[QUOTE=guy]I hope this is just a huge exaggeration and not something you actually believe.[/QUOTE]
He's stupid. Forgive him.
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[QUOTE=guy]I hope this is just a huge exaggeration and not something you actually believe.[/QUOTE]
He's stupid. Forgive him.
[QUOTE=Raz]So he is going to be penalized for being an ironman? Pippen didn't play that many minutes, and his career was still shorter, shittier and without the same peak.
[B]Pippen did have a prime that went from about 90-98. That's nine seasons. And consider this. You call hondo an ironman? Pippen rarely had a decent off season where rest is concerned. He spent the 90, and 94 seasons rehabbing from offseason surgery. Played in the olypics in 92 and 96. And his teams always went deep into the playoffs.[/B]
I'm going to go ahead an say that Pippen was the better defender, but I to say he is the best ever is debatable.
So why didn't he put up higher scoring numbers if he was so great as a number one option?
[B]He had to exert a lot of energy on defense. As well as run the team. If Pippen avg 45 minutes a night, in 94, he'd be pushing 28 ppg too. Along with 11 rebounds, and 8 assists.[/B]
The fact that they were Jordan-less and played more like a team may have something to do with that.
[B]neither grant nor armstrong was ever able to duplicate their 94 season. Even Kukoc shot above 50% in 95 without Jordan. And could repeat that feat in 98 without Pippen. The fact is Pippen ran the Bulls offense for 8 years starting in 91. The result? The Bulls finished first in offense three times. Second twice. They were even top 10 in 94 without Jordan.[/B]
Different eras. Havlicek never had the benefit of playing with a 3 point line. Perimeter players FG% rose after the introduction of the 3 point line.
[B]Not true. Fg% went down as players began to utilize the three point shot. Its alos funny how you put into context Hondos FG%, but won't do the same for a comparison of their PPG.[/B]
As a number 1 option, he is still far behind the kind of output we saw from Havlicek.
[B]Again context. How many PPG, Rbds, and assists would Pippen avg had he been able to play 45 minutes per?[/B]
[/QUOTE]
I've never seen Havlicek play so I can't say whose better. But Hondos accomplished more in the NBA than Pippen has.
[QUOTE=97 bulls]I've never seen Havlicek play so I can't say whose better. But Hondos accomplished more in the NBA than Pippen has.[/QUOTE]
Which would put him above him in the all-time rankings, and for that purpose we consider him a better player. I never intend to compare players directly, rather their impact within their respective era. Havlicek made a bigger, and longer impact. End thread.
[QUOTE=Raz]Which would put him above him in the all-time rankings, and for that purpose we consider him a better player. I never intend to compare players directly, rather their impact within their respective era. Havlicek made a bigger, and longer impact. End thread.[/QUOTE]
Not so fast. You first say you stay away from direct comparisons. Then in the sentence directly before make a direct comparison by saying Hondos the better player.
And let's just take you're opinion as gospel. Hondo was regarded higher than Pippen was. What if we include ABA players? Pippen was already considered a top 10 player throughout his career top 5 in 94/95. How much higher would his rank be if you were to take 6-7 top players out of the league like what happened in the 70s when the ABA took such greats as Dr.J, Gilmore, Barry to name a few.
You're not even trying to compare these players fairly
[QUOTE=D.J.][B]Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game[/B]. His dominance with his perimeter D and his ability to make plays, handle the ball, and set up plays is something that has yet to be matched. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see him be the #1 option for more than a year and a half. He put up I think 22/9/6/3/1 in '94. He also had a season of 21/7/7 with Mike.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :wtf: :facepalm
Ever hear of Jordan, far superior than Pippen as a two way player, as is Lebron as, was Hondo...I swear Pippen must be TOP 10 GOAT, the way these young dudes who never saw him play on here talk about him.
[QUOTE=Raz]And Havlicek well surpassed those numbers. He was arguably the best wing defender of his generation, was a number one option on offense, got players involved at a better rate than Pippen, and he could actually shoot consistently.
Havlicek is one of the best all-around players we have ever seen, and he did it over such a long period. Pippen had a small window of dominant play.[/QUOTE]
Its pointless, quit trying, even that window wasn't dominant..it was very good
[QUOTE=D.J.]Pippen is the best two way player to ever play the game. [/QUOTE]
Did you really just say that? Please tell me you aren't being serious.
[QUOTE=Calabis]:roll: :wtf: :facepalm
Ever hear of Jordan, far superior than Pippen as a two way player, as is Lebron as, was Hondo...I swear Pippen must be TOP 10 GOAT, the way these young dudes who never saw him play on here talk about him.[/QUOTE]
U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.
[QUOTE=bizil]U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.[/QUOTE]
Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another great perimeter defender in Jordan on the side.
These threads are always funny cuz people speak with such confidence on players they never even saw play. You can literally count on two hands the number of people on this board who saw JH play :oldlol:
[QUOTE=bizil]U are damn right! Jordan, Hondo, and Lebron are great scorers on top of the great defense. U also have Kobe, Wade, and West that fit the bill. U could even argue guys like Clyde Frazier, Payton, Dennis Johnson, and Moncrief.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the centers that were better two way players. He said best two way player ever. I'm assuming he was including all players. Either way, he's still wrong.
[QUOTE=Calabis]Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another [b]great perimeter defender[/b] in Jordan on the side.[/QUOTE]
Jordan, yes: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4gigN2zMU4[/url]
[QUOTE=B-Low]These threads are always funny cuz people speak with such confidence on players they never even saw play. You can literally count on two hands the number of people on this board who saw JH play :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
Hence the reason why I said I'm not going to comment on a guy I never seen play.
[QUOTE=Calabis]Pippen was one of my favorites, but I swear the last couple of months on ISH, Pippen has become top 5 GOAT status, he is Jordan, Magic and Bird combined in one, they talk about his defense like he was shutting down guys, holding them to 5 points....its funny how they say Jordan benefited from Pippen on the defense end, yet the same could be said about Pippen, its a lot easier when you have another great perimeter defender in Jordan on the side.[/QUOTE]
Oddly enough, the Bulls actually improved defensively when Jordan retired in 93.
[QUOTE=KG215]Not to mention the centers that were better two way players. He said best two way player ever. I'm assuming he was including all players. Either way, he's still wrong.[/QUOTE]
U are indeed right about the bigs! I feel it's why centers dominated the MVP award in NBA history. From Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, David, Ewing, Walton, etc. a dominant big on both ends can influence a game like no others. Even guys who were very good scorers and great defenders like Russell, Howard, Zo, Gilmore and Thurmond showed how valuable they are. Duncan and KG really set that bar for the PF position, but both are 7 footers.
[QUOTE=DatAsh]Oddly enough, the Bulls actually improved defensively when Jordan retired in 93.[/QUOTE]
So was this all because of Pippen? Or was it some of the other pieces added, that were slightly better than two aging starters from the previous season?
[I]Although mediocre defender B.J. Armstrong led the team in minutes, Chicago's D improved in large part because they received outstanding performances from Pippen & Grant, each of whom earned Defensive Player of the Year consideration. Pippen had been known as a tremendous defender for years, but in 1994 he was the best perimeter defender in the NBA, and his 96.9 DRtg was one of the best ever by a player 6'8" or shorter. Also, not to be forgotten was Pete Myers' ability to vaguely approximate Jordan's defense at SG, Scott Williams' strong post D, better play from Stacey King, and solid interior performances from Wennington, Blount, and Longley (a major improvement over what Cartwright & King delivered in '93).
Despite the plaudits Jordan received for his D, defense remains largely a team activity, so it makes sense that this was the area in which Chicago did the best job of surviving MJ's retirement. With one of the greatest coaches ever, one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever, [B]and a supporting cast of mostly solid defensive players (especially on the defensive glass)[/B], it should not have come as a surprise that the Bulls cobbled together a defense that was largely unfazed by the loss of Jordan. This is also good news for Cleveland, who had the NBA's 7th-best D in 2010 and might expect to retain most of that in 2011 despite losing James, a 1st-Team All-Defender.
The Bulls' offense weakened, but didn't totally collapse. There's no question that Chicago's offense suffered a major setback with Jordan's departure -- they fell from 112.9 pts/100 (4.9 better than average, 2nd in the league) in 1993 to 106.1 (0.2 worse than avg., 14th) in 1994 -- but Pippen proved himself a capable high-usage #1 option, and Armstrong/Grant/Kerr were very efficient complimentary players. You can't deny that the Bulls' offense without Jordan was pretty ordinary in '94, but the loss was not catastrophic like it would be in '99, the second time MJ retired[/I]
I like Scottie and all, but Havlicek was a bit better in my mind. Scottie had a better defensive game and rebounding game than Hondo, but Hondo's longevity, energy and an overall better offensive game make me want to take him. Plus, Scottie wasn't a good #1. Hondo was. Though, I'm not sure who was the better passer.
