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[QUOTE=Teanett]did you watch dwight the last few games? he's terrible right now.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how you can judge Dwight from just his last two games. He should still be considered one of the best centers in the NBA right now. We can't leave him out of the argument, especially when we are speaking top three.
[QUOTE=brandonislegend]Someone that is allergic to rebounding should not be considered as a TOP nba center.[/QUOTE]
Marc Gasol is averaging all of 7 boards a game and you claimed he was the best.
stats stats stats...
lol at op not putting dwight in there and then everybody letting him get away with it.
[QUOTE=DStebb716]lol at op not putting dwight in there and then everybody letting him get away with it.[/QUOTE]
I know right?
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Once again, the thread is about where the players are right now, not what your personal opinion is by the end of the season. You would have to be utterly insane not to give Varejao the nod at this stage of the season.
Varejao's "pathetic lack of blocks" is really going to be your sticking point?
Varejao gets over double the amount of rebounds per game as compared to Lopez, which is absolutely crucial for a big man. The disparity in scoring isn't nearly as large as the disparity in rebounding. Varejao leads the entire league in rebounding... Does that not count for much these days? I've always felt rebounding was a rather important aspect of the game, especially for a big man.
Varejao is a FAR superior rebounder, a far superior passer, a far superior individual man defender.
Lopez five more points on three more shots per game and he blocks shots better.
And, furthermore, Varejao embarrassed the guy head-to-head. Nothing more to see here.[/QUOTE]
Ok so..
Varejeo is clearly a better rebounder, man defender and passer
while Lopez is clearly a better scorer, primary or secondary offensive option(aka not a cleanup man), and rim protector
and Varejeo is clearly better? And Lopez does it on a competitive team while varejeo is stat stuffing on a lottery team. I think you're the one who needs his head checked.
Lopez is better by a fvcking country mile at the most important defensive category there is while Anderson is better at the less important man post defense(in a perimeter oriented league where there are few traditional post up guys). Anderson is much better at rebounding which gives him a small defensive edge when combined with his man D and put up against Brook's traditional rim defense. But then on offense you're comparing a glorified clean up man to the highest scoring and most offensively skilled center in the league. Brook is actually an OPTION on offense. He isn't just feasting off the normal flow of the game. He has the ability to get the ball in an iso and do something with it. He can dictate momentum in a game. Varejeo is Kris Humphries with a little more skill and flair. This comparison is a joke.
[QUOTE=RedBlackAttack]Once again, the thread is about where the players are right now, not what your personal opinion is by the end of the season. You would have to be utterly insane not to give Varejao the nod at this stage of the season.
Varejao's "pathetic lack of blocks" is really going to be your sticking point?
Varejao gets over double the amount of rebounds per game as compared to Lopez, which is absolutely crucial for a big man. The disparity in scoring isn't nearly as large as the disparity in rebounding. Varejao leads the entire league in rebounding... Does that not count for much these days? I've always felt rebounding was a rather important aspect of the game, especially for a big man.
Varejao is a FAR superior rebounder, a far superior passer, a far superior individual man defender.
Lopez five more points on three more shots per game and he blocks shots better.
And, furthermore, Varejao embarrassed the guy head-to-head. Nothing more to see here.[/QUOTE]
He embarrassed him? Then why couldn't he defend Lopez?
Meanwhile which front line...
Had more points
More rebounds
More blocks
Scored much much more efficiently
Won the game
?
And if you watched the game intently, Lopez wasn't matched up with Varejo in 1-1 often, when they were Lopez did fine. The biggest problem for the Nets all season (and last season) has been Derons defense which makes the bigs vulnerable. Irving owned Deron that night and his penetration and dish offs to varejao are what got AV 80% of his points.
Right now Lopez is the best scoring center, one of the best shotblocking centers and he is by far and away the MVP of the Nets...best in the league...no that's Dwight, but depending on your team, theirs needs and their PF lopez could be the 2nd most desirable for some teams.
[QUOTE=ChuckOakley]He embarrassed him? Then why couldn't he defend Lopez?
