D Antoni: One of the least efficient plays in basketball is just the straight post-up

[QUOTE=Chrono90]Either way this is all good for business cause it's creating drama.

1) D'Antoni gets to give a payback to the Knicks on Christmas. He must hate those players on that team for tanking and kicking him out. It's going to be a great game every time Knicks play Lakers.

2) Phil is going to come back and he's going to try to take out the Lakers for dissing him like this. Phil, with his resume and legacy, will not want to leave his career being swept in the playoffs. He's going to come back.

This is going to be fun.[/QUOTE]

actually a lot of the Knicks players love D Antoni still, other than Melo at least.

[QUOTE=crisoner]Won 5 titles with the boring post up game. What's your point?[/QUOTE]


yeah with Shaq, and then a prime Pau with Bynum and less aged Kobe...

if you think the Lakers have looked good in halfcourt this year then by all means keep cheering for Phil.

[QUOTE=MightyWhitey]Something no one mentioned thus far is that in a D'Antoni system there is no defense. One more time so everyone understands. In a D'Antoni system [SIZE="6"][SIZE="7"][COLOR="Black"][B][U]THERE IS NO DEFENSE!!![/U][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/SIZE]

The Lakers are done for. Dwight and Kobe are going to get rid of this coach. Mark my words. Dwight will never again win defensive player of the year now that pringles squirmed back into the NBA. I want Laker fans to know the absolute ridicule the Knicks went through for years because of D'Antoni and his failed system. You will go through this exact ridicule now.[/QUOTE]


what if you're wrong? what are most of you going to eat? i guess since the expectations are championship or bust, its likely D Antoni will fail but it is annoying how everyone thinks so much inside a box like nothing out of it can be successful :rolleyes:

PS D Antoni made a great point about San Antonio in the article. its just silly to me how people think his system can't win in this league when its been a top 5 team system consecutive years.

[QUOTE=Droid101]Ah, true colors shine, another baseless D'Antoni hater because he somehow "Screwed up" the Knicks, as if the Knicks were going to do anything with their flawed roster the last two years.

Look, I'm glad that the Knicks filled their roster with vets who want to win this season. That's awesome. But they didn't have the roster to win the last two years, period.[/QUOTE]

One of the main reasons why D'Antoni was heavily criticized by Charles Barkley was the 7 seconds or less rule and no defense. He will run Howards knees right to the surgeons office by the end of the season. Lakers may be better than the Knicks 2 seasons ago but they would have been better off with Sloan or Jackson.

[QUOTE=Godzuki]Phil would've been a lot more similar to Mike Brown's Princeton than not. if you hired Phil then you should be asking why you got Nash since he'd be like a Derrick Fisher in the triangle.[/QUOTE]


If Nash wants to win a championship, he needs to sacrifice and play more like D. Fish. He needs to follow Kobe Bryant's lead and play as a sidekick. Kobe knows how to win....

Bottom line is you want to win a championship Nash needs to sacrifice his game.

Kobe = 5 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS & COUNTING
Nash = 0 ....

[QUOTE=quick96]If Nash wants to win a championship, he needs to sacrifice and play more like D. Fish. He needs to follow Kobe Bryant's lead and play as a sidekick. Kobe knows how to win....

Bottom line is you want to win a championship Nash needs to sacrifice his game.

Kobe = 5 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS & COUNTING
Nash = 0 ....[/QUOTE]


kobe never singlehandedly led them to a championship tho, and he definitely couldn't now. i jsut can't stand the ring argument, like it automatically makes him and Phil guaranteed to win a ring. its just so flawed with no real support to the now.

Run n gun works in regular season. But in the playoffs people will figure out all your moves so they have to learn to add the post up in the games espeically in 4th quarters. That's what destroys team when people have to double, it leave someone open.

D'Antoni is not a bad coach. He is totally inflexible though. With the right roster he is fine. What killed me with the Knicks is he had the wrong roster and he just would not change anything he was doing at all. I can't imagine how unmotivating it must be for the players to be told to play in a style that is completely impossible for them to win in.

This roster fits him better so he'll be fine. If i was a laker fan my concern would be him running them into the ground. He plays guys way too many minutes, if they are old its a real problem.

[QUOTE=quick96]If Nash wants to win a championship, he needs to sacrifice and play more like D. Fish. He needs to follow Kobe Bryant's lead and play as a sidekick. Kobe knows how to win....

Bottom line is you want to win a championship Nash needs to sacrifice his game.

Kobe = 5 NBA CHAMPIONSHIPS & COUNTING
Nash = 0 ....[/QUOTE]

Why not use a weapon you have instead of hiding a former 2 time MVP in the corner?

