Kobe's legacy if Lakers don't make playoffs?

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]The only law I know is "Jack Murphy's law." It's very simple. Don't **** with Jack Murphy. You remember that.

:cheers:[/QUOTE]

:cheers: Wasn't sure anyone would get that reference. Didn't know how many here watch Charles Bronson's movies.

Then again, he even did a movie with Mike Dunleavy.

[IMG]http://images3.cinema.de/imedia/5198/1765198,yp+T7PMY5lKvdiJRNP2232rRcIxVh8A_S7N9IsWuz4QEwaEPZZrjpU+rJbihmueTTpJCTKIusJ0qmDEDRKo4WA==.jpg[/IMG]

You can debate all you want, 20 years from now people will only remember Kobe + 3 all stars not making playoffs.

It hurts Howard's way more than Kobe's. Doesn't hurt Kobe at all.

I think it will hurt how people view his leadership skills. And I agreed with what Van Gundy said, that despite how good he's playing, he should sacrifice a few shots to let Howard get going.

Another thing that hurts him is that it looks as if Kobe is more concern about breaking that all times points record. Perhaps he sees younger Lebron and Durant being ahead than he was when he was their age, and he wants to secure it.

[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]It hurts Howard's way more than Kobe's. Doesn't hurt Kobe at all.[/QUOTE]

This. The only difference from this the team last year is replacing Bynum with Dwight and an upgrade at the PG position. Who's really hurting the Lakers?

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]Yep, it is amazing. It's like Murphy's Law, didn't they know not to f[SIZE="2"]u[/SIZE]ck with Jack Murphy?

[IMG]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2147/5734505789_4551a67779_o.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]


By the way they are planning a Magnificent Seven Remake. Tom Hardy as Bernardo O'Reilly (Charles Bronson's character in the movie) sounds cool.

the trolls are strong in this thread.

[QUOTE=longtime lurker]This. The only difference from this the team last year is replacing Bynum with Dwight and an upgrade at the PG position. Who's really hurting the Lakers?[/QUOTE]

I think it does hurt Dwight's legacy, but I don't think it's that simple. The Lakers wouldn't be any better with Bynum, imo, in fact, I could see them being even worse. Bynum would certainly be unhappy with shots in this system which would make it unlikely he'd play defense consistently. Plus, Bynum trying to run in D'Antoni's system doesn't sound good at all, and a D'Antoni defense that hasn't worked with Dwight sounds just laughable with Bynum's mobility. I truly believe that D'Antoni is the biggest reason they've underachieved so much.

[QUOTE=Lebron23]By the way they are planning a Magnificent Seven Remake. Tom Hardy as Bernardo Reilly (Charles Bronson's character in the movie) sounds cool.[/QUOTE]

Really? I loved the original. I'm not a big fan of remakes, but I'll check it out if it comes out.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I think it does hurt Dwight's legacy, but I don't think it's that simple. The Lakers wouldn't be any better with Bynum, imo, in fact, I could see them being even worse. Bynum would certainly be unhappy with shots in this system which would make it unlikely he'd play defense consistently. Plus, Bynum trying to run in D'Antoni's system doesn't sound good at all, and a D'Antoni defense that hasn't worked with Dwight sounds just laughable with Bynum's mobility. I truly believe that D'Antoni is the biggest reason they've underachieved so much.



Really? I loved the original. I'm not a big fan of remakes, but I'll check it out if it comes out.[/QUOTE]

The Original Magnificent 7 is still the best western film of all time.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0vqQjaXLOU[/url] I love the theme song of this movie.

Tom Cruise, Matt Damon, Morgan Freeman, and Kevin Costner will be in the remake. I love to see Javier Bardem as Calvera.

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I think it does hurt Dwight's legacy, but I don't think it's that simple. The Lakers wouldn't be any better with Bynum, imo, in fact, I could see them being even worse. Bynum would certainly be unhappy with shots in this system which would make it unlikely he'd play defense consistently. Plus, Bynum trying to run in D'Antoni's system doesn't sound good at all, and a D'Antoni defense that hasn't worked with Dwight sounds just laughable with Bynum's mobility. I truly believe that D'Antoni is the biggest reason they've underachieved so much.[/QUOTE]

Well I only said that half heartedly, but I think Dwight's whole attitude is killing the team. The thing with Bynum is that he'll give you way better offense than Dwight and he can hit his free throws. Bynum, Kobe and Pau already have chemisty together which is another reason the new look Lakers are struggling. They were a 3rd seed last year with a horrible bench and PG play I can't really see them being worse than 5th with a healthy Bynum which again might not lead to Brown getting fired. So the system issue might be irrelevant. Defensively they'd still need work but right now I don't see Dwight being a strong defensive presence outside of a few highlight real blocks.