Meanwhile which front line...
Had more points
More rebounds
More blocks
Scored much much more efficiently
Won the game
?
And if you watched the game intently, Lopez wasn't matched up with Varejo in 1-1 often, when they were Lopez did fine. The biggest problem for the Nets all season (and last season) has been Derons defense which makes the bigs vulnerab[B][SIZE="4"]le. Irving owned Deron that night and his penetration and dish offs to varejao are what got AV 80% of his points.[/SIZE][/B]
Right now Lopez is the best scoring center, one of the best shotblocking centers and he is by far and away the MVP of the Nets...best in the league...no that's Dwight, but depending on your team, theirs needs and their PF lopez could be the 2nd most desirable for some teams.[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY.
Cant believe Im arguing with someone who doesnt even watch the games hes using as evidence.:facepalm
:wtf:
1.) Gortat
2.) the rest
[QUOTE=ChuckOakley]He embarrassed him? Then why couldn't he defend Lopez?
Meanwhile which front line...
Had more points
More rebounds
More blocks
Scored much much more efficiently
Won the game
?
And if you watched the game intently, Lopez wasn't matched up with Varejo in 1-1 often, when they were Lopez did fine. The biggest problem for the Nets all season (and last season) has been Derons defense which makes the bigs vulnerable. Irving owned Deron that night and his penetration and dish offs to varejao are what got AV 80% of his points.
Right now Lopez is the best scoring center, one of the best shotblocking centers and he is by far and away the MVP of the Nets...best in the league...no that's Dwight, but depending on your team, theirs needs and their PF lopez could be the 2nd most desirable for some teams.[/QUOTE]
Wait, so you are arguing that perimeter defense contributes to Lopez's defensive problems? If that's the case, what about Varejao who has Kyrie Irving attempting to defend the point (awful defender) and a rookie defending the 2? There is essentially a path to the line all night, every night for the Cavs and it is Varejao and Thompson, primarily, who have to clean up the mess.
Also, I would agree that Irving and Varejao's two-man game are what has helped make Andy an offensive weapon this year, but he also deserves credit for making the tandem work so well. He plays the high pick and roll very well and they have a wonderful feel for one another's game. You couldn't just stick any big in the league out there and he is going to produce the way Varejao has. He has incredibly soft hands around the basket, is a good finisher, and has even added that little 15-18 foot jumper to his game.... Plus, he's a very good passer for a big man and he cleans up misses like no one else in the league.
Btw, I did watch that game closely and Varejao couldn't miss that night and a lot of his points came from offensive rebounds and put-backs... Which is no surprise considering he is the best offensive rebounder in the NBA and extraordinarily good at put-backs. He had 11 offensive rebounds that night.
Yes, Kyrie set him up several times, which is because they work extremely well together offensviely... A credit to both players. I would also note that the vast majority of Lopez's points came from inside the paint that night, as well, which I'm sure had nothing to do with a bad defensive backcourt for the Cavs.
Look, I showed Varejao's pretty amazing statlines this season above. You have to try really hard not to be impressed.
That includes the last two games, during which time Kyrie has been injured.
vs. Philadelphia - 10 points, 19 rebounds, 2 assists
@ Orlando - 19 points, 17 rebounds, 3 assists
Clearly, this isn't just a case of Irving making Varejao a very good player... He's just very good.
1A. Howard
1B. Bosh
1C. Duncan
[QUOTE=RoundMoundOfReb]based on recent play:
1. Duncan
2. bosh[/QUOTE]
+1
Are people really thinking Varejao is better than Brook Lopez?
[quote=RRR3]Marc Gasol is averaging all of 7 boards a game and you claimed he was the best.[/quote]
Gasol is teamed up with the best rebounder in league in ZBO (14boards a game). Of course his boards are going to suffer a bit, but he doesnt fight zbo for rbds because he knows zbo is going to get them. Last night he led all players in assists with 8. Gasol plays team ball. He does what it takes to win
[QUOTE=ncrizzle]Gasol is teamed up with the best rebounder in league in ZBO (14boards a game). Of course his boards are going to suffer a bit, but he doesnt fight zbo for rbds because he knows zbo is going to get them. Last night he led all players in assists with 8. Gasol plays team ball. He does what it takes to win[/QUOTE]
true
Gasol would average 10 rebounds a night of Z-Bo was hurt or something
Tim Duncan has arguably been the best big man this season. A top 10 player overall too.
Duncan is playing very well this season:
18.5 points / 10.9 rebs / 2.4 assts / 0.9 steals / 2.3 blks 51.7% FG 74.6 % FT in 30.7 minutes.
Duncan is an ever green bastard
[QUOTE=rmt]Duncan is playing very well this season:
18.5 points / 10.9 rebs / 2.4 assts / 0.9 steals / 2.3 blks 51.7% FG 74.6 % FT in 30.7 minutes.[/QUOTE]
He plays well every season. Dude is seriously the epitome of consistency.
Chris Boshasaurus is playing like one of the best.
20 ppg/8.2 rpg/1.4 apg/1.3 bpg/.8 spg/56% FG/ 33.5 mpg
One guy that isn't mentioned enough is Festuz Ezili. Ezili just hasn't backed down. In case u don't know him, he is Bogut's back up.
Ironically, The Warriors definitely know about the center position this year, even though Bogut is still out. In a league where the center spot is lacking, the Warriors actually have 3 Legitimate Centers.
Andrew Bogut, Festus Ezili, and Andris Biedrins.
And despite what your opinion on Biedrins is, he has supplied ample defense and rebounding this year in the limited minutes he has played
Al Horford averaging 16 ppg, 9 rpg, and 3apg the underrated undersized machine
There aren't very many true centers anymore. A lot of elite power forwards became centers like duncan or garnett. Now don't get me wrong, they definitely have the size to be a center, but they are also able to do that because the league doesn't have the size and skill that it used to at that spot. There are really only a handful of real quality ''centers.'' Their are big men and 4's and 4's who are tall enough to play the center, but there are only a handful of real centers. When you put Gallanari at the center, Bosh at center at times, Horford at center, then you know that there aren't as many quality centers available. Other centers such as Blaire, Perkins, or Nene have the size for a center, but not the ideal height.
Robin Lopez - "I'm just feeling like the throne is for the taking, watch me take it."
[QUOTE=SacJB Shady]There aren't very many true centers anymore. A lot of elite power forwards became centers like duncan or garnett. Now don't get me wrong, they definitely have the size to be a center, but they are also able to do that because the league doesn't have the size and skill that it used to at that spot. There are really only a handful of real quality ''centers.'' Their are big men and 4's and 4's who are tall enough to play the center, but there are only a handful of real centers. When you put Gallanari at the center, Bosh at center at times, Horford at center, then you know that there aren't as many quality centers available. Other centers such as Blaire, Perkins, or Nene have the size for a center, but not the ideal height.[/QUOTE]
Roy Hibbert
Greg Monroe
Joakim Noah
Demarcus Cousins
Andrew Bynum
Marc Gasol
Al Jefferson
Andrew Bogut
Chris Kaman
Tyson Chandler
Dwight Howard
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
Deandre Jordan
[QUOTE=SacJB Shady]There aren't very many true centers anymore. A lot of elite power forwards became centers like duncan or garnett. Now don't get me wrong, they definitely have the size to be a center, but they are also able to do that because the league doesn't have the size and skill that it used to at that spot. There are really only a handful of real quality ''centers.'' Their are big men and 4's and 4's who are tall enough to play the center, but there are only a handful of real centers. When you put Gallanari at the center, Bosh at center at times, Horford at center, then you know that there aren't as many quality centers available. Other centers such as Blaire, Perkins, or Nene have the size for a center, but not the ideal height.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree. There are LOTS of centers in the League, they are playing at a VERY high level, and these guys are just as big today as they were in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s.
For 50 years the average NBA center has been 6'9" to 6'11" tall and weighed 220-275 lbs.
Those dimensions have never changed from 1960 to the present day.
Guys have been taller and dominated, and guys have been shorter and dominated, but by and large those are the NBA dimensions at center.
Now, if you mean elite centers, there never were very many. What I mean is, when you talk about [I]elite[/I] players at Center, that number has not varied. There were about 4 truly elite centers in the 60s, and there are about 4 truly elite centers today. I mean playing at the time, within the era of the League.
It has not mattered one single fraction how many teams there are in the league; at any given point in time you are going to find about that many true very best of the best centers in the world.
There was a Sports Illustrated article here a year or two ago that suggested there were about 90 people in the United States that were 7' tall.
When you have a pool that is so infinitesimally small, you are only going to get one or two people a generation that have a) an interest, b) a skillset, and c) the required athleticism... to even make it to the NBA.
Now then within that group of 25 or 30 all-time greatest centers of their eras of course you can have your opinions about which is best , rankings and all that - but the numbers have not changed in all those years, contrary to these really woollyheaded opinions you see about evolution and so forth.
[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]I don't agree. There are LOTS of centers in the League, they are playing at a VERY high level, and these guys are just as big today as they were in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s.
For 50 years the average NBA center has been 6'9" to 6'11" tall and weighed 220-275 lbs.
Those dimensions have never changed from 1960 to the present day.
Guys have been taller and dominated, and guys have been shorter and dominated, but by and large those are the NBA dimensions at center.
Now, if you mean elite centers, there never were very many. What I mean is, when you talk about [I]elite[/I] players at Center, that number has not varied. There were about 4 truly elite centers in the 60s, and there are about 4 truly elite centers today. I mean playing at the time, within the era of the League.
It has not mattered one single fraction how many teams there are in the league; at any given point in time you are going to find about that many true very best of the best centers in the world.
There was a Sports Illustrated article here a year or two ago that suggested there were about 90 people in the United States that were 7' tall.
When you have a pool that is so infinitesimally small, you are only going to get one or two people a generation that have a) an interest, b) a skillset, and c) the required athleticism... to even make it to the NBA.
Now then within that group of 25 or 30 all-time greatest centers of their eras of course you can have your opinions about which is best , rankings and all that - but the numbers have not changed in all those years, contrary to these really woollyheaded opinions you see about evolution and so forth.[/QUOTE]
I agree. I don't think people realize just how much the rule changes have affected big men. It's far more difficult to be a post player today then it was ever before. It's so easy for defenses to collapse on you due to zone spacing and the back to the basket rule doesn't help either.
[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]
Now, if you mean elite centers, there never were very many. What I mean is, when you talk about [I]elite[/I] players at Center, that number has not varied. There were about 4 truly elite centers in the 60s, and there are about 4 truly elite centers today. I mean playing at the time, within the era of the League.
[/QUOTE]
but the elite now is on a much lower level.
for example, anderson varejao is named as one of the better centers in the league. last game he was isolated on shane battier about 9 feet from the basket but instead of instantly trying to score he passed it out... :wtf:
i mean, even if chris bosh would be the defender, a decent to good nba center should take advantage of that.
dont you think guys like rik smits, brad daugherty, rony seikaly etc. would even hesitate with shane battier guarding them?
[QUOTE=Teanett]but the elite now is on a much lower level.
for example, anderson varejao is named as one of the better centers in the league. last game he was isolated on shane battier about 9 feet from the basket but instead of instantly trying to score he passed it out... :wtf:
i mean, even if chris bosh would be the defender, a decent to good nba center should take advantage of that.
dont you think guys like rik smits, brad daugherty, rony seikaly etc. would even hesitate with shane battier guarding them?[/QUOTE]
Let's look at it again at the end of this season, where flopping is FINALLY being addressed by the league. Because that fact has done a lot of damage to pro basketball, the more pure style of playing before Divac and Chris Paul ruined the sport.
I mean look at Griffin or Wade and it's been quite a while that has been going on. It will take a while, but I predict the real men are gonna step up their game.
Without knowing the play you are talking about.... I get where you are comin from on that.... yes I do think Battier would have got run over by Shaq era Centers. Or Artis Gilmore or Moses crashing the lane and leaving a trail of broken doll bodies behind em.
But I also wonder about Kareem & Mr. ShakenBake Hakeem O, and some of the other, earlier guys. They might have gone a different way than smashing over the defender.
[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]
But I also wonder about Kareem & Mr. ShakenBake Hakeem O, and some of the other, earlier guys. They might have gone a different way than smashing over the defender.[/QUOTE]
any fundamentally sound basketball player will exploit a height advantage without smashing over the defender.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill]Roy Hibbert
Greg Monroe
Joakim Noah
Demarcus Cousins
Andrew Bynum
Marc Gasol
Al Jefferson
Andrew Bogut
Chris Kaman
Tyson Chandler
Dwight Howard
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
Deandre Jordan[/QUOTE]
Greg Monroe
Joakim Noah
Demarcus Cousins- great player but not quite a 7 footer
Andrew Bynum
Marc Gasol
Al Jefferson- Good player, but again more like a 4 at only 6 foot 10
Andrew Bogut
Chris Kaman
Tyson Chandler
Dwight Howard
Brook Lopez
Nikola Pekovic- Good size but only about 6 ft 10 in height
Omer Asik- Yes a true center but been a sub most his career
Deandre Jordan- Has the length for shot blocking but not tough on the glass
This list is still only 14 players in a league with 30 teams. Only about 9 or 10 of these are true quality centers. I remember the 90's with Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, and Robinson. Plus guys like Rick Schmidt, Luc Longley, Ronny Seikly, and Alonzo Mourning.
[QUOTE=Teanett]any fundamentally sound basketball player will exploit a height advantage without smashing over the defender.[/QUOTE]
yes you said it in one sentence took me 10. i need to learn laconic speech
[QUOTE=La Frescobaldi]My favorite position ~ ~ C
I had started the season going like this.......
1. d12
2. Bynum
3. Monroe & Pekovic fighting for this spot.
4. D Jordan
5. David Lee - who gets ignored by everybody for some reason.
Clearly I hadn't reckoned on Varejao, who I can't seem to catch a game, and J Noah who has developed into an elite player (in spite of the fact I can't stand the chumpiness of his ways).
Not accounting for injuries etc., CBS has center "power ratings"... these guys of Teanett are all over the place but [I]they[/I] show it like this:
1 d12
2 Varejao
3. Noah
4. David Lee
[B]5. Marc Gasol[/B]
6. G Monroe
7. A Jefferson
8. Al Horford
9. Cousins
[B]10. B Lopez[/B]
11. Bargnani
12. Kaman
13. B Mullins
[B]14. Asik[/B]
15. Pekovic
16. T Chandler
17. Vucevic
18. Hibbert
19 D Jordan
20 Robin Lopez
[url]http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/C[/url]
The matchups I want to see in this league right now are these:
[B]D Howard - O Asik[/B]
D12 weakness: not much. Injuries.
Asik weakness: inexperience, possibly physical weakness.
[B]N Pekovic - G Monroe[/B]
Pek weakness: passing, injuries.
Monroe weakness: tendency to overplay early and fade bad in 4q.
[B]B Lopez - J Noah[/B]
Lopez weakness: Have not seen enough; Pekovic destroyed him
Noah weakness: can be shoved around easily, but not much. Defense can be appallingly bad for a center that plays in the NBA. Played Pek to a standoff
M Gasol - A Varejeo
haven't seen these guys this year...
D Lee - Bargnani
D Lee weakness: wants to have teammates but doesn't.