[QUOTE=Godzuki]yeah with Shaq, and then a prime Pau with Bynum and less aged Kobe...

if you think the Lakers have looked good in halfcourt this year then by all means keep cheering for Phil.[/QUOTE]

When D'Antoni said straight post up, he didn't mean running the triangle though a passing big like Shaq or Pau

He meant when your play is to dump into into a big and they try and score. And guess what, the Lakers offense dropped off a cliff when they incorporated Bynum and tried to do that.

Look at the stats, the more time Bynum missed with injury, the better the offense played that year:
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01.html[/url]
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/[/url]

I got the lube ready and resting my arms in anticipation for today's game.

and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... AKA Lakers main problem?

[QUOTE=Godzuki]kobe never singlehandedly led them to a championship tho, and he definitely couldn't now. i jsut can't stand the ring argument, like it automatically makes him and Phil guaranteed to win a ring. its just so flawed with no real support to the now.[/QUOTE]

Jordan beat the Monstars all by himself though. The toons was garbage!!!

[QUOTE=DirtySanchez]Jordan beat the Monstars all by himself though. The toons was garbage!!![/QUOTE]

not entirely true. No Bill Murry = no win for the toonsquad. He was their x factor.

[QUOTE=TheFan]and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... AKA Lakers main problem?[/QUOTE]

what lakers are currently 8th in the league defensive efficiency.

[QUOTE=TheFan]and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... [B][U]AKA Lakers main problem?[/U][/B][/QUOTE]

Even though I was the biggest Mike Brown supporter, the Lakers main problem is gone. The defense has been good so far. Not sure what you are talking about:confusedshrug:

[QUOTE=TheFan]and thats pretty nice... but how does this solves Lakers defense... AKA Lakers main problem?[/QUOTE]

a healthy dwight howard will help fix the lakers defensive problems.

[QUOTE=Whoah10115][B]D'Antoni offense, as described, is made for Dwight Howard. So I don't get what you're saying.[/B]


And any offense where there are a lot of possessions will give Kobe plenty of time with the ball. Kobe could lead the league in scoring in this offense.[/QUOTE]

No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

Artest is not a good fit. Kobe is at his best from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

They are big. That's their advantage. They have two of the best low post players in the league. Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.

[QUOTE=Carbine]No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

Artest is not a good fit. Kobe is at his best from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

They are big. That's their advantage. They have two of the best low post players in the league. Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.[/QUOTE]


Here's an excellent pickn'roll play the Lakers could run that would put everyone at their strengths.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hPSpvdpnxUw#t=120s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hPSpvdpnxUw#t=120s[/URL]

There are plenty of pickn'roll options that doesn't require Pau to be a 3pt shooter, he's the best passing big man in the league.

[QUOTE=Carbine]No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

[B][U]Artest is not a good fit.[/U][/B] [B][U]Kobe is at his best[/U][/B] from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

[B][U]They are big.[/U][/B] That's their advantage. [B][U]They have two of the best low post players in the league. [/U][/B]Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

[B]The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.[/B][/QUOTE]

Looks like you know nothing about the game of basketball.

Carry on:lol

That fits Pau better, but you need variation. You just can't do that all the time. Artest evokes no confidence in me that he can be the type of shooter or attacker of closeouts that you need in this offense either.

Kobe could fit in any offense beause he's just that good, but this role of catch and shoot or "flow" basketball doesn't fit him that well. His best offense is one that features him in post ups and iso's and coming off screens, which is pretty much the complete opposite of the offense he will be playing in.

Jamison isn't a good fit either, and he's their first perimeter guy off the bench.

[QUOTE=Carbine]That fits Pau better, but you need variation. You just can't do that all the time. Artest evokes no confidence in me that he can be the type of shooter or attacker of closeouts that you need in this offense either.

Kobe could fit in any offense beause he's just that good, but this role of catch and shoot or "flow" basketball doesn't fit him that well. His best offense is one that features him in post ups and iso's and coming off screens, which is pretty much the complete opposite of the offense he will be playing in.

Jamison isn't a good fit either, and he's their first perimeter guy off the bench.[/QUOTE]
I think this may be there way of getting rid of Kobe.

[QUOTE=Chrono90]Post up game is not effective when you have Amare. But with Dwight and Gasol and Kobe, it's pretty weird saying we're not going to post. He's not going to say when you have Shaq, don't post up because it's inefficient. When you have great post up players, you use them. One formula can't work for all situations.

Lakers team now- Nash is aging and slower than the past. Kobe is aging and slower than the past. [B]Gasol/Dwight/Kobe are all post up players.[/B]

D'antoni- Instead of changing my system to fit the Lakers. Lakers player will change their ways to fit into my system.

