Vote for the Top 10 Defensive Players in NBA History

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]
its favored towards big men because theyre taller[/QUOTE]
And?

[QUOTE]so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd [/QUOTE]
:facepalm

[QUOTE]and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points [/QUOTE]
It's sad that you actually think the reason big men are considered better defenders is because of blocked shots.

You can't be a real person. Or, at the very least, this has to be some alternate internet persona of yours that you slip into from time to time to have some fun with morons like me who get sucked in by your stupidity.

Saying you're stupid would be a huge insult to stupid people.

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]rebounds are great. i'm just saying you get more when your a big man. and its totally different than offense or defense. its grabbing a basketball thats in the air. its niether stopping a guy from shooting or shooting over someone

its favored towards big men because theyre taller

so to just say someones a better defender because theyre taller and their position is beside the basket is kind of absurd


and blocks are verry usefull aswell. but its mainly a big mans game. you cant judge perimeter defense on blocks because coaches teach you not to try and block three point shooters or jump shooters because theyel bait you into the foul

contesting shots and staying infront of your defender is guard defense. and thats verry hard to measure in the box score other than the apposing team players points/fg%/turnovers

when it comes down to it you cannot compare big men to guards in terms of defense because its 2 completely different types of defense.

big men almost always win the DPOTY award because of this unfair advantage in recorded statistics and rebounding counting


when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10

and blocking a shot 2 times a game is not more valuable that stopping a great scorer from putting up 30 points


its actually harder to be a perimeter defender because the best scorers are guards/small forwards[/QUOTE]

What a clown :oldlol:

[QUOTE=kennethgriffin]
its favored towards big men because theyre taller
[/QUOTE]

Not all things in life are fair. Height is a huge factor in why big men are usually better defenders than guards, but such is life.

[QUOTE]
when infact a guard who averages 6-7 rebounds is more impressive than a center who averages 9-10
[/QUOTE]

You bring up an interesting point here. It's related to a question I've asked on here before, but for which I really didn't get a response. What helps a team more: a pg who grabs 7 rebounds a game, or a center who grabs 9 rebounds a game? Is the center even helping his team at all?

Anyone that doesn't have David Robinson in their top 10 should be banned.

[QUOTE=WillC]Why are you so angry?[/QUOTE]

I'm not angry. If you would single me out, then apparently you don't read many threads on here.

[QUOTE=WillC]That's your second negative post in this thread.[/QUOTE]

I haven't said anything negative, I've only stated fact. You actually acknowledged my first point, and somehow bringing attention to an overlooked NBA great is perceived as negative. Interesting. (Also interesting that you've chosen to comment on me rather than other posts in this very thread.) But that's why I rarely discuss NBA history here anymore.

It's also interesting in that my second post wasn't even in reply to anything you wrote, unlike me first post, yet you felt compelled to reply to it. The interesting question is why.

[QUOTE=WillC]You talk as if you know everything and others know nothing.[/QUOTE]

Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort. Other people's insecurities are none of my concern.

[QUOTE=WillC]I'm well aware of Thurmond's incredible defensive abilities.[/QUOTE]

If you're not one of the people who's overlooked Thurmond, then what exactly is your point? You were one of the few in this thread who even mentioned him. As previously aforementioned, my second post wasn't either in reply to or directed at you, yet for some reason you felt the need to say you're aware of Thurmond's defensive abilities when you already had him on your "short list." So I'm failing to see the purpose of this statement.

[QUOTE=WillC]I think you're the only one around here who is being disrespectful by assuming that others know less than you do.[/QUOTE]

I'm unsure why you feel so threatened or take so much offense to everything I say. Still, it's good to have where someone stands out in the open. Since my posts alone are unwelcome, if you wish me to discontinue posting in your thread, then I will oblige you. You shan't have to worry about seeing any more of my posts in any of your subjects.

Any list without Duncan is wack.

[IMG]http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2007/1029/nba_g_duncan_580.jpg[/IMG]

#1 in Blocks in the Playoffs. #9 in Blocks in the Regular season ... Anchored some of the best defenses of all time.

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]I'm not angry. If you would single me out, then apparently you don't read many threads on here.



I haven't said anything negative, I've only stated fact. You actually acknowledged my first point, and somehow bringing attention to an overlooked NBA great is perceived as negative. Interesting. (Also interesting that you've chosen to comment on me rather than other posts in this very thread.) But that's why I rarely discuss NBA history here anymore.

It's also interesting in that my second post wasn't even in reply to anything you wrote, unlike me first post, yet you felt compelled to reply to it. The interesting question is why.



Nice strawman. I said nothing of the sort. Other people's insecurities are none of my concern.