If Kobe retired after 2012 playoffs 2nd round exit, would his legacy be better than if he still plays in 2013 but with bad results?

If Kobe retired right after winning his 5th championship in 2010, would his legacy be even better?



The point is, no matter how bad Kobe performs now and in the future, he's legacy will only improve, but not deteriorate.

The number of MVP award he received will only increase, or remain.
The number of championships he won will only increase, or remain.
The number of FMVP awards he received will only increase, or remain.
The number of All-NBA teams selections he was in will only increase, or remain.
The number of All-star games selections he was in will only increase, or remain.
His career total minutes played, games played, ttotal points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks will only increase.
His per-game stats and percentage stats like FG% may drop, but the drop won't be sharp seeing how much time he has played and how little time he has left to play.

That is to say, As long as he still plays, his legacy will not be hurt, but improve rather.

[QUOTE=andgar923]Kobe has never and will never be a good leader, end of story.

There's more to being a leader than simply scoring and telling your teammates to put on "big boy pants".

He doesn't hold himself accountable, his teammates clearly don't respect him as much as he thinks or others perceive him to be.

Like some, Kobe's got carried to rings on the backs of bigs and refs. Great talent errr

[QUOTE=longtime lurker]Well I only said that half heartedly, but I think Dwight's whole attitude is killing the team. The thing with Bynum is that he'll give you way better offense than Dwight and he can hit his free throws. Bynum, Kobe and Pau already have chemisty together which is another reason the new look Lakers are struggling. They were a 3rd seed last year with a horrible bench and PG play I can't really see them being worse than 5th with a healthy Bynum which again might not lead to Brown getting fired. So the system issue might be irrelevant. Defensively they'd still need work but right now I don't see Dwight being a strong defensive presence outside of a few highlight real blocks.[/QUOTE]

Bynum and Pau never really had chemistry, imo. When the Lakers were winning titles, it was more Odom/Gasol as the big men. It was always either Bynum or Pau playing well, almost never at the same time. The one time they were really working well together was post all-star break in 2011 when Bynum was just a finisher offensively, and focusing on defense and rebounding. He was literally the 5th option. Even Phil said after last season that establishing Bynum offensively really takes Pau out of the game.

I think a 1-4 start could have been possible regardless. While I don't think Brown was the right coach, I think they fired him way too early, and should have just waited until they were either in a hole around new years, or if they had another second round exit, after the season. There still would have been the problem of the princeton offense. And Nash wasn't going to be much of an impact player in Brown's offense with either Bynum or Howard. There's too many players who need the ball, and all of their games don't fit together.

I'm not sure the defense would(or could) be much worse, but I don't see it being better with Bynum. As far as attitude, well, I don't think Bynum is much better in that department. Bynum may look better offensively than Howard has this year, but I don't think the results would be much different. Bynum really is one of the bigger black holes, and in a D'Antoni system, his post game wouldn't be a big factor. Even without D'Antoni, with Bynum posting up and Kobe getting his shots, I see Pau struggling and Nash being far less of a factor.

I don't think a 5th seed with Bynum in Dwight's place would be remotely possible.

I really think Pau is deadweight at this point. The only way I see the Lakers turning it around in the summer is to get rid of Pau and D'Antoni somehow

It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.

It wouldn't hurt it at all. You guys are acting like Nash wasn't out for 20 games. Dwight wasn't hurt and playing like shit. While now hes not even playing.

[QUOTE=Nash]It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.[/QUOTE]

Are you retarded?

Kobe's legacy is set in stone. He's a consensus top 10 player of all time. He's already proven everything. This season does absolutely nothing to change that. Sorry.

Also, LOL at comparing Hakeem to Dwight. Howard hasn't even been the best center this year. Not to mention it's an unbelievably weak era for centers. Hakeem was on a completely different level.

somewhere between michael jordan and darius morris

[QUOTE=Rockets(T-mac)]His legacy won't really be diminished, he has played well, and the lakers problems stem from other causes. His defense has been bad yes, but to pin the defensive disasters the lakers have had on just kobe is retarded. He hasn't been good, but nor has most of the team and not to mention the coaching.