Let's see how this goes. I have a bad feeling.[/QUOTE]

Gasol is a pick and pop/high post/face up big.
Dwight is a pick and roll/ defensive center
Kobe is an ISO swingman that has the ability to post, and will post regardless of what the play is or who he's facing or what coach says.

[QUOTE=Carbine]No it's not.

It's virtually going to be the same thing he did in Orlando, except he probably will get even less post touches. We all see how that worked for him offensively, it wasn't the best system for him at all to thrive.

He is always going to roll to the hoop. If you don't make him the screener on the ball, he's rendered pretty much useless and just going to clog things up because he can't shoot. w

With that said, if the team had proper pieces around Dwight, it would still be an effective TEAM offense because Dwight demands a lot of attention on his rolls to the basket, but the Lakers do not have the right players to run that system at it's highest.

The Lakers, simply put, do not have a team that's suited for pick and roll basketball. Pau is not a 3 point shooter, he's not able to attack the basket off of a sagging defender because said defender will close out with a focus of making Pau shoot a long jumper - that's exactly the type of shot you want Pau taking if you're the opposing team.

Artest is not a good fit. Kobe is at his best from a triple threat, there isn't anyone better at it....but that is not conducive to "flow" basketball when Nash pitches it out to Kobe off the pick and roll.

They are big. That's their advantage. They have two of the best low post players in the league. Why would you want to play fast and run pick and rolls when you have those two? Does anyone really think playing fast will benefit them playing the Nuggets, Heat, OKC or any other young, explosive teams?

The focus should be on slowing the game down, banging it down low, executing in the half court and making life miserable for the other team on defense.[/QUOTE]




Wow, I really disagree. Completely. Howard is a terrific pick n' roll player. He'd also get isolated more in the post.


The offense in Orlando was suited to Dwight, on the basis of their personnel. Howard may not be a great passer, but he's a willing passer and he's unselfish. It worked for those reasons.


He didn't have a true PG tho. And while Nelson was great for a while (and he did have Turkoglu, which helped a lot), he never had an elite player. Now he has Nash, plus Kobe is great on the pick n' roll.


He can't possibly get fewer touches, as the offense will maximize possessions. There's also a huge difference between LA and Orlando: Dwight is no longer the best scorer or best offensive player on his team. He's the 2nd best scorer and maybe even the 4th best offensive player (actually a stretch, as Gasol looks so bad right now). He's in a completely different place and he's also brand new. It's not the same situation. And that's before considering the cornerstone of this team is the guy who is the best scorer and who carries the burden of the team.


As far as fits...Artest is not an ideal fit, BUT...he's just about the worst player in the league. I haven't seen a guy get open nearly as often as he does, much less as open as he is...and he's not moving off the ball either. They leave him, and he still sucks. Plus, he tries to shoot off the dribble and I can't begin to believe what I see when he does. In D'Antoni's offense, he's less likely to get those chances. Fewer touches for Artest = greater happiness around the world.


And how Jamison, as a hard-working tweener with an all-around offensive game, still good athleticism, willingness to run and ability to shoot is not a good fit...he's a perfect fit.


The Lakers were going the wrong way even when Bynum was playing better. Now they have Nash and it makes no sense to go the way you're suggesting. The only issue for the Lakers is how they include Gasol in all this. But as long as Gasol is actually involved and made to feel involved, he's incredibly versatile. He's also the only sensible trade piece if they decide they need something else.

[QUOTE=Tking714]Gasol is a pick and pop/high post/face up big.
Dwight is a pick and roll/ defensive center
Kobe is an ISO swingman that has the ability to post, and will post regardless of what the play is or who he's facing or what coach says.[/QUOTE]

gasol is a GREAT low post scorer. We have been alluded to thinking otherwise ever since bynum took a huge step forward last season forcing gasol to play further and further away from the basket

[QUOTE=Levity]gasol is a GREAT low post scorer. We have been alluded to thinking otherwise ever since bynum took a huge step forward last season forcing gasol to play further and further away from the basket[/QUOTE]

Yeah he's great. But his strength is the High post, and the baseline faceup. He can definitely get into the low post better from these positions. But he's not a back-to-the-basket/backdown big per se.

Who knows what's what though with all these 6'7" centers and powerforwards in the league though.

[QUOTE=ZenMaster]Here's an excellent pickn'roll play the Lakers could run that would put everyone at their strengths.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hPSpvdpnxUw#t=120s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hPSpvdpnxUw#t=120s[/URL]

There are plenty of pickn'roll options that doesn't require Pau to be a 3pt shooter, he's the best passing big man in the league.[/QUOTE]
Oh god. I got chills. Dwight sets the screen, Pau or Kobe as the mid guy, Dwight rolls....