If you're not one of the people who's overlooked Thurmond, then what exactly is your point? You were one of the few in this thread who even mentioned him. As previously aforementioned, my second post wasn't either in reply to or directed at you, yet for some reason you felt the need to say you're aware of Thurmond's defensive abilities when you already had him on your "short list." So I'm failing to see the purpose of this statement.



I'm unsure why you feel so threatened or take so much offense to everything I say. Still, it's good to have where someone stands out in the open. Since my posts alone are unwelcome, if you wish me to discontinue posting in your thread, then I will oblige you. You shan't have to worry about seeing any more of my posts in any of your subjects.[/QUOTE]

Almost every single one of your posts on this board has a 'holier than thou' undertone to them. WillC isn't the only one to notice. You undoubtedly know more about the history of the NBA than the vast majority on here but your intillectual snobbery shines through like a Baboon's backside. It can be off-putting. Don't mean to gang up on you, although I have a feeling you don't care in the slightest what I think, anyway.

[QUOTE=HardwoodLegend]Pardon my ignorance (I don't know enough to compile a Top 10), but what is Kevin Love doing on the short list while Bryon "Jordan Stopper" Russell and Ruben "Kobe Stopper" Patterson are absent?[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I'm not quite sure how Kevin Love ended up on my shortlist.

I put the list together by just grabbing a list of players from an Excel spreadsheet that I've got with loads of players listed and their corresponding accolades. As such, the list generally features players with at least on All-Defensive Team selection. Therefore, how Kevin Love made the list I'm not sure. Well spotted.

I don't understand why people refuse to rank the best defenders without splitting them into different categories, and yet people are perfectly happy to rank the best players ever irrespective of position.

So what difference does it make if we're looking at just the defensive end?

Kevin Love is an All-Time Great defender now? :wtf:

[QUOTE=RRR3]Kevin Love is an All-Time Great defender now? :wtf:[/QUOTE]

Please read two posts above yours.

Duncan
Pippen
Robinson
Jordan
Hakeem
Bowen
Wallace
Dikembe
Payton
Derek Harper

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]We're not gonna act like Oakley, Anthony Mason, Smith, Derek Harper, Starks didn't play for the Knicks, all good defenders, not like Zo in Miami or Deke in ATL where they basically were the defense (save Mookie and PJ Brown.)[/QUOTE]


Uh huh. That's why you put Oakley, Mason, Smith, Harper, and Starks on your list of other positions. :facepalm

[QUOTE=Sarcastic]Uh huh. That's why you put Oakley, Mason, Smith, Harper, and Starks on your list of other positions. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
I didn't just like I didn't put EWING . Ewing is next at number 11, though the bottom centers on my list could go either way.

Walt Frazier
Michael Cooper
Don Chaney
Bill Russell
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bruce Bowen
Maurice Cheeks
Gary Payton
Scottie Pippen
Sidney Moncrief
David Robinson
Rick Fox
Kevin McHale
Kevin Garnett
Bobby Jones
Ben Wallace
Michael Ray Richardson
Michael Jordan
Pat Ewing
Tim Duncan

Narrowing to 10:

Frazier
Hakeem
Bowen
Cooper
Wallace
Pippen
Moncrief
Robinson
Garnett
Duncan

Just my opinion...

EDIT: need to reevaluate

I used ---'s to divide into tiers, though perhaps there should be an extra --- between Russell and the second group (hard to separate defensive impact from rebounding). Walton probably knocks Rodman out if he plays for a longer period of time IMO.

I'm not trying to knock perimeter players, but I really can't put guys who aren't the anchoring the paint in the top 10 (the only reason Pip/Worm make it in is because the latter captained an elite defense for six championship runs, and the latter though he wasn't an anchor was probably one of the top couple of perimeter man defenders in league history while with Detroit, and an elite post defender, possibly all-time great, later on) in his career.

Lol at Ben Wallace being left out by most people.

[QUOTE=Clippersfan86]Lol at Ben Wallace being left out by most people.[/QUOTE]

I actually might remove Rodman for him...

[QUOTE=fpliii]Just my opinion...

1)Russell
---
2) Thurmond
3) Wilt
4) Hakeem
---
5) Robinson
6) Duncan
7) Garnett
8) Pippen
---
9) Ewing
10) Rodman

I used ---'s to divide into tiers, though perhaps there should be an extra --- between Russell and the second group (hard to separate defensive impact from rebounding). Walton probably knocks Rodman out if he plays for a longer period of time IMO.

I'm not trying to knock perimeter players, but I really can't put guys who aren't the anchoring the paint in the top 10 (the only reason Pip/Worm make it in is because the latter captained an elite defense for six championship runs, and the latter though he wasn't an anchor was probably one of the top couple of perimeter man defenders in league history while with Detroit, and an elite post defender, possibly all-time great, later on) in his career.[/QUOTE]

Why Pippen over Ewing?

No love for Michael cooper?

5

These are the 10 best defenders ive seen based on 3 categories (interior, perimeter and allround/versatility)

Hakeem Olajuwon, Dikembe Mutombo and David Robinson (there is a couple of more equally good paint defenders i feel i could replace their names with) i have to include because thats the best interior defense ive seen...

Gary Payton, Michael Jordan, Ron Artest and Bruce Bowen i have to include because they are the best perimeter defenders ive seen (in their prime ofcourse), ridicilous lateral quickness, hands, anticipation, relentless... simple as that.

Scottie Pippen, Lebron James and Dennis Rodman i have to include because they are by far the most versatile defenders ive seen, sure they were not the best interior defenders or perimeter defenders (Scottie has a case on that end tho) but when you combine their perimeter/interior and any type of defense (insane versatility as a result) was there anybody better overall/allround defenders that way and was there anybody who could do the things they did defensively (like lets say, defend up to five/all positions)? Think about it.

[QUOTE=oolalaa]Why Pippen over Ewing?[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, upon further thought perhaps I should swap them...here are the z-scores for their teams' DRtgs (relative to the league each season):

Pippen:

[B]87-88: -1.0[/B]
88-89: -0.9
89-90: +0.3
[B]90-91: -1.0[/B]
[B]91-92: -1.5[/B]
92-93: -0.7
[B]93-94: -1.0[/B]
[B]94-95: -1.4[/B]
[B]95-96: -1.9[/B]
[B]97-97: -1.2[/B]
[B]97-98: -1.4[/B]
98-99: +0.2
[B]99-00: -1.0[/B]
00-01: -0.4
01-02: -0.2
02-03: -0.4
03-04: +0.6

Ewing:

85-86: -0.7
86-87: +1.1
87-88: -0.6
88-89: -0.1
89-90: -0.0
90-91: -0.2
[B]91-92: -1.6[/B]
[B]92-93: -2.9[/B]
[B]93-94: -2.3[/B]
[B]94-95: -1.6[/B]
[B]95-96: -1.3[/B]
[B]96-97: -1.5[/B]
[B]97-98: -1.3[/B]
[B]98-99: -1.2[/B]
[B]99-00: -1.0[/B]
00-01: +0.9
01-02: +0.3

offhand I figured the difference was a lot closer, and planned to give it to Pip on the basis of versatility, but I think I need to switch them on my list. The only question is whether I need to bump Pippen down a tier (joining Rodman), or whether he can remain there.

[QUOTE=Miller for 3]Anyone that doesn't have David Robinson in their top 10 should be banned.[/QUOTE]

No shit. I saw Mutombo at 5th on someone's list and they even had honorable mentions and Robinson was nowhere to be seen. David Robinson shits all over Mutombo as a defensive player. It isn't even relatively close.

[QUOTE=fpliii]Hmmm, upon further thought perhaps I should swap them...here are the z-scores for their teams' DRtgs (relative to the league each season):

Pippen:

[B]87-88: -1.0[/B]
88-89: -0.9
89-90: +0.3
[B]90-91: -1.0[/B]
[B]91-92: -1.5[/B]
92-93: -0.7
[B]93-94: -1.0[/B]
[B]94-95: -1.4[/B]
[B]95-96: -1.9[/B]
[B]97-97: -1.2[/B]
[B]97-98: -1.4[/B]
98-99: +0.2
[B]99-00: -1.0[/B]
00-01: -0.4
01-02: -0.2
02-03: -0.4
03-04: +0.6

Ewing:

85-86: -0.7
86-87: +1.1
87-88: -0.6
88-89: -0.1
89-90: -0.0
90-91: -0.2
[B]91-92: -1.6[/B]
[B]92-93: -2.9[/B]
[B]93-94: -2.3[/B]
[B]94-95: -1.6[/B]
[B]95-96: -1.3[/B]
[B]96-97: -1.5[/B]
[B]97-98: -1.3[/B]
[B]98-99: -1.2[/B]
[B]99-00: -1.0[/B]
00-01: +0.9
01-02: +0.3

offhand I figured the difference was a lot closer, and planned to give it to Pip on the basis of versatility, but I think I need to switch them on my list. The only question is whether I need to bump Pippen down a tier (joining Rodman), or whether he can remain there.[/QUOTE]


88-92' probably had more to do with Jordan's defense than it did Pippen's - especially 88'. He was the defensive floor general and the team's best defender up until that point. 94' and 95' are arguably the two most impressive defensive seasons by a perimeter player ever though.

We also need to take into account the help that each player had. Pippen certainly had a lot of help early on with Jordan/Grant, and then later on with Jordan/Rodman/Harper, but Ewing probably still had the better end of that deal. Some of those Knicks teams had solid to great defenders at virtually every position.

[QUOTE=DatAsh]88-92' probably had more to do with Jordan's defense than it did Pippen's - especially 88'. He was the defensive floor general and the team's best defender up until that point. 94' and 95' are arguably the two most impressive defensive seasons by a perimeter player ever though.

[B]Agreed on all counts.[/B]

We also need to take into account the help that each player had. Pippen certainly had a lot of help early on with Jordan/Grant, and then later on with Jordan/Rodman/Harper, but Ewing probably still had the better end of that deal. Some of those Knicks teams had solid to great defenders at virtually every position.

[B]Also true.[/B][/QUOTE]

So given my criteria then, perhaps I should bump him down into the final tier. I also need to reevaluate Ben Wallace's impact, and decide what to do about Rodman.

BTW what are your thoughts on Kareem/Walton?

That I've seen since 1990:

Jordan
Pippen
Payton
Garnett
Hakeem
Rodman
Dumars
Duncan
Mutombo
D Robinson

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Scottie Pippen
3. Dennis Rodman
4. Kevin Garnett
5. LeBron James
6. Tim Duncan
7. Ben Wallace
8. David Robinson
9. Dwight Howard
10. Michael Jordan

(Not in order)

[QUOTE=WillC]I don't understand why people refuse to rank the best defenders without splitting them into different categories, and yet people are perfectly happy to rank the best players ever irrespective of position.

So what difference does it make if we're looking at just the defensive end?[/QUOTE]

That's a good question.

I think it just depends on the player.

Players like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird impact the offense very differently than Michael Jordan, Kobe, Iverson and Lebron. And Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, and Ewing impact the game differently than those guys too.

It's something that does not get talked about much. My guess is that defense is easier to separate than offense. Offense is more how many points can you score and defense is easier to see the different valuables in how it impacts the game.

At their best days(ordered by alphabetically);
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Patrick Ewing
Dikembe Mutombo
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Dennis Rodman
Bill Russell
Nate Thurmond
Ben Wallace
Bill Walton

The closest guard to make an impact of big man; Walt Frazier.

:roll: @ multiple people picking LeBron when he was a defensive liability for the first half of his career.

This forum sucks.

[QUOTE=Doranku]:roll: [B]@ multiple people picking LeBron when he was a defensive liability for the first half of his career.
[/B]
This forum sucks.[/QUOTE]
:biggums:

Kobe is top 10

Bigs: Rodman, Dream, Admiral, Duncan

Perimeter: Coop, Payton, Pippen

[QUOTE=Doranku]:roll: @ multiple people picking LeBron when he was a defensive liability for the first half of his career.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree.

He was "meh" until the 2008 Olympics, and the following 2009 season.

He's a versatile defender, but his actual "lock down" man defense skills are horrendously overrated. Specifically since 2011.

[QUOTE=LA Lakers]
Perimeter: Coop, Payton, Pippen[/QUOTE]
No Jordan? LOL ... right.

Nah, Definitely MJ too. oops

Everyone forgetting about Dennis Johnson as well Michael Cooper

[QUOTE=fpliii]So given my criteria then, perhaps I should bump him down into the final tier. I also need to reevaluate Ben Wallace's impact, and decide what to do about Rodman.

BTW what are your thoughts on Kareem/Walton?[/QUOTE]

I haven't entirely made up my mind on the Kareem/Walton debate. Walton sweeping Kareem doesn't mean as much to me as it seems to mean to others. Walton had the better team, and by a substantial margin. When you pile the Laker injuries on top of that, the sweep isn't all that surprising. I do think Walton was the slightly better player, but it's like splitting hairs to me.

As for their defense: both were excellent, Walton was slightly better, but not by much. I'm not sure I'd have either in my top 10. Walton would be there with better longevity, but top 10's always come with such stiff competition.

What I hate about these lists is that it will be flooded with big men, just because they're big. And that means I'm gonna see Kareem and even Shaq on lists, which is where the problem lies.

Tho I will say, making a list of the best defenders is not like making an all-time list, where you factor in the full career. A list like this has room for "He's the best I ever saw" and the like.

I don't know that I'd truly try to rank, so...

Russell, Hakeem, Robinson, Walton, Howard, Wilt, Thurmond, Garnett, Pippen, Jordan.


I think that's my 10.

Jason Terry