Barkley: ""I do think he can be better than Michael," Barkley said."

[QUOTE=lilgodfather1]Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.[/QUOTE]

You continue to miss the point. Show me how many outright bad games and series Jordan had in the playoffs in his first 7-8 seasons. Now show me Lebron's. The lists will be quite different.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]You continue to miss the point. Show me how many outright bad games and series Jordan had in the playoffs in his first 7-8 seasons. Now show me Lebron's. The lists will be quite different.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this, but you can't say Jordan 'never' had bad/poor game or series like you did in your previous post.

[QUOTE=rmt]This. Jordan pretty much had a perfect career. Of course, at the beginning his team wasn't good enough but the statistical dominance, 6 rings and 6 FMVPs (in addition to the global impact he had on basketball) will be very difficult to overcome.[/quote]
Exactly.

Plus his career has the built in mystique of like say a Barry Sanders. Guy retired just a 1,000 or so yards from the all-time rushing title. Which for him was a little less than one full season. He walked away that close to it, and it took Emmitt Smith extra years to pass it, and with a much better offensive line.

By walking away that close, he will forever be attached to the award, while never actually holding it. He walked away at the right time to retain a mystique, to be a legend. Everyone will always comment on how he could've got it if he wanted it.

Same goes for MJ. The man was the UNDISPUTED best player in basketball from '89 - '98. Actually should've been the MVP award winner in '89, '90, '93, and '97.

The man walked away from the sport at the pinnacle of his dominance of it, where he had an unquestionable strangle hold on the throne. Left after just 8 seasons, after a three peat, became a living legend ... got a statue REAL QUICK. His play, his entertainment value bought the city of Chicago alone a new stadium.

He left two years of his absolute peak / prime in limbo, by essentially being gone for two full seasons, which add even more mystique to his legend.

We could assume (and it is very probable) that there would've been MVPs, Championships, Finals MVPs, All NBA 1st Teams, Scoring Titles, All NBA 1st Team Defense, Steals Leader, etc. added to his already stud like resume.

He could've REALISTICALLY been the first alpha dog superstar since the Russell / Cousy Celtics to lead a team to 4x straight championships. A feat unheard of ... and still yet to be duplicated.

If he played in '94 and the full season of '95, his career point totals would have him sitting pretty near the top next to Kareem, or above him. Along with probable addittional MVPs.

His career as it stands is the best, and then you throw in the missing years of his prime / peak, and even the years of his twilight (1999, 2000, and 2001) and you have a career resume that will never be duplicated.

If he played for the Bulls in '99, 2000, and 2001 ... given his averages in '98 as a 35 year old (28 ppg), add in residual regression. I say in '99 he averages 27 ppg, 2000 he averages 26 ppg, and in 2001 averages 25 ppg.

And mind you, in 2002 as a 39 year old and before that devastating knee injury he was putting up 25 / 5 / 5 ... so these numbers aren't asinine or pulled from the anus.

And don't give me the Kobe stan response of he wouldn't have been able to hold up. MJ was more durable than Kobe. As durable as current LeBron, and only had two major injuries in his career. One a freak accident as a young man, and another a knee injury as an old as dirt man in a young man's game.

With those years he's EASILY the all-time leader in scoring. So as it stands his current resume is GOAT, then throw in the mystique of PROBABLE hypotheticals and it isn't even CLOSE.

Guy already should've had like 7 or 8 MVPs, then include the '94 and '95 seasons. Maybe add 2 - 3 rings to his total, an MVP or two and then the addition of the twilight years where he'd no longer be the best in the league, but still ELITE and putting up big numbers compared to league averages. It's borderline INSANE how great this man was. His athleticism dominated the league, his skill dominated the league, his will power dominated the league, and his intelligence dominated the league.

:biggums:

He re-invented himself and re-molded his game, time and time again to stay relevant, and dominant. There will be no one like this man ever again, and as great as LeBron is ... he doesn't have a lot of the stuff MJ had in his overall arsenal. And I absolutely feel LeBron is the greatest player SINCE MJ. Yes, even better than Shaq / Duncan / KG / Kobe / Wade.

[quote=rmt]Duncan and Kobe have no chance to be better than MJ. Their prime just wasn't anywhere near as dominant.[/QUOTE]
That too. No one's prime / peak touches MJs. His prime arguably lasted from '89 - '98. Almost a full decade. And if he played, I'm pretty sure he still would've been the best player in the game in the lock out shortened 1999 season as well.

[QUOTE=lilgodfather1]Jordan played what 20 seasons? Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.[/QUOTE]
Lebron didn't just lose though.. he lost in an embarassing, choking manner. He definitely lowered his case with those performances.

[QUOTE]Charles Barkley- post-"The Decision"
He

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Never ?

Come on... Jordan is a better playoff performer than LeBron , but to say he never had the playoff blunders and poor games/series like LeBron is a joke. Yes he did.

However, it's minimal and LeBron does have more worse series. That's the difference for me and there is achance LeBron might have another bad series in the playoffs, if not more.



Jordan played 15 seasons... 6 of 15 and 7 of those years his team had a legit cast to win a title. That's an incredible conversion rate.[/QUOTE]
LeBron's played in 9, and two years of those had a legitimate cast to win, with another two seasons being arguable.

I'm not trying to say LeBron is better than Jordan, but I just find it laughable when people dismiss the chance that he can surpass Jordan. For all we know the Heat rip off 5 or 6 in a row with LeBron winning 5 or 6 MVP awards in a row. We just can't know at this point in time. Sit back, relax, and enjoy what we have in front of our eyes now what is in our minds.

Edit: Instead of what is in our minds.

[QUOTE=ripthekik]Lebron didn't just lose though.. he lost in an embarassing, choking manner. He definitely lowered his case with those performances.


[/QUOTE]

What's ridiculous is in support of this argument that Lebron had more bad playoff performances than MJ, you will probably include Lebron's Finals against the Spurs as a terrible performance, when he was 22.

And Michael Jordan did not play in a playoff game beyond the first round until he was 25.

So you get to use Lebron's performances when was young in this, yet we can't do the same to MJ.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]What's ridiculous is in support of this argument that Lebron had more bad playoff performances than MJ, you will probably include Lebron's Finals against the Spurs as a terrible performance, when he was 22.

And Michael Jordan did not play in a playoff game beyond the first round until he was 25.

So you get to use Lebron's performances when was young in this, yet we can't do the same to MJ.[/QUOTE]

Another person missing the point. Yes, you CAN use MJ's early playoff series. He lost, but he never had truly poor series or as many bad games/blunders as Lebron has had. Give me a break. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]I agree with this, but you can't say Jordan 'never' had bad/poor game or series like you did in your previous post.[/QUOTE]

In his first 7-8 seasons he actually didn't have a poor series - nowhere near as poor as Lebron has had.

Sure he can surpass MJ but he'll have to win 7 titles to be in the conversation. But MJ stans need to stop acting like he was some infallible God, the man lost and there are other greats that can be argued for the GOAT title.

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]In his first 7-8 seasons he actually didn't have a poor series - nowhere near as poor as Lebron has had.[/QUOTE]

Their were few that weren't Jordan standards, but again, I've already acknowledged LeBron's had worse.

Charles some times talks too much.

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]Their were few that weren't Jordan standards, but again, I've already acknowledged LeBron's had worse.[/QUOTE]
Jordan did not underperform for entire series the way LeBron did ... that is fact.

I mean, even in what was for awhile LeBron's most iconic moment in the playoffs, his 48 special game v.s. Detroit in his 4th season. Few people remember outside of that one game, he played terrible the entire series.

[QUOTE=Money 23]Loki,

Do you feel LeBron is the best player SINCE MJ, though?[/QUOTE]

Shaq, then probably Lebron.

[QUOTE=Money 23]Jordan did not underperform for entire series the way LeBron did ... that is fact.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I can role with that actually.

[QUOTE]I mean, even in what was for awhile LeBron's most iconic moment in the playoffs, his 48 special game v.s. Detroit in his 4th season. Few people remember outside of that one game, he played terrible the entire series.[/QUOTE]

I think you can say the same with his 2008 performance vs the Celtics. Outside his game 7 45 point showdown vs Pierce's 41, not much to talk about... The poster on Garnett was epic though.

I'll never understand how Lebron supposedly has seperated himself as a player from Dwyane Wade, much less Michael Jordan. Other than MVP's what has Lebron done that Wade hasn't? Even when Lebron won his first two MVP's, Wade was 3rd and 5th in MVP voting.

he'll never surpass jordan because he'll never be as good as jordan was from 89-93.

he came pretty close in 09 and 2010 though.

Lebron can be be better, that's not preposterous of Charles to say.

Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now; it's just a matter of winning and being incredibly consistent. I don't foresee him being the clear GOAT though. I think such a player will be a 1 in 10 billion type deal. Even if he does win 6-7 titles, 6-7 MVPs, etc, it'll always be a debate.