To me he has always been in the 8-10 range all time so I don't think that'll change much at all.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=Nash]It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.[/QUOTE]
It would be like Shaq joining lebron.. Or the Celtics after their finals run.. Or Barkley with drexler and hakeem.. Or Chris Webber joining the Pistons.. Or Jason Kidd joining the current Knicks.. Or Gary payton and Karl Malone joining prime kobe and Shaq.. Shall I go on?

It improves. A mike Dantoni team shouldn't have any wins at all, kobe has given the team a few. anything better than 0-82 adds to kobes legacy.

And the fact no other superstar had to deal with the 2 worst coaches of all time in the same year. Every Lakers win this year is a gem.

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Are you retarded?

Kobe's legacy is set in stone. He's a consensus top 10 player of all time. He's already proven everything. This season does absolutely nothing to change that. Sorry.

Also, LOL at comparing Hakeem to Dwight. Howard hasn't even been the best center this year. Not to mention it's an unbelievably weak era for centers. Hakeem was on a completely different level.[/QUOTE]
well it does prove Kobe is a system player somewhat right?

34 yrs old. 17th season. 52,000+ minutes. Still putting up 30/5/5/2 on excellent efficiency. Playing 40+ minutes a night.

Won't hurt his legacy at all. If anything, the fact that he's still playing at this level will be a boost to his legacy.

[QUOTE=HorryIsMyMVP]well it does prove Kobe is a system player somewhat right?[/QUOTE]
Kobe's the opposite of a system player.. Haters will argue he breaks systems on purpose just to get his own.

how would it hurt his legacy? he's the best player in the world playing on garbage ass team filled with big names who play like scrubs. not his fault.

[QUOTE=HorryIsMyMVP]well it does prove Kobe is a system player somewhat right?[/QUOTE]

Most all time greats, in all team sports, have benefited from certain systems. How much success did Jordan have without Phil Jackson? Then you have Duncan, who has played for one of the greatest coaches in sports for his entire career. Shaq won 4 rings with two legendary coaches. Different sport, but Tom Brady has definitely benefited from Belichick's system.

He's averaging 30-5-5 on 58TS/52EFG. 9 of there losses came when he scored 35+, and 4 losses came when he scored 40+. He's leading the league in scoring while in his 17th season. Nobody has ever led the league in scoring in their 17th season. No guard in his 17th+ season has ever averaged over 15 ppg, and Kobe is doubling that right now. Also, like Shaqattack mentioned, this doesn't take away his 5 rings.

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Most all time greats, in all team sports, have benefited from certain systems. How much success did Jordan have without Phil Jackson? Then you have Duncan, who has played for one of the greatest coaches in sports for his entire career. Shaq won 4 rings with two legendary coaches. Different sport, but Tom Brady has definitely benefited from Belichick's system.[/QUOTE]
So pretty much it was all Phil Jackson?

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I think his legacy is pretty safe with the 5 rings and more than a dozen years of great play. This extremely disappointing season doesn't erase those years and rings. Besides, I don't see why people would look at Kobe given how he's played and place the blame on him given all of the other obvious factors.[/QUOTE]QFT...

Is like saying Lebron's legacy would be tarnished because he joined two other stars in their prime because he couldn't win by himself?

Nobody can win by themselves, everybody in the team of basketball need to play with other people, and if those people are not good enough you're not going to win.

[QUOTE=tpols]Kobe's the opposite of a system player.. Haters will argue he breaks systems on purpose just to get his own.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but the triangle negates that because it's a system of predicting where Kobe's misses are going to bounce to and getting the rebound.

Wut.

[QUOTE=HorryIsMyMVP]Yeah but the triangle negates that because it's a system of predicting where Kobe's misses are going to bounce to and getting the rebound.[/QUOTE]

:roll:

[QUOTE=Nash]It hurts Kobe because he's the only one of the 4 stars that has a legacy to protect.

It would be like Jordan in 1997 joining up with Hakeem(Dwight best center in the NBA) + 2 other stars and missing the playoffs. If that happened for Jordan, it would be a HUGE negative in his career.[/QUOTE]

I think this is a good way to look at it. How would Jordan be perceived now if that happened. Would his overall aura be less now in the average person's mind?

[QUOTE=HorryIsMyMVP]It wouldn't hurt it at all. You guys are acting like Nash wasn't out for 20 games. Dwight wasn't hurt and playing like shit. While now hes not even playing.[/QUOTE]

Injuries happen all the time, the difference here is that the Lakers still have a lot of talent to be a playoff team without Nash.

[QUOTE=tpols]It would be like Shaq joining lebron.. Or the Celtics after their finals run.. Or Barkley with drexler and hakeem.. Or Chris Webber joining the Pistons.. Or Jason Kidd joining the current Knicks.. Or Gary payton and Karl Malone joining prime kobe and Shaq.. Shall I go on?[/QUOTE]

All those you mentioned made the playoff.

[QUOTE=tpols][B]Kobe's the opposite of a system player[/B].. Haters will argue he breaks systems on purpose just to get his own.[/QUOTE]

This is true.

[QUOTE=HorryIsMyMVP]Yeah but the triangle negates that because it's a system of predicting where Kobe's misses are going to bounce to and getting the rebound.[/QUOTE]
What?

I don't think you know what a system player is.. People can argue amare is a system player that can only thrive in a high octane PnR offense.. People can argue rip Hamilton was a system player that can only thrive on a team with a lot of off ball screening and passing aka equal opportunity offense. A system m player is someone whose game can only excel when they are given the ball in certain situations.

Kobe is the ultimate iso, freelance basketball player.. The exact opposite of what you're saying.

[QUOTE=tpols]What?

I don't think you know what a system player is.. People can argue amare is a system player that can only thrive in a high octane PnR offense.. People can argue rip Hamilton was a system player that can only thrive on a team with a lot of off ball screening and passing aka equal opportunity offense. A system m player is someone whose game can only excel when they are given the ball in certain situations.

Kobe is the ultimate iso, freelance basketball player.. The exact opposite of what you're saying.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying the only reason that Kobe is successful is because of Phil Jackson's coaching and reducing the negative effects of Kobe's chucking. Phil still had his frustrations but it is true that Phil would draw up plays to get offensive rebounds. They anticipated Kobe to miss and this was the recipe to championships. Now Kobe has to be a leader and his team just expects him to make shots. Therefor hes not gonna make the play off's.

[QUOTE=HorryIsMyMVP] They anticipated Kobe to miss and this was the recipe to championships. Now Kobe has to be a leader and his team just expects him to make shots. Therefor hes not gonna make the play off's.[/QUOTE]
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

There is absolutely nothing Kobe can do at this stage of his career to deduct from his all time ranking. He has reached that point where he can only add to his greatness.

[QUOTE=HorryIsMyMVP]I'm saying the only reason that Kobe is successful is because of Phil Jackson's coaching and reducing the negative effects of Kobe's chucking. Phil still had his frustrations but it is true that Phil would draw up plays to get offensive rebounds. They anticipated Kobe to miss and this was the recipe to championships. Now Kobe has to be a leader and his team just expects him to make shots. Therefor hes not gonna make the play off's.[/QUOTE]
This is absolute nonsense. :oldlol:

[QUOTE=noob cake]Kobe has been constantly ranked as a top 4-10 player, I personally think he is around top 15-20.[/QUOTE]
Top 4 - 10? I'm pretty sure only the 'stans have him in the top 5.

I have him in the 11 - 15 range.

[QUOTE=tpols]This is absolute nonsense. :oldlol:[/QUOTE]
is it? IS IT REALLY?!

[QUOTE=Heavincent]Are you retarded?

Kobe's legacy is set in stone. He's a consensus top 10 player of all time. He's already proven everything. This season does absolutely nothing to change that. Sorry.

Also, LOL at comparing Hakeem to Dwight. Howard hasn't even been the best center this year. Not to mention it's an unbelievably weak era for centers. Hakeem was on a completely different level.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying people will forget about what he has done, but he sure as hell doesn't want to be involved in missing the playoffs playing with these guys. As I said before, missing the playoffs with Nash, Gasol and Howard is a bigger feat than winning the championship.

And it doesn't really matter if Hakeem or Howard is better, that's not the point. Both Hakeem and Dwight were on top of the food chain, they were the best centers in their time.