I seriously can't wait until the Knicks start losing so that posters like clutch can stfu

[QUOTE=Whoah10115]Wow, I really disagree. Completely. Howard is a terrific pick n' roll player. He'd also get isolated more in the post.


The offense in Orlando was suited to Dwight, on the basis of their personnel. Howard may not be a great passer, but he's a willing passer and he's unselfish. It worked for those reasons.


He didn't have a true PG tho. And while Nelson was great for a while (and he did have Turkoglu, which helped a lot), he never had an elite player. Now he has Nash, plus Kobe is great on the pick n' roll.


He can't possibly get fewer touches, as the offense will maximize possessions. There's also a huge difference between LA and Orlando: Dwight is no longer the best scorer or best offensive player on his team. He's the 2nd best scorer and maybe even the 4th best offensive player (actually a stretch, as Gasol looks so bad right now). He's in a completely different place and he's also brand new. It's not the same situation. And that's before considering the cornerstone of this team is the guy who is the best scorer and who carries the burden of the team.


As far as fits...Artest is not an ideal fit, BUT...he's just about the worst player in the league. I haven't seen a guy get open nearly as often as he does, much less as open as he is...and he's not moving off the ball either. They leave him, and he still sucks. Plus, he tries to shoot off the dribble and I can't begin to believe what I see when he does. In D'Antoni's offense, he's less likely to get those chances. Fewer touches for Artest = greater happiness around the world.


And how Jamison, as a hard-working tweener with an all-around offensive game, still good athleticism, willingness to run and ability to shoot is not a good fit...he's a perfect fit.


The Lakers were going the wrong way even when Bynum was playing better. Now they have Nash and it makes no sense to go the way you're suggesting. The only issue for the Lakers is how they include Gasol in all this. But as long as Gasol is actually involved and made to feel involved, he's incredibly versatile. He's also the only sensible trade piece if they decide they need something else.[/QUOTE]

Good news - one of us will be right.

Bad news - one of us will be wrong.

[QUOTE=Rekindled]what lakers are currently 8th in the league defensive efficiency.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=hawke812]Even though I was the biggest Mike Brown supporter, the Lakers main problem is gone. The defense has been good so far. Not sure what you are talking about:confusedshrug:[/QUOTE]

are you sure?
Offense seemed alright, Lakers offense always has been effective... they can't guard athletic guards... watch the game against the Mavs and the game against Clippers.

:facepalm

Maybe if you don't have players that can work in the post but with dudes like Kobe, Pau and Howard it is efficient.

Not saying playing the pick n roll game with passers like Nash and players like Pau or Horward is not great but if you don't let them post up you're just dumb, especially in this league.

Everyone is focused on the wrong things here.

The offense will work, really well.

The no defense thing is a pure myth.

What will kill them is D'Antoni's total lack of rotation. The starters will be getting 38mpg+ which is gonna kill these older bodies.

[QUOTE=TheFan]are you sure?
Offense seemed alright, Lakers offense always has been effective... they can't guard athletic guards... watch the game against the Mavs and the game against Clippers.[/QUOTE]

Going by off/def rating, Lakers are 9th on offense and 12th on defense

Quick guards have killed us since 09, but if anyone in the league can can cover our backcourt it's a healthy Dwight.

And Nash/D'Antoni will improve the offense. There's no question about that.

And the thing is, short of a season ending injury, the Lakers couldn't have had a worse start to the season and every advanced stat shows that the Lakers are a top 5-10 team. Writing them off now would be like writing off the 9-7 Heat

[QUOTE=Clutch]If you play Princeton/Triangle offense - Nash not used the right way
If you play D'Antoni's offense - Kobe,Gasol and Dwight not used the right way

Pick your poison :lol[/QUOTE]


Nash doesn't really work in the Princeton/triangle, But Kobe Gasol and Dwight are not strictly post up players. They can all play face up games and fit in to D'antoni's offense. If we were talking Bynum, what you said would make perfect sense, because he doesn't have the versatility or mobility of Howard or Gasol. They should be able to fit in fine, I'm sure there will be times when they have to resort to their size inside to exploit smaller teams in the post, thus giving them opportunities to use their post up skills once in a while.

[QUOTE=Tking714]Yeah he's great. But his strength is the High post, and the baseline faceup. He can definitely get into the low post better from these positions. But he's not a back-to-the-basket/backdown big per se.
[/QUOTE]



I don't really agree. His game is all-around. Was McHale a back-down player? He got the ball in the post, established position, and then his up-and-unders and fakes all came into play. But he wasn't Ewing or Barkley backing guys down. Gasol is much the same, tho he has a more all-around game, able to get in the high post and facilitate.


[QUOTE=Carbine]Good news - one of us will be right.

Bad news - one of us will be wrong.[/QUOTE]


:cheers: