It really is a shame T-Mac didn't realize his true potential. However, it wasn't his fault Grant Hill got hurt and ruined anything the Magic thought they had.
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It really is a shame T-Mac didn't realize his true potential. However, it wasn't his fault Grant Hill got hurt and ruined anything the Magic thought they had.
[QUOTE=LoneyROY7]Wade averaged 30.2 ppg with 7.5 apg on 49.1 percent shooting in 08-09. Let's compare this to T-Mac's peak of 32.1 ppg with 5.5 apg on 45.7 percent shooting.
Wade was a better distributor at 2 more spg clip and he scored 2 less ppg, BUT did it at 3.4 percent more efficient clip...but offensively, it isn't close?
:facepalm
SMFH. Some people.[/QUOTE]
Did you even watch Tmac play or are you just looking up stats?
Wade can't even come off curls, can't go left, post on either side of the block, can't hit you with the 1,2 dribble pull up, etc.etc. etc.
Tmac also shot more 3pointers than Wade, and not necessarily because he was Kobe dumb, but because the defense harassed him like no player since MJ. He'd get doubled and triple teamed more frequently, than any player today, and he didn't have help to take away the pressure.
Tmac's height also helped him as a passer, he gave teams mismatch problems that Wade doesn't. Reason why he didn't average more assists is because he actually din't run point forward like Bron. His system was different, he played differently, but in the moments he did run the offense, he was just as good as Bron, setting up teammates, finding open men, making pin point laser like passes and he was just as willing/unselfish as Bron as well.
Kinda easy to dismiss Tmac now, but I remember even Riley saying how he was the closest to MJ at one point (or something similar).
Dwyane Wade is better. Really no reason to go in depth about it either. Wade is simply better.
If I needed to win one game, I'd want Wade over McGrady on my team anyday of the week. Twice on Sundays.
Only suckers for aesthetics would chose T-Mac over Wade.
[QUOTE] Wade can't even come off curls, can't go left, post on either side of the block, can't hit you with the 1,2 dribble pull up, etc.etc. etc. [/QUOTE]
My god. Just some straight up lies. All of them. :facepalm
[QUOTE=PJR]My god. Just some straight up lies. All of them. :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Too bad they're true.
[QUOTE=StateOfMind12]Wade puts up better numbers in the post-season and also Tmac was a player that struggled against the elite/better defenses in the league. Wade never had that problem as he always dominated every team regardless of how good they were defensively.[/QUOTE]
Defenses honed in on T-Mac far more intensely than they do Wade as he was viewed as a more potent offensive threat.
[QUOTE=andgar923]Did you even watch Tmac play or are you just looking up stats?
[B]Wade can't even come off curls[/B], can't go left, post on either side of the block, [B]can't hit you with the 1,2 dribble pull up[/B], etc.etc. etc.
Tmac also shot more 3pointers than Wade, and not necessarily because he was Kobe dumb, but because the defense harassed him like no player since MJ. He'd get doubled and triple teamed more frequently, than any player today, and he didn't have help to take away the pressure.
Tmac's height also helped him as a passer, he gave teams mismatch problems that Wade doesn't. Reason why he didn't average more assists is because he actually din't run point forward like Bron. His system was different, he played differently, but in the moments he did run the offense, he was just as good as Bron, setting up teammates, finding open men, making pin point laser like passes and he was just as willing/unselfish as Bron as well.
Kinda easy to dismiss Tmac now, but I remember even Riley saying how he was the closest to MJ at one point (or something similar).[/QUOTE]
He did do that. And he was better at coming off through screens back then with the catch and shoot. He didn't do it as often as the iso jumper, which did do a couple of dribbles and pull up in your face. I don't know where all of that went the following years. He didn't post up much back then, and I don't remember if he couldn't go to his left. I find it unusual that he couldn't though.
With that said though, T-Mac was better off the ball. Wade was basically the point guard of the team, so he had the ball mainly in his hands. Not as much as LeBron, but still more than T-Mac. And Wade was better at finishing at the rim than T-Mac, and didn't take as many 3s (cuz he sucked in comparison), and a bit better shot selection. This all contribute to his better FG%, but T-Mac was the better shooter.
And back then, Vince Carter, Kobe, T-Mac, Stackhouse, Iverson were all compared to Jordan and saying how they were the closest to MJ almost every year there was another player.
[QUOTE=HardwoodLegend]Defenses honed in on T-Mac far more intensely than they do Wade as he was viewed as a more potent offensive threat.[/QUOTE]
That's not true. They just couldn't stop Wade because he was too quick. The Celtics in 2010 with Paul Pierce said that they tried to stop Wade, but couldn't in the playoffs. In 2006, him and Shaq were the main threat and the Pistons couldn't stop either of them.
The Hawks had the athleticism to keep up with Wade, but he was dealing with back spasms that series.
[QUOTE=HardwoodLegend]Defenses honed in on T-Mac far more intensely than they do Wade as he was viewed as a more potent offensive threat.[/QUOTE]
Completely subjective. That statement can't be validated one way or the other.
This dude really said Wade has no two dribble pull-up? U gotta be shittin me.
That's a got damn patented move of Wade. Dudes on here lie with no shame. :oldlol:
Wade
ROFL @ Wade coming off curls.
The mufuhka just started doing that the past 2 years or so, and he aint nowhere as consistent as Tmac, let alone a threat.
His entire game is based on using picks WITH the ball, which is different than coming off curls. Wade has never been anywhere close to Tmac at playing off the ball, and he's only good with the ball when he's driving. His pull up at his best is still inconsistent and sloppy. Let alone having a 1-2 pull up dribble that Tmac had. Tmac would hit you with the pull up with ease from anywhere on the court, on any angle/position
tmac was more well rounded offensively, wade was more efficient and better at attacking the basket. Wade's defense is better, great shot blocker. Also wade is proven in the playoffs so I go with wade.
To be honest with you, when you talk about tmac in his prime it feels like it was so long ago back in his Orlando days. When he was with houston he was never as good as orlando tmac...So it's been roughly a decade since tmac's prime
hmmm
Dwyane Wade
[QUOTE=andgar923][B]ROFL @ Wade coming off curls.[/B]
The mufuhka just started doing that the past 2 years or so, and he aint nowhere as consistent as Tmac, let alone a threat.
[B]His entire game is based on using picks WITH the ball, which is different than coming off curls.[/B] Wade has never been anywhere close to Tmac at playing off the ball, and he's only good with the ball when he's driving.[B] His pull up at his best is still inconsistent and sloppy. Let alone having a 1-2 pull up dribble that Tmac had.[/B] Tmac would hit you with the pull up with ease from anywhere on the court, on any angle/position… simply deadly.[/QUOTE]
You didn't watch enough 2008-09 D-Wade then.
He did came off curls and had a catch and shoot move. But, he didn't do that as often as the 1-2 pull up dribble you are saying that he didn't have. The fact that you said he didn't have that and he was inconsistent that year about it, is evidence that you didn't watch him enough of Wade. After that year he was inconsistent, yeah. But not in that specific year. Where did it all go? I dunno.
You are right that he does dominate the ball, which he use picks with the ball. He did that a lot too. But not as much as LeBron and he was better off the ball than you what you are mentioning.
Peak TMac - better talent, better scoring, better defense, better overall player with no refs help..
Peak Wade - bf with the refs, love by the refs, help by the refs.. Wade without refs is nothing.. Refs made him the player he was.. D-Whistle..
I'm going to pick opposite to what andgar picked, purely because andgar actually came to that decision. Simply because he is wrong in 100% of these types of threads. By "these type of threads", I simply mean basketball threads. Hes retarded is what I'm trying to get at.
tmac .... its not even funny...
[QUOTE=Micku]You didn't watch enough 2008-09 D-Wade then.
He did came off curls and had a catch and shoot move. But, he didn't do that as often as the 1-2 pull up dribble you are saying that he didn't have. The fact that you said he didn't have that and he was inconsistent that year about it, is evidence that you didn't watch him enough of Wade. After that year he was inconsistent, yeah. But not in that specific year. Where did it all go? I dunno.
You are right that he does dominate the ball, which he use picks with the ball. He did that a lot too. But not as much as LeBron and he was better off the ball than you what you are mentioning.[/QUOTE]
Wade is my fav player.
:facepalm
I've seen plenty of Wade, probably more than anybody here. I know his game inside and out. He can do some of the things you guys claim he does, on a very limited basis, if and when he does do them.
His strengths are his speed and slashing.
When he's hot, he can get some shots off, but only when he's hot. What he does when he's hot, is the type of shit Tmac, Kobe, Melo and others did on an avg night. What made Wade special was his ability to explode and keep attacking while he was hot. Most players start taking long shots when they're hot, Wade would keep attacking.
One thing that I still hate about Wade is the fact that he goes to his left 98% of the time.
I started off by saying he's my fav player, I need to clarify that.
He USED to be my fav player. But he's frustrated me with his inability to improve, with his lack of focus and at times desire to play. I'm done screaming at the tv when he starts to feel down on himself, then start pumping his chest after a dunk trying to psych himself up.
[QUOTE=PJR]Dwyane Wade is better. Really no reason to go in depth about it either. Wade is simply better.
If I needed to win one game, I'd want Wade over McGrady on my team anyday of the week. Twice on Sundays.
Only suckers for aesthetics would chose T-Mac over Wade.[/QUOTE]
:roll:
[QUOTE=andgar923]Wade is my fav player.
:facepalm
I've seen plenty of Wade, probably more than anybody here. I know his game inside and out. He can do some of the things you guys claim he does, on a very limited basis, if and when he does do them.
His strengths are his speed and slashing.
When he's hot, he can get some shots off, but only when he's hot. What he does when he's hot, is the type of shit Tmac, Kobe, Melo and others did on an avg night. What made Wade special was his ability to explode and keep attacking while he was hot. Most players start taking long shots when they're hot, Wade would keep attacking. [/QUOTE]
What you say is inconsistent with his game in 2008-09 then. It makes me believe that you didn't see enough of him or you don't remember what he did that year.
You deny his pull range game and say it was inconsistent on the year he shot the best from midrange as evidence by the stats that I posted earlier in the thread. Very comparable to T-Mac's midrange game that year. Then you deny the style of play he used to have with his dribble up pull up game or his off the ball movement.
Back in that year, his mid-range was not inconsistent and he didn't just hit when he was hot either. He was almost automatic at the mid-range. Not only did he shot the most from midrange that year, his percentage was great. You can see it in almost all the basketball sites that records the % made/miss of which player shoot. His numbers was very comparable to T-Mac's 2002-03 year. It's actually better in the 10-15 feet. We can check it out now since we have the stats of how well they do from the mid-range game now. I wouldn't be surprise if Wade got most of his points from the midrange game back then. I haven't checked, but he took the most attempts from the midrange that year than any other season. And his % was very good.
Stats back up Wade's good mid-range game, but watching him play to see how he got them is another too. He did came off of curls and iso take a couple of dribbles and pull up into the defender face. He iso'd a whole lot more than he did the curls, and you say didn't do any of that stuff. I don't know what else to tell you other than he did.
I do agree T-Mac is better off the ball and is the better shooter overall though.
[QUOTE=HardwoodLegend]Did Dwyane Wade ever carry a weak squad past the 1st round by himself?[/QUOTE]
Nope.
Technically, neither did Kobe Bryant.
The only perimeter players to lead a weaker squad as underdog over another superior team was Michael Jordan and LeBron James.
Wow Andgar actually spitting truths here. Outside of cell phones, dude knows his stuff.
T-Mac was an offensive juggernaut. Just imagine a Durant that can dribble, dunk, more athletic, can post up, and all that. Better yet, just imagine a taller and longer Kobe.
[QUOTE=HardwoodLegend]Did Dwyane Wade ever carry a weak squad past the 1st round by himself?[/QUOTE]
He won a championship where he was the only one who was dominating.
[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]He won a championship where he was the only one who was dominating.[/QUOTE]
2005, Shaq was in a suit vs the Wizards
Wade didn't lose a game to Arenas til '08...I used to wish we could get the Wizards every year.
[QUOTE=Micku]Wade was a better defender, finisher, better playmaker, and had better shot selection.
T-Mac was a better scorer,[B] better ball handling skills[/B], more versatile, could move better off the ball. Could play PG, SG, SF.
I think peak Wade was better because his defense capability. Although peak T-Mac was more of a threat all areas of the floor, peak D-Wade was more efficient and had a mid range game in his peak.[/QUOTE]
:wtf: You are joking right? Tracy Mcgrady was a better ball handler than Dwyane Wade. What a god damn ****ing joke.
[QUOTE=Mr. Incredible]I'm baffled this was even asked. Wade is the clear answer. The guy had a greater will to win than McGrady ever had. If McGrady had a killer instinct, we'd be talking Hall of Fame here and a different answer to the question.[/QUOTE]
No he doesn't. Wade played with Shaq and Lebron. In the seasons after Shaq and before Lebron, prime Wade could not even win a playoff series...sound familiar? (Hint-Tmac, Kobe).
[QUOTE=Smoke117]:wtf: You are joking right? Tracy Mcgrady was a better ball handler than Dwyane Wade. What a god damn ****ing joke.[/QUOTE]
Either you don't remember or have never seen this commercial?
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiY67Z57FPU[/url]
"Where would I be without handles?! Game over EHNNNNNNT!"
[QUOTE=Smoke117]:wtf: You are joking right? Tracy Mcgrady was a better ball handler than Dwyane Wade. What a god damn ****ing joke.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jTaT3pYFE&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jTaT3pYFE&feature=related[/URL]
when has Wade done anything as impressive as that?
riddle me that
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V94-Ath0UUc[/url]
All I know is Wade can't throw the ball that far with that little effort.
[QUOTE=STATUTORY][URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jTaT3pYFE&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3jTaT3pYFE&feature=related[/URL]
when has Wade done anything as impressive as that?
riddle me that[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXT9VSh7YA0[/url]
When has McGrady done anything as impressive as this?
riddle me that
[QUOTE=PJR][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXT9VSh7YA0[/url]
When has McGrady done anything as impressive as this?
riddle me that[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-8FksMVAdU[/url]
When has Wade done anything as impressive as that?
riddle me that
Are people trying to argue McGrady is a better ballhandler? Really?
Wade was the one known for his deadly crossover. I can never remember that being mentioned as a big selling point about McGrady's game. Or that I myself was ever that impressed by it. Both have nice handles, but Wade is a class above.
[QUOTE=plowking]
Wade was the one known for his deadly crossover. I can never remember that being mentioned as a big selling point about McGrady's game. Or that I myself was ever that impressed by it. Both have nice handles, but Wade is a class above.[/QUOTE]
T-Mac had crazy handle, and a vicious crossover.
Wade is not a class above. Not like your biased or anything. :oldlol:
They are on the same level.
[QUOTE=Money 23]T-Mac had crazy handle, and a vicious crossover.
Wade is not a class above. Not like your biased or anything. :oldlol:
They are on the same level.[/QUOTE]
Nah. Tracy used to dribble the ball much higher, and was never as proficient as pulling off moves like Wade. I've seen Wade split double teams going through his legs, behind his back, etc. McGrady was never pulling that shit off.
[QUOTE=plowking]Nah. Tracy used to dribble the ball much higher, and was never as proficient as pulling off moves like Wade. I've seen Wade split double teams going through his legs, behind his back, etc. McGrady was never pulling that shit off.[/QUOTE]
He's had some impressive moves in his career... maybe not better than Wade, but relatively speaking he's right there when you take into account everything else.
Keep in mind that we're comparing 6'8 to 6'4. Players generally have weaker handles the taller they get.
[QUOTE=Micku]You can check the stats for it now actually.
[B]Wade in 2008-09:[/B]
10 to 15 ft- 44% FG
80 FG with 182 FGA
16 ft to 3-pt- 41.9% FG
255FG with 609 FGA
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/shooting/2009/[/url]
[B]T-Mac in 2002-03:[/B]
10 to 15 ft- 41.7% FG
78 FG with 187 FGA
16 ft to 3-pt- 43.6 % FG
282 FG with 647 FGA
[url]http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01/shooting/2003/[/url]
As the stats show, peak Wade was close to T-Mac. Virtually equal. It just that Wade was a better finisher and T-Mac was the better 3pt and FT shooter.
But you can defend players better back then than now, so that accounts for something too. Probably driving to the basket. Still doesn't change the fact that Wade was a killer with his midrange j though.[/QUOTE]
That's a very flawed argument. Its like saying Lebron is a better shooter than kobe because he shoots better %s from midrange. It might be true, but it's not because he's a better shooter. It's because players give him room while defending, while people really haven't respected Kobe much as a slasher since 08.
[QUOTE=magnax1]That's a very flawed argument. Its like saying Lebron is a better shooter than kobe because he shoots better %s from midrange. It might be true, but it's not because he's a better shooter. It's because players give him room while defending, while people really haven't respected Kobe much as a slasher since 08.[/QUOTE]
1. How is this a flawed argument? This is nothing but facts. If I post the 3pt shot and player A > player B in %, then player A just shot better from the 3pt land.
2. For the defense issue, Wade was not only the leading scorer on his team, but in the whole league that season. After a few games you would think teams would have scouts say "Hey, this guy Wade improved on his midrange. D him up."
The biggest problem about guarding Wade that season was that he was a great slasher, finisher, and close to automatic at mid range. How can you guard a person that could not only beat you off the dribble, use picks, and shoot a mid-range J to your face. It was difficult. They had to send help. Which they did if you watched him play that season, but Wade was also a good passer and playmaker.
People also said that Shaq freed him up, which is why he shot a very high percentage from the field. But at that year, he was great at attacking the rim and mid-range. And he did it at a consistent basis throughout the 79 games that he played.
3. I never said that Wade was the better shooter, because you have to take into account the the 3pt shooting and FTs too. Wade sucks at the 3pt shot while T-Mac was much better. And T-Mac was a bit better with FTs. However, you can be very good at the mid-range game, but not be a good 3pt shooter.
Some players have good years at certain areas, but won't be as good at it in other years. This was the case with Wade. He was very good that year, but never been as good since. And since this is about peak Wade vs peak T-mac, then you have to mention his mid-range j. Just like if you mention peak Kobe, or peak Dirk, or Duncan. They did things much better in their peaks than later on their careers like you mention. In Wade's case it was his mid-range game. I see nothing wrong or flawed about it.
[QUOTE=plowking]Nah. Tracy used to dribble the ball much higher, and was never as proficient as pulling off moves like Wade. I've seen Wade split double teams going through his legs, behind his back, etc. McGrady was never pulling that shit off.[/QUOTE]
Nope ... try again, kiddo.
Your homerism knows no bounds though, does it? You can't admit you might be tad biased or having an agenda here?
T-Mac didn't dribble the ball much higher. Stop talking like you know what you're talking about. You probably weren't even a fan at the time, your baby nuts were in Australia watching rugby with your father.
I've seen McGrady split doubles too, so please just don't. They both have handle. To even act like Wade is a tier above is beyond ridiculous.
Wade's signature move isn't even the crossover, it's the pull back between the legs after the crossover. You don't even know your favorite player's most devastating move.
I don't expect then in turn for you to know what you're talking about in regards to McGrady. Or anyone else for that matter.
Watch and learn ... [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4XH1cnvho[/url]
Where is he dribbling high in that clip? In fact, he's dribbling extremely low. Especially considering Wade is closer to the ground at 6'3 / 6'4 and Mac is in the 6'8 / 6'9 border line 6'10 range given his length.
It's more than obvious in regards to this conversation a) you have an agenda, b) you don't know what you're talking about and c) you have a Wade jersey on right now.
Stop being a kum dump for Miami Heat basketball, and be objective.
Wade and Mac on the same level of elite ball handling skills. Both are superstars that saw constant double teams and still used their handle to create for themselves and their teammates.
:coleman:
[QUOTE=Money 23]Nope ... try again, kiddo.
Your homerism knows no bounds though, does it? You can't admit you might be tad biased or having an agenda here?[/QUOTE]
Everyone is biased. Its an opinion. Its biased from the get go.
[QUOTE]T-Mac didn't dribble the ball much higher. Stop talking like you know what you're talking about. You probably weren't even a fan at the time, your baby nuts were in Australia watching rugby with your father.[/QUOTE]
Yes he did. He was/is still one of my favorite players. I wasn't born in Australia... So I didn't grow up watching rugby.
[QUOTE]I've seen McGrady split doubles too, so please just don't. They both have handle. To even act like Wade is a tier above is beyond ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
A lot of players have split doubles. Wade is probably the best ever at it. Put that in with his combinations of how he does it, and its ridiculous.
[QUOTE]Wade's signature move isn't even the crossover, it's the pull back between the legs after the crossover. You don't even know your favorite player's most devastating move.[/QUOTE]
The pullback between the legs is still a crossover move... You don't know basic basketball if that's the case then.
[QUOTE]I don't expect then in turn for you to know what you're talking about in regards to McGrady. Or anyone else for that matter.
Watch and learn ... [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4XH1cnvho[/url]
[/QUOTE]
Nice crossover on Robert Traylor, the 300lbs guy.
[QUOTE]Where is he dribbling high in that clip? In fact, he's dribbling extremely low. Especially considering Wade is closer to the ground at 6'3 / 6'4 and Mac is in the 6'8 / 6'9 border line 6'10 range given his length.[/QUOTE]
Of course. A 20 second clip to explain everything. I'm guessing McGrady missed every shot in his career too? If that is what you're using as evidence for his whole career, I will gladly say Wade was a far superior shooter than too. And a better scorer, since McGrady didn't score a point.
[QUOTE]It's more than obvious in regards to this conversation a) you have an agenda, b) you don't know what you're talking about and c) you have a Wade jersey on right now.[/QUOTE]
a) I don't. Its my opinion. My biased opinion. Just like anyone's is.
b) I clearly do. McGrady and Hardaway are the only two Orlando players I've ever liked and closely watched.
c) No. Its in the wardrobe. I might bust out the jersey later.
[QUOTE]Stop being a kum dump for Miami Heat basketball, and be objective.
Wade and Mac on the same level of elite ball handling skills. Both are superstars that saw constant double teams and still used their handle to create for themselves and their teammates.
:coleman:[/QUOTE]
McGrady is one of my favorite players, and while he did have an aesthetically pleasing game, that one season of his gets overrated. I remember watching back then, and I don't ever remember thinking he was as good as Kobe that season, like many on here like to claim now, 10 years later.