At their peak - Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, and Scottie Pippen

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]I think Hill had the potential to be better than Pippen, because of the scoring ability. He had the sickest handles. He could have become the 2nd best SF ever (tho Lebron would come along).


But thinking about it now (I hadn't before), I think Penny was probably better. He didn't fall off. Those injuries killed him quick. Like Hill, he came back in Phoenix, but he was never again elite. [B]I think he could have become the 2nd best PG ever.[/B][/QUOTE]

:eek:

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]:eek:[/QUOTE]



I know. I think Chris Paul is certainly gearing down that track, and I think Penny would have primed out better...a lot to say. I didn't predict it back then, but I knew he was special. Now, with some time passed, I think I can analyze. I think so.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]:eek:[/QUOTE]

I don't think that's a huge leap to make.

If you look at his assist numbers (7 per game), maybe it does look like one, but Penny was a better passer than the 7 assists per game show.

And I'm guessing the journalists back then recognized that, as he made All-NBA First Team both of his prime years...over Gary Payton in 1995 and over both Stockton and Payton in 1996.

1. Scottie Pippen - far the the better defender among the three and slightly better offensively
2. Penny Hardaway - top 5 player in the late 90s, consider to be the next Jordan.. Cant believe Shaq cant win a chip with this player..
3. Grant Hill - almost equal to Penny but always failed to advance in the first round.. He's the Tmac of the 90s.. :lol

[QUOTE=pauk][B]1. Grant Hill (come on now, he was on his way to maybe be the Lebron before Lebron, i remember Jordan comparing his game to him in 1999 where grant averaged 26-7-5 and saying he passed the torch to him and so on, he was only getting better, then the injury happened[/B])

2. Scottie Pippen

3. Penny Hardaway


But i was more of a Penny fan, one of the smoothest/fluid games i ever seen and playing PG at 6'7 made it even sexier...

When i think about it all these players were pretty damn similar, athletic point-forwards that could do everything...[/QUOTE]

How does that even make sense? That year his scoring went up, his rebounding and assists were at their lowest since his rookie year. Besides Grant Hill on Pistons under Doug Collins had free reign to do whatever the hell he wanted. Through 96-98 that is why his assist are at their highest...he basically had the ball in his hands all the time and could do whatever he wanted, but that is nonsense that he was a Lebron before Lebron when other parts of his game were diminishing as he started scoring more. That 2000 season was also the worse he had ever been defensively. Lebron has only gotten better defensively, so that comparison is just a bunch of nonsense. It's true with a lot players frankly...when they start scoring more other parts of their game suffer....and other parts of Hills game suffered. Frankly I think people are wrong about him defensively at least as far as 96-98 he was a good defensive player, not Scottie Pippen good obviously, but I'd put him in that good range.

Grew up watching these cats play. In order: Pip, Penny, Hill. Pip def the best. Penny had the most hype going forward with all the Sprite and shoe commercials and it was warranted. Guys footwork and ability to get difficult shots off was something to watch. Always felt Hill to be a little overrated. Magic with Shaq and Penny was scary. But Pip easily the most dominant between the 3.

[QUOTE=KOBE143]1. Scottie Pippen - far the the better defender among the three and slightly better offensively
2. Penny Hardaway - top 5 player in the late 90s, consider to be the next Jordan.. Cant believe Shaq cant win a chip with this player..
3. Grant Hill - almost equal to Penny but always failed to advance in the first round.. He's the Tmac of the 90s.. :lol[/QUOTE]

1. Pippen wasn't better offensively than either, despite the similar peak scoring numbers. Penny out of the three probably had the best pure scoring skills and, had he played out his prime as a shooting guard without the injuries, easily had 27-30 ppg potential if he focused more on scoring and less on playing a facilitator role.

2. Penny's knees were more or less shot by late 90s, he peaked in mid 90s. 96 Penny was the best we ever saw from him.

I'd rank Hill first if he had the longevity; as it is, its Pippen, then Hill, with Penny a more distant third.

Penny had a better peak. And if he wasnt riddled with the injury bug for most of his career he would be considered the better player of the 3. Pippen destroys both on defense, but lets remember that MJ was double teamed through scotties whole career. MJ even stated in some interview that Penny was the hardest person in the league to guard.

Peak Penny was definitely better than peak Pippen. Hill is arguably over Pippen as well, but has a weaker case. Penny's top end, though he didn't have need to display it much, was very high.

At their invidual peaks, I'd take Penny. I still remember Penny's back to back 40 spots against the Heat in the playoffs.

Why Pippen, McGrady would be a better comparison with the other 2.

Well all 3 guys finished top 3 in MVP voting one season so it really comes down to who you rwould rather have overall.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Why Pippen, McGrady would be a better comparison with the other 2.[/QUOTE]

I also feel Penny and McGrady were similar in how they played.

But Hill is more like Lebron IMO. Main difference is Hill had a better midrange game and Lebron the better 3 point shooter.

[QUOTE=PJR]At their invidual peaks, I'd take Penny. I still remember Penny's back to back 40 spots against the Heat in the playoffs.[/QUOTE]
Funny enough this thread prompted me to check out the highlights of those games. He really was the whole package on offense.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Grant Hill's MVP runner up season... was 99 right?

25.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg on 56.5 TS%. Not to mention Hill's always been a respectable/good defender, although not as good as he has been the last 5-6 years. Penny on the other hand was a mediocre defender who could be classified as average at best.

Penny was an awesome and unique talent but he can't touch prime Hill. As for Pippen his numbers may not be quite as good as peak Hill BUT he's a top 3 perimeter defender of all time and has a case for the top spot in that regard, that alone puts him above Penny IMO.

Penny is one of those players that have become insanely overhyped long after they are gone. I watched him and he was very very gifted and good. That being said his prime was extremely short lived and outside of getting carried by young Shaq didn't do much to impress me. People act like he's Lebron but forget that he only had what 4 seasons as a top caliber player, then vanished? By comparison Tmac and Vince Carter who people act like were a flash in the pan had at leasy 7-8 seasons at the highest level at their position.[/QUOTE]

LOL at can't touch Hill, and Penny getting carried by Shaq.

In the 95-96 season where Shaq missed the 22 first games of the season, Penny led them to 17-5. That is better than Wade or Kobe ever did with Shaq sitting.
Penny was far better defensively than Hill and simply didn't put up the stats he could offensively because he played smart and in a system where he wasn't given free reign to do what he liked.

Penny was the better player no question. He was leading his team to the playoffs, and impacted the game far more. And the Shaq excuse is thrown out the window, since we've seen how he performs without him. And yes, Penny was better than Pippen too.

Even next season they were 38-21 in the 59 games Penny played; this being the 96-97 season where Shaq joined the Lakers. When Penny didn't play they were 7-16 in the remaining games. Shows how much impact he had.

You really don't have a clue as to what you're writing, and I'm not sure if you've seen more then 2 or 3 games from either Hill or Hardaway back in their Pistons and Magic days.

[B]1-Pippen
2-Hill
3-Penny[/B]

Pippen's and Hill's statlines are almost identical, but Pippen was the far superior defender. That puts him above Hill. Hardaway was a better defender than Hill and had better court vision, but his advantage on D isn't enough to put him above Hill. What I liked most about Penny is he didn't hold onto the ball like LeBron in Cleveland did. Penny had great court vision and was able to create mismatches because of his height. If an opposing team put their SG on him, Penny very easily hit Nick Anderson or Dennis Scott for an open 3.

Pip at #1 is clear as day. #2 isn't as clear cut because Hill and Penny are close, but Hill does have the slight advantage. So...Pip #1, Hill #2, and Penny #3.

Its hilarious to see all these pro Hill responses over Penny, yet you wouldn't really be able to name anything that Hill is better at than Penny.

Shooter? Penny.
Post Player? Penny.
Playmaker? Penny.
Defender? Penny.
Drive Penetration? Penny.
Passer? Penny.
More efficient? Penny.

How is Hill better again?

As of right now, obviously Scottie tops them both. But a prime Grant Hill was like a LeBron.
Peaks. Pippen's versatility is enough to put him over Penny
1. Hill
2. Pippen
3. Penny

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Why Pippen, McGrady would be a better comparison with the other 2.[/QUOTE]

Yeah i don't really get the comparison either, i guess the OP just threw Pippen in there since he was a similar versatile wing player who played at the same time they did.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]Yeah i don't really get the comparison either, i guess the OP just threw Pippen in there since he was a similar versatile wing player who played at the same time they did.[/QUOTE]
I threw Pippen's name out there because I'm in a voting panel for peaks on another site and Pippen's peak was considered better than both. I don't agree with it but I wanted to see how many others did agree with it.