I feel Hondo can be underrated here sometimes, but that's just me.
[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]I like Scottie and all, but Havlicek was a bit better in my mind. Scottie had a better defensive game and rebounding game than Hondo, but Hondo's longevity, energy and an overall better offensive game make me want to take him. Plus, Scottie wasn't a good #1. Hondo was. Though, I'm not sure who was the better passer.
I feel Hondo can be underrated here sometimes, but that's just me.[/QUOTE]
Not even close, Hondo was the best player on the 68, 69, and 74 teams. Pippen was a great 2nd best player on the team but he never won as the team's best player.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]Not even close, Hondo was the best player on the 68, 69, 74 and perhaps 76 teams. Pippen was a great 2nd best player on the team but he never won as the team's best player.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. I do think it's closer than some player comparisons around here though, so hence the close bit. Hondo is a superior player and if I was assembling a GOAT Team he'd be the 6th man (I'm not saying he's the 6th best player, but he excelled in the 6th man role back when he played better than most 6th men. And with his relentless energy and solid scoring, I feel it'd be a good pick)
[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]Yeah. I do think it's closer than some player comparisons around here though, so hence the close bit. Hondo is a superior player and if I was assembling a GOAT Team he'd be the 6th man (I'm not saying he's the 6th best player, but he excelled in the 6th man role back when he played better than most 6th men. And with his relentless energy and solid scoring, I feel it'd be a good pick)[/QUOTE]
I actually think Havlicek is one of the most underrated players of all time. I don't see for example why he should be ranked much lower, if at all, than Jerry West.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]I actually think Havlicek is one of the most underrated players of all time. I don't see for example why he should be ranked much lower, if at all, than Jerry West.[/QUOTE]
I agree Hondo is underrated. :cheers: . I have him in the top 20 actually. I'd take him over a lot of guys. Did you know he actually played football in college? I thought that was pretty cool.
[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]I agree Hondo is underrated. :cheers: . I have him in the top 20 actually. I'd take him over a lot of guys. Did you know he actually played football in college? I thought that was pretty cool.[/QUOTE]
I actually have him top 13. I think he really got screwed historically because in the 60s he played in the Russel-Chamberlain era and the 70s are dark age of basketball. I think this article in SI [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089160/4/index.htm[/url] says it all about how great he was considered back in the day.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]I actually have him top 13. I think he really got screwed historically because in the 60s he played in the Russel-Chamberlain era and the 70s are dark age of basketball. I think this article in SI [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089160/4/index.htm[/url] says it all about how great he was considered back in the day.[/QUOTE]
Who are the three guys you'd take him over in 11 through 13. Seeing as how you said he and West are rated similarily I'd like to see who you have in front of Hondo
In terms of Pippen, he's usually rated by most astute bball fans or experts GOAT wise anywhere from the late 20's down to 40. U would think with his resume that he would be rated somewhere at least in the teens to 20. Why is Pippen not rated that high? The reason why is because he wasn't as dominant scoring the rock as other legendary SF's or SG's. And many of those SG's and SF's were epic all around players themselves. Those are the players that Pip is compared to and that's what hurts him from being rated in the teens on a GOAT list. PG's aren't really penalized for that. Even a guy like Russell at center wasn't either. But if u are a SG or SF, MOST of the icons were dominant scorers.
[QUOTE=Freedom Kid7]Who are the three guys you'd take him over in 11 through 13. Seeing as how you said he and West are rated similarily I'd like to see who you have in front of Hondo[/QUOTE]
I would just group West, Robertson, and Hondo as 12-14 without trying to rank them individually. I have MMalone and Olajuwan as 10-11.
my top SF list, based on overall as a player (skills, talent, intagibles), career (accolades and acomplishments), longevity, team and competition goes:
1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Hondo
4. LeBron (still climbing up the list of course)
5. Erving (can't give the ABA that much weight, his was at his absolute best there, even so he can very well be argued as higher)
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8. Wilkins
9. Worthy
then along the list, in no particular order, you got guys like English, Dantley, Pierce, King, Wilkes, Rodman and Mullin (if you consider them SF's), McGrady, Aguirre, Arizin, Gus Johnson, Lou Hudson, Marques Johnson, Bobby Jones, Grant Hill, Melo and Durant (still climbing up the list)........
Of course some guys are really close, almost tied
[QUOTE=SHAQisGOAT]my top SF list, based on overall as a player (skills, talent, intagibles), career (accolades and acomplishments), longevity, team and competition goes:
1. Bird
2. Baylor
3. Hondo
4. LeBron (still climbing up the list of course)
5. Erving (can't give the ABA that much weight, his was at his absolute best there, even so he can very well be argued as higher)
6. Barry
7. Pippen
8. Wilkins
9. Worthy
then along the list, in no particular order, you got guys like English, Dantley, Pierce, King, Wilkes, Rodman and Mullin (if you consider them SF's), McGrady, Aguirre, Arizin, Gus Johnson, Lou Hudson, Marques Johnson, Bobby Jones, Grant Hill, Melo and Durant (still climbing up the list)........
Of course some guys are really close, almost tied[/QUOTE]
Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.
Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.
Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.[/QUOTE]
We'll agree to disagree but like I've said it's so close and I can't argue against what you've said, both have cases.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]I would just group West, Robertson, and Hondo as 12-14 without trying to rank them individually. I have MMalone and Olajuwan as 10-11.[/QUOTE]
Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.
Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.
And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.
pippen is the greatest supertasker in NBA history
[QUOTE=bizil]In terms of Pippen, he's usually rated by most astute bball fans or experts GOAT wise anywhere from the late 20's down to 40. U would think with his resume that he would be rated somewhere at least in the teens to 20. Why is Pippen not rated that high? The reason why is because he wasn't as dominant scoring the rock as other legendary SF's or SG's. And many of those SG's and SF's were epic all around players themselves. Those are the players that Pip is compared to and that's what hurts him from being rated in the teens on a GOAT list. PG's aren't really penalized for that. Even a guy like Russell at center wasn't either. But if u are a SG or SF, MOST of the icons were dominant scorers.[/QUOTE]
Was Hondo really that domnant scoring the ball? His scoring stats rival Pippens. His scoring stats jumped because his minutes jumped.
Are we really gonna try to compare statistics from the 60s with the 90s? In 30 minutes per, Hondo was avg 20 shots a night. In 38 minutes, Pip was avg 15.
The agenda people have against Pippen is hysterical. Now Pippens stats get compared to 60s players.
One thing that frustrates me with you Biz. Is you just can't be unbiased. Context only enters your POV when its convienent. So what if those great small fowards scored more than Pippen. Pippen was much more dominant on defense. Were most of those player mentioned good defenders? Yes. AND PIPPEN WAS A GOOD SCORER.
And no scoring isn't the most important aspect of basketball. Defense, Rebounding, Offense, and teamwork are all on equal level
If a team goes out and try to outscore their opponant and give a lackluster defensive effort? They're gonna lose
If a team sets out to go iso againt their opponant, they're gonna lose.
If a team constantly get domnated on the glas both offensively and defensively, they're gonna lose.
If a team can't score, they're gonna lose.
[QUOTE=kizut1659]Good list except Hondo over Baylor. Baylor's peak was better (but not as much as people think given the inflated early 60s stats) but Hondo beats him longetivity wise and winning wise - Baylor's lack of championship HAS to count and so does the fact that the Lakers finally one won when Baylor retired midseason.
Actually i think LeBron might have surpassed Baylor already as well.[/QUOTE]
Lol Hondo played in the 60s too. You guys couldn't put reasoning and context in your post if you tried
In terms of Hondo against his perimeter counterparts in Big O, Baylor, and West, it was mainly due to scoring dominance. But Hondo played in that Celtics Dynasty on deep ass teams early in his career. When the time came for Hondo to step up his scoring he did it and showed he was a top of the line scorer. He just wasn't quite on the level of O, West, Baylor, and later Rick Barry. But in terms of all around brilliance on both sides on the floor, Hondo was the superior perimeter player of his era. Big O of course is the most iconic all around guy, but that was due to stuffing the stat sheet in the big three categories. But when u throw in defense, I think Hondo was the most well rounded.
[QUOTE=bizil]In terms of Hondo against his perimeter counterparts in Big O, Baylor, and West, it was mainly due to scoring dominance. But Hondo played in that Celtics Dynasty on deep ass teams early in his career. When the time came for Hondo to step up his scoring he did it and showed he was a top of the line scorer. He just wasn't quite on the level of O, West, Baylor, and later Rick Barry. But in terms of all around brilliance on both sides on the floor, Hondo was the superior perimeter player of his era. Big O of course is the most iconic all around guy, but that was due to stuffing the stat sheet in the big three categories. But when u throw in defense, I think Hondo was the most well rounded.[/QUOTE]
HIS SCORING WENT UP BECAUSE HIS MINUTES WENT UP. JESUS CHRIST
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Lol I'm looking at his stats and accolades when he played in the 60s, he only was able to break the top 10 in MVP voting once. And that year he was 10th. Then the highest he ever got was 4th when the ABA was at its apex and took some of the big name players from the NBA and had some big name players.
Just from looking, Hondo was never considered on West or Robinsons level.
And the two years he avg 28 ppg, he played 45 minutes per.[/QUOTE]
Havlicek spent the 60's playing on the most balanced team in basketball where one player did not dominate the team in scoring. And there was no way he was going to get a lot of MVP votes playing with Bill Russell and Sam Jones when they were at their apex.
And he was absolutely considered on the level of West and Robertson by 1969. The opinion that John Havlicek was the best all around player for a time in the early 1970's was not an isolated one.
This is no debate.. Scottie by far..
[QUOTE=97 bulls]HIS SCORING WENT UP BECAUSE HIS MINUTES WENT UP. JESUS CHRIST[/QUOTE]
That's not why his scoring went up. His scoring went up because all the other high scorers on the team faded away or retired. He was the Celtics leading scorer by his 2nd season. And he would finish 1st or 2nd for the next several years.
[QUOTE=KOBE143]This is no debate.. Scottie by far..[/QUOTE]
Scottie stan ahah
[QUOTE=nycelt84]Havlicek spent the 60's playing on the most balanced team in basketball where one player did not dominate the team in scoring. And there was no way he was going to get a lot of MVP votes playing with Bill Russell and Sam Jones when they were at their apex.
And he was absolutely considered on the level of West and Robertson by 1969. The opinion that John Havlicek was the best all around player for a time in the early 1970's was not an isolated one.[/QUOTE]
Cut the excuses. If Hondo was so great he would gotten more MVP votes.
And he was considered one of the best by the late 60s/early 70s because the ABA was taking a lot of basketballs top players. Throw Malone, Dr.J, Hawkins, and a few others in the NBA, and he would've never sniffed an MVP vote
[QUOTE=97 bulls]Was Hondo really that domnant scoring the ball? His scoring stats rival Pippens. His scoring stats jumped because his minutes jumped.
Are we really gonna try to compare statistics from the 60s with the 90s? In 30 minutes per, Hondo was avg 20 shots a night. In 38 minutes, Pip was avg 15.
The agenda people have against Pippen is hysterical. Now Pippens stats get compared to 60s players.
One thing that frustrates me with you Biz. Is you just can't be unbiased. Context only enters your POV when its convienent. So what if those great small fowards scored more than Pippen. Pippen was much more dominant on defense. Were most of those player mentioned good defenders? Yes. AND PIPPEN WAS A GOOD SCORER.
And no scoring isn't the most important aspect of basketball. Defense, Rebounding, Offense, and teamwork are all on equal level
If a team goes out and try to outscore their opponant and give a lackluster defensive effort? They're gonna lose
If a team sets out to go iso againt their opponant, they're gonna lose.
If a team constantly get domnated on the glas both offensively and defensively, they're gonna lose.
If a team can't score, they're gonna lose.[/QUOTE]
In comparison to Hondo, then YES Hondo has the clear edge scoring the rock. The comparison is Hondo vs. Pippen. And Hondo has more stage presence being a dominant scorer. If u ask most NBA experts in the know, they will tell u Hondo was a better number one option than Pippen. And it's not always how many points u score, it's also WHEN u score them. Hondo was far more CLUTCH willing a team scoring than Pip ever was. While ALSO being the blueprint for the style that Pippen went on to redefine.
And I can counter your scoring argument in terms of Hondo's minutes by saying he shot long 2 point FG's back then that would be 3 pointers today. Pip had the luxury of playing with the three point line. So that cancels that argument. And many guys couldn't be as durable playing all those minutes anyway. So it should be APPLAUDED that Hondo played all those minutes and not looked at as a crutch in terms of his scoring output. Which by the way peaked out at around 29 points a night. WITHOUT A THREE POINT LINE!!!!!
When did I EVER say scoring was the only thing that matters in bball. I NEVER SAID THAT SHIT! I have ALWAYS SAID scoring was the MOST premium asset in bball. Because the only GUARANTEED STAT which promises a W is points. If u are facing a great defensive team, u would be in great shape if u had a great scorer to combat that!