of his chopping down a peak KAJ in the WCF's (especially in the last four games, and particularly in the clinching game six win.)

Nope...Wilt's entire post-season career was on full display in the '69 Finals. THAT was the REAL Wilt.

[QUOTE=ClipperRevival]Some guys just don't have that killer instinct. They don't want it as much as the other guy and it shows when it matters most. I've always thought that Baylor was similar to Ilt. I mean some things just can't be coincidence. Like him never winning a ring and his team going on a historical 33 game winning streak right after he retires. Some guys are flow killers and don't help you win.[/QUOTE]

Yep...you would never see Wilt leading his team on a 33 game winning streak. Nor to a 69-13 record. Nor chopping down a peak KAJ and his defending champion Bucks in the WCF's. Nor overcoming the complete collapse of "Mr. Clutch" to lead his team to an overwhelming Finals, and winning a FMVP in the process.

Nope...he was a "flow-killer" and a "loser."