[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]I threw Pippen's name out there because I'm in a voting panel for peaks on another site and Pippen's peak was considered better than both. I don't agree with it but I wanted to see how many others did agree with it.[/QUOTE]
Thats because Pippen is the best out of the three. He brings the most to the table. But to be honest, all three or four counting McGrady are on the same level

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Why Pippen, McGrady would be a better comparison with the other 2.[/QUOTE]
Why wouldnt Pip be in a discussion between these player?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Thats because Pippen is the best out of the three. He brings the most to the table. But to be honest, all three or four counting McGrady are on the same level[/QUOTE]

Pip was somehow better than Penny despite Penny making the All NBA 1st teams twice in his first 3 years, and only healthy ones really?

Penny was the only real first option out of the three.

I'll say it again when comparing Hill and Penny strictly. Out of the two, what was Hill better at?

Shooter? Penny.
Post Player? Penny.
Playmaker? Penny.
Defender? Penny.
Drive Penetration? Penny.
Passer? Penny.
More efficient? Penny.

Hill has no case over Penny in their primes.
When you look above, the same thing applies for Penny vs Pippen outside of defense. Everything else Penny had him pinned too.

[QUOTE=plowking]Pip was somehow better than Penny despite Penny making the All NBA 1st teams twice in his first 3 years, and only healthy ones really?

Penny was the only real first option out of the three.

I'll say it again when comparing Hill and Penny strictly. Out of the two, what was Hill better at?

Shooter? Penny.
Post Player? Penny.
Playmaker? Penny.
Defender? Penny.
Drive Penetration? Penny.
Passer? Penny.
More efficient? Penny.

Hill has no case over Penny in their primes.
When you look above, the same thing applies for Penny vs Pippen outside of defense. Everything else Penny had him pinned too.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Penny was better at passing. Or even running an offense. He was a SG/SF playing PG just like the others.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]I don't think Penny was better at passing. Or even running an offense. He was a SG/SF playing PG just like the others.[/QUOTE]

You don't think Penny was better at passing? :oldlol:
Pippen never showed the creativity or court vision Penny had.

Running an offense? That's so obscure and hard to prove, but Penny's track record speaks for itself. He adjusted without Shaq there, and when Shaq was there he lead them to a 17-5 record while Shaq sat out injured the first 22 games of the 95-96 season.

When u are talking MJ, Bron, Hill, Pippen, Drexler, Penny, Kobe, and T-Mac, u are talking guys in that 6'6 to 6'9 range that are freakish athletes, very good-great defenders, very good-great scorers, very good-great passers, and very good-great rebounders. U literally get the TOTAL PACKAGE which is something that makes them unique even amongst Bird and Magic. Not saying all of those guys are better than Bird and Magic, but these guys defensively and athletic ability wise gives them literally no weaknesses.

When it comes to the three guys mentioned for this post, I think Penny was the most polished and best scorer. U gotta realize Penny played his best years with the Diesel and running PG, so his scoring capabilities (like Magic) were apparent when the game was on the line or when it was time to takeover. U can't just look at his stats, even though Penny was an excellent scoring PG.

Defense wise,it clearly goes to Pippen. Rebounding wise, I would roll with Hill. Passing wise, I would take Penny. Peak value wise, I'm gonna take Hill. All at their best, I'm taking G Hill. He was a triple double threat who could get 26 a night and provide very good defense, even back then. After that I would take Penny and then Pippen.

[QUOTE=bizil]When u are talking MJ, Bron, Hill, Pippen, Drexler, Penny, Kobe, and T-Mac, u are talking guys in that 6'6 to 6'9 range that are freakish athletes, very good-great defenders, very good-great scorers, very good-great passers, and very good-great rebounders. U literally get the TOTAL PACKAGE which is something that makes them unique even amongst Bird and Magic. Not saying all of those guys are better than Bird and Magic, but these guys defensively and athletic ability wise gives them literally no weaknesses.

When it comes to the three guys mentioned for this post, I think Penny was the most polished and best scorer. U gotta realize Penny played his best years with the Diesel and running PG, so his scoring capabilities (like Magic) were apparent when the game was on the line or when it was time to takeover. U can't just look at his stats, even though Penny was an excellent scoring PG.

Defense wise,it clearly goes to Pippen. Rebounding wise, I would roll with Hill. Passing wise, I would take Penny. Peak value wise, I'm gonna take Hill. All at their best, I'm taking G Hill. He was a triple double threat who could get 26 a night and provide very good defense, even back then. After that I would take Penny and then Pippen.[/QUOTE]

Hill never played with a great rebounder in his life. Look at all those teams he played on. The two seasons he averaged 9rpg, he was the leading rebounder. In one of those seasons T-Mac was the second best rebounder on the team... :confusedshrug:

Penny was playing with Horace Grant and Shaq. Two fantastic rebounders. I don't think there is some great difference in their rebounding abilities. They were both pulling down similar offensive rebounding numbers in their primes.

[QUOTE=plowking]You don't think Penny was better at passing? :oldlol:
Pippen never showed the creativity or court vision Penny had.

Running an offense? That's so obscure and hard to prove, but Penny's track record speaks for itself. He adjusted without Shaq there, and when Shaq was there he lead them to a 17-5 record while Shaq sat out injured the first 22 games of the 95-96 season.[/QUOTE]
Court vision is such nonsense. How do you make that determination? Especially with players at this level? Assists? Flashy passes? T0s?

And im not implying Hardaway wasnt great at running a team. I just think Pippen was better.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Court vision is such nonsense. How do you make that determination? Especially with players at this level? Assists? Flashy passes? T0s?

And im not implying Hardaway wasnt great at running a team. I just think Pippen was better.[/QUOTE]

What made Pippen better at running a team?
Court vision? I'm basing that on flashy passes and splitting those impossible gaps. Pippen was much more of a bread and butter passer. He racked up assists in the triangle offense, but never did anything extraordinary. Penny had some passes that reminded you of Magic on the fast break, and Bird in the half court.

[QUOTE=plowking]Hill never played with a great rebounder in his life. Look at all those teams he played on. The two seasons he averaged 9rpg, he was the leading rebounder. In one of those seasons T-Mac was the second best rebounder on the team... :confusedshrug:

Penny was playing with Horace Grant and Shaq. Two fantastic rebounders. I don't think there is some great difference in their rebounding abilities. They were both pulling down similar offensive rebounding numbers in their primes.[/QUOTE]

I think all of three guys were great rebounders for their size. But if I had to pick, I would take Hill. Gotta remember Hill and Pippen were both in that 225 pound range while Penny was more slender and most likely 10-15 pounds lighter. Hill and Pippen also defended PF's and had more experience banging with bigger players head on than Penny did. But all three were great rebounders for their sizes and I agree with u!:cheers:

I think Hill and Pippen are great passers no doubt. But Penny I feel was closer to that Bird, Magic, Bron level of epic passing. In terms of seeing the play before it happens and threading the needle type of shit. I'm not saying Pippen or Hill weren't capable of that, but they werent quite on the level of Penny in that regard. When u have players so close in terms of assist output or intelligence, it comes down to little things like that to determine a Penny, Magic, Bron, or Bird over other great 6-6 to 6'9 passers like Hill, Pippen, Mac, MJ,Kobe, or Drexler.

[QUOTE=plowking]What made Pippen better at running a team?
Court vision? I'm basing that on flashy passes and splitting those impossible gaps. Pippen was much more of a bread and butter passer. He racked up assists in the triangle offense, but never did anything extraordinary. Penny had some passes that reminded you of Magic on the fast break, and Bird in the half court.[/QUOTE]
Pippen could make flashy passes.

Pippen was better at running a tram based on the Six championships, the top ratings in offense four times out of the eight he ran the Bulls offense.

And let's not forget that Pippen dominated Hardaway in 96 ECF.

[QUOTE=bizil]I think all of three guys were great rebounders for their size. But if I had to pick, I would take Hill. Gotta remember Hill and Pippen were both in that 225 pound range while Penny was more slender and most likely 10-15 pounds lighter. Hill and Pippen also defended PF's and had more experience banging with bigger players head on than Penny did. But all three were great rebounders for their sizes and I agree with u!:cheers:[/QUOTE]
How many boards would Hill pull if he had played with Shaq and Grant or Rodman?