Bargnani - haven't seen but my friends say he is the real thing on a bad team. Just looking at stat line from last night, Monroe had all he could handle and that is saying a lot
we will have some clarity at the C when we have seen those answered; nobody I have seen is close to Howard since Shaq retired (although d12 won't ever be at that level though). I count Timi Dunkin as a PF otherwise clearly he's the best C of the last generation, and possibly since Hakeem.[/QUOTE]
CBS's Center Power Rankings 2 weeks later
1. Dwight Howard
2. Anderson Varejao
3. David Lee
4. Al Jefferson
5. Joakim Noah
6. Marc Gasol
7. Al Horford
8. Greg Monroe
9. Tyson Chandler
10. DeMarcus Cousins
11. Brook Lopez
12. Andrea Bargnani
13. Omer Asik
14. Nikola Pekovic
15. Byron Mullens
16. Nikola Vucevic
17. Robin Lopez
17. Chris Kaman
19. Roy Hibbert
20. DeAndre Jordan
Clearly David Lee getting zero attention for [I]some[/I] reason. Of course this list is based on CBS stat lines and has no account for things like Roy Hibbert ability to change a game with a hard body check, or Brook Lopez fluid game.
******************************************************************
Tonight I'm hoping to catch a key NBA matchup ~[B] Varejao & Pekovic[/B]
Wolves (8-9) vs. Cavaliers (4-15) - 7 PM Central @ Target Center in Minneapolis
Both star point guards are out with injuries ~ making this matchup even more interesting. Both players will have to bring their best inside game without the benefit of a game-stretching outside force in K. Irving or Rubio.
I have not seen too much of Varejao so far this year.... tonight will have even that added edge:
[B]Anderson Varejao statline for this season:[/B]
MPG 36
PPG 15.0
RPG 15.40
APG 3.2
EFF + 26.89
From what I've read, Anderson has been carrying most of the duties for the Cavs in the paint so far this year, and is having a career season. He seemed to have no difficulty against the Grizzlies front line
[B]Nicola Pekovic statline for this season:[/B]
MPG 31
PPG 14.2
RPG 7.50
APG 1.3
EFF + 15.67
Pek has had some injuries but so far not a whisper about bone spurs, which he had surgery on during off-season. His partner in the paint is Kevin Love.
Let the games begin.
During the early 2000's a lot of people said that shaq had to do with a lot of it. People like garnett, duncan, webber all had to play pf because they cant deal with shaq on D.
Now we see the opposite happening
[IMG]http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/002/574/682/hi-res-138681767_display_image.jpg[/IMG]
15ppg .502fg% .775ft%
15.4rpg 6.1orpg 32.4drb% 24.8trb%
3.2apg 1.6spg 0.4bpg
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][IMG]http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/002/574/682/hi-res-138681767_display_image.jpg[/IMG]
15ppg .502fg% .775ft%
15.4rpg 6.1orpg 32.4drb% 24.8trb%
3.2apg 1.6spg 0.4bpg[/QUOTE]
[img]http://binaryapi.ap.org/f7dcf569062c4f8086eddd07571b8249/512x.jpg[/img]
[IMG]http://sports.cbsimg.net/images/visual/whatshot/tyson-chandler-bunny.jpg[/IMG]
this matchup was good fun:
[IMG]http://images.smh.com.au/2012/12/05/3866546/---aaalopezwide-20121205175538957912-620x349.jpg[/IMG]
KG an Webber played PF because they were PF's who wanted to be guards. Tim Duncan played PF because David Robinson was already on the team. None of them did it because of Shaq.
David Lee as a center? David Lee can't play center. Defensively, your team would be in trouble.
[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW][IMG]http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/002/574/682/hi-res-138681767_display_image.jpg[/IMG]
15ppg .502fg% .775ft%
15.4rpg 6.1orpg 32.4drb% 24.8trb%
3.2apg 1.6spg 0.4bpg[/QUOTE]
Pek's role tonight was to stop Cavs best player. Nicola had only about 4 feeds all night long, as opposed to his usual 10 or 12, and he missed them all. He didn't completely shut down AV tonight, but he ruined his game pretty thoroughly.
That 15pts & 15rbs went to 4 & 14 and AV going for the Cavs record on double double streak came to a screeching halt.
The game also brought an interesting fact. K Love spent significant minutes guarding the big guy from Cleveland (who spent a lot of time playing power forward), including several minutes at the 5 position: once again ISH rumors about Love's bad defense are fool's game.
My view was Pekovic nullified Varejao to a draw.