[QUOTE=LeBird]Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now;[/QUOTE]

He is not better ability-wise, neither at the same age nor after the same number of years in the league. Please...:facepalm

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]He is not better ability-wise, neither at the same age nor after the same number of years in the league. Please...:facepalm[/QUOTE]
Seriously. Off the ball offensive intelligence and ability to work off the ball / read defenses quicker has MJ at a super advantage.

[QUOTE=lilgodfather1]LeBron's played in 9, and two years of those had a legitimate cast to win, with another two seasons being arguable.

I'm not trying to say LeBron is better than Jordan, but I just find it laughable when people dismiss the chance that he can surpass Jordan. [B]For all we know the Heat rip off 5 or 6 in a row with LeBron winning 5 or 6 MVP awards in a row.[/B] We just can't know at this point in time. Sit back, relax, and enjoy what we have in front of our eyes now what is in our minds.

Edit: Instead of what is in our minds.[/QUOTE]

The FAKE Cavs fans said all that noise for 7 years. Give it a rest:rolleyes:

Current Lebron, ability wise is NOT on MJ's level. MJ has shown that he can rebound and make plays to the same degree as Lebron, Lebron has not shown that he can score with the same volume and efficiency of Jordan. Not to mention that MJ was better defensively and statistically was more dominant in the regular season and the playoffs. Lebron arguably isn't even better than Kobe or Wade, how is he supposed to be better than Michael Jeffrey Jordan? :facepalm

This is so stupid. Jordan played [B]13 seasons[/B] with the bulls. He missed 64 and 65 games in two of those seasons, however, so it's closer to 11 or 11 and a half with the bulls. He played 2 more seasons in washington at 38 and 39 years of age.

Jordan went to the finals in 6 of his 11 full seasons with the bulls. He made the finals and won the finals and won finals mvp in every one of his last 6 full seasons with the bulls.

LeBron has one ring in 9 full seasons.

It's not a detriment to lose in the finals, but Jordan never did. That's why Jordan is the GOAT and West isn't. Think about it.

[QUOTE=lilgodfather1][B]Jordan played what 20 seasons? [/B]Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.[/QUOTE]

Hey may surpass Jordan but at that time Kobe will already be the undisputed GOAT.. But I doubt LeBron surpass Mike tho.. LeBron is a top 15 player of all time at best..

I hate Chuck right now.. Before I like him when he said Kobe is top 5 player of all time but now that he said LeBron can be better than Mike :facepalm , he's the same as Pippen.. Both makes idiotic comments..

[QUOTE=OldSchoolBBall]He is not better ability-wise, neither at the same age nor after the same number of years in the league. Please...:facepalm[/QUOTE]

I think in terms of basketball skillset that Jordan is slightly ahead, but Lebron is a beast when it comes to the physical side of it. If you don't even think it's close then I'll have to learn not to take you seriously from now on.

Bron has a chance to surpass MJ's accolades.

But what made MJ special wasn't that his personal resume, but HOW he did it.

I think people underrate how much Jordan improved throughout his career. He wasn't always some basketball god, he was pretty flawed in the beginning of his career too...

He'd have to improve dramatically quit quickly. He's just not very close in terms of ability right now. In a couple respects he is. In terms of rebounding and passing they're both similar, but overall Lebron just hasn't been as dominant as Jordan in his peak or prime so far. It's possible that he gets better, but I don't think he's ever going to get close to Jordan.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Lebron is not faster than Jordan.[/QUOTE]

From one end to the other at their absolute athletic peaks Lebron was probably the fastest player in the NBA.... yes, faster than MJ... his measured 4.4 (4.36 sec) 40 yard dash at the draft combine is no fluke.... to understand how fast that is take a look at the 40 yard dash world records [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash[/url] and those guys were between 5'9"-6'2"...


"[I]Justin Gatlin, who ran 9.85 s for a gold medal at the 2004 Olympic 100 metres, before being banned from the sport for abuse of performance drugs, has a verified 40-yard dash best of 4.4 s"[/I]


Quickness/Agility Lebron is not best at, Jordan was probably quicker (darting here and there), weight/size has alot to do with... but if you want to drag race, Lebron would arguably kill anybody in NBA history... he has those freakishly athletic very long and super quick strides (see Usain Bolt to see what i mean).... there is a reason he chases down anybody in the NBA 24-7, even the likes of Derrick Rose...

[quote=lilgodfather]Originally Posted by lilgodfather1
[B]Jordan played what 20 seasons?[/B] Jordan went to the finals 6 times in those 20 years meaning he failed 14 times (70% of the time). LeBron's played 9 years and been to the finals 3 times meaning he has failed 6 times 67% of the time. LeBron > Jordan by three percent...

It is not a detriment to lose in the finals. Just look at Jerry West one of the 15 greatest of all time, and ask him if he would trade losing in the finals for first/second round exits.[/quote]

[QUOTE=westside_baller]This is so stupid. Jordan played [B]13 seasons[/B] with the bulls. He missed 64 and 65 games in two of those seasons, however, so it's closer to 11 or 11 and a half with the bulls. He played 2 more seasons in washington at 38 and 39 years of age.

Jordan went to the finals in 6 of his 11 full seasons with the bulls. He made the finals and won the finals and won finals mvp in every one of his last 6 full seasons with the bulls.

LeBron has one ring in 9 full seasons.

It's not a detriment to lose in the finals, but Jordan never did. That's why Jordan is the GOAT and West isn't. Think about it.[/QUOTE]
lol owned.. sad that most people on ISH dont know crap about MJ other than random tidbits ESPN decides to show

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Lebron is not faster than Jordan.[/QUOTE]



Very plain analysis by barkley. Faster than MJ? :roll:

He forgot other factors like "mentality" and "skills"

[QUOTE=LeBird]Lebron can be better, and can be a GOAT candidate. I've said it before: [B]ability-wise he's better than Jordan was right now[/B]; it's just a matter of winning and being incredibly consistent. I don't foresee him being the clear GOAT though. I think such a player will be a 1 in 10 billion type deal. Even if he does win 6-7 titles, 6-7 MVPs, etc, it'll always be a debate.[/QUOTE]

What part of Lebron's game is better than Jordan's to merit this statement? :confusedshrug:

When it comes to offense and defense, Jordan was better. Not by a staggering margin but still a clear gap. :confusedshrug:

I don’t understand why people are so flabbergasted by this ”overcorrection” by Chuck. He did the exact same thing with Kobe.

Go back to 04, 05, 06 and 07 on Inside the NBA and Charles was ripping Kobe a new one every week. Then he saw the 2010 Phoenix series up close - the next thing you know, he in his top 5 all time.

:roll: :roll:
these letards getting owned left and right

[QUOTE]Jordan went to the finals in 6 of his 11 full seasons with the bulls. He made the finals and won the finals and won finals mvp in every one of his last 6 full seasons with the bulls.

LeBron has one ring in 9 full seasons. [/QUOTE]
game over.

Love Barkley, but i think that weight-loss left him lightheaded.

Bron isn't above Kobe, Shaq, or Duncan at this point. Potentially, sure, but it'll be hard for me to put him above Shaq as a player unless he gets a lot of rings.

His stats are sexier than Shaqs, but Shaq had a larger impact.

-Smak

[QUOTE=andgar923]Bron has a chance to surpass MJ's accolades.

But what made MJ special wasn't that his personal resume, but HOW he did it.[/QUOTE]

Disagree. Bron isn't going to win 6+ rings.

-Smak

[QUOTE=Magic 32]I don’t understand why people are so flabbergasted by this ”overcorrection” by Chuck. He did the exact same thing with Kobe.

Go back to 04, 05, 06 and 07 on Inside the NBA and Charles was ripping Kobe a new one every week. Then he saw the 2010 Phoenix series up close - the next thing you know, he in his top 5 all time.[/QUOTE]

This. NBATV is trying to sell the current NBA. They can't keep paying guys to say, "No, the best has already come. Sorry you missed out. But stick around for some of these other guys."

Jordan was so good that... if Lebron becomes better (level of play, not accolades) EVERYONE will know it. Even people that won't want to admit it will have to. He's just not there right now. The NBA and it's television partners are selling the current NBA, not the NBA from 20 years ago. Around the Horn, PTI, Sports Reporters, Halftime shows all exist because arguments and teaser quotes are arranged behind the scenes. You can't get people to watch by saying the best has already happened, stay tuned anyway. How many people are going to watch because they want to hear Barkley explain himself? How many would tune in to hear him say the status quo "Jordan's the best. These guys aren't on that level, but they're good so watch them anyway."?

[QUOTE=ILLsmak][B]Bron isn't above Kobe, Shaq, or Duncan at this point[/B]. Potentially, sure, but it'll be hard for me to put him above Shaq as a player unless he gets a lot of rings.

His stats are sexier than Shaqs, but Shaq had a larger impact.

-Smak[/QUOTE]

This. Too many people are in a rush to annoint the King.

Lebron sure has potential and he is actually on decent pace compared to what Jordan had at his age, but we shall see.... only time will tell...