[QUOTE=97 bulls]How many boards would Hill pull if he had played with Shaq and Grant or Rodman?[/QUOTE]

It is what it is. If I had to pick, I would pick Hill as the best rebounder. I stated all three were great rebounders for their size and position. I wouldn't complain at all if someone thought Pippen or Penny was the premier rebounder.

[QUOTE=97 bulls][B]Court vision is such nonsense[/B]. How do you make that determination? Especially with players at this level? Assists? Flashy passes? T0s?

And im not implying Hardaway wasnt great at running a team. I just think Pippen was better.[/QUOTE]

How is court vision non-sense, lol?

Someone like Andrew Bynum does not have it too much of it, and it costs his team buckets. Teams can double team him and much of the time he can't find the open man.

And someone like Rajon Rondo has it, and it allows him to make get his teammates open baskets.



And you make the determination by watching the games. Bynum can make the most simple pass to a clearly wide open teammate...that's all i've really seen him do so far. He's young so hopefully he can better though.

Rondo can find people open who don't even know themselves that they are open. Elite passers like him make it seem like they can see the future. It's like they watched the play on a DVR before it actually happened and knew before hand where all the defenders were going to be and in which direction they would be moving in.

It all happens really fast and is very instinctive, and so its a skill which you can't really learn or develop too much.

[QUOTE=97 bulls]Pippen could make flashy passes.

Pippen was better at running a tram based on the Six championships, the top ratings in offense four times out of the eight he ran the Bulls offense.

And let's not forget that Pippen dominated Hardaway in 96 ECF.[/QUOTE]

Dominated? He shot 35% outside of one good game. Penny averaged 26ppg that series and had a 38 point game where he shot 75% from the field.

This is why no one takes your opinions seriously on the board. You blatantly make shit up. Of course Pippen won six championships. I guess he's better at running a team than Nash as well since his rings say so. He played with the best player ever in his prime.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]How is court vision non-sense, lol?

Someone like Andrew Bynum does not have it too much of it, and it costs his team buckets. Teams can double team him and much of the time he can't find the open man.

And someone like Rajon Rondo has it, and it allows him to make get his teammates open baskets.



And you make the determination by watching the games. Bynum can make the most simple pass to a clearly wide open teammate...that's all i've really seen him do so far. He's young so hopefully he can better though.

Rondo can find people open who don't even know themselves that they are open. Elite passers like him make it seem like they can see the future. It's like they watched the play on a DVR before it actually happened and knew before hand where all the defenders were going to be and in which direction they would be moving in.

It all happens really fast and is very instinctive, and so its a skill which you can't really learn or develop too much.[/QUOTE]
If you'll reread my post. I qualified my statement by stating at this level. The difference is minimal if any. Unless you can point out times that Pippen missed open players for easy buckets.

[QUOTE=tmacattack33]How is court vision non-sense, lol?

Someone like Andrew Bynum does not have it too much of it, and it costs his team buckets. Teams can double team him and much of the time he can't find the open man.

And someone like Rajon Rondo has it, and it allows him to make get his teammates open baskets.



And you make the determination by watching the games. Bynum can make the most simple pass to a clearly wide open teammate...that's all i've really seen him do so far. He's young so hopefully he can better though.

Rondo can find people open who don't even know themselves that they are open. Elite passers like him make it seem like they can see the future. It's like they watched the play on a DVR before it actually happened and knew before hand where all the defenders were going to be and in which direction they would be moving in.

It all happens really fast and is very instinctive, and so its a skill which you can't really learn or develop too much.[/QUOTE]

U are exactly right and summed up how an epic passer like Rondo sees the game. A flashy pass is often times done because many times its UNEXPECTED. It just happens to look so awesome that it is a piece of art. When Magic was doing a no look pass, he was ACTUALLY fooling the defense. When Bird did his shit in the halfcourt and throwing dimes over his head, it was unexpected. U have guys who are great passers who make the correct pass and are very intelligent and prolific at that. But then u have guys who make the UNEXPECTED PASS in addition to that, which puts them on another level. Penny was guy who was epic at the UNEXPECTED PASS just like Bron is today. However both happen to be great athletes, and great scorers, so many coaches would prefer to play them with another PG or small combo guard to open them up for other elements.